Questions for both sides

[PhoenixRise]

Great post, and I agree really I do.

 

The only thing as the OW I would caution is assuming that correspondence via email or letter was the only thing being said.

 

For us, and only us we both went into knowing neither party wanted to hurt the family, again we "thought"... I know, I know

 

Months into it, we talked about waiting for his youngest to get out of school....again I honestly never let myself believe he would leave, guess I couldn't and it was my "mental" punishment for getting involved in the first place.

 

In one breath he would say he couldn't leave, in the other he would say he couldn't see going back to the life he had. All I am saying is to be cautious, while we had many emails we also had far more discussions in our world that would shed a different light.

 

It is true that I was not privy to all of their conversations. I am sure they had their "future talk" or their "what ifs". I do know from my conversations with OW and from their correspondence that every time she started to actually expect anything from him he reminded her that he had always been honest about the fact that he was not leaving.

 

This is why in my other post that you should question what HE told you about the marriage, wife, etc.

 

Men who are cheating on their wives lie, and not just to the wife.

[angie2443]

Sanafa, what do you want? You have a lot of responses here. Many of them long. You've written long responses also. I have the feeling though, that you want to here something simple. I think that maybe, there is a specific response you are looking for. I hope this makes sense.

[Sanafa]

Sanafa

 

I will ask you this in all seriousness, Is your MM as easily led as you describe here?

 

Could he be forced into MC and into going through all this to work on the marriage if he doesn't want to? I mean....divorce does not equal loss of life, just loss of life as you know it. You still get to create a whole new life after the divorce is final.

 

Do you know his wife? It is possible that the things he told you about his wife, marriage, and dday are not true.

 

It is difficult to share much without sharing TMI.

 

But I will tell you his initial reaction was " I am trying to save my life". There is a great deal involved financially and they have children. The children is hardest because she told them the day after DDay and they basically told him they hated him.

 

My concern in "fog" after DDay is you are set up to lose it all, or at the very least the threat is very real. He is a man who has always done what is right ( in his mind) regardless of a sacrafice and is submissive rather than dominate. His W on the other hand is the D in the family.

 

I do know of her due to professional reasons, but also personally know his best friend who right from the first day of DDay said " he will let her run this". I on the other hand had *hoped his time with me would and the fact that years of his past came out would allow him to say " Ok, what do I want?" rather than going with what would be assumed.

 

Like I said though, in fairness when someone you do love has thier world LITERALLY turned upside down and says I still want this...... can you imagine how hard it would be to be selfish enough to say No?

 

I can't. I know we will never be together and I do worry about both of them because of how things came out. I know him well enough to know he hid who he was for years and I do worry that he will resign himself.

 

Don't get me wrong, his life isn't bad, in fact it is filled with everything you could want so it is very difficult to give up all of that for one peice, regardless of how important that peice is.

 

As well, they do respect each other a great deal, he did not pretend he hated her ( that would worry me) or that he didn't care about her. Nor did he make her out to be a terrible person in any capacity. They worked hard together as partners but the marriage never had intimacy as it was based on other wants and needs for both from the get go.

[PhoenixRise]

It is difficult to share much without sharing TMI.

 

But I will tell you his initial reaction was " I am trying to save my life". There is a great deal involved financially and they have children. The children is hardest because she told them the day after DDay and they basically told him they hated him.

 

My concern in "fog" after DDay is you are set up to lose it all, or at the very least the threat is very real. He is a man who has always done what is right ( in his mind) regardless of a sacrafice and is submissive rather than dominate. His W on the other hand is the D in the family.

 

I do know of her due to professional reasons, but also personally know his best friend who right from the first day of DDay said " he will let her run this". I on the other hand had *hoped his time with me would and the fact that years of his past came out would allow him to say " Ok, what do I want?" rather than going with what would be assumed.

 

Like I said though, in fairness when someone you do love has thier world LITERALLY turned upside down and says I still want this...... can you imagine how hard it would be to be selfish enough to say No?

 

I can't. I know we will never be together and I do worry about both of them because of how things came out. I know him well enough to know he hid who he was for years and I do worry that he will resign himself.

 

Don't get me wrong, his life isn't bad, in fact it is filled with everything you could want so it is very difficult to give up all of that for one peice, regardless of how important that peice is.

 

 

 

It is not surprising that children who are old enough to understand that their mother had been seriously harmed and old enough to understand that this is because of something daddy did, that they would have strong feelings about it. Hopefully MM will be able to repair the damage done and go on to have a good relationship with his children.

 

AND I have to disagree with you.... It is not the dday that set MM up to lose it all, it was the affair that did that.

