2.50 a gallon Posted August 2, 2009 Posted August 2, 2009 Lisa I hope you are beginning to realize that you are not to blame. This was his failing. There was nothing that my fiance could have done or said at that time that could have reached the demon within me.
2.50 a gallon Posted August 2, 2009 Posted August 2, 2009 Lisa I am curious, does the book mention panic attacks? I had my first one a couple of months after we got engaged. It was years later that I finally realized that the engagement party was probably the trigger.
Author LisaUk Posted August 2, 2009 Author Posted August 2, 2009 Lisa I am curious, does the book mention panic attacks? I had my first one a couple of months after we got engaged. It was years later that I finally realized that the engagement party was probably the trigger. This is very much what the book is concerned with, anxiety, panic attacks when a deeper comittment is wanted by the other person. It's a very good book and I would recommend it to you if you think there is a possibility that you have commitment issues, it goes on (I think, haven't finished it yet), to help you cope and deal with them also. Until a person admits they have this issue and learns how to deal with it they will NEVER have a healthy and fulfilling relationship with anyone, EVER. They may think they will "when I meet the right person, all my fears will go away" except they won't because it isn't about the other person, and the CP will start the whole process of reationalisation again. It's very difficult to except that this wasn't about me or anything I did because he gave so many excuses that blamed me. However, the book has explained that this is his way of reationilsing his own comitment conflicts. If you think you are suffering with it I would strongly urge you to read the book and see a therapist, although you didn't intentionally mean to cause your finacee pain, believe me this has hurt me more than I can convey with words. (If you do read it, I would love to hear your thoughts, perhaps it will help me to let go).
tojaz Posted August 2, 2009 Posted August 2, 2009 It is very good, there is a whole chapter on "I love you but..." very eye opening really, at least it was for me. This is very much what the book is concerned with, anxiety, panic attacks when a deeper comittment is wanted by the other person. It's a very good book and I would recommend it to you if you think there is a possibility that you have commitment issues, it goes on (I think, haven't finished it yet), to help you cope and deal with them also. Until a person admits they have this issue and learns how to deal with it they will NEVER have a healthy and fulfilling relationship with anyone, EVER. They may think they will "when I meet the right person, all my fears will go away" except they won't because it isn't about the other person, and the CP will start the whole process of reationalisation again. It's very difficult to except that this wasn't about me or anything I did because he gave so many excuses that blamed me. However, the book has explained that this is his way of reationilsing his own comitment conflicts. If you think you are suffering with it I would strongly urge you to read the book and see a therapist, although you didn't intentionally mean to cause your finacee pain, believe me this has hurt me more than I can convey with words. (If you do read it, I would love to hear your thoughts, perhaps it will help me to let go).
2.50 a gallon Posted August 2, 2009 Posted August 2, 2009 Lisa I have no need of the book. In my case recovery began about 6 months after she left when I finally found the right doctor who was prescribed a medicine that cured my panic attacks. Since then I was able to get engaged a second time, she had my problem and took off, a third time, which included a disasterous marriage. I was fully committed, with ballons of children, home and family in my head. My present I am fortunate to be in love with and share my life with my GF of 14 years. Total commitment, no fears. Did you notice, I said "in love with", Recovery is possible
Author LisaUk Posted August 2, 2009 Author Posted August 2, 2009 Oh, Ok I see. Could I just mention something to you that I noticed about your post? Do you think you went from active avoider to passive avoider, that you choose a CP the second time to avoid commitment in a passive way? Or was it coincidence? You then had a marriage that was disastorous, but didn't end because of commitment issues either passive ones on your part or active on her part? You now have an LTR of 14 years, but haven't married again but you feel it is fully commited? You also mentioned on another thread that you have been the OM many times? I don't mean to presume or cause offense but commitment issues can play out passively. That is the active avoider seeks out unavaliable women so they no longer have to avoid commitment because it never comes up! I could be way out of line here, just something about your first post then now your relationship history, but then I am very sensitive to this at the moment. Sorry if I am wrong. Thank you for posting, it means a lot to me, I'm really struggling because I keep beating myself up, so it helps when someone who has been where my ex is can provide some perspective. Thank you.
silverfish Posted August 3, 2009 Posted August 3, 2009 I don't understand why saying you are in love with someone is a sign of 'recovery'. It is possible for the worst commitment phobe to declare undying love while still remaining uncommitted (14 years??) Lisa I've followed your thread for a while and I've been in a place similar to yours. I wish you could love yourself a bit more - your self esteem is on the floor right now and I know how that feels. The way this man has treated you has little to do with you. Its more about lack of boundaries you have IMO and that was my problem for a long time. I wish my ex had left me in a way, but I ended up leaving him because he humiliated me and I still have pride if nothing else. I also have 2 boys and I could see that panning out badly - it took a lot of self preservation for me to leave him. I never got my answers and I never will. The last attempt at closure on my part with my ex ended up with him throwing a drink over me and trying it on with one of my best friends. I have given up trying to work him out because it's a waste of energy & time. I made myself ill over him and I realised that if I look back at our whole relationship I could have seen it coming from probably the first month if I'd listened to my gut. He hasn't changed.....I have though - I like myself now!
tojaz Posted August 3, 2009 Posted August 3, 2009 I don't understand why saying you are in love with someone is a sign of 'recovery'. It is possible for the worst commitment phobe to declare undying love while still remaining uncommitted (14 years??) Lisa I've followed your thread for a while and I've been in a place similar to yours. I wish you could love yourself a bit more - your self esteem is on the floor right now and I know how that feels. The way this man has treated you has little to do with you. Its more about lack of boundaries you have IMO and that was my problem for a long time. I wish my ex had left me in a way, but I ended up leaving him because he humiliated me and I still have pride if nothing else. I also have 2 boys and I could see that panning out badly - it took a lot of self preservation for me to leave him. I never got my answers and I never will. The last attempt at closure on my part with my ex ended up with him throwing a drink over me and trying it on with one of my best friends. I have given up trying to work him out because it's a waste of energy & time. I made myself ill over him and I realised that if I look back at our whole relationship I could have seen it coming from probably the first month if I'd listened to my gut. He hasn't changed.....I have though - I like myself now! Lisa, Listen to her! I seem to remember a good looking gu saying something very similar not to long ago. WHo was that?:rolleyes: Understanding the hows or the whys will never change the end result. This is a trap I fell into myself, I believe you had a front row seat for that Lisa, To put it blunt and American, To hell with him! This is about you now! TOJAZ
Author LisaUk Posted August 3, 2009 Author Posted August 3, 2009 I don't understand why saying you are in love with someone is a sign of 'recovery'. It is possible for the worst commitment phobe to declare undying love while still remaining uncommitted (14 years??) Lisa I've followed your thread for a while and I've been in a place similar to yours. I wish you could love yourself a bit more - your self esteem is on the floor right now and I know how that feels. The way this man has treated you has little to do with you. Its more about lack of boundaries you have IMO and that was my problem for a long time. I wish my ex had left me in a way, but I ended up leaving him because he humiliated me and I still have pride if nothing else. I also have 2 boys and I could see that panning out badly - it took a lot of self preservation for me to leave him. I never got my answers and I never will. The last attempt at closure on my part with my ex ended up with him throwing a drink over me and trying it on with one of my best friends. I have given up trying to work him out because it's a waste of energy & time. I made myself ill over him and I realised that if I look back at our whole relationship I could have seen it coming from probably the first month if I'd listened to my gut. He hasn't changed.....I have though - I like myself now! Thank you Silverfish, I think I needed to try and make sense of this whole thing because I just didn't see it coming. Like you said, when I go back over our whole relationship there are indicators of his CP there, I'm still doing this at the moment and I haven't quite got it all clear yet. One thing I have thought is that because I met him when I was 15, I did not have the knowledge or maturity to spot the signs, with no comparision and no emotional maturity how do you know what is acceptable and what isn't? Of course that would not have been an issue had he not have had intimacy issues. Looking back, it was there, I just didn't see it. I know there can be paraylisis in analysis, yet it helps to know what happened, like you said I didn't set boundaries, I can see looking back, I allowed him to contorl everything about our relationship, the pace, the level of intimacy, the commitment, I felt a huge amount of frustration. It always felt like he would not reciprocate, everything was hard work, asking for him to meet my needs or work on anything in the relationship felt like banging my head against a brick wall. I can see now, this is where I should have set boundaries. Of course he would have walked all over them and that means I would have had to walk away from him a lot earlier. At least now I can see that no matter what I did or what I could have done, he was unable to have an adult relationship. His CP would not allow him to compromise, to compromise is to give up a part of yourself or your need to freedom, to consider another goes against every part of a CP's desires. He actually said "I want someone who is as independant as I am, so I can do as I like when I like and just come together to spend time with that person when we both feel like it" in other words, I want to have my cake and eat it. I want to do as I please without considering another persons feelings and have intimacy when I want it. That is not a relationship.
