(warning: "Nice guy" rant) Girls don't want to be treated good.

[scratch]

While I certainly feel strongly that you made some excellent points, Scratch, I feel it doesn't specifically apply to me.. In the post of mine you quoted I said I'm nice to everyone I meet, whether I want a relationship with them or not. It's just who I am - it goes back to an abusive childhood which I've overcome with the help of a lot of therapy, but the end result has been me just generally being a nice person to everyone. I know this all sounds like I'm bragging or something of that sort but I'm just trying to be as honest as I can.. I get sort of emotionally involved with everyone I meet, and I always end up putting others before myself. It's just who I am and I don't think that'll ever really change.

 

I agree that it doesn't specifically apply to you - that's why my first sentence read:

 

My post is not specifically a response to you.

 

Beyond that, I don't really have a ton of advice for you. I'm pretty much the antithesis of a nice guy, but give off the (genuine) vibe that I love who I am, and am fairly adept from switching between zany humor and thought-provoking discussion.

 

Obviously, if that's not who you are, you can't be that way. But, figure out what you like about yourself and display it modestly. I don't know, do emotionally evolved junk like volunteering with blind kids. Women eat that crap up, as long as it doesn't somehow translate into you being weak.

[Dynamo]

Well you sound like a catch Are you comfortable in your skin? Are you secure? Can you present yourself well to women? These things often get lumped in with "too nice"

 

I wasn't trying to say that you're some sort of reject, I don't think you are. It's just that often being too nice isn't the core reason for romantic difficulty.

 

Don't worry about it Allina, I took no offense to your post. Infact I believe you made some very valid points, and it's never a bad thing to hear from other's life experiences so thanks!

I think I am comfortable in my skin now. If you had asked me that four years ago I would have said no way, but I've done a lot of "self-searching" the past couple years and have really found who I am, as a person. I still am trying to better myself, specifically in the relationship-department, but I've made a lot of progress over the past couple years with myself and I'm really proud. I've transformed from a slightly-overweight, anti-social introvert with little friends into an extremely athletic, outgoing extrovert with more friends then I can shake a stick at. So yes, I have good self-confidence and such.

 

Scratch, I do do some volunteer work. I went to New Orleans and helped clean up and build many homes after the hurricanes. Now back home I work in a soup kitchen for a couple hours every night. I really enjoy doing it, and if I had more free time I'd do more volunteer work, but unfortunately that's difficult for a student like myself to come by. Still, thank you for the advice. It is much appreciated!

[Dynamo]

Also, I just want to say that I hope I'm not coming off as someone who thinks they are perfect - no one is perfect and I'm certainly no exception. I have my own plethora of problems that I need to work through. I'm just trying to lay out as much info an an objective manner as I can so you guys can do your magic. I acknowledge I have flaws, just as everyone does. The trick is finding which one of those flaws (or I suppose they should be called quirks, because they are what make us unique!) seems to be giving me lots of friends but little relationships.

[Pedigree]

The trick is finding which ones will possibly grow on me and which ones I just am not compatible with

 

Then there's also the matter of luck. Which is them not finding a BF by the time you realize that you have feelings for the girl. That's the case with the girl I'm trying to get over.

[Dynamo]

Then there's also the matter of luck. Which is them not finding a BF by the time you realize that you have feelings for the girl. That's the case with the girl I'm trying to get over.

 

Gah I know exactly what you mean man, I'm in the same boat. I'm still not over her, but I've come to the realization that I can't just sit around and wait for her to finish with that relationship.. So I'm pursuing other potential relationships, but I've still got my eye on a certain girl.

 

Good luck man, I'm sure you'll get over her (or, if luck is with you, get with her!) eventually.

[scratch]

Scratch, I do do some volunteer work. I went to New Orleans and helped clean up and build many homes after the hurricanes. Now back home I work in a soup kitchen for a couple hours every night. I really enjoy doing it, and if I had more free time I'd do more volunteer work, but unfortunately that's difficult for a student like myself to come by. Still, thank you for the advice. It is much appreciated!

 

Christ, you really are a nice guy. You missed the overarching point of my advice, though.

 

Figure out what you like about yourself and display it modestly.

 

As far as I can tell, this is the key factor in attracting women. If you're extremely athletic, play that up. Go places where it's appropriate to walk around shirtless. If you do well in school that will be valued (unless you're in high school) by some women.