 

I think it would take MORE intgerity for MM to tell the truth about the marriage if indeed he really wants out. It seems to me that a dday would be a perfect opportunity to tell the BS you are not happy and leaving the marriage.

 

AND I say this will all kindness. The sooner you stop letting yourself be concerend about MM marriage and reconciliation the better off YOU will be. You said you have lots of guilt and are wondering how you got into this situation? Put your focus there. Wondering about how he is coping with the reconciliation just keeps you in an affair dynamic and keeps you engaged in the situation when, for whatever reason, he chose to stay.

[Sanafa]

It is not surprising that children who are old enough to understand that their mother had been seriously harmed and old enough to understand that this is because of something daddy did, that they would have strong feelings about it. Hopefully MM will be able to repair the damage done and go on to have a good relationship with his children.

 

AND I have to disagree with you.... It is not the dday that set MM up to lose it all, it was the affair that did that.

 

I think it would take MORE intgerity for MM to tell the truth about the marriage if indeed he really wants out. It seems to me that a dday would be a perfect opportunity to tell the BS you are not happy and leaving the marriage.

 

AND I say this will all kindness. The sooner you stop letting yourself be concerend about MM marriage and reconciliation the better off YOU will be. You said you have lots of guilt and are wondering how you got into this situation? Put your focus there. Wondering about how he is coping with the reconciliation just keeps you in an affair dynamic and keeps you engaged in the situation when, for whatever reason, he chose to stay.

 

While I understand, I answered questions you asked about the situation.

 

Right or wrong, I am and always have been inquisitive. I am 100% focused on what I need to do, however that doesn't mean there isn't an opportunity to understand others, in fact I think it is a perfect time to do that.

 

I have never had an A, never seen such destruction to all concerned so I do have a honest want to get a better understanding.

 

As for caring for them, again it is my predisposition. I knowingly went into this and you don't turn off wishing someone the best simply because you didn't get what you wanted.

 

I initially started the thread out of shear frustration with the bashing that seems to continuously go on against both parties and wanting to openly speak to both to see both sides.

 

I have learned from it, and will continue I am sure.

 

It also strengths my position to fully understand the other side... up until the last posts I have made little mention of MM because frankly this is now about me.

 

And to be honest, I also think it can assist a BS to actually hear the OW's perspective. As you said a MM lies, and has proven that. So for those sitting assuming they know, there are woman who while respectfully and empathic ( I hope) can also assist the BS in making a decision based on knowledge rather than only based on the WS and their choices.

[bentnotbroken]

Meaning no disrespect to the AP here on LS, how could I glean anything from the AP who assisted in my family's demise. How could I believe anything they say, since they come from the same deceit as the WS? It is in their best interest(just as it is for a BS and WS)to skew the facts to tip the scales in their favor.

[Sanafa]

Meaning no disrespect to the AP here on LS, how could I glean anything from the AP who assisted in my family's demise. How could I believe anything they say, since they come from the same deceit as the WS? It is in their best interest(just as it is for a BS and WS)to skew the facts to tip the scales in their favor.

 

I understand that and I guess it depends on the OP and their intent.

 

But I find it difficult that any BS could take the WS word on the relationship with the OP. So, how do you make a clear and precise decision when you are not giving the choice to have the other side share their view?

 

If this was anything other than marriage and three people were involved in the demise of anything all sides would be heard and the one making the decision would choose their path.

 

I do understand what you are saying though. I have seen many OP on these forums that would simply use it to their benefit but in fairness to all

 

No marriage is exactly the same

 

No DDay is exactly the same

 

and

 

No OP is exactly the same

 

So when seeing the OW Point of view here or anywhere for that matter it does give you tools to either ask the hard questions or perhaps think of things you would not have.

 

I know I have. Listening to BS has given me the ability to decipher a lot and face that all I knew may not have been enough.

[jwi71]

I have made little mention of MM because frankly this is now about me.

 

What about you?

 

In my experience, speaking in generalities is pointless as affairs are always deeply personal. And it is understanding the various views as applied to YOUR affair is what will provide YOU the most benefit and understanding.

 

My suggestion...start a new thread and tell us your story. Ask questions. Hear responses. This academic discussion is only somewhat relevant as generalities NEVER apply to specifics...

[Sanafa]

What about you?

 

In my experience, speaking in generalities is pointless as affairs are always deeply personal. And it is understanding the various views as applied to YOUR affair is what will provide YOU the most benefit and understanding.

 

My suggestion...start a new thread and tell us your story. Ask questions. Hear responses. This academic discussion is only somewhat relevant as generalities NEVER apply to specifics...

