Questions for both sides

[Sanafa]

This will not make me popular but I am interested in both sides and hopefully we can shed light on some of the common cliches.

 

 

Our DDay ( to clarify I am the OW) was about 6 weeks ago and since then I have immersed myself with reading both sides, trying to understand both sides and starting the road of asking myself why I found myself in this situation.

 

Most will not believe me, but I have never been in a R with a MM prior to this and had no desire to cause the destruction that did happen with Discovery ( yes, I know I am still responsible). With all the reading and all the boards I still have a difficult time not wanting to play devil's advocate (for all three involved) so hopefully we can discuss without bashing.

 

Fog-

 

Depending on what board you refer to this predominately is in reference to the WS that they were apparently feeling during the affair.

 

Is it not possible that they actually knew what they were doing?

 

That they did have a clear understanding?

 

Is it even remotely possible that the fog is actually the weeks/months following DDay when guilt, shame and in some situations threats are being thrown about at record speed. The decision the WS makes during that time (either to stay or go )must be clouded, far too many emotions for it not be.

 

Is it not far more rational to say that for all three the Fog is after DDay when all parties have there lives turned upside ( some more deserving than others, I get that)

 

Judgement on the OW

 

For having such low self respect to have an affair. Could many not turn that around and say the BS has just as little? I was never lied to, in my situation he didn't pretend he would leave and we both knew why that was. But for so many BS to call the OW/OM unconfident, needy, etc is that not hypicritical?

 

Both the OW/OM and the BS often go to the ends of the earth for the Cheating MM so is one really better than the other?

 

And finally ( for now) is it even remotely possible that the MM/MW was doing the best they could?

 

Is it possible that they still love and thier choice to go outside the marriage while wrong may have been at the time thier way of doing the right thing? Many people love each other without having chemistry but as humans being loved, being intimate is a need.

 

So, if all is ok with the family core ( they are still friends, still have sex occassionally) is it even remotely possible that instead of the "cake and have it to theory" they are actually trying to be honorable and maintain the commitment they took while choosing to have their basic needs met as well?

 

Not taking sides, throwing some of the many thoughts out there that I have had the last week or so.

 

BS or AP - many use manipulating and threatening tactics to stay involved either in the marriage or the affair.... why is one better than the other?

[Chrome Barracuda]

WTF??? What part of MARRIED dont you understand?

 

Was there no other single men out in the streets to sleep with? cause clearly from what you wrote your not sorry for doing what your doing. So if you caught a STD or got the stuffing beat out of you you'd learn then?

 

..and no im not bitter but very logical and it makes no sense for a woman to go with a married man and think it's a relationship to be proud of while he's still with his wife. That's just plain wrong...

 

and that's where i stand.

[Sanafa]

WTF??? What part of MARRIED dont you understand?

 

Was there no other single men out in the streets to sleep with? cause clearly from what you wrote your not sorry for doing what your doing. So if you caught a STD or got the stuffing beat out of you you'd learn then?

 

..and no im not bitter but very logical and it makes no sense for a woman to go with a married man and think it's a relationship to be proud of while he's still with his wife. That's just plain wrong...

 

and that's where i stand.

 

I was not the one married... he was, his commitment. Regardless, like I said I don't want this to become bashing so if you have a logical question, I am happy to answer.

 

Why?

 

At the time it was simple, I am busy, didn't want a full-time relationship and had no desire to hurt anyone ( Not saying I didn't) and I also said * if I knew then what I know now.

 

No remorse? That's a stretch, you don't know me and I certainly feel and felt bad for everyone involved, far more for his W than you would be capable of understanding.

 

I was and am asking unemotional questions, which includes attempting to keep my emotions out of it so I can actually understand all sides.

 

"stuffing beat out of you", not sure where you're from but I wouldn't be involved with anyone that handled a situation in that manner.

[Chrome Barracuda]

I was not the one married... he was, his commitment. Regardless, like I said I don't want this to become bashing so if you have a logical question, I am happy to answer.

 

Why?

 

At the time it was simple, I am busy, didn't want a full-time relationship and had no desire to hurt anyone ( Not saying I didn't) and I also said * if I knew then what I know now.

 

No remorse? That's a stretch, you don't know me and I certainly feel and felt bad for everyone involved, far more for his W than you would be capable of understanding.

 

I was and am asking unemotional questions, which includes attempting to keep my emotions out of it so I can actually understand all sides.

 

"stuffing beat out of you", not sure where you're from but I wouldn't be involved with anyone that handled a situation in that manner.

 

But your an active interlope in their marriage. You was invited by proxy into his life and by extension his marriage make no assumptions about it. You are just as guilty. Your one of those people that is an accomplice and say oh I was just following orders. Give me a break!

 

Oh wait you was busy! Let's reschedule no time for sleeping with single men who want nothing to get into your draws like married men? WTF is you smoking lady.Plenty of single men dont want LTR's You did this because you wanted to.

Yeah no remorse because you feel so bad and yet you slept with this man. Oh im playing the smallest violin for your pain.

 

Emotions uninvolved I'm sure his wife would love to hear that.

 

Yeah stuffing beat outta you, your not so high up you cant get caught. You dont know how his wife will react WHEN she finds out. And aint no amount of excuses gonna get you outta your current predicament.

 

Bottom line you havent owned anything you have done. Why am I even wasting my time talking to some woman who cant even keep her legs closed and do the right thing. Oh wait she was busy. My bad.

[Sanafa]

But your an active interlope in their marriage. You was invited by proxy into his life and by extension his marriage make no assumptions about it. You are just as guilty. Your one of those people that is an accomplice and say oh I was just following orders. Give me a break!

 

Oh wait you was busy! Let's reschedule no time for sleeping with single men who want nothing to get into your draws like married men? WTF is you smoking lady.Plenty of single men dont want LTR's You did this because you wanted to.

Yeah no remorse because you feel so bad and yet you slept with this man. Oh im playing the smallest violin for your pain.

 

Emotions uninvolved I'm sure his wife would love to hear that.

 

Yeah stuffing beat outta you, your not so high up you cant get caught. You dont know how his wife will react WHEN she finds out. And aint no amount of excuses gonna get you outta your current predicament.

 

Bottom line you havent owned anything you have done. Why am I even wasting my time talking to some woman who cant even keep her legs closed and do the right thing. Oh wait she was busy. My bad.

 

Wow, is there an ignore button here...not only rude but can't read either.

 

We had our DDay and are apart....

 

And like I said not sure where you are from, but we don't pull each others hair here and call each other names.....course I am starting to understand why that would be your theory, perhaps some experience?

[Chrome Barracuda]

Wow, is there an ignore button here...not only rude but can't read either.

 

We had our DDay and are apart....

 

And like I said not sure where you are from, but we don't pull each others hair here and call each other names.....course I am starting to understand why that would be your theory, perhaps some experience?

