dnm Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I never realised this was such a big deal...? Link to post Share on other sites
sally4sara Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I never realised this was such a big deal...? Neither did I. It seems like no matter why a person feels they way they do about their opinion, it has to imply an eff ton more about them than simply that. I don't agree with it, so I'm a feminazi and think I'll have to bed a guy down if I accept. They do agree and *some* have listed some valid points as to why, but they're all gold diggers now. Christ, I wouldn't even be posting on this thread anymore if my name hadn't been drug back up some, what?, seven pages later? Its been beat to death! Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Wow, this is like one of my threads, sheesh! I think Lucky left unfortunately. To put the thread back on topic, it basically comes down to your opinions on who should pay. Debating what is right and what is wrong is irrelevant. Everyone is entitled to feel the way they want about something. Lucky was still here yesterday she did not leave she actually provided an update. In 2009, women STILL do feel that the man should be the one to pay for things. It's not wrong or right, it's just an opinion. If a man had posted this thread saying that he thought the woman should pay for everything would we REALLY be having this debate? YES. If you don't like this discussion you always have the choice to stay out of it. Totally agree with this: Bottom line, don't be selfish and ALWAYS make someone else pay your way. Just try to keep things on as even a keel as you can. I do understand, though, the warm fuzzy feeling a woman gets when she is asked out by a guy, she accepts because there's that initial attraction, and he takes her somewhere nice and offers to pay. It's just his way of being chivalrous in this day and age where such rarely exists. I also agree that if you are in a relationship and one party earns way more than the other and wants to enjoy high priced times out and aren't satisfied with a less expensive date, then that person should foot the bill for such dates. I pay when my man and I go out and sometimes he pays. We both earn pretty much the same, so we also have pretty much the same taste in places to go. Neither of us feels used or abused by the other. I like to be generous when I can, and so does he Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 But there happen to be countries where going dutch on the first dates IS the norm. Really? Name those countries where going Dutch is the norm. I am very interested. And here is an important peice of history in terms of how the phrase "going Dutch" came about: In the 17th century the Brits hated the Dutch and would attach the word "Dutch" to any phrase that was considered backwards or strange, and with the aim to insult came up with: Dutch Treat: "treating" someone but actually sticking it to them (going dutch) by making them pay for the treat. Dutch Courage: excessive bravery brought on by alcohol use, fake courage. Dutch Uncle: a person who is considered friendly but who also gives you cutting blunt criticism. Dutch Auction: an item is offered at a high price but then the lowest bidder wins. As you can see in all cases the term "Dutch" is used to signify something that is in fact backwards from the original interpretation. It's no wonder some women feel insulted when they are asked out on a date, and they actually find out it is NOT a date since they are asked to pay their share. Here in Canada we call that "Indian giving" but that is a very antiquated term not to mention it is politically incorrect/racist. Link to post Share on other sites
The Collector Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 It's no wonder some women feel insulted when they are asked out on a date, and they actually find out it is NOT a date since they are asked to pay their share. Even after 20 pages and numerous similar threads I still can't get over the sense of unfounded entitlement in such a statement. How can you be insulted at paying for yourself? With a man who doesn't even know you yet? I can sort of see when a woman says she likes it, appreciates it, it makes her feel special and she doesn't argue too much if the man insists. But when it turns into such an expectation, it's 'no wonder' that men find it incredibly rude, spoilt, diva-ish and unattractive. I'm not attacking you Tomcat, but I wonder why you can't see it from a man's point of view. It may be a nice thing to do for a woman, but it's not your 'right.' Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Yeah, I'd assign neutrality to the whole deal. Any positives come from the dynamics of the interaction. I trust there are still plenty of ways to insult a woman after paying for (or intending to pay for) the date. Why should I miss out on one more? Link to post Share on other sites
Cherry Blossom 35 Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I'm not going to spill all my thoughts here right now, but there is one thing I will comment on. When a guy asks me out, and takes me to a really nice restaurant of his choosing, I will get a little miffed if he doesn't pay. Sometimes I am watching my budget and I don't want to pay for $50-60 dinner. If I don't have the choice of restaurant, I find this to be a little unfair. Link to post Share on other sites
Jo78 Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I actually always preferred to go 50/50 on first dates and see how it goes. If he paid, it created the uncomfortable feeling of expectations on my part, as if I 'owed' him something because he paid for my dinner. Link to post Share on other sites
mr.dream merchant Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Tomcat needs to get with Frank Sinatra. Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 If I don't have the choice of restaurant, I find this to be a little unfair. Agreed. I generally asked a lady's preference and respected it. Does that make a difference regarding fairness? Link to post Share on other sites
