travelgirl Posted June 4, 2009 Posted June 4, 2009 I had talked privately with the MC a week before this session last night and he told me that he was going to focus on the "chronic" issue with our relationship this past session to make sure my wife wasn't tuning out due to talk of the affair. I agreed that it was probably a good idea. I don't have a Phd in psych but I have gone thru this personally and have met with 2 MC's to know that in my opinion, this was the wrong approach to take. For your MC to avoid the no contact talk and talk about the overall "chronic" issues of your marriage is deflecting everything she has done wrong and you wasted a few hundred dollars telling her what she wanted to hear to justify her affair. You sat there and said, you could have been there more, she was pulling away and no one was doing/saying anything etc... and then she said "yes this is the way I felt." Um, okay but This WILL NOT make her give up this OM, this will not make her "tune in" to MC all of a sudden and it will not make her feel remorse for her actions. In your mind it should but in her foggy affair mind, you are justifying to her WHY she is with him in the first place. These are things you should be talking about in the recovery period after she has complete remorse - if you even get there. All this banter is USELESS right now - it is waste of time, money and emotions. I would call MC and say you have had enough. You aren't going to pay hundreds of dollars to talk about the chronic state of our marriage UNTIL she is on board to fix it - and she won't be unless she chooses you over the OM and since she continues to disrespect you by talking to him, there is no reason to keep coming to counseling. If he doesn't turn a 180 by his next session and hammer into her the consequences of her actions then I would look for another MC.
amerikajin Posted June 4, 2009 Posted June 4, 2009 For your MC to avoid the no contact talk and talk about the overall "chronic" issues of your marriage is deflecting everything she has done wrong If the MC starts lecturing her about her misdeeds, there's a good chance she would drop out of marriage counseling. The whole point of talking about the chronic issues is that it takes the attention off of the wife at the moment and puts both people on a level playing field in the eyes of what is essentially a neutral observer. The MC is trying to de-personalize this so that he doesn't appear biased. If he appears biased, then she'll just pull out of it at some point. If the OP wants to shop around for a marriage counselor I'm sure he can eventually find one who will tell the wife what a bad woman she is, but I doubt she'll show up for a second appointment. The counselor is trying not to take sides because it's absolutely important that he remains neutral. There might be a time when the OP has to shell out a sh*tload of money and hire a paid professional to argue his side of things in this marriage, but that's not what the counselor does in his office...that's what an attorney does...in a courtroom. The MC is trying to take the long-term view of things here. He knows damn well that this wife of his has major, major issues and he doesn't for a moment condone what's going on with his wife's affair. He was brought into this at the request of the OP who sought him out to help them save their marriage. The MC was not brought into this to lecture the wife and tell her that she's f*cked in the head. Hopefully that will reveal itself in time, but this isn't a one or two shot deal we're talking about here. Um, okay but This WILL NOT make her give up this OM, this will not make her "tune in" to MC all of a sudden and it will not make her feel remorse for her actions. I agree with this. I have the feeling that the OP will have to separate himself from her for a while in order to make the point crystal clear to her. I predict that the wife will within a 2 to 4 week period after separation end the relationship with the other man. The question at that point will become one of whether the OP has it within himself to give it one last shot. Right now, the choice is hers, but in the end I think it will be the OP's. It sucks that it's got to be his burden but that's the way this is going to unfold, I predict. In your mind it should but in her foggy affair mind, you are justifying to her WHY she is with him in the first place. These are things you should be talking about in the recovery period after she has complete remorse - if you even get there. All this banter is USELESS right now - it is waste of time, money and emotions. She could end the affair and still not feel remorse. She'll just feel coerced into ending the relationship. She could end the relationship and maybe fake her way through another month of counseling and put on an act for a few months or even a few years later. She'll end up doing it again at some point unless her feelings are genuine and, more importantly, she gets long-term life-changing help. That's why I'm more open to the MC's approach because it's non-coercive. His approach is to let the OP's wife come to her own senses, to take ownership of her own feelings and to have the internal motivation to change. That's a lot more powerful than forcing someone's hand with divorce papers, which essentially amounts to nothing more than emotional poker.