 

Oh ive read perfectly and you know where i stand bottom line it's wrong and that's it.

 

Congradulations! you are apart. Oh I'm sorry I didnt know you could be apart from a man who's already MARRIED!

 

Oh and dont worry aint no woman worth it in life for me to be fighting over but where im from i seen it happen more often than once and to tell you the truth I cant blame anyone for whipping an OW/OM's a$$. I'm sorry but some people are just not civil. ignore me if you want I dont care.

[SidLyon]

This will not make me popular but I am interested in both sides and hopefully we can shed light on some of the common cliches.

 

 

Our DDay ( to clarify I am the OW) was about 6 weeks ago and since then I have immersed myself with reading both sides, trying to understand both sides and starting the road of asking myself why I found myself in this situation.

 

Most will not believe me, but I have never been in a R with a MM prior to this and had no desire to cause the destruction that did happen with Discovery ( yes, I know I am still responsible). With all the reading and all the boards I still have a difficult time not wanting to play devil's advocate (for all three involved) so hopefully we can discuss without bashing.

 

Fog-

 

Depending on what board you refer to this predominately is in reference to the WS that they were apparently feeling during the affair.

 

Is it not possible that they actually knew what they were doing?

 

That they did have a clear understanding?

 

Is it even remotely possible that the fog is actually the weeks/months following DDay when guilt, shame and in some situations threats are being thrown about at record speed. The decision the WS makes during that time (either to stay or go )must be clouded, far too many emotions for it not be.

 

Is it not far more rational to say that for all three the Fog is after DDay when all parties have there lives turned upside ( some more deserving than others, I get that)

 

Judgement on the OW

 

For having such low self respect to have an affair. Could many not turn that around and say the BS has just as little? I was never lied to, in my situation he didn't pretend he would leave and we both knew why that was. But for so many BS to call the OW/OM unconfident, needy, etc is that not hypicritical?

 

Both the OW/OM and the BS often go to the ends of the earth for the Cheating MM so is one really better than the other?

 

And finally ( for now) is it even remotely possible that the MM/MW was doing the best they could?

 

Is it possible that they still love and thier choice to go outside the marriage while wrong may have been at the time thier way of doing the right thing? Many people love each other without having chemistry but as humans being loved, being intimate is a need.

 

So, if all is ok with the family core ( they are still friends, still have sex occassionally) is it even remotely possible that instead of the "cake and have it to theory" they are actually trying to be honorable and maintain the commitment they took while choosing to have their basic needs met as well?

 

Not taking sides, throwing some of the many thoughts out there that I have had the last week or so.

 

BS or AP - many use manipulating and threatening tactics to stay involved either in the marriage or the affair.... why is one better than the other?

 

My response:

 

1. I too can can see the "affair fog" as 2 things; the first is the obsession the WS has with the AP in the early days. The second is the confusion and/or devastation that everyone experiences post d-day. So I guess I agree with you here. Although when both are happening at the same time they really are quite mixed up.

 

2. As you've suggested there is judgment leveled at the married person and the OW/OM for having the affair. I'm not sure what sort of negative judgment can be leveled against the BS - do you mean for making an unfortunate choice in who they married or that they should be judged badly for allowing themselves to be deceived? This doesn't make sense to me.

 

However once the d-day occurs then certainly it seems likely that 2 people (the BS and the OP) are going to suddenly be needy and lacking in confidence. It just seems ridiculous for the OW and BS to be hurling insults at each other about this as in most case the d-day takes both by surprise.

 

Often they will both try to stay with the WS. I can only speak for myself as a BW and say that I was just too shell shocked to do anything than become a blithering mess; and I was simply incapable of making any meaningful decisions about my marriage. My only other comment is that both my H and the OW had a lot more ability to prepare for this than I did. It seems possible to me that the OW can go into full competition mode on d-day leaving the BW just floundering in the apparent destruction of her life. From seeing the OW board many do just that. From my perspective my H seemed to have entered me into a competition with the OW without even telling me while giving her a head start. I know I'm using competition type terms but I can honestly say that I have never been competitive about men before and had little idea what do do when faced with someone who had no compunction about trying to "steal" for want of a better word, my H.

 

3. At to why many would consider that a BW is "better" than an OW. I think it's based on our societal norms. My H has acknowledged that in going outside our M he was in fact trying to do the best he could and was trying to supplement, not replace me. His OW always knew he would never leave and he never promised it. However the big problem is that if there were problems in our marriage then this was a joint issue that we should have solved together. He agrees that it was wrong for him to solve a joint marital problem by lying to me and manipulating me to facilitate his A.

 

I will never understand why a woman would even want a man who is committed elsewhere. I am in my 50s. I did not marry until age 36; but have been hit on in the past by all sorts of men including partnered ones. Some were very attractive but I think there is something in my make up that just doesn't allow me to become involved.

 

S

[Sanafa]

Thank you so much, I really appreciate the honest response

 

Just to clarify the one point I was trying to make, again in no judgment. OW tend to be the one consider settling, taking "leftover's". My question was are we both not "settling", yes I settled for half of, however a BS after knowing still settles for someone who made a choice to go outside the marriage instead of working within. I guess I am saying many who are not either the BW or the OW will see us as weak, for similar reasons

 

 

And I know this always sounds wrong ( there really is no right being the OW). We were attracted to each other and there was chemistry, initially we both felt ( hindsight) we were in control of our situation. Both professionals with busy lives and use to being in control of all aspects of our lives. We thought we could control this as well, and of course in our situation intimacy was created mudding the water with emotions. By then, we did know we had gone over the edge, but by then still thinking selfishly we could enjoy each other and not hurt anyone else

 

Do I believe it now, no not at all. I spent the first three weeks crying all the time. Many won't believe it but the first two were not about me, I couldn't even begin to imagine the guilt and responsibility I would feel for hurting his W and potentially playing a role in breaking up their family.

 

I will be honest though, after the first two weeks, I did start focusing on what I was losing and while I don't think I was in competition it was much harder to say " Ok, bye and good luck". Even knowing all I did there was a small hope that we would find our way back, I think most would be lying if they said otherwise. But I also know us to well and the guilt and pain associated would make any future relationship between us far to hard regardless of selfishly wanting it.

 

Even now, if they separate I will always feel responsible for that and I am not proud of my choices, but as we know I made them and have to accept responsibility. Not a shining moment for either of us.

 

I do agree about "us" having the advantage of knowledge. When DDay happened it really was earth shattering for all of us, BUT we always knew it "could" so of course our level was nowhere near the BS

[Apple_juice]

 

Just to clarify the one point I was trying to make, again in no judgment. OW tend to be the one consider settling, taking "leftover's". My question was are we both not "settling", yes I settled for half of, however a BS after knowing still settles for someone who made a choice to go outside the marriage instead of working within. I guess I am saying many who are not either the BW or the OW will see us as weak, for similar reasons

 

I think you will have to compare like for like

 

1. An OW settles for less (although she may have aimed for more) because she knows fully well she's getting only half when she jumps into an affair. Given a scenario where a potential W was told that in a near future her H will betray their marriage, would she still walk down the altar? would she setlle for less? most likely not (if she expected nothing less than a Marriage in the first place). That's the difference in cut/principle (whatever you call it) between an OW and some BS. Some women, as the above poster Sydlyon mentioned, would never even contemplate the idea of having anything to do with a MM.

