Is anyone out there??? *raises a flag*

[Sagelily]

I Have Been A Bit Surprised At The Negativity From Some People Here...It's Kept Me Pretty Quiet. Sticks And Stones, I Guess...

[OWoman]

I Have Been A Bit Surprised At The Negativity From Some People Here...It's Kept Me Pretty Quiet. Sticks And Stones, I Guess...

 

Sage, there will always be haters. There are some really bitter people who have been badly hurt, one way or another, and others who've been directly anointed by the deity of their choice to conduct a mission to bludgeon us infidels into submission. Ignore them. There are also some people who listen, who think, and who CARE. Focus on those who have something to offer, not those who wish to still the noises inside their own heads by inflicting pain on others.

 

Hang in there.

[Mr. Lucky]

Sure. I think there's a way to meet both of these goals without resorting to condemnation, moralising or berating.

I agree that the discourse needs to be kept civil. I'm not sure how one avoids "moralising" as morality is part of the discussion

I'm so beyond this!

Well, then you're conduct is exactly what I was referring to.

If some MP who has made a commitment to some other person CHOOSES to get involved with someone else - guess what? That's THEIR choice! And if their BS doesn't like it, they're free to respond in whatever way they choose, and deal with the consequences.

That would be fine except most WS don't disclose their behavior early on - or ever - to give the BS a chance to "respond" on equal footing. I agree that, all cards on the table, everyone is capable of making their own choices. This rarely happens.

At this stage of my life I am not going to lock myself inside a house and never do anything for fear of potentially upsetting someone else - how could I vote if I knew that potentially half the country would disagree with my choice, and be upset by it?

Again, when you're voting in an election, you're doing so based on imformation that is available to the entire electorate. The WS and the BS normally aren't offered this equal standing.

Worrying about someone else's potential pain for something that is perfectly legal, perfectly in keeping with one's own morality and for which one is perfectly willing to face the consequences is IMO immature.

I'm not talking about the consequences for you but rather the impact on others. That you would have so little disregard for that strikes me as cold...

 

Mr. Lucky

[frannie]

I agree that the discourse needs to be kept civil. I'm not sure how one avoids "moralising" as morality is part of the discussion.

 

Morality does not have to be part of the discussion.

[wharfrat1987]

I am a very recent xOM. I fell totally in love with the woman I was involved with. This was something that I always felt I was too moral and too smart to participate in. But here I am now and going through quite a bit of pain as a result of MY actions. My MW, through much pain of her own, has decided that she is going to endure her marriage for the sake of her children. Since I do truly love her and only want her to be happy, I am willing to let her go without trying to coerce or persuade her to continue. I do have to see her daily at work, and we have decided that it would be best to remain friends.....and this damn near kills me inside. I probably deserve every bit of pain I am feeling right now. I do know that I have been beating myself up pretty badly about what I have done and what has happened, so I would appreciate if others would refrain with posting their judgements. I know that what WE did was wrong. I knew that I could be hurt. I had never imagined in a million years that I would find myself in this position....and am very angry with myself for going against my better judgement. Unfortunately, the heart rarely listens to "better judgement". I have now learned a very painful lesson, and I will NEVER, YES NEVER, repeat this mistake again. I have never had an A before this and will never do so again. It is still hard to know that my MW is willing to stay in an emotionally and sexually bankrupt marriage to make her children happy, but I have no control over her actions or desires. She knows I would do anything to make her happy, but she has stated that her children come first, her family second, and her LAST! If that is her choice, I must respect it and move on. To know that she has decided to endure in her marriage is a hard pill for me to swallow, but it is really NONE OF MY BUSINESS. I truly screwed up BIG TIME, and am paying the price at a very high emotional and physical cost. I am truly regretful that I also took part in something that would cause the BS pain. As far as I can see, there are no winners whatsoever in this situation. I know she cared for me, but it makes me wonder how much at times. Now, her life and her feelings are none of my business. What makes it most difficult is that I still have to see her on a daily basis and know that in the end, no matter how much we care for each other, she will not be leaving her marriage no matter how painful and bankrupt it is.