 

Thanks JWI

 

I wish I could, and have sat here reading for about 2 weeks but I can't. No matter how much I make the situation generic it would be nearly impossible and this is a public board where you can view all.

 

Because of how our DDay played out, I can't risk further repercussions.

 

Honestly, I would love to have the input as most know it can be a battle in your own mind for months, but for everyone involved I really can't share enough to have fair advice given, hence my generalized questions.

 

I am getting something out of it, maybe not as much but I am.

[angie2443]

What about you?

My suggestion...start a new thread and tell us your story. Ask questions. Hear responses. This academic discussion is only somewhat relevant as generalities NEVER apply to specifics...

 

Good advice. I suggest you take it. Good luck.

[Sanafa]

Good advice. I suggest you take it. Good luck.

 

No offense Angie, but all 3 or 4 of your posts have done nothing to add to the discussion. Several have contributed.

 

May I suggest if this thread isn't of your liking you find one that may interest you?

 

I have explained why and if people do not wish to participate without details I am willing to accept that however your little blips are unnecessary.

[jwi71]

Thanks JWI

 

I wish I could, and have sat here reading for about 2 weeks but I can't. No matter how much I make the situation generic it would be nearly impossible and this is a public board where you can view all.

 

Because of how our DDay played out, I can't risk further repercussions.

 

Honestly, I would love to have the input as most know it can be a battle in your own mind for months, but for everyone involved I really can't share enough to have fair advice given, hence my generalized questions.

 

I am getting something out of it, maybe not as much but I am.

 

Cop-out.

 

Plain and simple.

 

Really, how did your (and its not your dday, its the BS's dday...you always knew of the A) that was so good/bad/destructive/whatever that cant be shared? Sorry...not buying it...this isnt about secrecy...my take is you are so afraid of being attacked, you clam up and hide behind generalities and "cant talk about it".

 

The ppl that get any real measure of growth or education are those who open up and not keep secrets (within reason of course...we dont expect real names).

 

Otherwise Im out...(big threat I know...ha!)

[Sanafa]

Cop-out.

 

Plain and simple.

 

Really, how did your (and its not your dday, its the BS's dday...you always knew of the A) that was so good/bad/destructive/whatever that cant be shared? Sorry...not buying it...this isnt about secrecy...my take is you are so afraid of being attacked, you clam up and hide behind generalities and "cant talk about it".

 

The ppl that get any real measure of growth or education are those who open up and not keep secrets (within reason of course...we dont expect real names).

 

Otherwise Im out...(big threat I know...ha!)

 

Ok, I am not going to go the route of answering to people.

 

This is a public board correct? Anyone can search it ( especially those just out of an A/ the MM or the W) and anyone can access it.

 

Our situation was an outing....plain and simple in MASS proportions. How you ask? The wonderful world of the internet!

 

I am not about to share openly my feelings for MM, what our relationship was, how I feel about what has happened, as the potential to have that thrown in BS or MM for that matter is there.

 

Regardless for those that contributed ( Phoenix/Gamman) and a few others I do thank you for your points of view and appreciated your honest responses.

 

My apologies to the others who believe I do not belong here because I can't share all the gory details.

[bentnotbroken]

I understand that and I guess it depends on the OP and their intent.

 

But I find it difficult that any BS could take the WS word on the relationship with the OP. So, how do you make a clear and precise decision when you are not giving the choice to have the other side share their view?

 

If this was anything other than marriage and three people were involved in the demise of anything all sides would be heard and the one making the decision would choose their path.

 

I do understand what you are saying though. I have seen many OP on these forums that would simply use it to their benefit but in fairness to all

 

No marriage is exactly the same

 

No DDay is exactly the same

 

and

 

No OP is exactly the same

 

So when seeing the OW Point of view here or anywhere for that matter it does give you tools to either ask the hard questions or perhaps think of things you would not have.

 

I know I have. Listening to BS has given me the ability to decipher a lot and face that all I knew may not have been enough.

 

 

I did listen to OW and I didn't believe a word that came from her mouth, nor anything that came from Mr. Messy's mouth. My decision was based on what was best for me and my children and I honestly didn't give a pig's patooty if it caused either of them harm, discomfort or public humiliation. Those were all consequences of their choice not to involve me and ask my opinion before the A, so I didn't feel any obligation to ask their opinions about my reaction to their actions. I can honestly say I didn't need to understand a destructive action. As long as it is done and so many people are caught in the fallout, their sides are irrelevant...IMO

[angie2443]

No offense Angie, but all 3 or 4 of your posts have done nothing to add to the discussion. Several have contributed.