 

 

However,

 

2. It's a different story once you have stayed in a marriage, especially after a long time, where both parties have tangled their lives in such ways (more often than not, at the expense of the wives - ie: sacrificing careers, having to rely on husband financially in order to take care of young children etc). It may seem we settle for less, for staying after the D-day. But on the flip side maybe it shows a strength of character instead of weakness, no?

 

Based on my own very limited experience. I had difficult days where i just felt like i want to pack my bags and go, get my revenge, soothe my pride, abandon the baby in my tummy, start a new life and give both H & OW their hell, it seems to be the easy way out, the desirable one. But what will i drag my child/ren into? I have a young daughter who deserves a complete family, a loving father and mother, nothing less. She doesn't understand yet the concept that a family may contain only a daddy or a mommy (i blame myself for painting such pretty pictures since early age - ie: story books which often contain the ideal nuclear family structure, mom, dad & child - even in object, animals & plants!). It's unfair to make her choose or to make her feel like she has less than other kids before she's old enough to understand. Cut story short, there are many reasons why BS stays, but it's not always because we are weak. Some stay to keep things together for those they love dearly.

[Spark1111]

I certainly can understand chemistry and developing feelings for another person. It's human nature.

 

I cannot understand lying to and deceiving someone you claim to "love." I find it hard to understand someone who helps you to betray someone you claim to love, in the name of "chemistry."

 

Separate, explore the chemistry, be honest with your spouse because it is the respectful and grown up way to act. Go to MC, work on the primary relationship. Make a decision. Allow your spouse to make their decision too. Allow your spouse to explore "chemistry" with other partners. Fair is fair, but it never goes down that way, does it?.

 

Deception, lies and secrecy are abominable in any relationship; marital, parental, friendships, or work-related.

 

I only have empathy for the OW, whose story would probably read just like your story. My anger was mostly reserved for my WS, who, when I gave him the opportunity to separate and go get her, started begging to come home and work on the marriage when I was sure the last thing I wanted was to be married to HIM!

 

Weaker? Absolutely not! A BS who chooses to work on the marriage after experiencing the devastation this betrayal causes is among the strongest people there are. It is easier to divorce than to take this road.

[Adunaphel]

This is not going to be as useful as a BS's perpective, but if you do not mind I'm jumping in from an OW's point of view (as I find the thread interesting).

 

 

Is it not possible that they actually knew what they were doing?

 

That they did have a clear understanding?

 

I think many married people who have affairs know exactly what they are doing - it is either the cake eaters, or the ones who not only mean to leave but actually do it.

 

Is it even remotely possible that the fog is actually the weeks/months following DDay when guilt, shame and in some situations threats are being thrown about at record speed. The decision the WS makes during that time (either to stay or go )must be clouded, far too many emotions for it not be.

 

From some stories I heard (my personal experience is a different matter) I think it is very possible. But I'd tend to regard them as different kinds of fog. The affair fog sounds more like a "I am not thinking, I am lost in fantasy land" thing, while the post DD fog sounds more like a Sorcerer's Apprentice act - everything went wrong, it is your responsability, you have to deal with it and you do not feel like you can...

 

For having such low self respect to have an affair. Could many not turn that around and say the BS has just as little? I was never lied to, in my situation he didn't pretend he would leave and we both knew why that was. But for so many BS to call the OW/OM unconfident, needy, etc is that not hypicritical?

 

I think the unconfidant and needy comments are directed mainly towards the OW who suck up whatever line the MM gives them.

 

Both the OW/OM and the BS often go to the ends of the earth for the Cheating MM so is one really better than the other?

 

I think it would be like comparing apples and oranges...and not fair to both.

 

As an OW, though, I would have felt that something was off if MM's W went to the lenght of the earth for him... I would have started to seriously question his side of the story.

If I were a BS, and knew that the OW was doing all she could to keep seeing him... I would not just assume easily she is a stalker, or a psycho, or desperate.

Thinking that if the other person is acting desperate she is not balanced or has issues (be it the WS or the OW) is dangerous, IMO. If the other person is acting way too desperate **for the information we have**, then we are probably dealing with a worse man than we thought, IMO.

 

And finally ( for now) is it even remotely possible that the MM/MW was doing the best they could?

 

Is it possible that they still love and thier choice to go outside the marriage while wrong may have been at the time thier way of doing the right thing? Many people love each other without having chemistry but as humans being loved, being intimate is a need.

 

I think it is very possible... but it would make them either very selfish people or people who acted very selfishly.

It's like saying they needed to cheat. Did they *really* need to cheat?

Even if they truly *needed* to cheat, they had the option of discussing their need.

I am sure there are some cases where the other person "must" cheat to survive. I know of one. But I think they are very rare.

[Trimmer]

Fog- Depending on what board you refer to this predominately is in reference to the WS that they were apparently feeling during the affair.

 

Is it not possible that they actually knew what they were doing?

 

That they did have a clear understanding?

Yes, of course it's possible. And if it's true, doesn't it make the WS seem even more cold, calculating, and disrespectful of the marriage? The "fog" is a symbol that the WS can look to for reassurance that "that's not really who my spouse is - he/she is temporarily insane..." And that provides hope for some kind of recovery. Maybe it's false hope, and the WS really has it all calculated out, and the WS really isn't who the BS thought. That's just another hit for the BS to take, and so, at least temporarily, the idea of the "affair fog" helps to soften the blow.

 

It's a defense mechanism. I've got two examples to give you from my own experience. In response to my wife's first affair years ago, she couldn't tell me what happened, what she was thinking, why she did what she did. I think we both accepted that she was 'in a fog' so in that case, the "fog" metaphor worked, and was embraced by both of us - perhaps not to the best long-term benefit of our marriage, as I think we mutually used it as a defense against having to do the hard work of healing what was truly wrong in our marriage.

 

More recently, when I first understood that she was considering leaving our marriage for someone else, I again clung to the idea that maybe she was in "a fog" and that all it would take was for her to eventually realize that she was making a mistake and things would get better. Well, she was of firm mind, and we are now divorced and they are together. So no fog in this case, apparently. Or, perhaps more accurately, as you point out, fog in this case all came after revelation and througout everyone's recovery.

 

Is it even remotely possible that the fog is actually the weeks/months following DDay when guilt, shame and in some situations threats are being thrown about at record speed. The decision the WS makes during that time (either to stay or go )must be clouded, far too many emotions for it not be.