 

I hope this post does not come off as trying to justify what I did. There is no justification. I am paying the price because of it, and as I am sure I will be told by many, I deserve it.

[Mr. Lucky]

Morality does not have to be part of the discussion.

 

If morality is defined as "The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct; A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct", then why wouldn't it be part of the discussion ?

 

Mr. Lucky

[desertmoon]

I was a BS, (well technically, I AM still a BS, but I do not consider myself BETRAYED anymore). I am, for more than 3 years , an OW. No regrets. And no feeling bad for the wife.

 

I do not seek to inflict pain to the wife or the MM's family. I do not connive and plan ways to "make" him hate his wife or encourage him to leave. I am just enjoying my time with him.

 

If their marriage dissolves, well...marriages end...so what? Things like this happen. I get so tired of listening to people whine about this...asking.."but why did it happen to ME?????" why not? do they think they are above the rest? special? perfect? entitled? <shrug>

 

All I know is that it is ok to mourn the end of a relationship, but not ok to destroy one's life over it...we all have a responsibility to ourselves and to our children.

[Mio]

If morality is defined as "The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct; A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct", then why wouldn't it be part of the discussion ?

 

Because it's arrogant. It's basically you (and others) imposing their system of values and beliefs on the OP. Because you can't stand the cognitive dissonance of watching another human being behaving in a way that you might not. Because it's really all about you, and not a genuine desire to help the OP.

[OWoman]

If morality is defined as "The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct; A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct", then why wouldn't it be part of the discussion ?

 

If the assumption is that YOUR morality is THE morality, and that others should share and conform to it, then it's arrogant, judgmental and at times downright hostile. There are many moralities in the world; If people are living in happy accod with their own morality, who are you to push your morality - which they've already rejected in choosing their own - onto them as if theirs is somehow deficient for being different?

[Mr. Lucky]

If the assumption is that YOUR morality is THE morality, and that others should share and conform to it, then it's arrogant, judgmental and at times downright hostile. There are many moralities in the world; If people are living in happy accod with their own morality, who are you to push your morality - which they've already rejected in choosing their own - onto them as if theirs is somehow deficient for being different?

So you don't think that there's any conduct that reasonable people can agree is wrong? As long as someone is "living in happy accord" with their own conduct, they should be able to do anything without judgement or repercussion? Lie? Steal? Cheat? Injure? Deceive? And it's all OK as long as the perpetrator can sleep when his or her head hits the pillow at night.

 

I guess that explains some of what I read here...

 

Mr. Lucky

[OWoman]

So you don't think that there's any conduct that reasonable people can agree is wrong? As long as someone is "living in happy accord" with their own conduct, they should be able to do anything without judgement or repercussion? Lie? Steal? Cheat? Injure? Deceive? And it's all OK as long as the perpetrator can sleep when his or her head hits the pillow at night.

 

I guess that explains some of what I read here...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I didn't say that "as long as someone is 'living in happy accord' with their own conduct, they should be able to do anything without judgment or repercussion" - that's what laws are for.

 

But if their behaviour is perfectly legal, AND in accord with their own morality, it's pretty arrogant to demand that they adopt your moral code and share your outrage at their behaviour.

 

For example, in many countries polygamy is legal. But some American christian may find it abhorrent. If someone raised under one of those cultures where it's perfectly fine posts about taking a second wife, and the American rips into them with venom about "how could they do such a thing because (the american god) would never sanction such an abomination", that's bigoted and arrogant and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding beyond one's own frame of reference.

 

Do I think there is "any conduct that reasonable people can agree is wrong"? Probably not, as everything is modified by its circumstances. We may blithely agree that taking another human life is wrong, but some governments happily send their kids off to die and kill invading other sovereign states; others kill or die defending their loved ones during violent burglaries; and still others act out of compassion in euthenasing terminally ill people begging to die with dignity. The fact that opinion is so divided on all of these examples shows that, no, even "reasonable" people (and we're talking full judicial benches differing, not just oiks in the street) can agree on something simplistic like "what is wrong".