2.50 a gallon Posted August 4, 2009 Posted August 4, 2009 Lisa I have a problem making long posts, so will have to break up you answers in several posts. I have not read the book, so I do not know the definitions of active / passive avoider. When the fiance and I met, she was in the financial business. She was dating a couple of guys, neither serious. Both were suits. I was blue collar machine operator who prefered blue jeans, raggedy shirt and cowboy boots. I took me about a month to wangle a date with her, and then it was to be only as friends. It was an early morning, before sunrise date, I took her fishing. We clicked on the first date and I totally forgot my first thoughts about "Not now, I am already happy" A year later, we decide to get engaged and begin looking at rings. I have the talk with the father. Two weeks later our happy families throw us an engagement party. But I have been working so many hours we haven't yet selected the rings. Another month of hard 12 hour 7 days a week goes by Tomorrow we are going to go shopping for rings. But tonight is meant for love, wind, candles. A beautiful rain storm appears at sunset, we get out the camera to record the scene, something to remember when we are old and gray. As I am shotting the picture the thought that the clouds are going to cover me freaks me out. Absolute total terror, like death knocking on the door. It was my first panic attack I was a border line adrenaline junkie. I had tried parachuting, rock climbing, and at that time was the owner and driver of a forumula race car. And now I am afraid of a cloud? The waves of terror, did not subside, in fact they got worse. This was 30 years ago and answers were hard to come by. After about a year of searching with counselors, therapist, doctors, we finally found the commitment demon living with in me. It was still years later before I put 2 and 2 together and realized, that it was the engagement that set off my panic attacks.
2.50 a gallon Posted August 4, 2009 Posted August 4, 2009 Me as an OM You say OM, like it is something evil. Not all OM's are necessarily bad. They can be the guy who can give a woman a male's P. O. V. They can be the guy who can explain why men like sports. They can be the guy who teaches them with checkers the nuances of football so they can enjoy the game with their H, They can be the guy who tells them they are obsessing over something trivial that their H did. They can be the trusted friend who when they confide their attraction to another man, who tells them you are making a mistake. They can be the guy who listens to them when their H won't Twice it was my apartment that a neighbor ran to after the H beat them up for the last time and gave them a safe place until the police and paramedics arrived. I was the OM who saw a man push his young wife and 2 year old child out of his pickup into the cold rain at one in the morning. And I was the OM who stopped and told her to get in I will get you to safety as he made a U-turn to come back at them. I was the OM who let his wife sleep in my bed after the police left. I slept on the couch. I am not trying to say I am snow white clean, just pointing out that an OM can simply be a male friend that a woman can talk to when life gets a little rocky
Author LisaUk Posted August 4, 2009 Author Posted August 4, 2009 Hi Gallon I never meant to imply any judgement on OM's at all. What I was pointing out is that often people who have a commitment phobia can unconsiously try to develop relationships with people who are unavailable as a passive way to avoid comittment. An active avoider of commitment is the one who runs from it, they get involved and fall in love, all the while knowing deep down, subconsiously they have comittment conflicts (like when you said "not now"), they pursue the person, then as the relationship progresses to the point of where it begins to feel "real" for the CP (in your case marriage) that's when the conflicts really start to kick in, hence your servere panic attacks. It is possible for an active avoider to become a passive avoider. A passive avoider