carhill Posted June 4, 2009 Posted June 4, 2009 The counselor is trying not to take sides because it's absolutely important that he remains neutral. Agree. Critical. Also, his focus is on the M. The sessions are M-centric. Ours always steered the discourse back to the M; he would point out to me the inappropriate nature of my EA, but then refocus on the M's issues and deflect any attempts on my part to defend my position or that of my W to attack it. He was very good at this. Ultimately, the important issue for the couple is their dynamic and contributions to it. With this help, clarity evolved, and, though not beneficial to the M continuing, I learned a lot, mainly about communication and boundaries. Positive experience
Author Shockedhusband Posted June 4, 2009 Author Posted June 4, 2009 Travelgirl I am going to attempt to answer you question. I talked with our marriage counselor outside of counseling and he told me that it is clear that my wife has some limits it was his goal to take her up to those limits and try not to cross them right now becuase if we go past that right now at this stage she she will not be open to truly participating in future session. That was the goal of the session yesterday. I have made a personal decision to go see our MC on my own tonight, in an attempt to get some insight and deal with some of thoughts and feelings I am having right now and hopefully help me clear my head a bit.
Owl Posted June 4, 2009 Posted June 4, 2009 Perhaps it's time for you to start INSISTING that the MC recognize and adhere to YOUR limits here too? In other words...either work to address the affair, or you're likely going to file for divorce...or find a counselor who WILL address the real issue. I get what the counselor is trying to do...but in this case, you're more likely to love what remaining love you've got for your wife and call it quits before she gets to her limits. The odds are, the counselor isn't seeing just how CLOSE your limits are.
Author Shockedhusband Posted June 4, 2009 Author Posted June 4, 2009 In our previous session we have focused on her relationship with the OM. He wanted to take a break from that this past session. That is what I was getting at
Author Shockedhusband Posted June 5, 2009 Author Posted June 5, 2009 I am so glad I made that appointment to go see our MC on my own. I got so much info and support to be strong during this bottom line approach. He was able to tell me how she would behave and what her reactions meant and I think it has given me some real mental ammo and security to not get sucked into the mental games my W is going to try an pull. My response should be like a broken record, basically restating my bottom line There are so many things that I dd not know about or even think about. Like being baited into arguments by my W about what is going on. As that is her trying to see if I still care, and how if I were to argue with her I would loose credibility in my statement of the bottom line. It was actually interesting to think about but if she fights me on this it actually a good thing. If she says nothing it signals she ready for a divorce So many pointers about what watch for and how to combat them. And by doing this and committing to this it is actually a showing of love and respect to my wife. I could try and explain that right now but I would just butcher it. I feel very strong and confident right now in my actions. I reiterated my bottom line to my wife and gave her a deadline of Friday. I told her if she wanted to talk about fixing the marriage or the divorce I was open to talk. I will serve her with papers Friday June 12, 2009 if she makes no decision, I am pot committed now and to do less than serve her I will loose total credibility If I do take one thing out of this is that human psychology is extremely interesting and I am going to be sure to really start reading up on
Owl Posted June 5, 2009 Posted June 5, 2009 Sounds like you've got a plan...which is the only way you're going to get anywhere. And I'd agree with you on the human psychology thing...I've learned a LOT since my wife's EA.
Author Shockedhusband Posted June 6, 2009 Author Posted June 6, 2009 Just thought I would give you all an update on the situation. I reaffirmed my bottom line with my wife thursday night. No contact, transparency blah blah blah and gave her until friday to make a choice. In the mean time I have moved out of the bedroom and I am sleeping in the guest bedroom. I checked the phone records and the contact continues. Today she brought up to me that while talking with girlfriend the girlfriend brought up the fact that she thought we were dysfunctional together. My wife again brought up the fact that maybe we rushed into marriage and questioned if we should have gotten married in the first place. I did not really reply to that and told her that we may come off dysfunctional because we had and have a serious communication problem. I did not respond to the marriage talk because I know its her trying to defend her position with the other guy. Still meeting with a couple lawyer monday and tuesday and I am hoping I can have papers drafted up soon after to give to my wife. The question I am finding that I am asking myself more and more is that do I really want to be with someone that has to serously think about if she wants to stay with me and work on the marriage or continue a relationship with someone else.