 

May I suggest if this thread isn't of your liking you find one that may interest you?

 

I have explained why and if people do not wish to participate without details I am willing to accept that however your little blips are unnecessary.

 

I didn't mean to upset you:). I'm out.

[Sanafa]

I didn't mean to upset you:). I'm out.

 

Sorry Angie... didn't mean to bark

 

But it is frustrating for people to assume I am hiding because I am afraid of being told off, etc

 

I had to be general, and regardless of whether people who don't know understand, I don't have much of an option.

 

Sorry again for snapping at you....wasn't my intention either.

[boldjack]

Sorry OP, but your approach in the original post, that you are trying to be dispassionate, doesn't ring true. An Affair is such a polarizing issue, that the only way to be emotionless, is to have never been involved in one. You were a participant, therefore your views are prejudiced. IMO

[Unguardiant]

I don't understand the acronyms - what is the WS, BS, and Fog??

[bentnotbroken]

I don't understand the acronyms - what is the WS, BS, and Fog??

 

 

WS=wayward spouse

CS=cheating spouse

BS=betrayed spouse

AP=affair partner

fog=the fantasy that surrounds the secrecy of an affair. Many think it clouds the judgment and does not include the realities of day to day life. I can't tell you what I believe it is without getting an infraction.

[MWC_LifeBeginsAt40]

Many of the original poster's questions can have more than one answer. From reading these forums, I believe it depends on the reasons for the affair to begin with. It's not black and white (I know Chrome would disagree, but let's ignore him). Of the hundreds of reasons that lead up to an affair, I've broken the actual affair starters down into three types.

 

It could be an exit affair, it could be a WS giving in to temptation as an addiction that has always been with them (porn, wandering eyes, lack of self control, etc etc), and then there are affairs that develop slowly over time that start out as emotional affairs.

 

I've noticed that most BS's here that are able to forgive and move on with working on the marriage are the latter two. These are most often the ones where the AP comes back begging for forgiveness and mostly when there are kids involved.

 

The Exit affairs usually happen once the decision to leave has been made, but they just need that extra pull to get out of the door.

 

It is the exit affair I think that makes the BS "appear" to lose their self as there is really nothing they can do to change their WS's mind. They appear desparate and needy, it truly brings out the worst while they feel they are doing the right thing to try and make something work where there is a very small percentage chance that it will. They hang on with everything they've got, and often in this case, while it makes the WS feel worse for leaving (understandable), it does not give them any reason to stay.

 

Your thoughts?

[Gamine]

Many of the original poster's questions can have more than one answer. From reading these forums, I believe it depends on the reasons for the affair to begin with. It's not black and white (I know Chrome would disagree, but let's ignore him). Of the hundreds of reasons that lead up to an affair, I've broken the actual affair starters down into three types.

 

It could be an exit affair, it could be a WS giving in to temptation as an addiction that has always been with them (porn, wandering eyes, lack of self control, etc etc), and then there are affairs that develop slowly over time that start out as emotional affairs.

 

I've noticed that most BS's here that are able to forgive and move on with working on the marriage are the latter two. These are most often the ones where the AP comes back begging for forgiveness and mostly when there are kids involved.

 

The Exit affairs usually happen once the decision to leave has been made, but they just need that extra pull to get out of the door.

 

It is the exit affair I think that makes the BS "appear" to lose their self as there is really nothing they can do to change their WS's mind. They appear desparate and needy, it truly brings out the worst while they feel they are doing the right thing to try and make something work where there is a very small percentage chance that it will. They hang on with everything they've got, and often in this case, while it makes the WS feel worse for leaving (understandable), it does not give them any reason to stay.

 

Your thoughts?

 

One cannot underestimate the power of a midlife crisis (MLC) for men as well as women in this equation. A need to regain their feelings of sexual power and attraction; insecurities, feelings of loss of 'being in love with love', temptation, the 'humdrum' of a long term marriage... can all play into this state of self doubt. At 48 I totally understand this. My husband, approaching 50, flipped out.

 

From what I have read on the many forums I have also seen a pattern in men and women in this state of MLC flux make choices for the 'self'. I don't know if it emerges from a belief that they have set themselves aside for so very long... or what the deal is. However, speaking for myself I believe that if the individual allowed themselves to get past this stage through serious self work and introspection they could avoid mistakes with long term consequences in their lives.

 

I am a strong advocate of never making life changing decisions with enduring outcomes when facing internal changes and challenges.