 

But, there's a trick to it - the reason you're attractive isn't because you're smart or athletic. The reason you're attractive is because you feel good about yourself, so place yourself in situations where that is the case.

 

Nice isn't valued, positively or negatively. Why? You don't feel necessarily feel good about yourself when you're being nice. Just take it out of the equation, and work on confidence.

[CD111]

dynamo, sometimes it takes girls a few years and bad relationships to learn to appreciate the decent guys. At least for me, when I first started dating I didn't pick the best guys. Actually one in particular was a real jerk. Just give it some time.

[Dynamo]

Christ, you really are a nice guy. You missed the overarching point of my advice, though.

 

 

 

As far as I can tell, this is the key factor in attracting women. If you're extremely athletic, play that up. Go places where it's appropriate to walk around shirtless. If you do well in school that will be valued (unless you're in high school) by some women.

 

But, there's a trick to it - the reason you're attractive isn't because you're smart or athletic. The reason you're attractive is because you feel good about yourself, so place yourself in situations where that is the case.

 

Nice isn't valued, positively or negatively. Why? You don't feel necessarily feel good about yourself when you're being nice. Just take it out of the equation, and work on confidence.

 

Thanks, I like to do what I can (although I made a typo, I don't work in the soup kitchen every night, I meant to say every Wednesday night... My mistake )

 

As for the rest of your post, I think thats excellent advice.. Yes, thats gotten me thinking.. Maybe thats what I needed to hear... Hmm. Thank you

[Pedigree]

So I'm pursuing other potential relationships, but I've still got my eye on a certain girl.

 

Exactly. I'm doing the same thing. As I put it, keeping up with the direction in the wind so you'll be ready when it starts blowing in your direction.

 

Anyways, there's a lot of good advice in this thread and I'm definitely taking mental notes.

[Dynamo]

dynamo, sometimes it takes girls a few years and bad relationships to learn to appreciate the decent guys. At least for me, when I first started dating I didn't pick the best guys. Actually one in particular was a real jerk. Just give it some time.

 

Hi CD111,

Oh, I know exactly what you mean, and I honestly can't blame them. I suppose a "bad-boy" seems exciting and adventurous, as opposed to a average-joe nice guy.. Who can blame them for wanting a little adventure in their lives? I just don't see why they continue to return to them, over and over, yet I'm always the guy they come to to help them get back on their feet.. It feels as if it's emotionally scarring for me more then them, because it just makes me feel closer and closer to them and then POOF, they run off to the guy who just got out of prison.

 

Maybe I just need to step back from the relationship side of my life for a bit and think things out, give it some rest.

[GuidanceDMS]

I feel you man, I feel you.

 

I am a nice guy as well and treat girls like you and I have the same crap happening to me. When the girls come back and tell me that their new bf is a jerk...I just tell them they should have given the nice guy a shot. Then they go right out and find another jerk...when I am still interested (if I am single)

 

I just made a thread and it is similar to yours...we are in the same boat.

[Sand&Water]

RE:

 

This is an unusually interesting thread, Dynamo.

 

Rather, I find the original post humorous. I'm laughing, not at you -but with you -because this problem you are encountering seems to have just recently become a nationwide epidemic.

 

This problem has only arisen in the last couple of years. Strange. Why hasn't this problem existed in the last 50 years. This is why I say it is unusual.

 

"Ugly" men complain that they are having a difficult time dating women. "Good Looking" men, also, complain that they are having a difficult time dating the same women.

 

So. Both "Ugly" and "Good looking" men can't be right.

 

Does that mean the "Average Looking" men have the most success!

 

I will tell you one thing, Dynamo. BE Thankful. You are better off than thousands of other men.

 

You are using your "Good Looks" as a weapon against you. That is wrong -and bad. Use it to your advantage. You are doubting too many personal traits, that it leaves little hope for a woman to confide in you.

 

Imagination is an important key to dating. Believe it or not.

 

Be Patient. Someone will come to your door -BUT you have to make the necessary preparations beforehand. Confidence (one of many).

 

Sand&Water

[CD111]

Hi CD111,

Oh, I know exactly what you mean, and I honestly can't blame them. I suppose a "bad-boy" seems exciting and adventurous, as opposed to a average-joe nice guy.. Who can blame them for wanting a little adventure in their lives? I just don't see why they continue to return to them, over and over, yet I'm always the guy they come to to help them get back on their feet.. It feels as if it's emotionally scarring for me more then them, because it just makes me feel closer and closer to them and then POOF, they run off to the guy who just got out of prison.