 

And using emotive language like "perpetrator" serves merely to inflame rather than to shed light - and certainly doesn't render the person using it in a supposedly neutral context as "reasonable"...

[NoIDidn't]

...that's bigoted and arrogant and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding beyond one's own frame of reference...

 

 

Can't say that people decide right and wrong for themselves based on their own code and frame of reference and then say that a person's actual using of their frame of reference is wrong.

[OWoman]

Can't say that people decide right and wrong for themselves based on their own code and frame of reference and then say that a person's actual using of their frame of reference is wrong.

 

NID - sure, they decide FOR THEMSELVES; they can't decide FOR OTHERS who don't share their system of values or beliefs, so long as the behaviour of those others in in accord with the law of the country (or UN Articles, in cases of international war crimes) in which that behaviour takes place.

 

I find stoning of rape survivors for "adultery" abhorrent - but if it takes place in a country where that is the law, my opinion remains my opinion on the matter. I can campaign to have the law changed, or adopt any other form of protest to challenge it, but it remains legal and the conduct of those people remains acceptable within their moral code, however unpalatable I find it.

 

Now, if they were to try that in MY country, it would be a different story - even if they're still acting consistently with their moral code, the laws here are very very different!

[Trialbyfire]

I'm an ex-BW and yes, I agree that it's morally reprehensile to leverage off other peoples' unhappiness to gain personal happiness. But...people will do whatever they're going to do and earn their positive or negative karmic points!

 

Btw, I rarely wander back into this forum of battles. There's vitriol spewed on both sides, if people are honest with themselves and each other. Guaranteed, there are no angels in this forum!

[NoIDidn't]

NID - sure, they decide FOR THEMSELVES; they can't decide FOR OTHERS who don't share their system of values or beliefs, so long as the behaviour of those others in in accord with the law of the country (or UN Articles, in cases of international war crimes) in which that behaviour takes place.

 

Even when you put it that way, its still problematic. Just because something isn't illegal, doesn't make it right. Its not against the law for people to be rude to those in retail sales, but its not right either.

 

Using your beliefs as my example, its wrong for a person to decide to engage in an affair with my husband just because they don't believe in marriage. Just as wrong as it would be for my husband to engage in an affair with said person.

 

But I digress, because this will begin to go around in the usual circle - eventually (not just you and I).

[NoIDidn't]

Guaranteed, there are no angels in this forum!

 

I KNOW that's right! LOL.

[OWoman]

Even when you put it that way' date=' its still problematic. Just because something isn't illegal, doesn't make it right. Its not against the law for people to be rude to those in retail sales, but its not right either.[/quote']

 

This is where policy comes in - which is kind of "law in a smaller, locallised venue". Most retail outlets prominently display "right of admission reserved" notices at their entrances, to allow them to evict people who do not abide by their policies (such as "do not be rude to our staff"). Those who act in defiance of the policies can be removed from the premises should said staff request.

 

I share your view that "it's not right" to be rude to those in retail sales, as do management in those outlets. But if EVERYBODY shared that view, there'd be no need for those policies or procedures to protect the staff. And no consequences enacted for those who fail to observe them.

 

Using your beliefs as my example' date=' its wrong for a person to decide to engage in an affair with my husband just because they don't believe in marriage. Just as wrong as it would be for my husband to engage in an affair with said person. [/quote']

 

I don't follow your reasoning here . Are you saying that because your H doesn't share my belief system, hitting on him would be wrong? I'd disagree - unless I FORCED him into an A against his will, making a proposition to someone merely seeks to establish whether or not they wish ot participate (and, by extension, whether or not they share or accede to your value system). If he CHOOSES to participate, then either (1) his value system on that matter is not so different to mine, after all; or (2) he is acting out of accord with his own value system, which makes HIS actions wrong.

 

But I'm not sure I've understood your point?

[Mr. Lucky]

I didn't say that "as long as someone is 'living in happy accord' with their own conduct, they should be able to do anything without judgment or repercussion" - that's what laws are for.

 

But if their behaviour is perfectly legal, AND in accord with their own morality, it's pretty arrogant to demand that they adopt your moral code and share your outrage at their behaviour.

 

For example, in many countries polygamy is legal. But some American christian may find it abhorrent. If someone raised under one of those cultures where it's perfectly fine posts about taking a second wife, and the American rips into them with venom about "how could they do such a thing because (the american god) would never sanction such an abomination", that's bigoted and arrogant and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding beyond one's own frame of reference.

 

Do I think there is "any conduct that reasonable people can agree is wrong"? Probably not, as everything is modified by its circumstances. We may blithely agree that taking another human life is wrong, but some governments happily send their kids off to die and kill invading other sovereign states; others kill or die defending their loved ones during violent burglaries; and still others act out of compassion in euthenasing terminally ill people begging to die with dignity. The fact that opinion is so divided on all of these examples shows that, no, even "reasonable" people (and we're talking full judicial benches differing, not just oiks in the street) can agree on something simplistic like "what is wrong".

 

And using emotive language like "perpetrator" serves merely to inflame rather than to shed light - and certainly doesn't render the person using it in a supposedly neutral context as "reasonable"...

A perpetrator is simply someone who perpetrates wrongdoing. And someone engaging in an affair (I understand that others may not agree) is, in light of the commitment they made to their spouse, doing the wrong thing. They're not monsters, sociopaths or any of the other labels used by some in this context, they're simply human beings. We're all fallible, we all make mistakes. We can, within the framework of this forum, love the sinner but hate the sin.

Because you can't stand the cognitive dissonance of watching another human being behaving in a way that you might not. Because it's really all about you, and not a genuine desire to help the OP.

I couldn't disagree more. I woundn't begin to summarize your POV on marriage and cheating (perhaps you could state it yourself?) but I think there is value in telling posters that, in engaging in an affair, they're being unfair to their spouse and that they should terminate the affair or the marriage. If that's not helpful (and understanding that this is an advice and feedback forum), what recommendation do you give OP's in that position?

 

Mr. Lucky

[NoIDidn't]

If that's not helpful (and understanding that this is an advice and feedback forum), what recommendation do you give OP's in that position?

 

To continue down the selfish path of seeking their own happiness at the expense of others, but know that there will be difficulties along this path mainly in the form of the Morality Police.

 

To excuse them as they are only human as if somehow being human allows us to forget that humans are capable of empathy and compassion.

 

And, to tell them to stubbornly ignore all detractors who may actually be trying to help even if one disagrees with their methods.

[Mio]

If that's not helpful (and understanding that this is an advice and feedback forum), what recommendation do you give OP's in that position?

 

An OP in this situation is motivated by strong feelings. The appropriate and helpful approach (and the one that counsellors use) is to validate those feelings and explore their beliefs and values with them. This sets up the possibility that the OP will re-frame their situation and choose a new behaviour.

 

Moralising and telling someone else what to do is not going to move most people, save for a tiny minority whose punishing consciences respond to injections of guilt and shame. Such people are likely to offend again as they never resolve their needs in a healthy fashion.

[jasminetea]

Isn't this more about how the advice is delivered rather than what is actually said?

 

Maybe those OW/M that no longer feel able to have compassion for the BS or feel responsible in anyway have just had too much aggressiveness directed their way?

 

Just a thought.....

 

I was a BS once btw and never an OW.

 

Oh and Trial by Fire?

Guaranteed, there are no angels in this forum!

See my halo?

 

[OWoman]

Isn't this more about how the advice is delivered rather than what is actually said?

 

Maybe those OW/M that no longer feel able to have compassion for the BS or feel responsible in anyway have just had too much aggressiveness directed their way?

 

Just a thought.....

 

Good point.

 

Also, it's very seldom that an OW/M hs NO compassion for ANY BS - that's pretty clear from comments on other threads. But often there are circumstances pertaining to their own situations which may not be apparent or known to others which have depleted or prevented any compassion towards the BS in their particular situation. While there may well be someone out there somewhere, I've certainly never seen an OM or OW here who completely lacks compassion towards ANY BS at all.

 

Though, I have seen quite a few BSs who have demonstrated a complete inability towards compassion for ANY OM or OW at all.

[JamesM]

Isn't this more about how the advice is delivered rather than what is actually said?

 

 

This is the crux of the problem when BSs post on the OW/OM Board. Their anger and bitterness cannot help but seep out into their "advice." Funny thing is...most do not recognize this bitterness.

 

I have seen quite a few BSs who have demonstrated a complete inability towards compassion for ANY OM or OW at all.

 

As you know, I have had plenty of run ins with BSs because I have a hard time seeing them post on this forum when it is obvious that they cannot do so objectively. And I do not fault them for this...I don't know if I could do so either if my wife had an affair.

 

I am not sure though that we can compare BSs to OW/OMs. A betrayal of infidelity cuts deep to the soul. While the ending of an affair does hurt deeply for an OW or OM, I don't think the hurt is as deep as it is when one's partner breaks his or her marriage vows.

 

It is easier for an OW or OM to post on the infidelity board than it is for a BS to post here. And that is why I do not think that most should post here.

[lovestruck818]

What's a BS?

 

I am currently an OW. Story plays out like this: I recently became friends with a new group of people down where I live. One of the guys is this gorgeous guy married to, well, a not so attractive woman. He is really nice. The first time we met we chatted a lot and laughed and that was really it but then I saw him on the train one day home from work. He asked me if I wanted to hang out that night and I said I was ok with it as long as his wife was. He told me she doesn't really care what he does. He ended up coming over and we drank for a bit and made out- no sex, just making out, ya know the fun stuff. Anyway, so he has been taking me to lunch, steak dinner, skiing...and while all of this nice and new and exciting...i am worried b/c I do not want to ruin my friendship with him, hid wife or anyone else in the group. He is young and recently married and I guess he is having a hard time adjusting to married life. I know this probably wrong of me to get involved...but it is what it is at the moment...and as long as it goes no further, I don't have too much of a problem with it.

 

Anyway, that's my story.

 

Soooo...got a nasty little e-mail from his wife last night. It states: "Do you remember me. I'm ******'s WIFE. I'll tell you this little girl...you are messing with the wrong girl...I know more than you think." I'm not really sure what that means but I showed it to him and he didn't seem concerned. He is going to speak to her tonight. I am a little pissed just b/c this is not one-sided...HE initiated everything with me and I feel like she should have just spoken to him about it first instead of just going behind his back and e-mailing me like he did nothing wrong.

[jasminetea]

Good point.Though, I have seen quite a few BSs who have demonstrated a complete inability towards compassion for ANY OM or OW at all.

I can't believe that you're surprised by that?

 

When in the initial throes of coming to terms with being cheated on (with women who knew all about me, btw), I could happily have seen each and every one suffer the worst kind of torture. I would have found this place wonderful for me to vent my anger and disbelief at OW in general, and I'm sure many BS's feel that way. Also, I don't think it would do them any harm and could, potentially, be a great release.

 

However, I am now in a place where I can feel genuine compassion and pity for any woman who finds herself loving a man who isn't loving her back in the way she must need and want. But that's taken a long time and until posters have to prove that they are either an OW or a BS who's over it, this place will always be a great punch bag for BSes. I think it maybe a case of finding your own forum where BS aren't allowed, sucking it up, or demonstrating real compassion for the BS who come here to lash out.

 

By offering care and understanding, you may just get it back.