Wifes emotional affair what do I do

[amerikajin]

In fact, serving papers is often cited as the best way to save a marriage.

 

And I suppose you have research that backs this up? This could well be true, but I'm skeptical.

[amerikajin]

Amerikajin, no one is saying leave the bi*ch out in the cold. Most people are saying the sitting back and being a doormat approach DOES NOT work. Most of us know this personally.

 

To me being a doormat is acting like her behavior is acceptable and carrying on like nothing has happened. I haven't advocated that, and to his credit, I don't sense that the OP is rolling over. I don't think the advice about being patient should be interpreted to mean that he should just accept what he's doing. What I'm really saying is, if he's really interested in working things out, it might be helpful to do more than just get pissed off about her behavior and start doing things to get even with her or send her a message that you're not going to take any crap from her -- it is so far beyond that right now. The marriage is very close to being DOA. He came to LS looking for suggestions on how he might salvage his relationship. I don't see how filing for a divorce is going to save his relationship. That seems like a logical disconnect if there ever was one. Kinda like going to war for the sake of peace.

 

Sure, giving her the ultimatum could make her up and leave and say F you to Shocked. Most foggy cheaters will initially do this, especially stubborn females and I have a feeling she will do this. But if you call their bluff and let them go on their own for awhile, it snaps them out of affair fog because they have lost the security of the affair which is ironically, Shocked.

 

I don't disagree that it might be wise for the OP to consider a series of steps to take. I think that these steps should be progressive, though. I think that an informal separation might not be a bad idea, though I would not do that with the sole purpose of teaching her that he means business. I would consider an informal separation as a way to get her to think, to let her know that this is what it's coming to. Meanwhile, I would push like hell to get her to commit to counseling. I definitely think that she should stop seeing the OM but I think it's better if she can come to that conclusion on her own. I think that's quite possible in a series of counseling sessions.

 

All of a sudden the BS is thinking about her life, her kids, her future, what has she done (not her current thinking of what has HE done to me) and what is really important to her in the long run. They DON'T think that when they have the security wimpering puppy who wants to talk things out and is always there for them. It sucks that it has to be that way but if Shocked goes thru a lot of these emotional affair threads on loveshack, he will see that working together, MC, staying at home together, "talking" and such, does not work when someone is still obsessed with another person and continues to disrespect the marriage by continuing to contact him/her. If 2-3 weeks of therapy hasn't done anything to change her at this point, they might as well go for 2-3 months or years. The outcome will STILL be the same unless he stands up for himself.

 

I agree with this. I think this can be done with an informal separation. If that doesn't work, then perhaps it's time to go to divorce court.

 

Shocked, I tried this approach, I really did. We have a 7 year old and I didn't want to kick him out and send the family in total crazinesss. I thought being a better person, opening up and trying to talk and understand the situation would work, but when someone is in an affair fog there needs to be a good slap in the face to shake them up. After getting help here I realized this and I did tell him to leave, go stay at a hotel. He didn't want to but when I kept my foot down, he called me crazy and left - waiting for me to say "oh no, please come back!" But it only took about 4 days for his ass to realize it wasn't going to happen. He call a MC on his own, begged to come home, gave me total transparency, stopped working with the girl etc... I took him back after 2 weeks and we then worked TOGETHER to get thru the EA and get our marriage and family back together. This was in November and things are going well but to be honest with you, my main set back time and time again is the fact that I let him walk on me after I initially found out. That is what hurts more then initially finding out about the EA. That he went behind my back after I found out and played nice. That I didn't stand up for myself sooner and that I was actually afraid of doing so and he knew it. I just don't want you to look back and regret what you are not doing now - which is respecting yourself.

 

Men, in particular, are quick to find themselves in a world of sh*t as the result of chasing skirts but almost always regret it. How many threads are there on LS from OWs who get shocked that their MM didn't actually go through with the divorce as he promised. I hate to say it but men who get into affairs don't want drama; they just want to have their cake and eat it as well. Women are far more likely than men to go through with a divorce. Men have affairs because their erections get soft or their egos aren't stroked enough; women have affairs because they've lost the feeling. When women tell you they've lost the feeling...they usually mean it.

[seibert253]

When women tell you they've lost the feeling...they usually mean it.

 

Agree, but some don't. They are subseptable to the 2X4 of reality just like us guys. You'll never know until you try. He's tried the "progressive love" approach to no avail. IMO it time for another tactic. The reality smackdown.

 

If that doesn't work either, then he can truely say I tried everything I could to save this.

[travelgirl]

I don't disagree that it might be wise for the OP to consider a series of steps to take. I think that these steps should be progressive, though. I think that an informal separation might not be a bad idea, though I would not do that with the sole purpose of teaching her that he means business. I would consider an informal separation as a way to get her to think, to let her know that this is what it's coming to. Meanwhile, I would push like hell to get her to commit to counseling. I definitely think that she should stop seeing the OM but I think it's better if she can come to that conclusion on her own. I think that's quite possible in a series of counseling sessions.

 

I think it is counterproductive to think he would kindly ask for an informal separation but still be clawing at her for counseling. I don't think any counseling will work until she is ready to own up to her actions and WANT to go to fix the marriage. Otherwise it is not only falling on deaf ears, but the separation gives her the freedom to continue the affair with OM, all while knowing her husband is distraught, still wants and is begging for therapy, and most of all, still needs her. He is enabling her to continue this affair by his current tone and actions. She needs to realize he is going to move on and this isn't a game. That her actions have consequences. She won't feel that while he is still wanting to work it out, whether they live together or not. She has the upper hand, she knows it and she is abusing it.

 

I have never mentioned divorce or divorce papers in any of my posts. It doesn't have to be that extreme but he needs to stop wanting to fix her or the marriage because it isn't working and the more he asks to talk or asks her to continue MC, the more he will look pathetic to her.