knows deep down they have committment conflicts, so they go after realtionships they percieve as "safe", ones that have no future, one's where a commitment will never be an issue, such as a married person, another active CP. The passive avoider may be convinced they don't have CP and may push for commitment, but deep down they know it is safe to do so because they know given the person they have choosen, it will never become "real". A lot of what you describe about your relationship history fits the pattern of active/passive CP, even the way you describe the thunderstorm date with your fiancee. To me that what was like ready a romantic novel, highly romantic and verging on fantasy like porportions. That is also a key characteristic of CP. Commited realtionships are based on reality, knowing and accepting that a person is a real human being, with flaws and faults and knowing that any relationship takes hard work and dedication to make it work, being able to resolve problems, accepting the ups with the downs, knowing that you have taken this option and not feeling closed in by it, not wondering constantly about other options you have closed off. Only then can two people experience true intimacy. In other words, CP is as much about saying not being able to say no as it is about being able to say yes. It's a great book Gallon, give it a read, it may just open your eyes a bit further and help you if, and I stress IF, becuase I don't want to infer or presume anything about you, you still have commitment conflicts.
Author LisaUk Posted August 4, 2009 Author Posted August 4, 2009 Well, I finished the book. It was like reading about my ex, the active avoider. As his trigger of permanancy was marriage a lot of the extreme commitment conflict behaviours did not appear until the last few weeks before he walked. I'm still looking over the whole relationship in a CP context, I think it will take a bit of time to see just how far into our relationship his conflicts played a part. At least I know it was real, the relationship existed, see, a Houdini style exit kind of leaves you feeling like the whole thing never happened. It's hard to grieve a loss, when you don't know if the memories were real, if their feelings were ever real, if what you thought you had between you ever really existed. Now I know it did. Now, I hope, I can start to let go.....................
lupa Posted August 4, 2009 Posted August 4, 2009 Now, I hope, I can start to let go..................... I hope you can, too. I want to tell you something I learned about myself recently -- when I started reading divorcebusters sites and marriagebuilders and all that other stuff, I found myself compulsively focused on the situation. When I downloaded a dating book, and started reading books from my past that I liked (The Sun Also Rises), I found myself focused on that. When I started talking about separating my WANTS from my NEEDS, I found myself focused on that, and when I ran into my ex and asked her out, I now find myself thinking a lot about that. Other than meaning that I'm obsessive (lol, I'm not)...it really means that we need to find things to put our attention into, lisa, so that we can give our brains a rest. I think you need to find something outside of trying to understand your ex's fear of commitment to focus on for a while. Sadly, you can return to focusing on that any time, because it doesn't look like it is going away, but why not give your poor brain a break for a little bit?
Author LisaUk Posted August 4, 2009 Author Posted August 4, 2009 You are spot on Lupa, that's just what the last chapter of the book says also, quit thinking about what's going on in their psyche and concentrate on re-building your life and self preserving. Now I have been able to understand what happened, I think I can finally do this, I certainly hope so. I got into university today to do graduate law. I don't know whether to accept or not? Part of me wants to for many reasons and part of me doesn't because it means not earning and living with my parents for a further 2 years. Decisions......................