amerikajin Posted June 8, 2009 Posted June 8, 2009 Just thought I would give you all an update on the situation. I reaffirmed my bottom line with my wife thursday night. No contact, transparency blah blah blah and gave her until friday to make a choice. In the mean time I have moved out of the bedroom and I am sleeping in the guest bedroom. It'll be interesting to see how she begins to react to the gradual spacing, assuming you have to go further than this. I checked the phone records and the contact continues. Today she brought up to me that while talking with girlfriend the girlfriend brought up the fact that she thought we were dysfunctional together. My wife again brought up the fact that maybe we rushed into marriage and questioned if we should have gotten married in the first place. Yeah, right now it seems as though she's determined to justify herself pulling out of the relationship. I did not really reply to that and told her that we may come off dysfunctional because we had and have a serious communication problem. I did not respond to the marriage talk because I know its her trying to defend her position with the other guy. Exactly. You're doing the right thing. If she brings it up just change the subject or just end the conversation. That's pointless and you're just playing her little game if you get into that discussion. Still meeting with a couple lawyer monday and tuesday and I am hoping I can have papers drafted up soon after to give to my wife. I sense that it's coming to this. Hopefully this will make her think a little bit but it's rough going for the moment. The question I am finding that I am asking myself more and more is that do I really want to be with someone that has to serously think about if she wants to stay with me and work on the marriage or continue a relationship with someone else. Your feelings are completely understandable. Right now you're having to do all the work to keep the marriage going. What she doesn't realize is that there's only so much you can tolerate before you begin to lose the feelings for her. I think Owl touched on the dynamics of this earlier, and his description was accurte. Right now she's operating under the assumption that she's the one in control and that it's her choice to continue or end the marriage. It hasn't dawned on her yet that you will eventually make a choice yourself, and that she won't be able to walk back into the marriage. I think you're handling this the right way. You're giving her time to sort herself out but not too much. Just make sure you're ready to make those tougher decisions and stick to them.
Author Shockedhusband Posted June 8, 2009 Author Posted June 8, 2009 Thanks for the note, AJ. I can see right now that my wife has quite a bit of mental turmoil going on right now. I almost feel bad for her, she is not only dealing with this but her grandfather is on his deathbed right now. I will feel bad for her but then tell myself that this is the bed that she made. I know it sound cruel but thats the way it is. I guess the small ray of hope that my wife might be realizing that she messed up is that she actually told her sister about everything. He sister basically told her everything I have told her. She needs to get help for her depression, she needs to end everything with the OM, and she needs to be open and honest with me about everything and that it is going to take a lot of work and time to build the trust back up. I guess only time will tell if she fully realizes things, but I thought I would update those who are following things
HeidiB125 Posted June 8, 2009 Posted June 8, 2009 And the ironic thing about "her feeling like she is still in control" is that after all this comes to a head, and IF she chooses to be with you, and to work on the marriage, you may still come to realize that YOU don't want to stay in the marriage. But you'll have learned so much about yourself and handling things the right way that you'll be strong enough and grounded enough to make the right decision for YOU.
amerikajin Posted June 8, 2009 Posted June 8, 2009 I almost feel bad for her, she is not only dealing with this but her grandfather is on his deathbed right now. I will feel bad for her but then tell myself that this is the bed that she made. I know it sound cruel but thats the way it is. I know you know this already, but this cannot be a factor in your decision making. The humanitarian in you can still be compassionate for her during this tough time, but that cannot in any way affect what you do in response to behavior that is clearly out of bounds on her part. I guess the small ray of hope that my wife might be realizing that she messed up is that she actually told her sister about everything. He sister basically told her everything I have told her. She needs to get help for her depression, she needs to end everything with the OM, and she needs to be open and honest with me about everything and that it is going to take a lot of work and time to build the trust back up. And I'm guessing that she went to her sister? I think that this is potentially a watershed moment and I'll explain why. I think that if it's the case that your wife went to her sister, as opposed to you telling her sister, then it is less likely that she will feel as though it's you turning her sister against her, which is what she feels with her mother. Plus, her sister is more of a peer than her mother. Her mother is, well, mom -- an authority figure who still probably casts some kind of shadow over her. Maybe her sister is someone who can talk some sense to her and appear less biased or tainted. I hope that's the case. In the end, though, it will be up to your wife to 'woman up' and start taking responsibility for herself. She's the only person who can do that. I don't think your wife is a bad person and I think it's important for you not to see her as such. I think your wife suffers from a lot of insecurities and is going to need extensive therapy. She's not bad, but she's doing bad things and you not only have the right to stand up for yourself, you have a duty to do so. It's a fine line people walk in your situation. I think it's just important to think things out carefully. My own opinion is that sometimes, however justified people might be in being angry upon finding out their partner is cheating, the betrayed spouses often turn a situation that could possibly be salvaged into a permanent wreck by getting angry and vengeful. But at the same time, you can't be a doormat either. It's a fine line indeed...and the truth is, nobody every really has all the answers in this kind of situation.