 

He needs to tell the OM to back off and that is HIS wife and then turn around and let her know the games are done. A double whammy. If her "friendship" is more important then respecting him, her husband, then it is time they separate and figure out what is best for both of them. He doesn't have to be a total ass about it but it shouldn't be a sob story either. He just needs to stand up for himself and be firm, say the words and walk away and let it simmer in her. Any talks during all of this will show he might not mean it. He shouldn't ask for MC, she needs to or he will always wonder if she is just doing it to appease him and not to truly get the help she needs. And if she doesn't own up and get the help she needs or wants to work on this marriage, well at least he still has his dignity.

[amerikajin]

I think it is counterproductive to think he would kindly ask for an informal separation but still be clawing at her for counseling.

 

I'm not suggesting that he kindly ask for separation. Why would he need to ask anyway? I think he should actually consider doing it -- separation, that is. It's called being decisive and taking control of your own affairs, but doing it in a way that is measured. If the guy wants to stay married, he needs to keep his head on straight. I think a lot of people in this situation get hurt and just lash out, using their attorney as a type of psychological weapon to get back at their partner. Frankly, when people do this, they're not guiltless; they've made a conscious decision to do something that further lessens the possibility that their marriage might recover. People do this because their egos get hurt and their pride tells them to kick their partner's ass. The feelings are understandable but they don't necessarily make the marriage better.

 

I don't think any counseling will work until she is ready to own up to her actions and WANT to go to fix the marriage.

 

And therein lies the catch-22. She clearly believes that the OP neglected her and, from the looks of things, doesn't feel any sense of guilt or shame about what she's doing. I have no way of knowing what the circumstances are here, but in a lot of cases, partners start straying because they believe they've been neglected somehow. Again, I have no idea whether she is being neglected in reality or not, but that's the way she feels. Hence, if the OP goes to her and says you'd better straighten the hell up, she might laugh and tell him to piss off. And then what? Sure he could get a divorce, but what if there is some truth to what the OP's wife is saying? What if there are issues that perhaps the OP hasn't addressed? What happens then is that the OP files for divorce - and gets one - without ever having had the benefit of addressing some of his own contributions to the collapse of the marriage. And there's a good chance he'll take those same issues into his next relationship. None of that means that what the OP's wife is doing is right -- it's totally the wrong response even if it's justified in her mind. Not debating that. I'm just not agreeing that the OP ought to start beating his chest and walking around in a fur toga to show her who's the boss of the house. As I said, she'll probably just laugh and tell him to piss off.

 

Counseling will work if both people see the potential benefits of counseling and believe there's a chance their marriage can be saved -- that's the bottom line here. That's what the OP has to do if he wants to save his marriage. He simply has to take a step back and accept the reality of where he is, and he has to ask himself if he wants to continue, and he has to ask her if she's willing to continue. I think the contact with the other man will stop if she wants it to stop. I think it will stop if the OP can get her into counseling and get his wife to hear things from an objective source, who can make her stop and think about what she's doing. That's the benefit of counseling. For now she doesn't believe she's in the wrong; counseling will probably change that because if she's committed to it, then she will have to take responsibility for her own contributions to the problems in the marriage. But this situation has been building up for a long, long time and it's naive to think it's going to stop right now. If the OP is so angry at his wife that he wants to just end the marriage, that's fine, he can do that. But don't blame the wife 100 percent for getting a divorce because he, too, will have made a choice to stop fighting for the marriage.

 

Otherwise it is not only falling on deaf ears, but the separation gives her the freedom to continue the affair with OM,

 

Doesn't she now also have that same freedom? I mean, she's doing it now, right? She's doing it because she wants to do it. I agree that the physical proximity right now makes it a bit more complicated. The wife and the OM might have to go to the OM's apartment or a hotel but still...who are we kidding here? I know that this tactic might have worked for you, but you were lucky enough to have a partner who was just bluffing. Not all partners are. I don't get the impression the OP's partner is. And if he goes to the attorney, that might be the last straw. And that's the point: go to the attorney when it's time to start divorce proceedings, and not a moment before.

 

all while knowing her husband is distraught, still wants and is begging for therapy, and most of all, still needs her.

 

The situation you're describing applies to weak men who are susceptible to serious manipulation. I don't get the impression that this applies to the OP. I think the OP is prepared to take action. It's the action to take that we're debating here. And more importantly, when to take it.

 

He is enabling her to continue this affair by his current tone and actions. She needs to realize he is going to move on and this isn't a game. That her actions have consequences. She won't feel that while he is still wanting to work it out, whether they live together or not. She has the upper hand, she knows it and she is abusing it.

 

I agree that she might have the upper hand for now, but that's because she hasn't seen him take any action yet. But that action doesn't have to be divorce papers. But you're right: what the wife needs to see is that when he says something, he means it, and that consequences will definitely follow. That's why I recommend a brief separation - a few weeks or maybe a month or so.

 

I would do this by telling laying it down for her: I am going to give you a week to make a decision on this. If you don't stop communicating with the OM and if you don't agree to counseling by X date, then I'm going to move out for a while. And if it comes to that, definitely, without fail, move out. This will establish consequences, and more importantly, it will establish that he's not a weakling, that what he says, he means. He will have instant credibility. And if it comes to that, and if he moves out, then I would repeat the request to enter into marriage counseling by a certain deadline (maybe a month to six weeks). And if that time comes and goes and there is no resolution, then the OP will probably have to take the unfortunate step of contacting an attorney. And assuming it gets that far and she has a change of heart, I would give her one chance. If she blows that, then it's over for good. I think this is the way to go. Do things progressively but always, always, always back your words up with your actions, or you will indeed become the dreaded doormat. But by doing this you establish self-control, and whether she wants to admit it or not, you also regain some measure of respect in her eyes. You might also give both of you time to let heads cool and think about things without aggravating each other.

 

He needs to tell the OM to back off and that is HIS wife and then turn around and let her know the games are done. A double whammy.

 

I generally don't have a problem contacting the OM. Just understand that it's not risk free. She could get angry that he contacted the OM and raise the stakes herself, but I don't think that's a reason to avoid contacting him. The OM is clearly wrong for knowingly pursuing a married woman, and the OP is clearly within his right to get him to stop. If he's going to contact him, do it by phone and keep it short and to the point. I would not under any circumstances attempt to meet him face-to-face. That's jail time waiting to happen.