delajoonal Posted August 4, 2009 Posted August 4, 2009 hi lis... i am just catching up on posts... i am so glad you got that book and it is helping you adjust to the situation. like you gving me that MLC site...IT changed my whole world...really.. things like that book for you and the website for me..are a God send. so we can now try to get out of that "why are they doing this, etc.?" frame of mind and just move along with our own lives... with the MLC site, IT helped me move on to new levels within days... now don't get me wrong, i am in NO WAY cured...as a matter of fact, i havn't stopped crying in days...but i don't have that one question running thru my head anymore.. WHY DID HE DO THIS TO ME? or WHAT DID I DO TO DESERVE THIS? i am just plain ol' sad lately...memories, nostalgic for a life that once was...when my son was little and all the family gatherings... but like my marriage, so much in life has changed...people moving on, passing on, ack...so much sadness i feel lately... and i have become very attached to a bunch of strangers online..LOL.. this board, LS, i just contect with SOO many of you...and i truly feel YOUR pain as well, and i cry for ALL of you too...i mean that...i just get so sad and upset that such amazing people can be going thru so much pain that they do not deserve and that ONE person thru us away, and now we feel like we are not worthy of life (not suicide) but just anything that life has to offer...we feel like we don't have it in us to get up and just go get it! because this ONE person your H/W, or mine..has made us emotionally inept to what life has in store for us and our futures... i know, how can i say that, and still cry all the time and wonder what why this happened to me/us... i don't know...i guess it is all part of the grieving process? but thank God..truly for ALL OF YOU...and this board LS and especially a few that i have grown to admire and care for.. you all know who you are...tee hee! p.s. ok, so i went off track a bit...sorry...
lupa Posted August 4, 2009 Posted August 4, 2009 hi lis... i am just catching up on posts... i am so glad you got that book and it is helping you adjust to the situation. like you gving me that MLC site...IT changed my whole world...really.. things like that book for you and the website for me..are a God send. so we can now try to get out of that "why are they doing this, etc.?" frame of mind and just move along with our own lives... with the MLC site, IT helped me move on to new levels within days... now don't get me wrong, i am in NO WAY cured...as a matter of fact, i havn't stopped crying in days...but i don't have that one question running thru my head anymore.. WHY DID HE DO THIS TO ME? or WHAT DID I DO TO DESERVE THIS? i am just plain ol' sad lately...memories, nostalgic for a life that once was...when my son was little and all the family gatherings... but like my marriage, so much in life has changed...people moving on, passing on, ack...so much sadness i feel lately... and i have become very attached to a bunch of strangers online..LOL.. this board, LS, i just contect with SOO many of you...and i truly feel YOUR pain as well, and i cry for ALL of you too...i mean that...i just get so sad and upset that such amazing people can be going thru so much pain that they do not deserve and that ONE person thru us away, and now we feel like we are not worthy of life (not suicide) but just anything that life has to offer...we feel like we don't have it in us to get up and just go get it! because this ONE person your H/W, or mine..has made us emotionally inept to what life has in store for us and our futures... i know, how can i say that, and still cry all the time and wonder what why this happened to me/us... i don't know...i guess it is all part of the grieving process? but thank God..truly for ALL OF YOU...and this board LS and especially a few that i have grown to admire and care for.. you all know who you are...tee hee! p.s. ok, so i went off track a bit...sorry... We all can all gain strength, wisdom, and experience from everyone here.
2.50 a gallon Posted August 4, 2009 Posted August 4, 2009 Commitment w/o marriage license My GF's problems are the reason that I joined LS She has a total distrust of the legal system: police, judges, lawyers, doctors, government officials. Marriage is part of the legal system She too had a bad marriage, a lifer military man, "My way of the Highway" He turned alcoholic and abusive emotionaly and mentally. When she left him, she had to work two and sometimes a third job on the weekends to pay the rent, feed and clothe her two kids. She had no car, so had to walk over a mile to and from each job. There were no extra funds to afford an attorney. The XH left her dangling in the wind for quite some time. Finally he got brave and issued his ultimatum and gave her the divorce papers. Even though they were heavily in her favor, to his shock she promtly signed them. He then spent the next 20 years of his life trying to win her back, and never understood how she venomously hated him. Their daughter had turned into a total druggie as a freshman in high school. The dd (demon daughter) stole from the GF, stole from the neighbors, stole and wrecked the GF's car when she finally got one, she dealt in drugs, she worked as a prostitute. The GF got zero help from the system. In fact was ordered to continue to support the dd until she turned 18
2.50 a gallon Posted August 4, 2009 Posted August 4, 2009 Commitment Part 2 A few years later the dd gets pregnant and has the GF's grand daughter. GF relents, her grand daughter needs a home, and the dd moves back in with her A week after the child is born we go on our first date. Two years down the road we have the marriage talk, I tell her, "You tell me when and where and I will be there" The problem is the dd is a terrible mother, and the GF does all of the child rearing. The dd and the XH never give up on getting the GF back. At the same time we are talking of marriage, she comes home to find that her dd has invited the XH to move in with them. An argument ensues, the cops are called. The cops explain to the GF that even though her name is the only one on the lease, by permitting the dd to live with her, the dd has established legal residence, and as a legal resident, the dd has the right to invite any guest she likes into the house, and unless the XH does something illegal or begins to destroy the property, he has a right to stay for up to two weeks. Also being as this is a domestic dispute, somebody has to leave for the night. The police give the GF her choice of leaving or going to jail This would be the first domino to fall that would lead to her 21 year old son committing suicide 2 weeks later. Over the next 10 years things get even worse, marriage is no longer an option in her life. As I stated above, it is part of the system, and she has no faith in the system We are older, I am retired, she has a few years before she retires, we are never going to have kids, so what is the point of going to the trouble and spending the money for a license, preacher and changing all the legal documents for her name change? Also, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And it ain't broke
2.50 a gallon Posted August 4, 2009 Posted August 4, 2009 Lisa and Silverfish The point of the "I am in love with her" is that I had a bad marriage, and as Lisa at one point wondered whether I would be able to trust in love again. The answer is YES Also I made a mistake in the first message, the terms of her divorce were heavily in his favor. She got the kids and a little child support
delajoonal Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 wow! 2.50...your posts were pretty powerful...really made me think about my OWN life...gosh, i am sorry you too have had so much pain for so many years...and your GF...what an amazingling strong woman...no wonder you love her and want to marry her... i hope it works out for you.... i also see the point you are making with those posts about NEVER finding love again, etc...and how life is how life is sometimes we just have absolutely NO control over IT...do we ever tho:( take care...
PWSX3 Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 wow! 2.50...your posts were pretty powerful...really made me think about my OWN life...gosh, i am sorry you too have had so much pain for so many years...and your GF...what an amazingling strong woman...no wonder you love her and want to marry her... i hope it works out for you.... i also see the point you are making with those posts about NEVER finding love again, etc...and how life is how life is sometimes we just have absolutely NO control over IT...do we ever tho:( take care... The only thing we have control over is what is inside our skin & that's it. Outside of that there are just to many other factors that can change how or what we think will happen. I have to disagree, I do believe a person can find love again. I think if two people put 100% into a relationship & you help each other grow & you both use each others strong points in the marriage that it can be done. Just my .02 that's all.....hahaha
Author LisaUk Posted August 5, 2009 Author Posted August 5, 2009 Thanks for all the replies. Today is the first day of the rest of my life. Of that I am sure (well, as sure as I can be LOL). It is time, I have decided, to start thinking about me and stop thinking about what has and is going on in his Commitmentphobic psyche. Due to his Houdini style exit, I have done nothing but question myself and what I KNOW to be the reality of our relationship, I even question whether he is CP, even now, even though it is blindingly obvious to anyone with half a brain. All part and parcel of the way he left, the way he twisted everything to rationalize his own commitment conflicts, according to the book. Enough is enough. This man caused me indescribable pain. This man put me on the street with no job and no income. This man made me question myself and my own character. This man made me an escapegoat to justify his own problems. This man was cruel to me. This man has CP. This man is a COWARD. Time for me to keep remembering this, time for me to accept that I cannot and will not ever take him back, time for me to put me first and to self preserve.
KellyP Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 Congratulations Lisa, TOJAZ is going to be very proud when he reads this!! KEL
delajoonal Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 wow! lis...that was a pretty amazing post... that book and tojaz must have had some really great therapy between the 2;) it DOES help to talk/chat/email..anything you can do to get IT all out and with someone who GETS IT..right? i hope this means you are having a good day...at least some what:) you are a good person lis...just keep remember THAT!
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