 

Maybe I just need to step back from the relationship side of my life for a bit and think things out, give it some rest.

 

It's because the girls haven't figured it out yet (basically haven't been screwed over enough yet). It took me 2.5 yrs in a ****ty relationship to finally kick the guy to the curb. Those girls are emotionally and temporally vested to those "bad-boy" guys. So they look at the situation for what it really is, a ****ty relationship. Take the advice many have given, be confident, emphasize your good qualities and don't stress about this too much. A great girl will come along. Be there for your girl friends when they need someone to talk to; however, if you like a girl... really like a girl. Don't let her view you too much as just a "nice guy" she can devulge all her problems to, because at that point you start to fall into "friend" territory instead of a potential significant other.

[GoodOnPaper]

This problem has only arisen in the last couple of years. Strange. Why hasn't this problem existed in the last 50 years.

 

I disagree. I've had "nice guy" issues since the early '80s. Convinced that I was too ugly and nerdy to attract women like most guys seemed to be able to do, I would do almost anything and be as "nice" as I could to gain women's approval. I was desperate. When someone with a legitimate interest in a long-term relationship came along, I married her -- not because I was in love, but because I thought that's the best it was going to get. Now, 16 years and two kids later, I'm in therapy trying to figure out where I buried my authentic self.

 

"Nice guys" are feminized in many ways. They are emotionally reactive and take way too many things personally -- this stems from excessive approval seeking. They don't decide what they want in life and go after it -- regardless of the risks, regardless of female companionship (or lack of).

 

Dynamo, a number of women advocate that guys wait around until women outgrow their "bad boy phase". Don't fall for this. You have just as much of a right to experiment as they (women) do. After you've figured out what you want in life, decide what you want in women and relationships, set your standards, live up to them, and expect your women of interest to live up to them as well. Your right to choose is just as important as the woman's! Women think of their bad boy phase as practice. Don't be afraid to practice yourself! Just maybe, you will be too busy when you run into some of these women after their dating market value has fallen below bad-boy standards.

[Keara]

GoodonPaper: Excellent post.

 

The most unattractive quality I've found in a man is the victim attitude of being "a nice guy". And the attitude seems to come out in all aspects of their lives, not just pertaining to women. Its a lack of confidence in themselves, something just below the surface that comes out in non-verbal clues.

 

I have a friend who's been Mr. Nice guy his entire life. He is a great guy. But when he asked me out I turned him down. He seems to try so hard to please others that he doesn't stand up for himself. He gets used, taken for granted, and dismissed in subtle ways by both men and women. It grates on my nerves to no end, and its everything I can do to not jump up and kick the friends butts for doint that to him, and then I want to kick him for not figuring out he doesn't need their approval for jack shyt.

 

I've met a lot of men who are like this to some degree or another. Few years ago I went on a couple dates with a guy. There were a lot of things I really enjoyed about him, but every time we went out on a date he'd set aside whatever he had wanted in order to do whatever I wanted. Which was sweet. But I really wanted a man who has his own opinion, who isn't afraid to speak up about it, who realized his needs are just as important, and who will then work on comprimises so we'll both get what we want... not just do whatever I want.

 

So be confident in yourself and what you like or don't like. If you're not sure about those things yet, then tackle some projects that are going to stretch you to succed in ways you didn't think possible. Try things you didn't think you could do (sports, work, school). Then when something comes up in your life that makes you feel insecure, look back at those accomplishments that you didn't think you were capable of, and feel proud of yourself. It'll shine through in every action you make.

[Leia]

I love to be treated good and I love nice guys. I know how to treat my man... just have to get one. LOL

[lindya]

Why do they always seem to run off to the disrespectful, mean and abusive guys, then come crying back to me to tell me how horrible they were treated? And then, what do you know, they go running right back out there and find another sleezeball. Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

Don't forget that people have different takes on what constitutes "abusive" behaviour. I doubt there's anyone posting on this board who has never behaved in a way that someone else regarded as abusive.

 

Some people might be regarded as abusive because they told the truth, as they saw it, and badly dented another person's confidence as a result. Others may have lied to a partner (not wanting to hurt them/being afraid of confrontation) and left that person with some major trust issues. People's values constantly clash when it comes to the matter of what constitutes abuse/niceness/nastiness/supportiveness.

