Questions for both sides

[Reggie]

Yes, NoI. The common idea of narcissism falls along the lines you describe. I've done some reading by a guy by the name of Ricahrd Skerrit. He is a layperson, an engineer that was dealing with a disordered wife, bery abusive.

He has a very good e-book out called "Meaning from Madness". I think I recommended it to Athena. He feels that contrary to the common belief that NPDs have too much self esteem, the disorder has its roots in self loathing. Thus the need to appear flawless and the abuse comes from their efforts to keep their flawless image intact by abusing their families to make them tow the line.

You see, NPDs view their families as extensions of themselves. Thye do not rcognize each members independence and uniqueness. So, when a kid or spouse does something that these folks irrationally feel damages their flawless image, they go nuts on the person they view as an extension of themselves.

I saw this many times with my second wife, a complete NPD who devotes herself to keeping up her physical appearnace and her image as a perfect mom.

If one of our kids got sent to the principal for doing something relatively innocuous, like talking in line, she raged and tried to punish the child severely or shamed the child and gave the silent treatment. She would do the same with me or her stepkids.

Ironically, in contrast to her own life, which included affairs with married men as a college student, sleeping with her highschool soccer coach while a kid, bouncing checks all over the place and quitting college her senior year and sending home fake transcripts while shacked up with a married man, me and the kids were angels.

It does not show itself, as she seems to be in love with herself to the exclusion of others, but, I do think she hates who she is. At least i hope she does, as most who really get to know her cannot stand her.

[foreal]

Being accountable for our actions beyond the impulsive satisfaction of our hedonistic needs makes us responsible beings. Mate poaching individuals were found to be un-conscientious, unfaithful and narcissistic. The primary concern with their own pleasure may have blinded the mate poachers from personal introspection.

 

Full article here:

 

http://www.relationshipmatters.com/i...-partner..html

 

I think Ow/OM who go after a MM/MW with the intent to snag them and keep them (not necessarily for themselves always, but sometimes just to keep them away from the BS) fall into the above category this article addresses.

 

Is there any doubt that someone who knowingly goes after a MM/MW with the hope/intent of having the MM/MW for themselves, or to at least WIN them away from the BS, are people who are incredibly lonely in their heart?...somewhere along the way they got Fu**ed up and have been unable or unwilling to look within..so they keep searching in inappropriate ways to fill their void without regard to others. I don't think they even realize it is wrong b/c it 'feels' so right in their lonely heart.

 

of course this is just MHO

[Reggie]

I agree, foreal. Something very sad about these folks. They are badly messed up with little to offer.

[foreal]

[quote name=Sanafa

 

BS or AP - many use manipulating and threatening tactics to stay involved either in the marriage or the affair.... why is one better than the other?

 

Neither are better than the other..both are filling a void-

 

sometimes their voids mirror each other (if both APs are M, both want exit As yet cannot bring themselves to do the right thing and end the M, for ex)..and sometimes their voids are different: one feels depressed, neglected in the primary R (the M) yet doesn't want to end the M; while the other is simply a poacher....as many combos exist as there are As!

 

In any case, they are missing something within to be able to do this to THEMSELVES..yes they are selfish, self serving in their behaviors, but again, these are people who cannot or will not look within- to feel love of Self..instead they search for "love" of NEED...the need to fill the void which only THEY can fill...but they just don't know how and/or are unable or unwilling to do the work to find Self love.

 

I don't think all OW/OM/WS are evil, but I do think they all share a quality of profound sadness, whether they can admit that or not. It is a sad person who can subject themselves to such pain and knowingly subject others to it as well.

 

again, just my opinion.

[Sanafa]

I agree. So far there has been lots of talk about how the BS has low self-esteem and for taking him back and blah blah blah.

 

And then attacking the concept of the "fog" as if it couldn't possibly be true. Its highly likely the OP is still in the affair partner fog herself.

 

I'm sorry, but I can't see how she is looking for both sides views when she is clearly only presenting one as valid - hers. And I can understand that, because that's what most of us do until we are truly in a position and have matured and healed enough (and moved far enough away from the situation) to even consider the other's side without rushing to defend our own sides.

 

Plus the near complete agreement with the current OW that are posting on this thread, shows that the OP is still only able to see this through "her" side.

 

Regardless, I do hope she gets what she is looking for from this thread AND I hope she gets what she didn't seek as well. Too bad she won't share more of her story with us.