 

Any talks during all of this will show he might not mean it. He shouldn't ask for MC, she needs to or he will always wonder if she is just doing it to appease him and not to truly get the help she needs. And if she doesn't own up and get the help she needs or wants to work on this marriage, well at least he still has his dignity.

 

What he needs more than any thing is a clear head. When things get bad in a relationship, emotions take over. That never leads to good decision-making. The OP needs to slow things down a bit and perhaps give himself some space to make some good decisions, and doing that will probably allow his wife to do the same.

[Shockedhusband]

Well there certainly has been quite a bit of activity on this thread since the last time I checked it. I am going to try and address some of the things people said

 

We have been to 4 marriage counseling sessions, the initial session, a one on one session for both of us and then one session together. She is still sitting on the proverbial fence.

 

So far through marriage counseling we have talked about the dynamics of both our marriage and her relationship with the OM. Our MC has also tried to convey to my wife how I am feeling and why I am feeling that way. We also talked about why secretive relationships like this are so painful for the other person and how the brain responds to these types of threats.

 

I am not sure why but I do have some comfort in actually understanding the dynamics of an emotional affair, maybe just understanding brings some piece of mind. I think for one when you understand what has happened you can think about it rationally. Yes I am hurt by it but I am not angry and lashing out on my wife. She actually did open up and say that she had feeling beyond a friendship for the OM. She is however still pretty apprehensive in the counseling sessions never really saying anything more than what is asked.

 

We had a long conversation on Monday night and tried to talk about what got us to this point. I basically asked her what she needed from me. She talked about how she has been unhappy for the past two years. We went into a bit of detail on some of the items such as me not being emotionally attentive to her needs and generally talked about her unhappiness. Like I said earlier she brought up quite a few things that I thought we had worked through but there were evidently still fresh ans painful to her.

 

I asked her about the happy times we have had and she basically said she made herself believe she was happy or tried to put on a happy face. I think I have said it before but we have had some really happy times and we have had some rough patches but nothing more than any other married couple would have.

 

She stated that she did not know if things were going to work out becuase I don't trust her and she doesn't think that trust will ever come back. I told her that she was right that I don't trust her and as long as she is still in contact with this guy as much as she is I am not going to be able to trust her.

 

She also stated that she doesn't know if its going to work out so she can't really put everything into fixing the marriage and couseling becuase of that. I told her that its a two way street and as long as she can't put everything into it it is hampering me from putting everything into it.

 

I told her we have two choices we can either get to improving our marriage or we can get to moving on. We can not live like this forever, she knows I am not going to accept the fact the fact the her and this other guy are "just friends" becuase she has already admitted to having feelings for him that were above a friendship level. She now says those feelings are gone....where did they go? and yet the contact continues.

 

She is absolutly terrified of being on her own, she said that much after I told her that. I have never seen her cry that hard when she was talking about where she would go or what she would do. She called me the next day and asked me to call the marriage couselor and set up our next appointment, becuase our regular wednesday appointment got screwed up becuase she had to go out of town for work. (OM not with her)

 

Maybe that was a small wake up call, I am still not sure. I want to let everyone know I am not being a door mat and accepting that this goes on. I voice my opinons to my wire in a calm rational manner.

 

I put a call into our marriage couselor becuase I wanted to talk with him and get his advice on where to go. He believes that the ultimatum approach should be a last resort option so I am curious about what he intends to adress in our next session. I left him a message and am waiting to hear back from him.

 

I have it in my mind though that based on everything right now I will give it two more session at max before pulling the 180. I want to give it the chance that some of my words have sunk into my wife. Make no mistake about it I am fighting for this but if it ends up not so good at least I know I tried my hardest to make it work.

[amerikajin]

Shocked,

 

It might not seem like it right now, but I think there have already been some significant breakthroughs. I'll try to address the ones I see.

 

We have been to 4 marriage counseling sessions, the initial session, a one on one session for both of us and then one session together. She is still sitting on the proverbial fence.

 

That's probably typical. She's built up all of these feelings in her mind for so long, and it's just within the past few weeks (and really, only one mutual session if I understand it correctly) that she's now having to see things from a different perspective. Again, that's why counseling is so important. Just as you have, your wife has been seeing things from her point of view and only her point of view. She feels hurt and neglected -- that's how she feels. What she hasn't considered until now is whether he feelings were in fact reality-based. But even more importantly, Shocked, she is now for the very first time having an objective, unbiased third party tell her to her face that her version of reality might not necessarily be accurate. She is for the first time having someone actually question her, with real questions. See, unfortunately you've lost credibility in her eyes, so when you lecture her, she can just say "Oh that's just Shocked being his usual biased self -- he doesn't know what he's talking about" She can run and hide from reality. But she can't do that so easily now. Do you see what I'm talking about? It's like when a good, credible, trusted friend tells her "I like you Shocked's Wife, but did you stop to consider that maybe, just maybe, you're wrong?" It's a powerful thing. I say, keep doing this. Keep her going to the counseling sessions and keep going yourself.

 

So far through marriage counseling we have talked about the dynamics of both our marriage and her relationship with the OM. Our MC has also tried to convey to my wife how I am feeling and why I am feeling that way. We also talked about why secretive relationships like this are so painful for the other person and how the brain responds to these types of threats.

 

I think your counselor is good. I think he's sending the right messages here. He's not taking sides. He's just being objective. I know people here want the MC to take sides but if he does that, if he starts judging, then he loses some of his credibility as an unbiased observer. That's the point the MC's making. For your sake, Shocked, he has to be objective and keep himself detached from this. And he will also have to call you out on what he sees with your own behavior. Again, he must maintain credibility or she'll tune out.

 

I am not sure why but I do have some comfort in actually understanding the dynamics of an emotional affair, maybe just understanding brings some piece of mind. I think for one when you understand what has happened you can think about it rationally. Yes I am hurt by it but I am not angry and lashing out on my wife. She actually did open up and say that she had feeling beyond a friendship for the OM. She is however still pretty apprehensive in the counseling sessions never really saying anything more than what is asked.

 

This is critically important. The honesty that has been missing in the relationship is now starting to make a return. When communication breaks down, partners lose the ability to disclose things to their partners. Without disclosure, it's hard to find honesty. Some people like living in secretive relationships, but most people in our culture don't want to define their intimate relationships that way.

 

We had a long conversation on Monday night and tried to talk about what got us to this point. I basically asked her what she needed from me. She talked about how she has been unhappy for the past two years. We went into a bit of detail on some of the items such as me not being emotionally attentive to her needs and generally talked about her unhappiness. Like I said earlier she brought up quite a few things that I thought we had worked through but there were evidently still fresh ans painful to her.

 

That's good. Again, she's being honest. She's disclosing things to you that she had not for so long. The honesty is beginning to make its return to the relationship.

 

Keep in mind at all times that this is simply how she feels. You are not obligated to agree with her. You can have your own viewpoint on this. It's important for your wife to understand that these are just her feelings, and that her feelings might not necessarily be reality. I think that it's important for her to start understanding these feelings on her own through the process of counseling. She needs to have the MC keep asking her questions, to keep holding up that psychological mirror. She needs to reflect on her feelings and to understand that, regardless of how she feels, she has to take responsibility for her own contributions or lack thereof to the marriage. If she feels neglected, she needs to understand first why she feels that way. If she really believes that she's neglected, then she has a responsibility to disclose that to you in a respectful way. By going behind your back, she was absolutely going out of bounds. She will have to take responsibility for that at some point. I am guessing that the MC is trying to guide her to this point as fast as he can, but it's a delicate process.

 

I asked her about the happy times we have had and she basically said she made herself believe she was happy or tried to put on a happy face. I think I have said it before but we have had some really happy times and we have had some rough patches but nothing more than any other married couple would have.

 

That's all well and good that she tried to be happy. And I'm sure a part of her is patting herself on the back for this and she's probably telling you "I sacrificed for you because I tried to act happy when I really wasn't" And my response to that would be "OKay, that's all well and good - I understand you. But tell me something, how am I supposed to know you if you won't tell me these things? How fair is that? I want to help you but you have to communicate with me?" Hopefully this will be reinforced by the MC. I think that these types of questions, ones that make her reflect and force her to think about her own responsibility are far more effective than making threats and serving her with divorce papers. The threats are just reactions to her own behavior, and irrational ones at that if you ask me.

 

She stated that she did not know if things were going to work out becuase I don't trust her and she doesn't think that trust will ever come back. I told her that she was right that I don't trust her and as long as she is still in contact with this guy as much as she is I am not going to be able to trust her.

 

This is her way of telling you that she already has one foot outside of the marriage. She has already built up all of these feelings to the point where she is really serious about this, about just moving to the next man. I know that's a chilling reality but that's the way I see it.

 

Here's the good news: she's still listening to you. Your words are a faint whisper to her at times, but she's still listening. She has not yet quit on the marriage. I think your wife seems to be an incredibly insecure woman who will need extensive counseling and self-reflection. But I think this can be worked out. I certainly wouldn't make any guarantees, but it could work. You have to keep a cool head right now, Shocked.

 

She also stated that she doesn't know if its going to work out so she can't really put everything into fixing the marriage and couseling becuase of that. I told her that its a two way street and as long as she can't put everything into it it is hampering me from putting everything into it.

 

What she really means is that she's not sure if she wants to take responsibility for her own contributions to your marital problems. Like I said, she's used to telling herself that it's your fault, and she's got this self-serving friend of hers who's agreeing with her (for obvious reasons). And because she kept all of this between herself and her friend, she's convinced that she's right. You're biased, and she's convinced that you have turned her family against her, which makes you an even bigger devil in her eyes. She's probably telling herself that the family just doesn't understand because they don't live with you guys. She's going to great lengths to justify this and to avoid responsibility. The marriage counselor is forcing her to take responsibility. He's having none of it. He's an objective third party and he absolutely has to stay that way.

 

I told her we have two choices we can either get to improving our marriage or we can get to moving on. We can not live like this forever, she knows I am not going to accept the fact the fact the her and this other guy are "just friends" becuase she has already admitted to having feelings for him that were above a friendship level. She now says those feelings are gone....where did they go? and yet the contact continues.

 

Bring it up in the next counseling session. Put all of the cards on the table. She will have to accept the fact that her actions are causing as many problems as anything you might have done (imagined or real). The marriage counselor will throw these facts back to her to chew on, and she will keep getting hit on the head with them. I think she will soon realize that she can't continue playing the victim card. She will soon wake up and realize that the whole world isn't wrong. If she doesn't eventually get to this point and change her behavior, well, honestly, that will leave you with a very tough decision to make. But by slowing things down, by giving her time and continued opportunities to reflect on her own behavior, I think you increase the likelihood that she will eventually figure things out on her own. And even if she doesn't, and even if you get a divorce, you can honestly move on knowing that you gave it your all and that maybe she just wasn't the wife you thought she was. I'm hoping that she'll change, though. I'm hoping both of you will discover important truths about your relationship.

 

She is absolutly terrified of being on her own, she said that much after I told her that. I have never seen her cry that hard when she was talking about where she would go or what she would do. She called me the next day and asked me to call the marriage couselor and set up our next appointment, becuase our regular wednesday appointment got screwed up becuase she had to go out of town for work. (OM not with her)

 

That's usually the root of it all, mate. A fear of being 'under appreciated' is usually a fear of being abandoned one day. So what she's doing, what a lot of cheaters do, is to take that preemptive step of doing it first. It's weird, but human psychology is weird. At some point in the course of counseling, she will have to learn to a) be completely honest with herself about this fear she has; b) disclose this to you; and c) face her demons head on. This is her responsibility, not yours. You have your own responsibility, but lifting her spirits up 24 hours a day isn't one of them. Be clear about that. It's probably better to do that through the counselor.

 

I put a call into our marriage couselor becuase I wanted to talk with him and get his advice on where to go. He believes that the ultimatum approach should be a last resort option so I am curious about what he intends to adress in our next session. I left him a message and am waiting to hear back from him.

 

I generally agree that you shouldn't be a doormat and that you should also be very careful about ultimatums. If you're going to give an ultimatum, I think it's important to do it in a way that doesn't really seem like an ultimatum. I think you should characterize it not as an ultimatum but as simply a matter of taking control of your own life, regardless of what she does. I initially mentioned in an earlier post that you should give her X amount of time and then separate. In light of what I'm seeing her, though, you might want to listen more to your counselor's suggestions. I say that because I think you're making some progress. I might set a private deadline in my mind before approaching her with a deadline, and then following the steps I outlined (again, just saying that's what I would do but definitely consult with your counselor on this one). I do agree though that you don't want to let her just yank you around.

 

I have it in my mind though that based on everything right now I will give it two more session at max before pulling the 180. I want to give it the chance that some of my words have sunk into my wife. Make no mistake about it I am fighting for this but if it ends up not so good at least I know I tried my hardest to make it work.

 

Taking action is fair enough. Keep a few things in mind:

 

1. Don't caution her unless you're fully prepared to go through with whatever it is you're threatening to do.

 

2. Take progressive action.

 

Good luck!

[JLee26]

Glad to see a new post!!! I agree with the 2 more sessions tops and then a switcharoo. Mix it up.

 

As Always BEST OF LUCK!!!!

[delirious]

I can understand your wife, she has been depressed, she has been stuck in a maybe unhappy marriage for two years, she has been given this attention from someone, it could be an EA. It has given her a lift that she cannot get anywhere else. It is addictive. It may have made her feel special, sexy, attractive etc. It may NOT have got physical in which there is still time. I had an EA with a guy for a year before anything happened. This is like a drug to her. If she suffers depression, it may have turned her head like she does not remember. She may not be thinking. You spying on her and going through her stuff will make her feel like you want to control her. Even if she is your wife, you have no right to control her and it will turn her against you more. That is something that made me fall out of love with my husband. If you start spying and controlling, you are losing. You need to stand back and let her know you love her, if you really do, you will not try to control her. If she is having a PA it may be too late but there is not a lot you can do about that. You can get revenge which is what some of the blokes on here are suggesting, with their woman hating and bile, but if you want her really, you can't go in there guns blazing, you will definitely lose her, she may come out of this fog. It could be that she is not thinking straight. If you love her, you will see if she comes out of this, she just might.

[seibert253]

I can understand your wife, she has been depressed, she has been stuck in a maybe unhappy marriage for two years, she has been given this attention from someone, it could be an EA. It has given her a lift that she cannot get anywhere else. It is addictive. It may have made her feel special, sexy, attractive etc. It may NOT have got physical in which there is still time. I had an EA with a guy for a year before anything happened. This is like a drug to her. If she suffers depression, it may have turned her head like she does not remember. She may not be thinking. You spying on her and going through her stuff will make her feel like you want to control her. Even if she is your wife, you have no right to control her and it will turn her against you more. That is something that made me fall out of love with my husband. If you start spying and controlling, you are losing. You need to stand back and let her know you love her, if you really do, you will not try to control her. If she is having a PA it may be too late but there is not a lot you can do about that. You can get revenge which is what some of the blokes on here are suggesting, with their woman hating and bile, but if you want her really, you can't go in there guns blazing, you will definitely lose her, she may come out of this fog. It could be that she is not thinking straight. If you love her, you will see if she comes out of this, she just might.

 

Meanwhile he's supposed to sit there and let her walk all over him and be her doormat while she "makes up her mind". Come on, who do you think you're fooling. In case you're not familar, it's called cake eating. Allowing the WS to continue to see the OP, while having a BS at home at their becon call, hoping they can convince the cake eater to love them again.

 

Another point, it's called gathering evidence. If you're the WS you like to call it spying. The goal is to gather evidence to confront the WS. Why you may ask? Because cheaters lie. Oh honey, he/she is just a close friend. We're just talking. Sound familar? Did you tell your husband that? Well I've heard it and ask any of the other BS's on this site, they've heard it too. This lie continues until you hit the WS upside the head with hard facts.

 

Shocked has been very patient, kind, loving, and understanding throughout this whole ordeal. Even with all this, his WW still doesn't see the devotion and love he has for her. He's repeatedly requested she end contact with the OM, and she has not. To me, that's blatent disrespect for her husband and his feelings. IMO he's gone above and beyond in an attempt to salvage his marriage. I suggest you read the entire thread.

 

Even with all this, there comes a time when enough is enough. The Mr. Nice Guy approach isn't working, it's time to change tactics. Shocked is just about at this point.

 

You were a WS, I was a BS, we see things differently. On many aspects we will have to agree to disagree. But one aspect remains true, THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR CHEATING, NONE. It' wrong, period, end of story.

[amerikajin]

Meanwhile he's supposed to sit there and let her walk all over him and be her doormat while she "makes up her mind". Come on, who do you think you're fooling. In case you're not familar, it's called cake eating. Allowing the WS to continue to see the OP, while having a BS at home at their becon call, hoping they can convince the cake eater to love them again.

 

Another point, it's called gathering evidence. If you're the WS you like to call it spying. The goal is to gather evidence to confront the WS. Why you may ask? Because cheaters lie. Oh honey, he/she is just a close friend. We're just talking. Sound familar? Did you tell your husband that? Well I've heard it and ask any of the other BS's on this site, they've heard it too. This lie continues until you hit the WS upside the head with hard facts.

 

Shocked has been very patient, kind, loving, and understanding throughout this whole ordeal. Even with all this, his WW still doesn't see the devotion and love he has for her. He's repeatedly requested she end contact with the OM, and she has not. To me, that's blatent disrespect for her husband and his feelings. IMO he's gone above and beyond in an attempt to salvage his marriage. I suggest you read the entire thread.

 

Even with all this, there comes a time when enough is enough. The Mr. Nice Guy approach isn't working, it's time to change tactics. Shocked is just about at this point.

 

You were a WS, I was a BS, we see things differently. On many aspects we will have to agree to disagree. But one aspect remains true, THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR CHEATING, NONE. It' wrong, period, end of story.

 

There is no justification for cheating, just like there is no justification for yelling at your spouse in the heat of the moment, but people do it. The question is, how do you respond in that situation. Do you assume moral high ground and start using that as psychological leverage, or do you try to defuse the situation and do your best to make things work out in spite of your partner's mistakes? I know this is one hell of a lot easier for me to say than it is for a betrayed spouse to accept and put into practice. I have the luxury of being detached from the situation; betrayed spouses don't.

[seibert253]

There is no justification for cheating, just like there is no justification for yelling at your spouse in the heat of the moment, but people do it. The question is, how do you respond in that situation. Do you assume moral high ground and start using that as psychological leverage, or do you try to defuse the situation and do your best to make things work out in spite of your partner's mistakes? I know this is one hell of a lot easier for me to say than it is for a betrayed spouse to accept and put into practice. I have the luxury of being detached from the situation; betrayed spouses don't.

 

Cheating is not a mistake, it's a choice. AJ I've read all your posts and agree with about half of what you say, but even with the things I don't agree with, I see it as being a different perspective. Even if I do not agree with what's said, looking at it in a different light is healthy and gives me food for though. But, as I said earlier there comes a time when enough is enough. There comes a time when you have to draw and line in the sand and say that's it.

 

I think all of us agree that Shocked has jumped through hoops to save this thing. I'll admit, he's far more patient than me. I can only see his situation through my eyes, give him my perspective, and advise him on what worked for me.

 

My wife was somewhat like his, fencesitting, deep in the fog, sat though counseling and said nothing, lied about maintaining contact with OM, and I kissed her azz for months trying to "win her back". It didn't do anything but push her further away. Finally a friend told me, enough. When you're losing the battle, you have to change tactics to win the war. I did. Gently and politely I

 

told her enough, you have 7 days to make a choice, me or him. Stopped kissing her azz and being Mr. Nice guy. I didn't turn into an azz, but I grew cold and distant. When she wanted to banter with small talk, or confide to me about something, I would tell her if you want to talk about fixing this we can. If you want to talk about divorce we can. Otherwise I do not have anything to say. I also told her that I no longer was going to keep her infidelity a secret from family and friends. Stopped answering her cellphone calls and texts.

After a few days I noticed her becoming more emotional, crying, not talking or spending as much time on the computer, and not eating. On day six, I left a copy of divorce papers on the table in the kitchen. She called me at work crying, asking what these were. I told her my attorney drew them up for me to approve. She broke down and asked if I could come home. I told her I was at work, if she wanted to talk, we can talk after I got home. She called me six times later that day, did not answer or return her calls.

When I got home, she was a wreck. The first words out of her mouth were "I'm so sorry, please forgive me" That was the first time during this whole ordeal she ever said anything like this. After about 2 hours of talking and crying, she told me she got a glimpse of life without me and realized she was making the wrong CHOICE. It was then she realized I was her true love. In her own words, "my fantasy life came crashing down". She phrased it as a light went on and she realized, WTF am I doing. It was then the healing began.

 

I only hope and pray that Shocked's wife has a WTF am I doing moment. My plan worked for me, may not for others, but did for me. I thank God everyday that I have my wife back.

 

AJ I don't alway agree, but I respect your opinion and your outlook. Whether my tactics or yours works in Shock's case is not important. What is important is Shocked gets his life back, and hopefully with a loving and healing wife.

[WTFO]

Wow, I love this place. You guys are some good peeps. Seriously, some great advice on here.

 

My new philosophy, is you can't fit a square peg in a round hole. If she doesn't want it she doesn't want it. You can only do so much. I hope she comes around. We are in similar situations, unfortunately she won't go to MC and is past that stage. Its time to turn the page. Good luck though we are all pulling for you.

[delirious]

Quote Seibert

You were a WS, I was a BS, we see things differently. On many aspects we will have to agree to disagree. But one aspect remains true, THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR CHEATING, NONE. It' wrong, period, end of story.

__________________

 

Yes we do see differently, you have an axe to grind and too emotionally involved with this subject, I am not, and I can see what is happening because I have been there, I was depressed and it was purely platonical for a long time, until my H decided to go in heavy handed with spying. When you start spying you see things that are not there too. Hung for a sheep as hung for a lamb sort of thing. And it makes living impossible. I was not justifying cheating, unless you have been there, you really do not know how it can happen when you are very vulnerable and unhappy. Anyway we do not know for definiite that she is, you seem to be judge and jury. She obviously has an EA with someone, but that is not the same in my view, not at all. She needed to turn to someone obviously. But if this man really loves her and he will see if she can get over this. She may come out of it but she won't if he pushes her too much.

[seibert253]

Quote Seibert

You were a WS, I was a BS, we see things differently. On many aspects we will have to agree to disagree. But one aspect remains true, THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR CHEATING, NONE. It' wrong, period, end of story.

__________________

 

Yes we do see differently, you have an axe to grind and too emotionally involved with this subject, I am not, and I can see what is happening because I have been there, I was depressed and it was purely platonical for a long time, until my H decided to go in heavy handed with spying. When you start spying you see things that are not there too. Hung for a sheep as hung for a lamb sort of thing. And it makes living impossible. I was not justifying cheating, unless you have been there, you really do not know how it can happen when you are very vulnerable and unhappy. Anyway we do not know for definiite that she is, you seem to be judge and jury. She obviously has an EA with someone, but that is not the same in my view, not at all. She needed to turn to someone obviously. But if this man really loves her and he will see if she can get over this. She may come out of it but she won't if he pushes her too much.

 

Yes we do disagree. Sounds to me you're trying to justify your actions. In many eyes, especially those who've been there, an EA is just as devistating as a PA. If you don't believe me, do some searching on this site.