Perhaps so. I know you've avoided overdoing the 'competition' metaphor, but I'll throw another one in here: the Fog of War. Things are flying around, people are injured, the landscape keeps changing, and the action is coming so fast you can't keep up with it... As SidLyon pointed out, there may be "fogs" of different types at different times. The former, sometimes referred to as the "affair fog" descended upon the WS, and the latter that includes the BS.

 

Is it not far more rational to say that for all three the Fog is after DDay when all parties have there lives turned upside ( some more deserving than others, I get that)

Well, you can say that "a fog" descends, but the "affair fog" of the WS has a certain place in the lexicon - you can argue its existence case by case, or the possibility of foggy thinking during other phases, but I don't know that there's much purpose in trying to redefine "the fog" as a term.

 

Judgement on the OW - For having such low self respect to have an affair. Could many not turn that around and say the BS has just as little? I was never lied to, in my situation he didn't pretend he would leave and we both knew why that was. But for so many BS to call the OW/OM unconfident, needy, etc is that not hypicritical?

Reading you propose that "the BS has little self-respect", at first, feels like a cold slap in the face, and I'm not talking as a BS here, it is just an incongruous statement.

 

But then I believe I understand that you are describing the "BS-who-decides-to-stay-with-the-WS", and all the layers that go with it, and I can at least see your perspective on that issue. So let's just be careful that we describe which character we are talking about.

 

At any time leading up to D-Day, when the BS is not consciously aware of the affair, I don't see how you can infer low self-respect on the part of the BS from the existence of the affair. Indeed, some people with low self-respect will have spouses who will cheat on them, but I take your statement to imply that the affair proves low self-respect, and that's not logically supportable.

 

Now, if your statement was talking about the post D-Day BS, who clings and stays with the WS, then as I said, I can at least see your perspective. And again here, I can tell you from personal experience that yes, I had very low self-respect, self-esteem, sense of self-worth, all of that. Both my blaming myself for my wife's straying, as well as assuming that it proved that I was clearly unworthy. And then, my willingness to do anything I could to "make it work" (motivated at least partly by my hope that our kids could still grow up in a supportive, single, two-parent family) drained even more of my self-respect as I saw her slip away. Boy, did I feel like a sap.

 

So while your statement seems to imply that low self-respect is some kind of a character deficit on the part of the BS, I see it (and I experienced it personally) as one of the injuries resulting from the affair.

 

Both the OW/OM and the BS often go to the ends of the earth for the Cheating MM so is one really better than the other?

Well, I think it's polarizing to try to even put it in terms of "which is better than the other", as if answering "no" would imply equal culapbility or something. The fact is that the BS is trying to recover a vision that he/she shared with the WS, based on explicit commitments and representations of fidelity from the WS.

 

Whereas the AP (affair partner, i.e. OM/OW) is hoping to realize a vision of some kind that, right from the outset, explicitly and pretty clearly includes probable injury to others.

 

So I still don't like the structure of your "better than the other" question, but if you have to put it in those terms, let me turn your question back around: isn't one of these "better than the other?"

 

And finally ( for now) is it even remotely possible that the MM/MW was doing the best they could?

 

Is it possible that they still love and thier choice to go outside the marriage while wrong may have been at the time thier way of doing the right thing?

What right thing, though? Spouses have commitments to each other, one of which is an inherent commitment of honesty. I'm trying to figure out more specifically what "right thing" could be getting accomplished.... Maybe that's what you are trying to describe as you go on:

Many people love each other without having chemistry but as humans being loved, being intimate is a need.

 

So, if all is ok with the family core ( they are still friends, still have sex occassionally) is it even remotely possible that instead of the "cake and have it to theory" they are actually trying to be honorable and maintain the commitment they took while choosing to have their basic needs met as well?

I can't see the honor in this. I can't see how one can claim to be maintaining honor specifically by doing something that is dishonorable by every measure of what we understand marriage to be. It's built in to almost every marriage ceremony; do I really need to craft a convincing argument that virtually everyone knows that marriage implies a commitment to fidelity?

 

And is the secenario you describe not exactly the "cake and have it too" idea: the family is intact, you are getting sex occasionally - so what's the problem? - but you want a little sumpin' extra. What you have described is not meeting a basic need, it's not even metaphorically stealing bread to feed your hungry kids; it's breaking a vow and deceiving the person you promised to trust because it feels good to get your hormones and neurotransmitters revved up.

 

Where is the honor?

 

And as far as the "best you can do" point, if you aren't getting what you want, how is deceiving your spouse the best you can do? How about leaving first to seek something better? I would find that a LOT more honorable, so from my perspective, I don't see cheating as the "best" option.

 

And if your reply goes to families with kids (like, he can't leave so cheating is the "best he can do" to meet his "needs"), then the "best you can do" line must assume that the WS's "needs" get met without anyone ever finding out - the assumption that you can "control it" and that nobody will ever get hurt, as you speak of your own relationship later. But that so seldom turns out to be the case, that I believe the ultimate devastation that occurs as the result of an affair is almost always pre-written when it starts, and it's only hubris that prevents the participants from seeing it.

 

Or maybe that's the "affair fog" - the belief that you have an ability to control the relationship, and prevent injuries to others. Seems foolish now, doesn't it? Wasn't that a "fog", that prevented you from seeing how this was likely to turn out? That allowed you to close your eyes to the damage that it could cause, which is now all too clear?

 

I think the idea that an affair might be "the best one can do" in certain situations is itself a kind of a deception, a defense mechanism against the reality of an affair and its the almost certain destruction it causes, and ultimately an abdication of one's responsibility for it ("I had needs, and this was the best I could do...")

 

I will be honest though, after the first two weeks, I did start focusing on what I was losing and while I don't think I was in competition it was much harder to say " Ok, bye and good luck". Even knowing all I did there was a small hope that we would find our way back, I think most would be lying if they said otherwise.

Of course; even as a former BS, I believe you and understand you. You forged a relationship, you had a vision for it, and you grieve its loss. No value judgment alters that straightforward sequence. I believe your feeling of loss is real.

 

I do agree about "us" having the advantage of knowledge. When DDay happened it really was earth shattering for all of us, BUT we always knew it "could" so of course our level was nowhere near the BS

Along these lines, let me just clarify one of the many things that makes an affair such a bitter pill for a BS to swallow: saying that you "had the advantage of knowledge" is not the whole story; it's actually a fairly passive description. Not only did you have knowledge that the BS didn't have available, but in a more active sense, you and your MM had control that your MM withheld from the BS. You got to make choices, during a time when the BS didn't know choices were being made. The feeling of a loss of control is a powerful thing in anyone's life - and the BS perceives that the WS and AP work together to take that control for themselves, and through deception, to take control away from the BS. And that's a trauma beyond just "not knowing."

 

It's beyond surprise at something unexpected, it's beyond the shock and grief of a loss; it's betrayal by the one, most trusted person in your life.

[Spark1111]

Great Post Trimmer! Every word rings true!

[Gamine]

You refer to the situation of judgment on the OW for having such little self respect to have the affair and question whether the BS has just as little. The BS did not have an affair. In the scenario presented, the BS has done nothing to diminish themselves. When I learned that my husband diminished himself and his part of our marriage he was proffered a choice to abide by the terms of our agreement concerning how we were to live our 'joint life' or to leave and pursue his life without me. Diminishment of the self, the personal being that I am was not a part of the equation. I had to decide whether I could remain married to a man who diminished himself and brought disgrace and triviality to our 'joint life'. My life, who I am, was never touched. To diminish me would require my action.

 

You also state that both the OW/OM and the BS often go to the ends of the earth for the Cheating MM so is one really better than the other? I, as a BS, did not go to the ends of the earth for a cheating man. This would necessarily imply that the cheating was something to be negotiated in my life as if it is in the present as is the case with the affair partners. The man I remain married to cheated without my knowledge and whereupon it became my knowledge the cheating terminated instantly. Therefore there wasn't any requirement from me to moderate my life around a cheating man. The cheating had already taken place. I had to adapt to what had already happened and decide whether he was worth even knowing. He had to prove to me he was worthy of me, not the alternative. What does he bring to the table that would make him worth having me? Why did he deserve to reap the benefit of having me and all that I bring when he is no longer my equal? Why should he enjoy knowing he is the only one to lay next to me, touch me, caress me when he can't offer me the same thing? The answer is there is an inequity created. In my situation, he must bring more to me than he ever had... be more... do more... express more... he had to become more than he was to become someone worthy of me and staying in the marriage I have given him the opportunity he has asked for. He has asked for the opportunity to prove he is worthy of me and worthy of being my mate and sharing a joint life that is dignified and respectful.

 

Some affairs fall into the category of 'the perfect storm'. All of the elements perfectly aligned at a given moment when self doubt, confusion, desire, emptiness, loss, etc... collide with opportunity for a potential answer. We all have this in our lives, but we may not see sex and emotional ties with another person as the answer to these personal dilemmas. If I have internal self worth issues I look within and above. Sex and adoration, for myself, are not solutions to a relationship that isn't 'clicking' or for more deeper personal issues of crisis.

 

So, was it remotely possible that the MM/MW was doing the best they could, and is it possible that they still love and their choice to go outside the marriage while wrong may have been at the time their way of doing the right thing? I believe that the choice to go outside the marriage in order to complete, by the use of two people, the composite 'perfect person' is not a question merely of right or wrong. For the individual making the choice it is merely what is in their own spectrum of weakness and/or desire at the time. And, I am uncertain as to whether this constitutes the 'right thing'. It is an act purely for the self. In a marriage it is essentially two people promising to one another to live for each other. Upholding one another's best interests no matter what. If this unit isn't functioning properly or to the utmost, and one of the parties is dissatisfied, they have an obligation to the other to dedicate 100% of their energy and focus to correcting the deficiencies. If they cannot be corrected, then the answer is to dissolve the unit, or divorce, if that is the choice. However, there are two people involved in joint life. For one of them to choose to make their personal identity complete through another relationship in addition to the unit is abandoning their duty to the fulfillment of the life they live jointly with another. In marriage there is the promise to always look to the other in these times. There is no flaw in dissatisfaction or in unhappiness with a marriage. There is a flaw in how it is addressed. There is no flaw in dissatisfaction or unhappiness with oneself, internally, there is a flaw in how it is addressed. Love and intimacy are fostered in a relationship with purpose. An affair may not necessarily have a purpose other than an attainable way of satisfying a shortcoming or satisfying a desire in a, perhaps, more easily available way in contrast to the diligence required in addressing one's own emotional problems or the alienation in a marriage. It doesn't fix the deficiencies in one's life or joint life. It is merely a panacea. In what you describe, your relationship was not love based. Therefore how was love and intimacy attained?

 

The fog implies being lost in the mist of residual memories and/or attachments that have been formed and the lack of clarity this brings to the situation. For some it is a feeling of loss associated with 'being in love with love'. It is the loss of the routine, of another relationship. It is also a point of catharsis whereby the WS may be realizing the deeper underlying reasons for why they made this choice. Sometimes the WS winds up in therapy over it. They themselves needing outside help to make them understand why. Ultimately, the question is why was I, or the marriage of which I was a part, so broken to begin with... and, why did I choose what I chose when I really want my marriage?

 

Why would I (the WS speaking) choose to give myself intellectually, emotionally, and/or physically to another person when I really want the one I'm married to?

 

These are the questions that fuel an entire industry of psychologists and psychiatrists. Why do I do the opposite of what I want? Why am I self destructive? Why did I work on another relationship when I was involved in another... and why did I think that investing myself in someone else would magically make my 'joint life' better when what I really want is to remain in this 'joint life'?

 

If there is total clarity in the making of a decision, one rarely has regret. So, does the WS really understand what they are doing?

 

I have lived on both sides of this fence. When I was young (in my 20's) I dated married men. I had never been married. I had no clue. I was pursued by many single and married men but made the choice to date married men because of the pressure single men applied for commitment and marriage. I was living in a bubble. I developed a sense of having little regard for marriage because of how easily it seemed married men would throw everything away. It seemed almost effortless. So, I became very jaded until I met my husband. I married when I was 35 but what I was doing by marrying him... was choosing to live a joint life with him forever. I chose him, the person, the individual. I did not marry simply because I wanted to be married. I wanted to be with him, in particular, after having 'seen it all'.

 

I made an informed decision and was prepared to make that commitment.

 

OW may be wondering, as are you, why stay after the betrayal has been uncovered? Well, it is very simple and very complex at the same time. A life with a man for 15 years, someone with whom I have had sex with thousands of times (literally), who I have awakened with thousands of times, who I have dined out with hundreds of times, whose hand I have held thousands upon thousands of times, who I have spent all night talking with, vacationing with, preparing dinner with, laughing with, going to the movies with, opening birthday gifts with, celebrating holidays with.... to say that the affair of a few months with another woman means the same thing in this man's heart and in the totality of his life would be a fraud in light of his regret for having done so. Remaining is not settling, necessarily, for something less. It can be the returning of what was between two people back to the marriage and the commitment affirmed.

 

For whatever this is worth, my husband is actually more capable of being a good husband now than before his affair. There is no wonderment or escapism associated with the 'idea' of another person any longer. He learned the hard way what he should have already known... what he knew on our wedding day. He was shown the door on D'day. It was his choice not to walk through it.

[Sanafa]

I really do believe the talking with others in a respectful way can be beneficial and I can't thank you guys enough for not making this a bashing thread.

 

I made some "blanket" statements that didn't necessarily mean I had those feelings, simply that after weeks on these boards I see a trend from the WS to bash the OW or vice versa.

 

I know it was wrong, but as I said we "thought" we were in control, someone suggested that that feeling may have been fog, and I agree that could be a form of fog.

 

I was not in a situation where I was lied to. I knew he would not leave anytime soon and the only potential of "being together" would have been much farther down the road, if at all.

 

Also, someone was understanding of my questions regarding why one would stay. Again, not necessarily my view -- In my case, knowing what came out, how much detail, how many years etc, I do question if it is the best for both parties but I also know 2 things - That is not my decision and regardless of what happens to them, my guilt and his as the main players in this would not allow us to have any future. Believe it or not, I am not wired that way and the guilt and pain that we have experienced (all three) is not something that can be pushed under the rug by any party.

 

Being devils advocate though, ( it really is how you learn). I still struggle with BS assuming that the H wanted to stay.

 

Of course he wants to stay, his home, his family as he knows it, outside family included, vacations, etc are all in view of being lost. While working on the marriage after an affair is heavy lifting, is it not possible that they simply want to stay because for them ( not the BS) it is easier than starting over? Especially if they know their OW/OM may not be willing to carry on. The BS would not know that for fact, much like we can't take for fact what the H says regarding the wife.

 

I get lost in the whole " I know him, he's my husband" theory. And again, as or if I was ever the BS I am unsure I could move past it especially if he has been going out of the marriage for years.

 

You thought you knew him, you seen compassion, remorse, kindness many times through the marriage but yet he was still going outside. To me, the balancing act would be how do I know he isn't now?

 

Right or wrong, we had a relationship based on truth of the situation, of truth of our pasts, and acceptance. Yes while chemistry initially played a role, intimacy and acceptance played the role in creating the love. Everyone will argue what love is to them. For me it is acceptance, respect, and honesty the chemistry is the bonus. I am in no way defending our relationship ( don't think I could while I was in it) but again I am putting this things out to learn.

 

I think some of my frustration stems from the idea that our relationship couldn't possibly have been real, that councilors, others MUST show the WS what they were thinking. Assumptions and I think initially I was trying to show that a lot of assumptions can be made about both parties, from both parties and many of them are wrong. Someone suggested "fog" as a term that can help cushion the reality for the WS, I tend to agree with that.

 

I know several people who stayed (we all know the stats) but I also sadly know several that have wasted years beating each other up, and more important holding on to the "life" they know rather because for many as hard as that may be, it is far harder to be really honest, lose family, money, positions, power than it is to stay and be miserable under one corner of the umbrella.

[Adunaphel]

Of course he wants to stay, his home, his family as he knows it, outside family included, vacations, etc are all in view of being lost. While working on the marriage after an affair is heavy lifting, is it not possible that they simply want to stay because for them ( not the BS) it is easier than starting over?

It is possible...but isn't the thought disgusting? Isn't in this case the OP the lucky one, for not ending up with such a person?

How selfish it is to keep your partner tied to you because it is convenient?

That is, unless both partners reach an agreement of sort and the BS knows where he/she stands...

 

I think some of my frustration stems from the idea that our relationship couldn't possibly have been real, that councilors, others MUST show the WS what they were thinking.

 

Do not take it personally... it is the counselor's job to help the married couple survive the affair, and helping to shred the affair apart is a part of it.

Others are usually friends of the couple... and if the partners decide to work things out, it is very normal that they will get support from friends and family.

I am sure that your friends treated your relationship with MM as very real and are now upset at him.

 

I know several people who stayed (we all know the stats) but I also sadly know several that have wasted years beating each other up, and more important holding on to the "life" they know rather because for many as hard as that may be, it is far harder to be really honest, lose family, money, positions, power than it is to stay and be miserable under one corner of the umbrella.

One could argue that keeping to live a huge, fat lie is punishment enough.

Unfortunately it is their betrayed partners who pay the biggest price.

[Sanafa]

It is possible...but isn't the thought disgusting? Isn't in this case the OP the lucky one, for not ending up with such a person?

How selfish it is to keep your partner tied to you because it is convenient?

That is, unless both partners reach an agreement of sort and the BS knows where he/she stands...

I am 100% agreement and again may not be my situation but I see it happen far more than I see the " we are better from it" scenerio.

 

 

Do not take it personally... it is the counselor's job to help the married couple survive the affair, and helping to shred the affair apart is a part of it.

Others are usually friends of the couple... and if the partners decide to work things out, it is very normal that they will get support from friends and family.

I am sure that your friends treated your relationship with MM as very real and are now upset at him.

Not personal, but this is what I have a problem with. Is a marriage counsilor not suppose to help the couple find out what is best for both parties? As I said no offense to a BS ( you are right, both H and OP have it much better) but if I was a BS the LAST thing I would want is a councilor convincing my WH or WW that they want to stay ( and lets face it it happens, not just in affairs... we are conditioned that with enough coaching we will accept that others know better, especially if we are finding ourselves in turmoil).

 

My friends aren't upset with him. I am pretty blessed with non-judgmental people (all but one) and they truly feel sorry for each of us.

 

One could argue that keeping to live a huge, fat lie is punishment enough.

Unfortunately it is their betrayed partners who pay the biggest price.

Again, you won't get an argument here, they truly are the ones that pay the biggest price, however after DDay much like the other two involvoved, it is then a choice and my thoughts are I would rather have someone who wants to be there for ME, not the house, the car, the kids, the company...but for ME and most important without someone telling them that is what they SHOULD want.

 

(capitals for empazies...not yelling)

[Gamine]

Speaking for myself, I didn't assume anything about why he was staying. At first I was quite insistent that he leave and get on with his life and I with mine. I have quite literally packed his bags for him. I doubted his sincerity. I asked him to leave, not stay. He begged for the opportunity to show me how much he loves me and maintained that he went through a difficult time (him versus him) and that the affair was the biggest mistake of his life.

 

I cannot assume anything and wouldn't want to. In fact, I assumed the worst. I am gambling my life on his sincerity. As an attractive woman I have many options available to me as well and wouldn't want to be in a marriage with a man who didn't adore me and want to be here with all of his heart and soul. That gamble presents many insecurities and rides on what he has shown me, not told me.

 

I have told him that if I ever encounter anything ever again regarding infidelity.. I would empty MY bank accounts, take my passport, and disappear. No drama of divorce, he can keep everything.

 

No conversations. No explanations. No need to disclose or forgive.

 

I'd be gone.

 

Is starting over a problem for someone who is unhappy with their life? Usually it isn't, especially if they are truly unhappy. Sometimes people are not technically unhappy, just searching for parts of their youth... new love, etc...

 

Vacations, homes, families and the spouse all comprise the marriage. So, yes, I believe all play a role in the decision to remain in the marriage. These are inextricably intertwined with the spouse. However, if it is such an awful marriage one would leave (I believe) notwithstanding.

 

I'm sure that the OMW who my husband was involved with was surprised by him and his abandonment of the relationship. I don't know how to explain that with the exception of when I was shoving him out of the door with his bags he simply cried saying that he can't live without me and that he can't leave.

[angie2443]

 

A MC is supposed to help a couple fix their marriage. If that is not what the couple wants, they should not go to MC. It makes no sense. In this case, IC would be what the answer.

[Sanafa]

Speaking for myself, I didn't assume anything about why he was staying. At first I was quite insistent that he leave and get on with his life and I with mine. I have quite literally packed his bags for him. I doubted his sincerity. I asked him to leave, not stay. He begged for the opportunity to show me how much he loves me and maintained that he went through a difficult time (him versus him) and that the affair was the biggest mistake of his life.

 

I cannot assume anything and wouldn't want to. In fact, I assumed the worst. I am gambling my life on his sincerity. As an attractive woman I have many options available to me as well and wouldn't want to be in a marriage with a man who didn't adore me and want to be here with all of his heart and soul. That gamble presents many insecurities and rides on what he has shown me, not told me.

 

I have told him that if I ever encounter anything ever again regarding infidelity.. I would empty MY bank accounts, take my passport, and disappear. No drama of divorce, he can keep everything.

 

No conversations. No explanations. No need to disclose or forgive.

 

I'd be gone.

 

Is starting over a problem for someone who is unhappy with their life? Usually it isn't, especially if they are truly unhappy. Sometimes people are not technically unhappy, just searching for parts of their youth... new love, etc...

 

Vacations, homes, families and the spouse all comprise the marriage. So, yes, I believe all play a role in the decision to remain in the marriage. These are inextricably intertwined with the spouse. However, if it is such an awful marriage one would leave (I believe) notwithstanding.

 

I'm sure that the OMW who my husband was involved with was surprised by him and his abandonment of the relationship. I don't know how to explain that with the exception of when I was shoving him out of the door with his bags he simply cried saying that he can't live without me and that he can't leave.

 

Thanks Gammine, I really do appreciate your honesty. It funny because those replying here appear far more level headed than the majority of what I have seen the past couple weeks.

 

I know in my case, he always believed she would leave but the first words were " If you did, just tell me and we'll be fine". Again, I did NOT think she would leave, nor did I hope other than the normal level of I wish it was different and again any OW saying otherwise is most likely not being 100% honest.

 

I think I would be much like you, as I have no desire to be with someone who does not choose it and I have a difficulty with the level of "manipulation for lack of a better word" that goes on in many of these situations.

 

At the end of the day, everyone and I do mean everyone deserves to be loved and accepted.

[Sanafa]

A MC is supposed to help a couple fix their marriage. If that is not what the couple wants, they should not go to MC. It makes no sense. In this case, IC would be what the answer.

 

Have you ever been through a DDay? I only ask because if you have, I think most will agree that the WS is the last one to argue anything, especially as I said when being faced with unbelievable guilt, shame, fear of loss of the "life"

 

It was decide within a day that my MM and his W would go to council ling, in fact she set the appointment up 2 days after DDay.

 

MM and I continued to talk ( and i know people won't believe this, but In the first two weeks I was far more worried about him and her) for almost 4 weeks before his Councilor told him he couldn't continue. ( I agreed, and think that surprised him. Did I initially break the NC, of course I did... I was finally starting to hurt for what I had lost, and as I said far from perfect) While everyone was deciding what was going to happen, I was spinning from guilt and when we finally went NC I could only then start to hurt for me.

 

I sent a couple emails, tried to wrap my head around all I was feeling and even shared some anger, did it mean I expected or even wanted him back....No, it didn't.

 

Getting back to it's just " stupid to go to Mc"... in it, you do as you are suppose to, or at least most do.... hence my concern of being in the Fog and easily directed to what is more acceptable, easier in some aspects and more importantly the best for the life.

 

Seriously, I would question any man in the initial phase who could look his W in the face and say " I know you want to work on this, it was XX years after all, but sorry honey, I don't want to". Just like I would run from any man suggesting after all those years there is not a connection or a love.

[PhoenixRise]

 

Fog-

 

Depending on what board you refer to this predominately is in reference to the WS that they were apparently feeling during the affair.

 

Is it not possible that they actually knew what they were doing?

 

That they did have a clear understanding?

 

Is it even remotely possible that the fog is actually the weeks/months following DDay when guilt, shame and in some situations threats are being thrown about at record speed. The decision the WS makes during that time (either to stay or go )must be clouded, far too many emotions for it not be.

 

Is it not far more rational to say that for all three the Fog is after DDay when all parties have there lives turned upside ( some more deserving than others, I get that)

 

Judgement on the OW

 

For having such low self respect to have an affair. Could many not turn that around and say the BS has just as little? I was never lied to, in my situation he didn't pretend he would leave and we both knew why that was. But for so many BS to call the OW/OM unconfident, needy, etc is that not hypicritical?

 

Both the OW/OM and the BS often go to the ends of the earth for the Cheating MM so is one really better than the other?

 

And finally ( for now) is it even remotely possible that the MM/MW was doing the best they could?

 

Is it possible that they still love and thier choice to go outside the marriage while wrong may have been at the time thier way of doing the right thing? Many people love each other without having chemistry but as humans being loved, being intimate is a need.

 

So, if all is ok with the family core ( they are still friends, still have sex occassionally) is it even remotely possible that instead of the "cake and have it to theory" they are actually trying to be honorable and maintain the commitment they took while choosing to have their basic needs met as well?

 

Not taking sides, throwing some of the many thoughts out there that I have had the last week or so.

 

BS or AP - many use manipulating and threatening tactics to stay involved either in the marriage or the affair.... why is one better than the other?

 

Regarding the Fog.

I think in some cases the WS does know what he/she is doing. There is a such thing as an exit affair.

BUT

I also think that during an affair, many WS live in an affair based reality that is so far removed from actual reality that it might as well be on another planet.

 

AND. It is possible that some WS after dday are more moved by guilt over the devestation than by any well thought out desire to stay in the marriage. If you read here long enough you will see that many BS show their WS the door after dday. Many of the BS found to their surprise that the same man who risked it all to have the affair, now that they are free to do as they please without decieving anyone beg the BS to forgive them and take them back. My H followed me to another state after I left him. If fog caused him to do this, all I can say is that that was some serious a$$ fog:p

 

Regarding self respect

 

I think affairs can have a serious negative impact on the self respect and esteem of all parties depending on how things are handled after the discovery.

 

I don't know the OW in my situation well enough to judge her self esteem. It could be said that getting so emotionally involved with a man who said the whole time he had no intention of leaving the marriage (I saw their correspondence) could be a sign of low self esteem.

 

Twisting yourself into a pretzle to try to get a WS to choose you IS a sign of low self esteem no matter if you are BS or AP.

 

AGAIN reading here, I am finding that there are many WS who esteem themselves enough to demand more and who do not try to win WS back. They might chose to give WS an opportunity to win them back. For me, I could NOT have been successful at a reconciliation with my H if I had not moved away and started to build a very good and happy life without him. This built my self esteem and my confidence more than I can say. Oh I still missed him and I still loved him, but I proved to myself that I COULD be pretty damn happy without him.

 

AND NO. It is not even remotely possible that my husband was doing the best he could when he was cheating on me. The affair was so far beneath the best he could do it is not even funny. There are many options he could have taken to address the issues within him. Self reflection is not easy. Conscious growth is not easy. The affair, by comparison seemed easier because he, like many WS thought he could control all the variables and everybody would come out of it unscathed.

 

Regarding manipulation or threats.

 

I think both of these tactics backfire in the end no matter if you are the BS or the AP. If what you want is a true, loving realtionship trying to control people this way does not get you there. However there is a difference in a threat and a ultimatum.

[Sanafa]

Regarding the Fog.

I think in some cases the WS does know what he/she is doing. There is a such thing as an exit affair.

BUT

I also think that during an affair, many WS live in an affair based reality that is so far removed from actual reality that it might as well be on another planet.

 

AND. It is possible that some WS after dday are more moved by guilt over the devestation than by any well thought out desire to stay in the marriage. If you read here long enough you will see that many BS show their WS the door after dday. Many of the BS found to their surprise that the same man who risked it all to have the affair, now that they are free to do as they please without decieving anyone beg the BS to forgive them and take them back. My H followed me to another state after I left him. If fog caused him to do this, all I can say is that that was some serious a$$ fog:p

 

Regarding self respect

 

I think affairs can have a serious negative impact on the self respect and esteem of all parties depending on how things are handled after the discovery.

 

I don't know the OW in my situation well enough to judge her self esteem. It could be said that getting so emotionally involved with a man who said the whole time he had no intention of leaving the marriage (I saw their correspondence) could be a sign of low self esteem.

 

Twisting yourself into a pretzle to try to get a WS to choose you IS a sign of low self esteem no matter if you are BS or AP.

 

AGAIN reading here, I am finding that there are many WS who esteem themselves enough to demand more and who do not try to win WS back. They might chose to give WS an opportunity to win them back. For me, I could NOT have been successful at a reconciliation with my H if I had not moved away and started to build a very good and happy life without him. This built my self esteem and my confidence more than I can say. Oh I still missed him and I still loved him, but I proved to myself that I COULD be pretty damn happy without him.

 

AND NO. It is not even remotely possible that my husband was doing the best he could when he was cheating on me. The affair was so far beneath the best he could do it is not even funny. There are many options he could have taken to address the issues within him. Self reflection is not easy. Conscious growth is not easy. The affair, by comparison seemed easier because he, like many WS thought he could control all the variables and everybody would come out of it unscathed.

 

Regarding manipulation or threats.

 

I think both of these tactics backfire in the end no matter if you are the BS or the AP. If what you want is a true, loving realtionship trying to control people this way does not get you there. However there is a difference in a threat and a ultimatum.

 

Great post, and I agree really I do.

 

The only thing as the OW I would caution is assuming that correspondence via email or letter was the only thing being said.

 

For us, and only us we both went into knowing neither party wanted to hurt the family, again we "thought"... I know, I know

 

Months into it, we talked about waiting for his youngest to get out of school....again I honestly never let myself believe he would leave, guess I couldn't and it was my "mental" punishment for getting involved in the first place.

 

In one breath he would say he couldn't leave, in the other he would say he couldn't see going back to the life he had. All I am saying is to be cautious, while we had many emails we also had far more discussions in our world that would shed a different light.

[PhoenixRise]

Have you ever been through a DDay? I only ask because if you have, I think most will agree that the WS is the last one to argue anything, especially as I said when being faced with unbelievable guilt, shame, fear of loss of the "life"

 

It was decide within a day that my MM and his W would go to council ling, in fact she set the appointment up 2 days after DDay.

 

MM and I continued to talk ( and i know people won't believe this, but In the first two weeks I was far more worried about him and her) for almost 4 weeks before his Councilor told him he couldn't continue. ( I agreed, and think that surprised him. Did I initially break the NC, of course I did... I was finally starting to hurt for what I had lost, and as I said far from perfect) While everyone was deciding what was going to happen, I was spinning from guilt and when we finally went NC I could only then start to hurt for me.

 

I sent a couple emails, tried to wrap my head around all I was feeling and even shared some anger, did it mean I expected or even wanted him back....No, it didn't.

 

Getting back to it's just " stupid to go to Mc"... in it, you do as you are suppose to, or at least most do.... hence my concern of being in the Fog and easily directed to what is more acceptable, easier in some aspects and more importantly the best for the life.

 

Seriously, I would question any man in the initial phase who could look his W in the face and say " I know you want to work on this, it was XX years after all, but sorry honey, I don't want to". Just like I would run from any man suggesting after all those years there is not a connection or a love.

 

 

Sanafa

 

I will ask you this in all seriousness, Is your MM as easily led as you describe here?

 

Could he be forced into MC and into going through all this to work on the marriage if he doesn't want to? I mean....divorce does not equal loss of life, just loss of life as you know it. You still get to create a whole new life after the divorce is final.

 

Do you know his wife? It is possible that the things he told you about his wife, marriage, and dday are not true.

[Sanafa]

Sanafa

 

I will ask you this in all seriousness, Is your MM as easily led as you describe here?

 

Could he be forced into MC and into going through all this to work on the marriage if he doesn't want to? I mean....divorce does not equal loss of life, just loss of life as you know it. You still get to create a whole new life after the divorce is final.

 

Do you know his wife? It is possible that the things he told you about his wife, marriage, and dday are not true.

 

It is difficult to share much without sharing TMI.

 

But I will tell you his initial reaction was " I am trying to save my life". There is a great deal involved financially and they have children. The children is hardest because she told them the day after DDay and they basically told him they hated him.

 

My concern in "fog" after DDay is you are set up to lose it all, or at the very least the threat is very real. He is a man who has always done what is right ( in his mind) regardless of a sacrafice and is submissive rather than dominate. His W on the other hand is the D in the family.

 

I do know of her due to professional reasons, but also personally know his best friend who right from the first day of DDay said " he will let her run this". I on the other hand had *hoped his time with me would and the fact that years of his past came out would allow him to say " Ok, what do I want?" rather than going with what would be assumed.

 

Like I said though, in fairness when someone you do love has thier world LITERALLY turned upside down and says I still want this...... can you imagine how hard it would be to be selfish enough to say No?

 

I can't. I know we will never be together and I do worry about both of them because of how things came out. I know him well enough to know he hid who he was for years and I do worry that he will resign himself.

 

Don't get me wrong, his life isn't bad, in fact it is filled with everything you could want so it is very difficult to give up all of that for one peice, regardless of how important that peice is.