 

I've done that "crying on a male friend's shoulder" thing more than once....and from my perspective they seemed to quite actively enjoy adopting a brotherly, protective role. Similarly, there are times a friend has come running to me for a bit of support and sympathy when they needed it, and I've given it. Partly because it's an instinctive response, and also because I usually enjoy discussing and analysing that sort of stuff.

 

If you don't like that role, and if it makes you feel in some way used, a-sexual and unappreciated, then don't take the role up. Just say "sorry, I'm not the best person in these situations. I think it's the kind of thing you'd be better talking to your female buddies about." If you've got a strong interest in your female friend and are hoping to turn her into a lover, then it probably isn't a great idea to encourage her to cry on your shoulder about other men....but if you let her, then she almost certainly will.

 

Most men are going to sound like jerks when a woman's crying over them. Meantime, the subject of it all might be busy ranting to a female friend about how he was 100% honest with her about, she couldn't handle it...and how she's now gone running off to cry on the shoulder of someone who'll tell her whatever she wants to hear if it gets her into the sack. You feel you're the honest, nice guy. The sleazeball probably sees himself in much the same light ..and would maybe present all kinds of rationalisations for treating your female friend the way he did.

 

Edit having read more of the thread - and seeing your comments about the work you did in the aftermath of Katrina...yes, you do sound like a genuinely good guy and I can't see why any women would be turned off rather than on by those aspects of you. I suspect the problem might be that you disguise your sexual intentions a bit. Maybe because you personally dislike guys who strike you as being players, are anxious not to be that type yourself and are therefore overcompensating a bit with the romantic elements, forgetting that women enjoy sex too.

[lino]

Are you unable to start any sort of romantic relationship with a woman because you're too nice? Or are you unable to stay in a serious relationship because you're considered too nice?

 

If it's the former I can give you some advice which I think is useful, if the latter then not so much as that's where I'm still working at.

 

If you keep getting used as a friend then you have to stop being one. Stop showing concern for any problems these particular girls have, let them deal with it themselves or have some other poor bloke help them with it. Only do that with a girl you strictly want to be ONLY friends with.

 

I was a nice guy until I was dumped by my last ex in june who didn't show a shred of appreciation for me. No more now

 

Women can tell you what they want, but not what they NEED - Consider this quote, I think I read it either on these boards or on the net somewhere else & it really changed my view on this matter.

[Dynamo]

Wow, I go to bed at night and get a whole wealth of fresh replies. Thanks everyone!

 

Edit having read more of the thread - and seeing your comments about the work you did in the aftermath of Katrina...yes, you do sound like a genuinely good guy and I can't see why any women would be turned off rather than on by those aspects of you. I suspect the problem might be that you disguise your sexual intentions a bit. Maybe because you personally dislike guys who strike you as being players, are anxious not to be that type yourself and are therefore overcompensating a bit with the romantic elements, forgetting that women enjoy sex too.

 

Great post lindya, specifically the last bit - I suspect that may be my problem..I REALLY don't want to turn out like a guy who's a player who just uses women for pleasure and then throws them out like last week's meal. I've consciously told myself to not become like those guys. Perhaps I've been trying too hard? I don't know, it's certainly a possibility.

 

GoodOnPaper: Thanks! I wish you luck with your therapy. I know from experience that it can really help, no matter what your issue is. As for your post, I like to believe that I am experimenting a bit with what I want in life. I've been 'getting out there' more and just trying a lot of different things (for example, I'm going to join a white water rafting club in the summer, something that I never thought I'd want to do). I've changed my major a couple different times until I've found something I really enjoy. Pretty much every facet of my life is doing better then it ever has, except relationships.

 

Keara: I know what you mean, I'm certainly guilty of it on occasion. Like I said before I tend to always put others before myself, it's just a trait I've always had. I just don't know how I can break it.. If I think of doing whats best for myself then I feel as if I'm being selfish and uncaring to others, and I can't stand that.

 

Lino: That seems to be the general consensus I hear concerning the "nice guy" issue. It just seems really cold when someone comes to you in tears, obviously very distraught, and you just shove them away with a "Not my problem.". I just don't want to be that uncaring, insensitive guy. Maybe it goes back to my childhood; I had no one I could really turn to when I was upset and it made me feel miserable. I don't know - perhaps I'm putting too much blame on my past and not enough focus on the present.

It just seems really cold to me, thats all.

 

 

Again thank you everyone for the responses- it's a little overwhelming but I really do appreciate them. I'm hoping I can work through this without having to pay for therapy sessions, LOL!

 

 

EDIT: I think this thread ( http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t136309/ ) I made a couple weeks back is pretty relevant to this thread.. It's the type of stuff I'm talking about when I say that they always come back to me for help/support..

[Blue Eyed Brain]

Its not that we are programmed to go after guys that treat us bad, its that we find a guy and he puts his all into us. Then after HE thinks he has us, and he probably does, he backs off, slows down the communication and even stops the communication. At that point, we are wondering what happened and why? But, I don't think we get the real story. So, we give the guy another chance and he screws up. (At this point, most women should walk away, but many do not).

 

So, you see, we can't diseminate the good ones from the Im'-only-good-for-as-long-as-I-can-be ones. The wannabe good ones that play with our heads have us wrapped up in them and we don't see you or see you as any different. We get spooked and now you have a mass of disfunctional people too scared to commit to a relationship.

 

It's really just about playing games. Guys and girls do it. It's wrong, but it's played.

[tanbark813]

One thing that would be helpful is if you posted an example of the latest girl who friendzoned you.

 

How did you meet her?

How did you get to know her?

What did you guys do together (activities, dates, etc...)?

When/how did you make a move?

 

My guess is that you meet a girl, do a number of favors for her to demonstrate how nice and respectful you are, and never make a move on her because you want to be respectful.

 

One key problem that "nice guys" have is that they suppress their sexuality because they want to be nice and respectful. "Bad boys" don't do this and don't make excuses for who they are or how they behave. That's not to say that you should be pawing your dates and act sleazy, but don't cut off your male sexuality out of fear of it, or fear of coming across as disrespectful. Like Vince Vaughn says in Swingers:

 

"There's nothing wrong with letting girls know that you're money and that you want to party."

 

And as other posters have said, work on your confidence.

[allina]

One thing that would be helpful is if you posted an example of the latest girl who friendzoned you.

 

How did you meet her?

How did you get to know her?

What did you guys do together (activities, dates, etc...)?

When/how did you make a move?

 

My guess is that you meet a girl, do a number of favors for her to demonstrate how nice and respectful you are, and never make a move on her because you want to be respectful.

 

One key problem that "nice guys" have is that they suppress their sexuality because they want to be nice and respectful. "Bad boys" don't do this and don't make excuses for who they are or how they behave. That's not to say that you should be pawing your dates and act sleazy, but don't cut off your male sexuality out of fear of it, or fear of coming across as disrespectful. Like Vince Vaughn says in Swingers:

 

"There's nothing wrong with letting girls know that you're money and that you want to party."

 

And as other posters have said, work on your confidence.

 

This is pretty good advice but can a timid "nice guy" suddenly make himself aggressive? You're forward and aggressive with women (not in a bad violent way ) but is that natural or something a "nice guy" can make himself do?

[tanbark813]

This is pretty good advice but can a timid "nice guy" suddenly make himself aggressive? You're forward and aggressive with women (not in a bad violent way ) but is that natural or something a "nice guy" can make himself do?

 

at bolded part.

 

It most likely won't happen suddenly, but I would say that certainly over time it's possible. I was a total "nice guy" in high school and probably most of college.

[allina]

at bolded part.

 

It most likely won't happen suddenly, but I would say that certainly over time it's possible. I was a total "nice guy" in high school and probably most of college.

 

Well you know what I mean

[bish]

I just don't get it. I know I'm not getting hit with the "just friends" hammer as a cover up for my looks, because I know I'm decently attractive- I've had several different girls (seriously) tell me I'm hot, and if they weren't taken they'd so "get with me". So it's not just a cover up. What is it, then? No, I am not a clingy person. I'm an introvert who acts like an extrovert, so I am perfectly content being by myself for long stretches of time and giving her space.

 

All the girls I'm interested in always just end up being "good friends" and I'm sick and tired of it.

 

Well here is where the funny part comes in...they go for the bad boys who are so full of themselves....they don't even care about their narcissism...they want the "looks" and the bad boy attitude.

 

THEN, when the bad boy treats them like crap (what a shocker!)...they all of a sudden become as$$holes and the girls who date them go on rants about why they can't find a good guy. I think its funny as hell.