The Collector Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 You seriously ask a gal to pay half on a first date when you've asked her out? Yup, and after 20 years of dating it's honestly never been a problem. Maybe it's the circles I move in with girls who tend to be arty/musicians/feminist-leaning/European/whatever, or maybe I'm such a catch that they don't mind. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
james123 Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Agreed. I generally asked a lady's preference and respected it. Does that make a difference regarding fairness? Me, too. I always ask the woman where she'd like to go. Link to post Share on other sites
The Collector Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I also never do dinner dates. Link to post Share on other sites
sally4sara Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I'm not going to spill all my thoughts here right now, but there is one thing I will comment on. When a guy asks me out, and takes me to a really nice restaurant of his choosing, I will get a little miffed if he doesn't pay. Sometimes I am watching my budget and I don't want to pay for $50-60 dinner. If I don't have the choice of restaurant, I find this to be a little unfair. Absolutely. It leaves a person feeling like they're dealing with a car salesperson. This is why no one, male or female, should expect the first few dates to be big ordeals. Its why no one should look at how much another spends to feed them as equating how attractive the payer think you are. When its looked in the terms of $ = attractiveness of a practical stranger it feeds into the whole women seek money and men seek sex mindset. THEN it might as well be prostitution. Who wants that vibe for new beginnings? First few dates should be light productions. Getting to know someone shouldn't immediately be about how much money the one makes. There are miles and miles of qualities one should be way more concerned with before even wondering about the person's monetary earnings. Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I prefer something more casual for a first date also, and I don't assess a man's worth by how much money he spends on me. You see, I am the EXACT same way. I can drink like a fish if I want to I keep to two drinks three max for several reasons, also if we do go out to dinner and it's someone I alreayd sort of know I am very modest in ordering food because I appreciate his gesture I am not there to eat I am there to get to know him. I don't measure his worth on the size of the bill he buys either I DO measure his intereste level on the gesture of paying. BIG difference. Even after 20 pages and numerous similar threads I still can't get over the sense of unfounded entitlement in such a statement. How can you be insulted at paying for yourself? With a man who doesn't even know you yet? I can sort of see when a woman says she likes it, appreciates it, it makes her feel special and she doesn't argue too much if the man insists. But when it turns into such an expectation, it's 'no wonder' that men find it incredibly rude, spoilt, diva-ish and unattractive. I'm not attacking you Tomcat, but I wonder why you can't see it from a man's point of view. It may be a nice thing to do for a woman, but it's not your 'right.' I appreciate you are willing to talk about this an are refraining from calling me a freeloader, prostitute and golddigger which is initially what got my back up in all the instances we were arguing back and forth I DO resent that because it couldn't be further the from the truth. But I should point out that the only one trying to "quantify" what a date is in terms of putting monetary value on it has been yourself and a handful of other men trying to iron out what is reasonable amount of money to pay on a date!?!? Which leads me to point out that you have consistently MISSED my point in terms of what I feel is is NICE to receive on a first date, VS some imaginary sense of entitlement you deem me as having. The "act of paying" is what is nice, not the fact that he can drop $100+ on a date. It could be him paying for two coffees, just says to me that on top of all the feelings I was having throught the night of enjoying the man's company, body, soul and his mind, it says to me that HE too found me on the same level of romantic interest since he is going out of his way to BE generous and offering to pay. It's the icing on the cake NOT a prequisite. If I were to require that I would let men that I am NOT intersted in pay, which I DON'T. Nor do I serial date, I don't need to be out an about being "taken care" of by men who's company I don't enjoy I can pay my own entertainment and I would MUCH rather spend MY time which is precious TO ME, with the people I do enjoy. You want me to see it from your point of you? Cool, I would really like that. What is your point of view, what is the reasoning behind asking a woman out on a date, and getting the check and splitting hairs in order to make sure she pays her share? Please explain it to me so that now I can understand your motives. What are you looking for when you ask a woman to pay her share, or better yet the entire thing as you said you do like to do? Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Absolutely. It leaves a person feeling like they're dealing with a car salesperson. This is why no one, male or female, should expect the first few dates to be big ordeals. Its why no one should look at how much another spends to feed them as equating how attractive the payer think you are. When its looked in the terms of $ = attractiveness of a practical stranger it feeds into the whole women seek money and men seek sex mindset. THEN it might as well be prostitution. Who wants that vibe for new beginnings? Excuse me but may I suggest you look up the word prostitution? You keep throwing it around, amongst all the other nonsense you keep bringing up AS IF it had ANY relevancy in this discussion. A prostitute, for your information, sells sex for money. A man paying for drinks or dinner on a date is HARDLY the same thing. Again, if you really can't make the distinction it leaves me wondering EXCATLY WHAT goes on in your first dates if it's all the same to you. Remind me to never send you out for take-out food, you might show up back with a street walker instead. Link to post Share on other sites