[NoIDidn't]

Sorry OP, but your approach in the original post, that you are trying to be dispassionate, doesn't ring true. An Affair is such a polarizing issue, that the only way to be emotionless, is to have never been involved in one. You were a participant, therefore your views are prejudiced. IMO

 

I agree. So far there has been lots of talk about how the BS has low self-esteem and for taking him back and blah blah blah.

 

And then attacking the concept of the "fog" as if it couldn't possibly be true. Its highly likely the OP is still in the affair partner fog herself.

 

I'm sorry, but I can't see how she is looking for both sides views when she is clearly only presenting one as valid - hers. And I can understand that, because that's what most of us do until we are truly in a position and have matured and healed enough (and moved far enough away from the situation) to even consider the other's side without rushing to defend our own sides.

 

Plus the near complete agreement with the current OW that are posting on this thread, shows that the OP is still only able to see this through "her" side.

 

Regardless, I do hope she gets what she is looking for from this thread AND I hope she gets what she didn't seek as well. Too bad she won't share more of her story with us.

[MWC_LifeBeginsAt40]

One cannot underestimate the power of a midlife crisis (MLC) for men as well as women in this equation. A need to regain their feelings of sexual power and attraction; insecurities, feelings of loss of 'being in love with love', temptation, the 'humdrum' of a long term marriage... can all play into this state of self doubt. At 48 I totally understand this. My husband, approaching 50, flipped out.

 

From what I have read on the many forums I have also seen a pattern in men and women in this state of MLC flux make choices for the 'self'. I don't know if it emerges from a belief that they have set themselves aside for so very long... or what the deal is. However, speaking for myself I believe that if the individual allowed themselves to get past this stage through serious self work and introspection they could avoid mistakes with long term consequences in their lives.

I am a strong advocate of never making life changing decisions with enduring outcomes when facing internal changes and challenges.

 

The old mlc. We get so caught up in fantasy, and make bad decisions. I don't wish to put any blame on BS, I read another thread on this, but my exH stood by and allowed me to make bad decisions, and I stood by and allowed him to as well. We did not act like we were in a partnership/ friendship/ marriage, we did not have each other's back, and let our married life crumble.

 

All I had to do was sneak up on him when he left our bed to do his "thing" on the computer. All he had to do was fight for me and our marriage. Asking to "cuddle" 3 weeks before possession of my house (3 months after the separation decision) is NOT what i consider fighting for the marriage.

 

There was no fog in my decision to leave. It was purely an Exit affair. His MLC continued as I believe he was glad to be rid of me so he could play all he wanted. I never though of myself as a BS - I always felt like I was the only one doing anything wrong.

[Reggie]

I have not read the entire thread. But, I agree with some of the things you said. may be all.

As regards the fog, I do not think Wss neccessarily are in some fog and believe most know exactly what they are doing. I think they fail to consider the consequences, most times. however. So, they act nuts when busted.

I do not believe all OM/OW suffer from low self esteem. Many seem quite narccissistic, although some expert think narcissism is rooted in low self esteem. But, to me, many seem tosimply lack integrity. And, much like the WS do not seem to have the ability to see the conswquences both to themselves and to others.In general, the OW/OMs strike me as less thoughtful and rational. Combine that with low integrity, and you have a person willing to engage with a married person.

I do beleive that WSs are doing exactly what they want and feel some primitive form of love for their affair partners. Again, the way they feel seems more like the kind of "love" we see in adolescents. I think much of it is the excitement of new romance combined with the forbidden nature of the relationship.

[NoIDidn't]

I have not read the entire thread. But, I agree with some of the things you said. may be all.

As regards the fog, I do not think Wss neccessarily are in some fog and believe most know exactly what they are doing. I think they fail to consider the consequences, most times. however. So, they act nuts when busted.

I do not believe all OM/OW suffer from low self esteem. Many seem quite narccissistic, although some expert think narcissism is rooted in low self esteem. But, to me, many seem tosimply lack integrity. And, much like the WS do not seem to have the ability to see the conswquences both to themselves and to others.In general, the OW/OMs strike me as less thoughtful and rational. Combine that with low integrity, and you have a person willing to engage with a married person.

I do beleive that WSs are doing exactly what they want and feel some primitive form of love for their affair partners. Again, the way they feel seems more like the kind of "love" we see in adolescents. I think much of it is the excitement of new romance combined with the forbidden nature of the relationship.

 

Ouch! Yikes.

 

I read somewhere the narcissists actually suffer from too much self-esteem though. That self-importance and inability to feel empathy for others supports that theory for me.

 

But, still, ouch! "less thoughtful and rational" Ouch.