 

Can you read or are you simply incapable of comprehending. I tended to agree with Gammon and Phoniex as much if not more than with any other woman's post.

 

I can see both sides, why is that so surprising? I didn't say I was perfect, in fact anything from it but to see the MM assuming he knows what the OW/BS enough to judge, that is something.

 

What I said initially was - It is very easy for outsiders to look at both and it is a common occurrence to have the BS/OW focus on each other. I said did not ATTACK the concept of Fog ( read it again). What I said was was it is just as probably post DDay.

 

If you are going to pick apart my posts please quote me properly, much appreciated.

[Sanafa]

Neither are better than the other..both are filling a void-

 

sometimes their voids mirror each other (if both APs are M, both want exit As yet cannot bring themselves to do the right thing and end the M, for ex)..and sometimes their voids are different: one feels depressed, neglected in the primary R (the M) yet doesn't want to end the M; while the other is simply a poacher....as many combos exist as there are As!

 

In any case, they are missing something within to be able to do this to THEMSELVES..yes they are selfish, self serving in their behaviors, but again, these are people who cannot or will not look within- to feel love of Self..instead they search for "love" of NEED...the need to fill the void which only THEY can fill...but they just don't know how and/or are unable or unwilling to do the work to find Self love.

 

I don't think all OW/OM/WS are evil, but I do think they all share a quality of profound sadness, whether they can admit that or not. It is a sad person who can subject themselves to such pain and knowingly subject others to it as well.

 

again, just my opinion.

 

This coming from someone who just posted a thread with the sole purpose to bash the Other woman?

 

Seriously, I wish you no ill will and I can only speak from my experience. BOTH take crumbs. The idea that the Other woman only get's a bit, may be correct in some A's but I can tell you that I was a priority, right up there with his children. I spent far more downtime with him then the BS, did not have rose colored glasses on and in my situation, he didn't lie. He was not leaving and could not for several reasons.

 

I understand it is easier to blame an outside party or even hate.... but I assure you that if that is the course taken, it will happen again.

 

The OW is a result of a problem, argue that if you will but it is. Your focus should be on you, and your choices you now have regarding what you want based on what you know.

 

If you can make it work, all the best but please don't use typical trash to make you feel better regarding the Affair, it benefits no one.

[NoIDidn't]

Can you read or are you simply incapable of comprehending. I tended to agree with Gammon and Phoniex as much if not more than with any other woman's post.

 

I can see both sides, why is that so surprising? I didn't say I was perfect, in fact anything from it but to see the MM assuming he knows what the OW/BS enough to judge, that is something.

 

What I said initially was - It is very easy for outsiders to look at both and it is a common occurrence to have the BS/OW focus on each other. I said did not ATTACK the concept of Fog ( read it again). What I said was was it is just as probably post DDay.

 

If you are going to pick apart my posts please quote me properly, much appreciated.

 

I don't agree with your assessment of my post, but I do think my tone was a poor choice.

 

I do feel that you attacked the concept of the affair fog. The affair fog exist during the affair, period. Its not just present after d-day. Its the reason that many MPs get caught cheating. Their thinking and reasoning is just off.

 

But my tone was bad, so I apologize for putting you on the defensive.

[NoIDidn't]

Yes, NoI. The common idea of narcissism falls along the lines you describe. I've done some reading by a guy by the name of Ricahrd Skerrit. He is a layperson, an engineer that was dealing with a disordered wife, bery abusive.

He has a very good e-book out called "Meaning from Madness". I think I recommended it to Athena. He feels that contrary to the common belief that NPDs have too much self esteem, the disorder has its roots in self loathing. Thus the need to appear flawless and the abuse comes from their efforts to keep their flawless image intact by abusing their families to make them tow the line.

You see, NPDs view their families as extensions of themselves. Thye do not rcognize each members independence and uniqueness. So, when a kid or spouse does something that these folks irrationally feel damages their flawless image, they go nuts on the person they view as an extension of themselves.

I saw this many times with my second wife, a complete NPD who devotes herself to keeping up her physical appearnace and her image as a perfect mom.

If one of our kids got sent to the principal for doing something relatively innocuous, like talking in line, she raged and tried to punish the child severely or shamed the child and gave the silent treatment. She would do the same with me or her stepkids.