Author Shockedhusband Posted June 8, 2009 Author Posted June 8, 2009 AJ I completely agree with you, she went to her sister on her own accord and I know for certain her sister told it to her like it is. Hopefully a wake up call for her. You are right my wife is not a bad person, I am not vengeful toward her and nor do I hate her. I hate the situation that we are in. She was not happy and instead of dealing head on with her issues she compartmentalized things and made a bad decision to find her happiness through someone else. I would completely agree that she has some serious insecurities that she needs to deal with as well as the depression. I don't think it is as simple as saying she needs to be on meds, she needs some good individual therapy. I am hoping and praying that she realizes this and decides to seek help. Even if we don't make it I am still hoping that she gets the help that she needs. Becuase I don't think she will ever be truly happy until she gets help for those things.
heartrippedopen Posted June 9, 2009 Posted June 9, 2009 hi shocked I know only too well what you're going through at the moment, my heart goes out to you. Please don't believe the words friends for a moment, i hear it all the time too. I too have read texts received on my other halfs phone (he deletes his to her) and they are full of kisses and love and alot of rude stuff At least your w doesn't let her friend into the house. I gave in to my oh letting him bring his friend around after he started arguements before i went to work and now she's started folding the washing and moving things. This ow also believes she's my partners girlfriend and he won't tell her the truth. Don't take the blame for her deciding to do this, i'm only just learning this one myself. i'm new to all this so if i've offended anyone i'm sorry i truly hope it all works out ok for you:)
Author Shockedhusband Posted June 9, 2009 Author Posted June 9, 2009 I am sorry but I just had to come on here to vent. I have been going through huge emotional swings lately. This whole process has consumed my every waking moment and lately it seems that my time awake has increased as sleep does not come easily. I go through stages where I want her to make the decision to fight for the marriage then 10 minutes later I do not want her to. I keep thinking about what she might have done with the OM. Did it ever go physical? kissing, petting, oral???? It infuriates me to think of these things. Not only that she is 10 hours away at her grandfathers bed as he slowly passes away and we are quickly coming to the deadline I gave her to make a choice on her bottom line. I want to be compassionate to her but I also do not want to convey a sense of weakness in my bottom line. I told her is he passed away I would be coming up for the funeral and to support her. And yet as I type this I know the contact with the OM continues, she has given me no indication that that will change.
Reggie Posted June 9, 2009 Posted June 9, 2009 I think the continued contace post discovery gives you your answer. She is not about to undetake the hard work needed to recover. You should stick to you timeline. This has been ongoing for a long time with no end in sight. Sorry for your pain.
seibert253 Posted June 9, 2009 Posted June 9, 2009 I think it's time Shocked. If all that's happened won't clear the fog, nothing will. I actually think your better off by standing your ground and moving forward. You've fought the good fight my man. Sometimes in life the good guys don't always win.
amerikajin Posted June 9, 2009 Posted June 9, 2009 I am sorry but I just had to come on here to vent. I have been going through huge emotional swings lately. This whole process has consumed my every waking moment and lately it seems that my time awake has increased as sleep does not come easily. I go through stages where I want her to make the decision to fight for the marriage then 10 minutes later I do not want her to. I keep thinking about what she might have done with the OM. Did it ever go physical? kissing, petting, oral???? It infuriates me to think of these things. Not only that she is 10 hours away at her grandfathers bed as he slowly passes away and we are quickly coming to the deadline I gave her to make a choice on her bottom line. I want to be compassionate to her but I also do not want to convey a sense of weakness in my bottom line. I told her is he passed away I would be coming up for the funeral and to support her. And yet as I type this I know the contact with the OM continues, she has given me no indication that that will change. I think you have been very fair and very reasonable with her. I think you were very careful to take a step back and to give her some time to start taking some small measures of responsibility on her own. I think you're clearly making the majority of the effort and your requests to start pulling away from the OM and back into the marriage are completely justified. Unfortunately, she continues to live in a world of denial and at this point, I am not sure what other options you have. I think that if the deadline comes without any changes on her part, then you are going to have to start approaching this situation with yourself in mind first and foremost. You are going to have to make good on your word to go through with your separation, and quite possibly, a divorce. And I would only give her one chance after this, and with very clear guidelines which are to be followed strictly without fail. You gave her a chance to be the good cop. Now you're going to have to be a bad cop. But it's important to see what's really going on here: being the good cop was showing your partner the respect enough to give her a chance to come back into the relationship on her own. You extended your hand but she didn't take it. Being the bad cop is showing her that it's no longer about "us", it's about "me" (you, the OP). Being the bad cop is your way of telling your wife "I care about myself. I love me. I want me to be happy. I only want you in my life if you are here to support me. If you are, I will give you one last chance to prove it. But I will be watching you closely. If you can't deal with that, tough sh*t. Get out. Now, which is it? It's not really about being tough with your wife...it's about being the best man you can be for yourself. That's probably what this is coming to. Don't take her own personal sadness into consideration at your expense. Think of yourself first at all times. You can still be compassionate, but don't let her abuse that compassion. This is all about you now.
travelgirl Posted June 9, 2009 Posted June 9, 2009 If thoughts of what has happen consume you, then why not call this man? You have no idea what she is telling him and vice versa. He is messing with a married women. You have a right to call him and ask him what is going on. Tell your side and see if he tells you his. You might be surprised what comes to light if you spin things the right way. Just be calm and smart about it. If they continue to chat/text once you make this call, you can be pretty certain both of them are on the same page of what they are doing and I would think at that point, it has indeed gotten physical/serious if they both blindly continue on without a care in the world. That said, stick with your deadline. Don't waiver no matter what happens - as hard as that is. Like I said before in one of my earlier posts. What happens after D-day, or what little you do as things continue on, eats you up more then the initial D-Day itself. You need your respect or you will forever regret not standing up for yourself against someone who right now could care less what you are feeling. Good Luck
Author Shockedhusband Posted June 22, 2009 Author Posted June 22, 2009 Nothing really new to report, things have been kind of crazy around our household with the death of my wife's grandfather as well as other random occurrences. I have yet to file for divorce but the wife knows that on the table. She is still in contact with the OM and still denies its anything but a friendship. The gaslighting continues. We were at a wedding and some of her friends know about what is going on and they all tell me the same damn thing. She is in the wrong and they support me. One of them even told me to end it with her. I didn't ask for them to come up to me and talk to me they came up on their own. I don't know why I have been dragging my feet about a divorce. I keep thinking things will change but they have not. I go from one minute being all gun ho about filing to feeling bad and rethinking everything. I think deep down i know its time, I have lost that love for my wife and I have lost respect for her as well. Its just a sad situation how someone can give up everything like that and live in a fantasy world.
Owl Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 So what happened to "giving her until Friday to make a choice"???? Until she suffers a consequence...she's going to keep doing what she's doing. Either choose to take a stand to do something about this...or accept the situation as it is as what YOU have decided to do.
Bryanp Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 Owl is absolutely correct. No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change. She knows she has a husband that has allowed her to cheat with the OM and lie to your face about it without consequences. Why in the world would she respect a husband that she could so easily make look like a total fool. She has no respect for you because you have no respect for yourself. Again if you do not respect yourself then who will? I wish you luck.
travelgirl Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 By passively letting this go on, you are ruining any type of reconciliation you could have had because in the end, these past weeks/months of you knowing but sitting back and not demanding respect, while she continued on with the affair, is what will ruin you. It wasn't your fault she sought after an EA but it IS now your fault that you let it continue. The longer you wait to put your foot down, the longer it will take you to get over the effects it has had on you - whether you divorce or not. There is NOT ONE THING you are gaining by giving it time but more reason for your wife to see you as a doormat. Sorry to be blunt but I have been in your shoes. It sucks - but looking back in a year or so, you might be able to forgive her as a friend or even a wife but you will have a hard time forgiving yourself and the lack of action you took when it mattered. Fool me once, shame on you - fool me twice, shame on me.
amerikajin Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 I have lost that love for my wife and I have lost respect for her as well. Its just a sad situation how someone can give up everything like that and live in a fantasy world. And I think that's the bottom line in all of this: it's about your feelings, and your feelings for her are understandably getting more and more sour with each passing day. It's probably getting close to the point where it will no longer be possible to have anywhere close to the same feelings for her again. The relationship is changed forever even now, but there was probably a time when she could have minimized the damage. At this point, however, all she has done is repeatedly kicked you while you were down and vulnerable. She's so wrapped up in her own sense of vulnerability that she no longer seems to have any idea what you're going through. I think you've shown remarkable determination to give your marriage another shot, but you can only keep extending your hand so many times. Taking the restrained and measured route probably isn't going to save your marriage, but you can at least leave your marriage knowing that you've made an effort to resolve the issues in the relationship. Don't beat yourself up about that, either, because almost every relationship has sludge that builds up over time. You acknowledged that there might be steps you could take in helping to improve the quality of your relationship, and you left the door open for her to join you. She has to date declined your offer. You have tried, so try not to torment yourself. Even if you end up making the decision to leave, I would still consider counseling for yourself. You can learn a lot about yourself and how to avoid potential problems in future relationships. Good luck, bud.
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