Yes I do approach this from my point of view, as do you. We are sitting on opposite sides of the fence. Naturally we see things different.

 

Again I stand by my statement, and it's OK we don't agree. Always makes for health discussion.

[delirious]

Quote Yes we do disagree. Sounds to me you're trying to justify your actions. In many eyes, especially those who've been there, an EA is just as devistating as a PA. If you don't believe me, do some searching on this site.

Yes I do approach this from my point of view, as do you. We are sitting on opposite sides of the fence. Naturally we see things different.

 

Again I stand by my statement, and it's OK we don't agree. Always makes for health discussion. Quote

 

I do not have to justify anything, I am here to help the husband understand how the wife is maybe feeling. This is not my post. He knows already how he feels.

 

EAs are easy to slip into, you would not know unless you had one, you sometimes don't realise it has happened because being friends with the opposite sex is not taboo for most, but then suddenly you can be clinging to that friendship because it makes you very happy.

[Owl]

My experience was very similar with Seibert's.

 

I spent about a month living in limbo after d-day, and after my wife was told not to come to live with OM...by OM. He was the one who 'broke it off' somewhat with her then.

 

During that month, my situation was VERY much like Seibert described of his..."fog", repeatedly lying to the MC about continued contact, etc... All the while I tried to win her back, and was working with her to prepare for a seperation.

 

That last week, I'd had enough. She continued to pick fights, blame me, and I STOPPED putting up with it. When she indicated that the seperation would be for a year, minimum, I had enough. I told her point blank that I would NOT seperate for a year to see how things would turn out...I would file for divorce instead, and move on with my life...with or without her.

 

The next day I spoke to a lawyer and got information on how divorce works in our state, and laid it out for her.

 

That night, she truly made her choice to reconcile.

 

I really think that Shocked needs to make a similar choice to put an end to her games...one way or another.

[Owl]

Quote Yes we do disagree. Sounds to me you're trying to justify your actions. In many eyes, especially those who've been there, an EA is just as devistating as a PA. If you don't believe me, do some searching on this site.

Yes I do approach this from my point of view, as do you. We are sitting on opposite sides of the fence. Naturally we see things different.

 

Again I stand by my statement, and it's OK we don't agree. Always makes for health discussion. Quote

 

I do not have to justify anything, I am here to help the husband understand how the wife is maybe feeling. This is not my post. He knows already how he feels.

 

EAs are easy to slip into, you would not know unless you had one, you sometimes don't realise it has happened because being friends with the opposite sex is not taboo for most, but then suddenly you can be clinging to that friendship because it makes you very happy.

 

EA's are only easy to slip into when you have poor boundaries to begin with, Delierious.

 

And even then...there is ALWAYS a point you deliberately choose to ignore...a line you INTENTIONALLY cross. There's the moment where you DECIDE to hide an IM or text from your husband or wife, when you know that they would be devestated to see what it says.

 

It's ALWAYS a choice. Because in that instant, you chose to hide the situation from your spouse, rather than reveal and end it. You KNEW you crossed a line, but instead of doing the right thing, you thrilled in the moment of doing the wrong thing.

 

Taking ownership and responsibility for choices and actions is the first step of true recovery.

[Shockedhusband]

All I can say is wow, I never knew I could get this much support and advice from these forums. I thank you all.

 

Everyone that has posted here has had some very insightful things to add and as given me some clarity to the situation that I am in.

 

I will be sure to keep this post updated with how things are progressing with my wife and I. Like I stated before I am going to give a couple more marriage counseling session before I draw a hard line in the sand for my wife. Some of you may agree to this tactic some of you may not.

 

I have seen some improvement and some progress in things as well as some setbacks. I have noticed that the contact via text message has curtailed a bit over the past couple days between her and the OM.

 

It may be a small step, but its a step. I want to think that some good came out of our conversation on Monday night after all it was her that called me the next day on her way to work to make sure we had a set appointment to see the marriage counselor even suggesting that we do it earlier than planned.

 

Who is to say what is going to happen in the next coming weeks. She knows I will not stand for continued contact. I have to let the marriage counseling work and she does to. I also have to be prepared for option 2 and put it into action if I do not see any improvement.

 

Thank you all again and I look forward to talking soon.

[Owl]

She knows I will not stand for continued contact.

 

This is the right START...but it's missing something critical in order for it to be effective....teeth. Consequences.

 

OK...I get you won't stand for continued contact (and I applaud you for that!)...but...what CONSEQUENCE will she suffer for continued contact?

 

A boundary without a consequence is WORSE than useless...because then you just come across as whimpy when you confront someone on it.

 

What happens if she contacts OM at this point?

[amerikajin]

Owl,

 

I think we're not really too far apart in terms of our opinions. Perhaps we might disagree slightly on some of the specific steps take and when to take them.

 

My experience was very similar with Seibert's.

 

I spent about a month living in limbo after d-day, and after my wife was told not to come to live with OM...by OM. He was the one who 'broke it off' somewhat with her then.

 

During that month, my situation was VERY much like Seibert described of his..."fog", repeatedly lying to the MC about continued contact, etc... All the while I tried to win her back, and was working with her to prepare for a seperation.

 

That last week, I'd had enough. She continued to pick fights, blame me, and I STOPPED putting up with it. When she indicated that the seperation would be for a year, minimum, I had enough. I told her point blank that I would NOT seperate for a year to see how things would turn out...I would file for divorce instead, and move on with my life...with or without her.

 

The next day I spoke to a lawyer and got information on how divorce works in our state, and laid it out for her.

 

That night, she truly made her choice to reconcile.

 

I really think that Shocked needs to make a similar choice to put an end to her games...one way or another.

 

FWIW, I think you took exactly the right approach. You found out about her infidelity. You communicated to her from the beginning that, although you were extremely angry with her (and justifiably so), you were willing to continue to see where things provided that she take some responsibility on her end. You gave her a chance to straighten herself out. When she didn't, you took action. And the type of action you took, and the way you presented it to her, is extremely important to note: you didn't try to control her, you tried to control yourself, and you told her in no uncertain terms that you were going on with your life and it was up to her to be an adult and start taking responsibility for her behavior. That is the essence of being a man. The light bulb turned on in her head and she probably realized for the first time that she'd better sort herself out.

 

I fully concede that I may be wrong, because each situation is somewhat different. What works with one couple might not work with the next. But my own opinion is, I don't think you would have been as successful had you gone straight for the divorce papers. Again, maybe you would have -- there's no way to know. But I think it's better to take progressive steps, with the important caveat being that a person be prepared to take decisive action just as you did. If you don't back up your words with action, you indeed become the doormat.

[amerikajin]

I will be sure to keep this post updated with how things are progressing with my wife and I. Like I stated before I am going to give a couple more marriage counseling session before I draw a hard line in the sand for my wife. Some of you may agree to this tactic some of you may not.

 

You know, I thought more about this. Originally I said that you might want to give her a specific deadline, but maybe that's not the right approach. Perhaps you should just tell her that you're not going to keep putting up with this and that the time is running out and leave it at that. Set your own private deadline and stick to it. I think the two counseling sessions is actually a very reasonable personal deadline. You don't have to tell her the specifics, just tell her that you're not going to keep putting up with this crap and then, if two sessions come and go and there's no change, move out -- move out for a pre-determined time of your choosing and stick to it. She'll probably start crying and pitching a fit...be careful not to be swayed by that nonsense if it comes to that. If you end up deciding to move out for a month, then move out for the month and stick to it. Tell her you want to see definitive proof over the next few weeks and that this is her last chance. The next move is to the lawyer's office. Although I agree with your counselor that ultimatums should be a last resort, I also agree with owl: you have to be ready to take care of yourself and let the other person deal with real consequences.

 

I have seen some improvement and some progress in things as well as some setbacks. I have noticed that the contact via text message has curtailed a bit over the past couple days between her and the OM.

 

It may be a small step, but its a step. I want to think that some good came out of our conversation on Monday night after all it was her that called me the next day on her way to work to make sure we had a set appointment to see the marriage counselor even suggesting that we do it earlier than planned.

 

Who is to say what is going to happen in the next coming weeks. She knows I will not stand for continued contact. I have to let the marriage counseling work and she does to. I also have to be prepared for option 2 and put it into action if I do not see any improvement.

 

Thank you all again and I look forward to talking soon.

 

Focus first on the progress you have made. Whatever works, keep doing it. I think the most important thing is to get her into counseling. Now, I suspect that there are going to be some major revelations about herself that will come up in counseling. Don't be surprised if she reacts and even over-reacts at first and threatens to quit counseling. It's hard for someone who doesn't want to accept responsibility for their behavior to start taking that responsibility. But that's exactly what this counselor is going to do. He's going to force her to see that she's not some angel who's been neglected, the way that she believes she is. He's going to make her see that she has been her own worst enemy at times. He will also present to you some of your own issues in the marriage. That's what a good counselor does. I think they can be crucial in rehabilitating a marriage. Not because they're magicians, but because they know the dynamics of a marriage and they're objective, neutral.

[Owl]

I would agree...had I gone straight to divorce papers, she would have gone straight to OM's house with no thought about what the end result would have been.

 

As twisted as this may sound...it was a GOOD thing that he bought her plane tickets so that she could come live with him. It all happened so fast that the concept of living with him got tied into her affair...and so when he told her not to come live with him, it was a bigger blow to her than he intended...and that helped precipitate the true end of the affair.

 

I would agree that you don't go straight to the divorce papers....BUT...that "progression" has to be fast enough to prevent the WS from getting themselves ready to make drastic changes. Part of the effectiveness is in the sheer finality and speed with which you move everything...it prevents them from regaining control of the situation.

 

The OP here has fought his battles here already...and he needs to take strong, definitive action BEFORE his wife is ready to counter it. Don't give her a REASONABLE deadline if you give one...the intent here is for YOU to retain the control...not her.

 

It's NOT intended as a permanent power shift...once she starts thinking rationally, the two of you can go back to a power-share situation...but right now, when she's only thinking for herself...you need to be the one in control of the situation.

 

I hope this makes sense.

[Shockedhusband]

I have a question for the guys on here helping me out. What are the symptoms of withdrawl

 

I have noticed that since my wife and I talked on Monday night there has been a significant decrease in cell phone contact with the OM. Minimal text messages and no calls what so ever.

 

She has not told me that she has cut off contact or clearly stated to me that what ever relationship the two of them had is over but she has been very quiet not really talking to me that much and she seems to be picking fights with me, being generally pissy and going from happy to pissed on the drop of a hat.

 

Our neighbors were over last night to watch the hockey game and he noticed it all night. He told me he couldn't believe how my wife was treating me being generally mean to me all night long.

 

Like I said I am not sure if this anger toward me is brought on by withdrawl, or could it possibly a manifestation of the guilt she is experiencing right now

[delirious]

I have a question for the guys on here helping me out. What are the symptoms of withdrawl

 

I have noticed that since my wife and I talked on Monday night there has been a significant decrease in cell phone contact with the OM. Minimal text messages and no calls what so ever.

 

She has not told me that she has cut off contact or clearly stated to me that what ever relationship the two of them had is over but she has been very quiet not really talking to me that much and she seems to be picking fights with me, being generally pissy and going from happy to pissed on the drop of a hat.

 

Our neighbors were over last night to watch the hockey game and he noticed it all night. He told me he couldn't believe how my wife was treating me being generally mean to me all night long.

 

Like I said I am not sure if this anger toward me is brought on by withdrawl, or could it possibly a manifestation of the guilt she is experiencing right now

 

I would say she would be unhappy that the person who made her happy is not able to anymore. You have to take over now and make her happy. What did she get from this other relationship, was it compliments for instance, attention, feeling wanted. If you want this to work, you have to find out what is missing. I think she would be angry that you have stopped her feeling happy, in a screwed up way, the relationship with you has to change. But everyone reacts differently, it would be hard to say. When she is indifferent to you however I think that is when to worry.