Ironically, in contrast to her own life, which included affairs with married men as a college student, sleeping with her highschool soccer coach while a kid, bouncing checks all over the place and quitting college her senior year and sending home fake transcripts while shacked up with a married man, me and the kids were angels.

It does not show itself, as she seems to be in love with herself to the exclusion of others, but, I do think she hates who she is. At least i hope she does, as most who really get to know her cannot stand her.

 

This makes sense, to me. I forgot about how NPDs have that tendency to only value people for the reflection they leave about themselves.

[2sure]

So many OW have asked: How can BS still want him after D-Day or even "I would never stay with a man who cheated"

 

So many OW are sure of the MM's crappy home life because its quite possible she has been told the truth. Given that, the OW often feels that it is she and MM that have the more honest relationship. And while the relationship exists that may very well be true.

 

To assume that the BS stays after D-Day because she feels her H has chosen her, or refuses to see the truth is nonsense.

 

When a woman finds out her H has cheated on her, the FIRST thought in her mind is: HE DOESNT LOVE ME ANYMORE/HE WANTS OUT. Most initially blame and question themselves before turning on H or OW. Getting past those thoughts, getting past leaving or throwing him out is very very difficult.

It requires the couple to come to a turning point. This turning point is made, either way, without the AP. D-Day doesnt mean things go back to the way they were. It means the ending of two relationships: OW and MM's and the relationship previously shared by WS and BS. D-Day and the turning point it brings means a NEW relationship for WS & BS. It may mean as divorced parents or it may mean creating a whole new life together for the marriage.

 

For most women who ultimately stay with a man who cheated - she has to KNOW that he loves her, not just the kids. She has to KNOW that OW was a symptom, and she has to KNOW he wants to correct his mistake.

For the WS who goes back to an unhappy marriage: He wanted change. He got it. Not only that , but the fact that his wife has decided to love him now that she knows all of the ugly truth...OW cant compete with that kind of love.

 

I'm not saying its right for everyone, but its one perspective.

[Sanafa]

I don't agree with your assessment of my post, but I do think my tone was a poor choice.

 

I do feel that you attacked the concept of the affair fog. The affair fog exist during the affair, period. Its not just present after d-day. Its the reason that many MPs get caught cheating. Their thinking and reasoning is just off.

 

But my tone was bad, so I apologize for putting you on the defensive.

 

Again, please stop throwing your opinion as the right one. "The affair fog exist during the affair, period"

 

I did not say it doesn't exsist, but that it is PROBABLY that it continues for a long time after DDay.

 

All I ask is that if you are going to quote me, you do it accurately and fairly. You suggested I was quick to agree with the OW who posted, I was quicker and more often agreed with Gammon and Phoenix, who are BS.

 

It had nothing to do with your tone, it had to do with sticking to the facts.

 

As for the posts here referring to Naracissisim, again.... can we please stop sitting in judgement, it is pathetic to see comments as " I agree, I feel bad for these people"

 

Those in glasses houses shouldn't cast stones.

 

Regardless of being the OW/BS or the MM/MW, we can all take our responsibilties. The BS has NO knowledge and is the only one out of control prior to DDay, from there on in, we are all adults and few if any of us are perfect.

 

For those MM/MW.... I am sure you can relate to the millions of people out there who would say you are nothing but scum for your part and that "once a cheater, always a cheater".

 

It does NO good to continue to bash each other with societies close minded opinions that for the most part are from those that have never been in any of our shoes.

[boldjack]

Sanafa, I still stand by my post. You and I, as ex OW/OM's, can't possibly be objective.

[Sanafa]

So many OW have asked: How can BS still want him after D-Day or even "I would never stay with a man who cheated"

 

So many OW are sure of the MM's crappy home life because its quite possible she has been told the truth. Given that, the OW often feels that it is she and MM that have the more honest relationship. And while the relationship exists that may very well be true.

 

To assume that the BS stays after D-Day because she feels her H has chosen her, or refuses to see the truth is nonsense.

 

When a woman finds out her H has cheated on her, the FIRST thought in her mind is: HE DOESNT LOVE ME ANYMORE/HE WANTS OUT. Most initially blame and question themselves before turning on H or OW. Getting past those thoughts, getting past leaving or throwing him out is very very difficult.

It requires the couple to come to a turning point. This turning point is made, either way, without the AP. D-Day doesnt mean things go back to the way they were. It means the ending of two relationships: OW and MM's and the relationship previously shared by WS and BS. D-Day and the turning point it brings means a NEW relationship for WS & BS. It may mean as divorced parents or it may mean creating a whole new life together for the marriage.