Habibti Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Yeah, I handle this problem real easily. NEXT. Link to post Share on other sites
The Collector Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 What is your point of view, what is the reasoning behind asking a woman out on a date, and getting the check and splitting hairs in order to make sure she pays her share? Please explain it to me so that now I can understand your motives. What are you looking for when you ask a woman to pay her share, or better yet the entire thing as you said you do like to do? Well like I say I don't do dinner dates, mainly because I find them a bit formal and unnatural. I don't even care for the term 'date' I'm more likely to suggest meeting up for a few drinks. Then I would buy the first round, and then tell her it's her turn. If she pressed me on the matter, or I'm asked to explain as I am here, I guess I'd say I'm not into buying a woman's time (not buying her, as I was misquoted as saying earlier) and tease her about being a golddigger, haha. If she is insulted, she's not my type, but it's never been a problem. Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I think paying for social companionship is called paying for "escorting". Sex doesn't have to be involved. I also never do dinner dates. Never? How does that work? With 20 years of dating under your belt, there must be a methodology at work. I went on quite a few dinner dates during my two-plus decades of "dating". I'm curious about this Link to post Share on other sites
The Collector Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I'm not so sure on that "such a catch" thing. Not to say you're not, because I wouldn't presume to know you, but you have a way ofputting people down a lot here on LS. Do you do that IRL, or do you find it easier in the anonymity of a forum such as this? Oh I'm very charming in real life. Girls often like to be teased and challenged, but I'm probably more argumentative on this forum as I don't find myself posting to say 'yes I agree.' Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I think paying for social companionship is called paying for "escorting". Sex doesn't have to be involved. Is that what you do when you invite a client out you are trying to impress or win them over. You are "escorting" them? I that what you do when take your best bud to the footbal game and treat him to tickets, you are "escorting" your best bud? Please. Escorting is just a fancy name used as a decoy for PROSTITUTION in places where it is NOT LEGAL. Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Well like I say I don't do dinner dates, mainly because I find them a bit formal and unnatural. I don't even care for the term 'date' I'm more likely to suggest meeting up for a few drinks. Then I would buy the first round, and then tell her it's her turn. If she pressed me on the matter, or I'm asked to explain as I am here, I guess I'd say I'm not into buying a woman's time (not buying her, as I was misquoted as saying earlier) and tease her about being a golddigger, haha. If she is insulted, she's not my type, but it's never been a problem. I would find it so incredibly tacky that a man tell me "ok it's your turn to by this round" Anyway, different strokes... What is your reasoning behind that though you have not shared with us why this is important or what it proves to you to be able to do that? Link to post Share on other sites
dnm Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I would find it so incredibly tacky that a man tell me "ok it's your turn to by this round" Anyway, different strokes... What is your reasoning behind that though you have not shared with us why this is important or what it proves to you to be able to do that? I do't understand why you are getting so worked up over this. Like you said, each to his own. I haven't come across many guys who asked me to pay, I just volunteered to because I prefer paying for myself. Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Good points, TC. Thanks. Now we are just pulling at straws.. I do't understand why you are getting so worked up over this. Like you said, each to his own. Who's worked up? :laugh: If you haven't noticed yet I LOVE debating this topic, what's the problem here? I really don't see the point of some of you that feel the need to comment on why we are discussing this, if it bothers you that much just move along there are like a 1000 other threads you could be contributing to. Simple really. you don't see me complaining about your thread which has been going on and on and on about the EXACT same thing, do you? Each their own, right? ;-) Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Is that what you do when you invite a client out you are trying to impress or win them over. You are "escorting" them? I that what you do when take your best bud to the footbal game and treat him to tickets, you are "escorting" your best bud? Please. Escorting is just a fancy name used as a decoy for PROSTITUTION in places where it is NOT LEGAL. Don't watch sports in general, but I have been such an escort for those who do like social companionship and have no issues paying for it. Even women Since I don't mix business and pleasure, social companionship doesn't apply to business functions, and, generally, we each pay our own tab. I don't wine and dine clients. My business isn't that type of business. I do keep beer in the shop refer though. Complimentary Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts