Questions for both sides

[Sanafa]

How is it that you came to see both sides but really only seem interested in those that might reinforce your own side? Forget that you have agreed with some that aren't OW in this thread. It still seems that you have a very skewed view and aren't really willing to budge on that.

 

How many times have you suggested this?

 

I'm sorry, but I can't see how she is looking for both sides views when she is clearly only presenting one as valid - hers. And I can understand that, because that's what most of us do until we are truly in a position and have matured and healed enough (and moved far enough away from the situation) to even consider the other's side without rushing to defend our own sides.

 

Plus the near complete agreement with the current OW that are posting on this thread, shows that the OP is still only able to see this through "her" side.

 

Up until your contribution I did not once "rush to defend my own side". Your first post was to suggest I could not see another side...and continued throughout with ever additional post you have made.

 

You stated

Plus the near complete agreement with the current OW that are posting on this thread, shows that the OP is still only able to see this through "her" side.

 

It shows NOTHING... I had agreed FAR MORE with the BS, and this does appear that you are trying to show your side ( I can't possibly be fair) far more and far quicker than I attempted with you.

[NoIDidn't]

Fog-

 

Depending on what board you refer to this predominately is in reference to the WS that they were apparently feeling during the affair.

 

Is it not possible that they actually knew what they were doing?

 

That they did have a clear understanding?

 

Is it even remotely possible that the fog is actually the weeks/months following DDay when guilt, shame and in some situations threats are being thrown about at record speed. The decision the WS makes during that time (either to stay or go )must be clouded, far too many emotions for it not be.

 

Is it not far more rational to say that for all three the Fog is after DDay when all parties have there lives turned upside ( some more deserving than others, I get that)

 

This is what you said, and this is what I am responding to. You feel that the fog is after d-day instead of a mindset that is just part and parcel of the affair by itself.

 

Sorry OP, but your approach in the original post, that you are trying to be dispassionate, doesn't ring true. An Affair is such a polarizing issue, that the only way to be emotionless, is to have never been involved in one. You were a participant, therefore your views are prejudiced. IMO

 

This is boldjack's post, and he didn't quote you at all, so saying that he didn't misquote you isn't possible when he didn't quote you at all.

 

I agree. So far there has been lots of talk about how the BS has low self-esteem and for taking him back and blah blah blah.

 

And then attacking the concept of the "fog" as if it couldn't possibly be true. Its highly likely the OP is still in the affair partner fog herself.

 

I'm sorry, but I can't see how she is looking for both sides views when she is clearly only presenting one as valid - hers. And I can understand that, because that's what most of us do until we are truly in a position and have matured and healed enough (and moved far enough away from the situation) to even consider the other's side without rushing to defend our own sides.

 

Plus the near complete agreement with the current OW that are posting on this thread, shows that the OP is still only able to see this through "her" side.

 

Regardless, I do hope she gets what she is looking for from this thread AND I hope she gets what she didn't seek as well. Too bad she won't share more of her story with us.

 

I am quoting my entire post because I didn't quote you in it at all. You are making a false statement when you continue to claim that I did. You claim I misquoted you, when I didn't even quote you. I even wished you well in this thread, even though I disagreed with you.

 

I apologized for my tone, but I don't even see where my tone could have made you say that I did something where I am proving here that I didn't. Either you came here to get both sides or you only want to hear posts that support what you are able to believe right now. I don't have a problem with either. But I do have a problem with the fact that you aren't telling the truth about my post and continue to do so when the facts show that that didn't happen as you say.

[NoIDidn't]

Up until your contribution I did not once "rush to defend my own side". Your first post was to suggest I could not see another side...and continued throughout with ever additional post you have made.

 

I can't see how you came to this conclusion. That you "rushed to defend your own side". I never even said that.

 

You are an expert at reading between the lines. But you are seeing things that aren't there. I can assure you of that. And that's the danger of reading between the lines. It creates a new narrative, one that sometimes wasn't even intended.

 

You don't have PMs yet, so we can't continue this off board. So, I will drop it for now, unless, when you get PMs you wish to send me one.

[Sanafa]

Let's move on...shall we

 

I am skewed, and you are balanced well enough to determine that.

 

Seriously, come on

 

I'm sorry, but I can't see how she is looking for both sides views when she is clearly only presenting one as valid - hers. And I can understand that, because that's what most of us do until we are truly in a position and have matured and healed enough (and moved far enough away from the situation) to even consider the other's side without rushing to defend our own sides.

 

I might be stupid, but I am not blind.

[NoIDidn't]

Let's move on...shall we

 

I am skewed, and you are balanced well enough to determine that.

 

Seriously, come on

 

[/b]

 

I might be stupid, but I am not blind.

 

Ahhh, so I did say that. I re-read my post several times and missed that gem. But you weren't complaining about that originally.

 

Nonetheless, you still attributed other things that I did not say to my post. I never quoted you. But you don't want to address that. Its cool.

 

We can move on.

 

I never said that I was completely balanced. But I am not recently coming out of an affair or just recently finding out that I was betrayed. You might not agree, but I think I do a pretty good job of seeing both sides - even if I lean a little more to one side on some parts of things.

 

Can we start over now? We have gone off on a tangent, but I do find the posts in this thread interesting. Shake?

[Sanafa]

Can we start over now? We have gone off on a tangent, but I do find the posts in this thread interesting. Shake?

 

Agreed and I wasn't going to quote but it was right above, couldn't help myself.

 

But in all seriousness, when I started this thread, I didn't even really say my personal opinion ( I know some may not believe it) but really was throwing out " could it not be, or how about this" more because of all the reading and views I have seen since beginning on these boards.

 

I know people will say I can't possibly be neutral and I am not, but i do believe I can hear both sides and my main goal was to show how easy it is to throw everyone in a pot and say " All OW are evil" or "All BS are weak"....

 

It is so easy to get caught up in it, especially right after DDay because the emotions are running over but I like that we were politely sharing different opinions.

 

Lots of things have been said in this thread that made me think... seriously and I guess I only hoped that we would all figure out we were human and perhaps not how we first would appear when labeled MM/MW/OW/OM/BS

[Reggie]

I may have missed it, but the original post seemed to me to be merely a query re certain possibilities existing. I did not see it as advocating one view or another.

[tami-chan]

I actually agree with the above poster---I, too, did not see the OP advocating either view. Carry on, Sanafa, you are making sense to me and I like that you are trying very hard to be fair and honest.

[Sanafa]

Thanks guy's...although I admit, I did start to get more defensive the last few pages.

 

There is no question I have view's/ opinions based on my personal experience, we all do.

 

But the last two weeks reading and reading and reading tells me that we are still stuck in being right.... in general than trying to actually understand anyone.

 

We ( myself included) want to be right, the problem with humans were we were built with emotion, basic needs and you know the last time I checked those core needs haven't changed and I have yet to meet anyone that doesn't have them.

 

No one is perfect all the time, we make mistakes but if we could just learn to listen to each other and try to put the shoe on the other foot...... god, it might make understanding, forgiving, accepting someone for who they are, etc etc so much easier. (and no I am not talking about murder's, pedophiles or serial cheaters here) just in case someone wants to make more out of my statement.

 

I am talking about otherwise moral, caring individuals who simply let their emotions and needs direct them. Chemistry is a fact, it is a chemical reaction.... not a mind or a body, a chemical reaction, combine that with humans and things will never be black and white.

[Impudent Oyster]

 

Most will not believe me, but I have never been in a R with a MM prior to this and had no desire to cause the destruction that did happen with Discovery ( yes, I know I am still responsible)..

 

I believe you, big deal, I'm almost 50 and I've never been in a R with a MM despite the many "opportunities" to do so and the multitude of MM who've hit on me. Many, MANY women with self-respect and self-esteem are able to stand their ground and maintain their dignity.

 

Fog-

 

Depending on what board you refer to this predominately is in reference to the WS that they were apparently feeling during the affair.

 

Is it not possible that they actually knew what they were doing?

 

That they did have a clear understanding?

 

Sure it's possible. They knew exactly what they were doing, they just didn't think in a million years that they'd get caught. That's why they're so careful about keeping you hidden, get it?

 

.

The decision the WS makes during that time (either to stay or go )must be clouded, far too many emotions for it not be.

 

LOL, I see you're hoping MM will come to his senses and realize that he can't live without you. Don't hold your breath.

 

Judgement on the OW

 

For having such low self respect to have an affair. Could many not turn that around and say the BS has just as little?

 

This is ridiculous. The BS didn't have an affair, the BS didn't do anything wrong, the BS didn't lie or cheat or sleep with another woman's husband...how could you possibly imply that they have no self-respect?

 

Both the OW/OM and the BS often go to the ends of the earth for the Cheating MM so is one really better than the other?

 

Huh? BS "go to the ends of the earth" for the cheating MM? On what planet? I threw mine out and he had to earn the right to reconcile.

 

Is it possible that they still love and thier choice to go outside the marriage while wrong may have been at the time thier way of doing the right thing? Many people love each other without having chemistry but as humans being loved, being intimate is a need.

 

It's entirely possible but their choice to go outside the marriage has nothing to do with anyone but themselves and their issues. WS are selfish and need the ego, self-esteem boast the OP gives them. The OP could be anyone, they aren't special, they're just a tool used by the WS to provide what's lacking. If it wasn't you it would be any woman who told him what he wanted to hear to fix whatever was broken with HIM.

 

It also has nothing to do with his wife. If you educated yourself on why people have affairs you'd realize this. It has nothing to do with the spouse and nothing to do with the OP, it's all about the WS.

 

If a person is not getting their needs met in a marriage, they get divorced. There is only one reason a person doesn't get divorced, and it is NOT because of the kids. It's because they don't want to. Any other excuse is just that.

 

BS or AP - many use manipulating and threatening tactics to stay involved either in the marriage or the affair.... why is one better than the other?

 

Baloney, manipulation and threats don't work. You can't "threaten" someone to stay married to you, further, no one in their right mind would want to stay married to someone who didn't want to be there. Someone is feeding you a line that only a dummy would believe.

[Impudent Oyster]

.

I do agree about "us" having the advantage of knowledge. When DDay happened it really was earth shattering for all of us, BUT we always knew it "could" so of course our level was nowhere near the BS

 

Wow...this is VERY telling and VERY delusional on your part.

 

"we" always knew it could and "our" level is nowhere near the BS? Do you see how you are assuming that you and he are a couple and his wife is the outsider? You are NOT a couple, he is MARRIED.

 

It was earth-shattering for your MM because he was in danger of losing the most important relationship in his life - with his wife!

 

He and his wife are a couple, you were a temporary distraction. You had a d-day, he chose his wife, you can't accept that and are still trying to rationalize his decision by thinking his judgment is clouded and he's not thinking clearly.

 

Get help. I suggest that you get therapy, because if you continue with this mindset you're liable to become a bunny-boiler.

 

No joke.

[Impudent Oyster]

.

 

No one is perfect all the time, we make mistakes but if we could just learn to listen to each other and try to put the shoe on the other foot...... god, it might make understanding, forgiving, accepting someone for who they are, etc etc so much easier. ..

 

How long did you make this "mistake"? How many weeks, months or years?

[silktricks]

 

Fog-

 

Depending on what board you refer to this predominately is in reference to the WS that they were apparently feeling during the affair.

 

Is it not possible that they actually knew what they were doing?

 

That they did have a clear understanding?

 

Is it even remotely possible that the fog is actually the weeks/months following DDay when guilt, shame and in some situations threats are being thrown about at record speed. The decision the WS makes during that time (either to stay or go )must be clouded, far too many emotions for it not be.

 

Is it not far more rational to say that for all three the Fog is after DDay when all parties have there lives turned upside ( some more deserving than others, I get that)

 

in some cases, possibly. In my case, definitely not. My H told me about it and was already in the process of ending the affair. It literally took him years to fully understand the reasons it happened.

Judgement on the OW

 

For having such low self respect to have an affair. Could many not turn that around and say the BS has just as little? I was never lied to, in my situation he didn't pretend he would leave and we both knew why that was. But for so many BS to call the OW/OM unconfident, needy, etc is that not hypicritical?

I don't believe the ow in my case was unconfident or needy. I believe she was supremely confident and was completely certain of herself.

Both the OW/OM and the BS often go to the ends of the earth for the Cheating MM so is one really better than the other?

 

And finally ( for now) is it even remotely possible that the MM/MW was doing the best they could?

 

Is it possible that they still love and thier choice to go outside the marriage while wrong may have been at the time thier way of doing the right thing? Many people love each other without having chemistry but as humans being loved, being intimate is a need.

 

So, if all is ok with the family core ( they are still friends, still have sex occassionally) is it even remotely possible that instead of the "cake and have it to theory" they are actually trying to be honorable and maintain the commitment they took while choosing to have their basic needs met as well?

 

Not taking sides, throwing some of the many thoughts out there that I have had the last week or so.

one of those vows they took said "forsaking all others" so obviously they are not honoring the vows. The idea that they love is not impossible, of course, but they are pursuing a relationship with B when already in one with A. At the very least that is quite shoddy treatment towards the person they already vowed to love, honor and cherish.

BS or AP - many use manipulating and threatening tactics to stay involved either in the marriage or the affair.... why is one better than the other?

I used no tactics. My husband begged me to forgive him. Cried bitterly over what he had done, asked for mc and proved to me that he wanted me to stay with him. Though I would have been sad, had HE not made all the first moves in showing that HE wanted to stay married to me, we would now be divorced.

[silktricks]

 

But I find it difficult that any BS could take the WS word on the relationship with the OP. So, how do you make a clear and precise decision when you are not giving the choice to have the other side share their view?

 

.

 

This is very true and VERY tough. Because, how can you also take the OP's word, when it is completely obvious they are willing to do anything (and by extension probably say anything) in an effort to break up your marriage.

 

So who do you trust? If you are even considering attempting to rebuild the marriage.

 

When it comes down to it, you trust the subsequent actions of your spouse - it's the only thing that carries any real weight.

[silktricks]

I actually thought if everyone could realize the zillion of assumptions made not just about the OW/OM but about the BS, we could actually see each other as human.

 

there are also zillions of people who have affairs (well, millions anyway). Probably all of the assumptions that are made do fit some of those people some of the time. They just don't fit everyone all of the time. And we are all human - normal everyday flawed humans who make mistakes and keep on keepin' on.

 

and that's also true of the WS, not just the OP and BS...

[Lizzie60]

I didn't read the whole thread.. just the first posts.. but this caught my attention:

 

Just to clarify the one point I was trying to make, again in no judgment. OW tend to be the one consider settling, taking "leftover's".

 

I think the one who is settling is the W... because once her H tastes the excitement of the A... it will never stop... he will always crave the sex, the attention, the excitement, the 'newness', the sexual rush... etc...

 

The OW (in my case anyway and I'm sure in many other cases as well) doesn't have to live with the 'doubts', the pain, etc... she sees him once in a while.. have fun.. then she can go back to her life.. until she sees him again.. no crap, no pain, no nothing.. just the fun part..

 

So.. who's settling.. who gets the 'leftover'... methink it's the W..

[Impudent Oyster]

.

I used no tactics. My husband begged me to forgive him. Cried bitterly over what he had done, asked for mc and proved to me that he wanted me to stay with him. Though I would have been sad, had HE not made all the first moves in showing that HE wanted to stay married to me, we would now be divorced.

 

 

Exactly. I think that this is the case for all couples who reconcile.

 

I think the OP would like to believe that her ex-MM is being coerced and threatened into staying with his wife, and that once the "fog" has lifted, he will realize that he loves her.

 

Not likely.

[Impudent Oyster]

I didn't read the whole thread.. just the first posts.. but this caught my attention:

 

Just to clarify the one point I was trying to make, again in no judgment. OW tend to be the one consider settling, taking "leftover's".

 

.attention, the excitement, the 'newness', the sexual rush... etc...

 

The OW (in my case anyway and I'm sure in many other cases as well) doesn't have to live with the 'doubts', the pain, etc... she sees him once in a while.. have fun.. then she can go back to her life.. until she sees him again.. no crap, no pain, no nothing.. just the fun part..

 

So.. who's settling.. who gets the 'leftover'... methink it's the W..

 

 

Whatever get's you through the night Lizzie....

[Impudent Oyster]

.

 

I think the one who is settling is the W... because once her H tastes the excitement of the A... it will never stop... he will always crave the sex, the attention, the excitement, the 'newness', the sexual rush... etc...

 

.

 

Hey, you know what's an even bigger rush?

 

Imagining coming home to a cold apartment and only seeing your kids on "your" days. Seeing your wonderful wife with her new boyfriend, and watching him take her and your kids on a swell vacation, imagining your wife dating and making love to her new BF, maybe teaching her some new moves, dividing up all the things you've built over the many years together and selling your dream home. That's exciting.

 

That's a real rush.

[Lizzie60]

Hey, you know what's an even bigger rush?

 

Imagining coming home to a cold apartment and only seeing your kids on "your" days. Seeing your wonderful wife with her new boyfriend, and watching him take her and your kids on a swell vacation, imagining your wife dating and making love to her new BF, maybe teaching her some new moves, dividing up all the things you've built over the many years together and selling your dream home. That's exciting.

 

That's a real rush.

 

Or maybe he's already with the 'new rush' in a brand new apart.. starting his new life.. and he gets the 'break' from the kids one week out of 2.. (I've heard that before and not from my MMs) ...

 

I agree that some guys do lose material stuff... and their comfortable life with their kids.. etc.. but not all... some actually are better off on their own..

[PhoenixRise]

I didn't read the whole thread.. just the first posts.. but this caught my attention:

 

Just to clarify the one point I was trying to make, again in no judgment. OW tend to be the one consider settling, taking "leftover's".

 

I think the one who is settling is the W... because once her H tastes the excitement of the A... it will never stop... he will always crave the sex, the attention, the excitement, the 'newness', the sexual rush... etc...

 

The OW (in my case anyway and I'm sure in many other cases as well) doesn't have to live with the 'doubts', the pain, etc... she sees him once in a while.. have fun.. then she can go back to her life.. until she sees him again.. no crap, no pain, no nothing.. just the fun part..

 

So.. who's settling.. who gets the 'leftover'... methink it's the W..

 

Perhaps this is the case for you.

 

BUT

 

From what I read in the OW/OM forum this is far from the norm. It seems that many OW/OM do feel doubts, heartbreak, pain, uncertainty and get lied to on a regular basis. It seems like many of them are not having that much fun and do indeed feel like they are not being made a priority.

 

AND as far as the "who is getting leftovers" bit....

 

I think that is just a silly competitive game that people (mostly women) play to make themselves feel better about whatever decisions they make .

 

It is like saying, ok nobody is getting a full meal here but at least I got a little bit more than YOU did.

 

Frankly, no woman should settle for less than they are worth and some women need to realize that they are worth more than they are settling for.

[Lizzie60]

Perhaps this is the case for you.

 

BUT

 

From what I read in the OW/OM forum this is far from the norm. It seems that many OW/OM do feel doubts, heartbreak, pain, uncertainty and get lied to on a regular basis. It seems like many of them are not having that much fun and do indeed feel like they are not being made a priority.

 

AND as far as the "who is getting leftovers" bit....

 

I think that is just a silly competitive game that people (mostly women) play to make themselves feel better about whatever decisions they make .

 

It is like saying, ok nobody is getting a full meal here but at least I got a little bit more than YOU did.

 

Frankly, no woman should settle for less than they are worth and some women need to realize that they are worth more than they are settling for.

 

I agree with most of your post.. it sure does look like a competition sometimes...

 

I also agree that no woman should settle.. I think that, in MOST cases, the only one getting the full meal.. is the H...

[PhoenixRise]

I agree with most of your post.. it sure does look like a competition sometimes...

 

I also agree that no woman should settle.. I think that, in MOST cases, the only one getting the full meal.. is the H...

 

 

Lizzie

 

On this point, you and I are in complete agreement.

[NoIDidn't]

So why does the OP generally not see the BS as human? Same for the BS to the OP?

[bentnotbroken]

Or maybe he's already with the 'new rush' in a brand new apart.. starting his new life.. and he gets the 'break' from the kids one week out of 2.. (I've heard that before and not from my MMs) ...

 

I agree that some guys do lose material stuff... and their comfortable life with their kids.. etc.. but not all... some actually are better off on their own..

 

 

Several studies found this to be true. The income of about 60% of divorcing father's goes up. I am sure some of that is due to the deadbeat dad's who don't pay anything at. And they showed that the income of of women typically goes down. I am sure this includes the fact that women usually having lower paying jobs, not always providing insurance or day care assistance. I am sure there are many factors that contribute to these trends.