 

For most women who ultimately stay with a man who cheated - she has to KNOW that he loves her, not just the kids. She has to KNOW that OW was a symptom, and she has to KNOW he wants to correct his mistake.

For the WS who goes back to an unhappy marriage: He wanted change. He got it. Not only that , but the fact that his wife has decided to love him now that she knows all of the ugly truth...OW cant compete with that kind of love.

 

I'm not saying its right for everyone, but its one perspective.

 

While I agree with most of what you are saying, I think it is impossible to assume all marriages are like this and that all BS will need certain things.

 

My own A aside, I am well aware and close to two couples -- one who is trying to rebuild the marriage, and the other couple who are content to make it work for OTHER reasons.

 

I also don't think there are many MM/MW who don't love their BS, that just isn't the case. They do love them and if OW/OM think differently than they are fooling themselves, much like those BS who think the OW wasn't cared for or was just being used. ( I am speaking about long affairs and not ONS)

 

Do I think there are just as many MM/MW who after the pain from the DDay realize they can make what they have work...... Absolutely - but can you be for certain they are not sacrificing or doing it because it is easier than the shame/guilt associated with failing.

[taylor]

Is there any doubt that someone who knowingly goes after a MM/MW with the hope/intent of having the MM/MW for themselves, or to at least WIN them away from the BS, are people who are incredibly lonely in their heart?...somewhere along the way they got Fu**ed up and have been unable or unwilling to look within..so they keep searching in inappropriate ways to fill their void without regard to others. I don't think they even realize it is wrong b/c it 'feels' so right in their lonely heart.

 

This is so much closer to reality than what you posted on another thread regarding "The Other Woman."

 

I can relate very well to what you have written here with regard to my own EA.

 

My OM still had gaping emotional wounds from his divorce from his wife...his first love, married young, two kids, later abandoned to raise the kids alone.

 

He met a woman 3 months after the ink dried on his divorce papers and moved her into his home with his kids 3 months later. The relationship..you can imagine.. was rocky.

 

One day I asked him why he moved her in so quickly as I was concerned about the effect it would have on his kids. He said he was lonely..hadn't had sex for 1.5 years...was tired of struggling to raise the kids..tired of not having an adult to talk to..be with...wanted someone to love him.

 

I asked him if he loved her. He said, 'No, I'm still in love with my first wife. I'll never stop loving her. But I hate her. I wish she was dead." He went on to say that every person close to him in his life had let him down..there was no one he could lean on or reach out to.

 

I told him my relationship left me feeling lonely and empty as well.

 

By the time we shared this information with each other, we were in a full-blown emotional affair, having already reached out to each other in a moment of weakness/vulnerability.

 

After D-day, we admitted to each other that our loneliness/emptiness inside made us both vulnerable and agreed this vulnerability fueled the connection, making us behave in ways we normally would not.

[Sanafa]

Sanafa, I still stand by my post. You and I, as ex OW/OM's, can't possibly be objective.

 

You could be dead on about that.

 

I actually thought if everyone could realize the zillion of assumptions made not just about the OW/OM but about the BS, we could actually see each other as human.

 

And fantasy... perhaps, but I have always believed their are two sides ( in this case 3 sides to every story) and by closing ourselves off.... we aren't helping ourselves or anyone else.

 

I do hear you though and my frustration with some placing judgement is starting to seep through..... so, perhaps it best to let it go.

[Reggie]

I don't think it is neccessary to have walked in another's shoes to see something is wrong or missing from the person. Our conduct does define us, IMO.

I, too, am highly skeptical about the alleged state of mind of a WS. I think both WSs and BSs cling to the fog concept as a way of trying to mitigate intentional decisions(redundant, I know) to hurt others or simply ignore the effects of their actions on others.

I believe that many WSs do feel love or lust for their affair partners and have chosen the affair partner over the spouse. I also think that they painc, sometimes, when discovered and attempt to avoid responsibility by promoting the fog concept.

Most of us have been in live at some point in our lives and not acted as dishonorably to pursue that love as a WS. There are just some fundamental differences in how deeply people hold to their values and their word. You can see this in all types of transactions. I think people that have affairs have less integrity and are not as trustworthy.

[Reggie]

You could be dead on about that.

 

I actually thought if everyone could realize the zillion of assumptions made not just about the OW/OM but about the BS, we could actually see each other as human.

 

And fantasy... perhaps, but I have always believed their are two sides ( in this case 3 sides to every story) and by closing ourselves off.... we aren't helping ourselves or anyone else.

 

I do hear you though and my frustration with some placing judgement is starting to seep through..... so, perhaps it best to let it go.

 

We constantly use our judgement to conduct our lives. It would be irresponsible not to.

When one sees someone cheating or who has cheated , one can draw some pretty accurate conclusions about certain aspects of that person's character and that person's values. Same as in any other aspect of life. Some people cross lines and go back on their word easier than others. One has to take this inot consideration in dealing with these folks. Thus, judgement is approriately made.

The decison to cheat is a very clear indication that promises or respect for others are not all that important to the person.

[Sanafa]

We constantly use our judgement to conduct our lives. It would be irresponsible not to.

When one sees someone cheating or who has cheated , one can draw some pretty accurate conclusions about certain aspects of that person's character and that person's values. Same as in any other aspect of life. Some people cross lines and go back on their word easier than others. One has to take this inot consideration in dealing with these folks. Thus, judgement is approriately made.

The decison to cheat is a very clear indication that promises or respect for others are not all that important to the person.

 

 

Perhaps, but by making those assumptions are you not in fact saying... " This is who they are and will continue to be, you are making judgments about a person's character and values".... If that is the case, how is it remotely possible for recovery?

[NoIDidn't]

Again, please stop throwing your opinion as the right one. "The affair fog exist during the affair, period"

 

I did not say it doesn't exsist, but that it is PROBABLY that it continues for a long time after DDay.

 

All I ask is that if you are going to quote me, you do it accurately and fairly. You suggested I was quick to agree with the OW who posted, I was quicker and more often agreed with Gammon and Phoenix, who are BS.

 

It had nothing to do with your tone, it had to do with sticking to the facts.

 

As for the posts here referring to Naracissisim, again.... can we please stop sitting in judgement, it is pathetic to see comments as " I agree, I feel bad for these people"

 

Those in glasses houses shouldn't cast stones.

 

Regardless of being the OW/BS or the MM/MW, we can all take our responsibilties. The BS has NO knowledge and is the only one out of control prior to DDay, from there on in, we are all adults and few if any of us are perfect.

 

For those MM/MW.... I am sure you can relate to the millions of people out there who would say you are nothing but scum for your part and that "once a cheater, always a cheater".

 

It does NO good to continue to bash each other with societies close minded opinions that for the most part are from those that have never been in any of our shoes.

 

I'm with boldjack on this. I apologized for my tone, but that's about it. I stand by the rest of what I said. Especially because of the above.

 

When one wants the other side, they are asking for OPINIONS. What is so hard about that?

[Sanafa]

I'm with boldjack on this. I apologized for my tone, but that's about it. I stand by the rest of what I said. Especially because of the above.

 

When one wants the other side, they are asking for OPINIONS. What is so hard about that?

 

Opinions are yours, posting them as fact is different, and rather frustrating.

 

BTW, it wasn't boldjack that quoted me wrong...... you did.

[Reggie]

I do think people can change and become better people. I come at this as a BS who has been through this in two marriages. I feel for the purposes of self preservation, I must look at the histories of any potential partner.

In both my marriages, I had knowledge(although limited) that my XWWs had been OWs prior to my involvement. I chalked it up to youthful stupidity.

Then, I started to think about my own life and the lives of my closest friends. We were all far from perfect, but there were certain lines we would never cross.

Many of my close guy friends were really good college athletes, as was I. And, we had access to a lot of female attention as young men. But, none of us ever would cross that line into infidelity.

If you take infidelity out of the equation, I have observed that the folks that I know who have crossed that line are, almost across the board, crossing integrity lines in other areas of their lives, routinely.

But, I agree, some folks do have an epiphany and leanr from their mistakes. It seems very few do the right thing upon realizing the damage they have done to others, however. To me, the right thing is to go to the person wronged, own one's actions and apologize and make restituion. I beleive boldjack did this , to some extent, and I respect that about him.

So, if you cheated, learned and feel remorse, what, exactly, have you done to make things right(er).

[Reggie]

Opinions are yours, posting them as fact is different, and rather frustrating.

 

 

 

I think , we can presume,that when one states something on this board, it is merely his/her opinion. Most of this stuff is not susceptible of factual verification. Nothing wrong with generalizing, as , to do otherwise , would require hours of accounting for the exceptions.

In general, can we agree that the fog hass been described by many WSs as a genuine phenomenon occuring while they are cheating, as well as for a period of time after discovery.

For whatever reason, not having actually been inside the mind of a WS, I have doubts about the severity of the impairmant to their judgement as opposed to their behavior being an actual reflection of who they are at that point in their lives.

 

BTW, it wasn't boldjack that quoted me wrong...... you did.

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Sanafa]

I do think people can change and become better people. I come at this as a BS who has been through this in two marriages. I feel for the purposes of self preservation, I must look at the histories of any potential partner.

In both my marriages, I had knowledge(although limited) that my XWWs had been OWs prior to my involvement. I chalked it up to youthful stupidity.

Then, I started to think about my own life and the lives of my closest friends. We were all far from perfect, but there were certain lines we would never cross.

Many of my close guy friends were really good college athletes, as was I. And, we had access to a lot of female attention as young men. But, none of us ever would cross that line into infidelity.

If you take infidelity out of the equation, I have observed that the folks that I know who have crossed that line are, almost across the board, crossing integrity lines in other areas of their lives, routinely.

But, I agree, some folks do have an epiphany and leanr from their mistakes. It seems very few do the right thing upon realizing the damage they have done to others, however. To me, the right thing is to go to the person wronged, own one's actions and apologize and make restituion. I beleive boldjack did this , to some extent, and I respect that about him.

So, if you cheated, learned and feel remorse, what, exactly, have you done to make things right(er).

 

 

I appreciate that and can understand coming from the other side why your guard would be high but I also think you nailed it when you said you have to be aware of your past choices so you can avoid them.

 

To be honest, I have done what has been asked of me. I certainly have thought of speaking with the W, however I also respect that not every ( actually very few) want to speak to the OW. They both know I am open to it and if she should want to, I will speak with her and apologize directly. The only thing I can do, is respect their and our need for NC.

 

While that is all I can "do" in this situation, it doesn't mean I haven't learned, realized that I have to re-evaluate how I got here ( on a personal level) and make changes to ensure it doesn't happen again. I am the "typical" never thought OW......so, I am not stupid to think I have nothing to work on, I have tons.

 

I wish them well, in our situation our DDay was catastrophic in discovery, not only about the Affair but his past history, and I know they have a mountain to climb. That is difficult believe it or not, because with that I know not only will they experience pain but their children and I do have to take my responsibility in that, always knowing I played a part in many people being hurt for a very long time.

 

Not a shining moment by any stretch.

[Sanafa]

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

See what happens when someone throws a third in the mix:p

 

I was referring to him quoting me about the fog only in DDay ( I didn't say that) and also that he made a factual statement that I continual agreed with the OW who had posted, when in fact I was agreeing with two BS more often than not.

 

Regardless, opinions are one thing, stating "fact's" not once but a couple and then throwing in a " I agree with someone" to firm it up is just as bad.

[Reggie]

Believe me, I have had my share of less than shining moments. We are ever evolving, hopefully. And, I really had to look long and hard at the choices I made in marital partners. I focused way too much on the external. I ignored warnings from my frinds and family as well as ignored behaviors I could see pre marriage.

[NoIDidn't]

Opinions are yours, posting them as fact is different, and rather frustrating.

 

BTW, it wasn't boldjack that quoted me wrong...... you did.

 

I didn't misquote you. I feel that you were attacking the concept of the affair fog. While you are certainly entitled to that opinion, I disagreed with it.

 

I didn't post anything as a fact. I posted my opinion. Its one thing to disagree, and quite another to assume I was doing something that I wasn't.

 

I haven't judged you for engaging in an affair with a MM once in this exchange. I didn't read your post to me because it started as an attack on the opinion that I posted. So I used the word "period" after it? Big deal. IMO, Santa Claus doesn't exist, period. I hardly see that as a judgment on those that believe in him.

 

You are assigning judgments that I have not made in this thread to me. And calling me closed-minded.

 

How is it that you came to see both sides but really only seem interested in those that might reinforce your own side? Forget that you have agreed with some that aren't OW in this thread. It still seems that you have a very skewed view and aren't really willing to budge on that.