OW anger vs MM anger

[cj1988]

WF, thank you for the response. I have read a lot of your responses to others and you are really good with the advice you seem to give. Unfortunately it was not a cousin but his 1/2 sister he just met.....if it were a cousin he probably would have married her instead of me....you can marry your first cousin in this state.

 

You are correct....stubborn people are the most hateful, depressed humans I have ever met and seem to like it or they would change. He is so cold to me and so distant and it has been a year since my accusation. We have been through hell, mostly me and I still hang on hoping the old H will show up again ! I am tired and search so hard everyday here while I am work ( that tells you how confused I am) for an answer. Of course he denies it all( he has to, I would) and says I am crazy etc......but if you read my thread (the taped conversation that haunts me) you will see it was definitely an EA and he has not been the same since. I believe it started 8-06 and I ended it 12-1-06 almost a year ago.....he does not call her anymore and she rarely calls him, but she will always be around, it is his sister (same dad) so you see I am in a BAD situation and do not know how to leave !

[Fisherman]

Ah well, you women don't understand. Most men only have enough blood in their bloodstream to operate one head at a time, so we CAN be seduced if we aren't careful.

 

Well, reboot, I never said I was seduced, I said I was manipulated. Quite different. I've read your story and it sounds to me like your wife experienced pretty much the same thing.

 

I was asked why it happened. I answered. The fact that people here don't like my answer or want to make fun of me or make accusations towards me because of it I find somewhat amusing. People who believe they are immune to manipulation when in a vulnerable situation will be the same ones who are most likely to suffer it.

 

Enjoy your lives, folks. I hope each of you learns the lessons life has to offer in a less painful way than I did.

[cj1988]

Fisherman, I belive you....that is what I think happened to H as well. When you are down and out and someone is ON your side or seems to be it is so easy to fall that way !

 

You are man enough to admit it and take action, unlike others and that is what you should feel good about at this point. Good luck !

[reboot]

Well, reboot, I never said I was seduced, I said I was manipulated. Quite different. I've read your story and it sounds to me like your wife experienced pretty much the same thing.

 

I was asked why it happened. I answered. The fact that people here don't like my answer or want to make fun of me or make accusations towards me because of it I find somewhat amusing. People who believe they are immune to manipulation when in a vulnerable situation will be the same ones who are most likely to suffer it.

 

Enjoy your lives, folks. I hope each of you learns the lessons life has to offer in a less painful way than I did.

I certainly wasn't trying to make fun of you. I was just interjecting a little humor. It's all that gets me though the day sometimes, but I do need to be more careful. Sometimes things just aren't funny to the people involved. I'm sorry if you took it personally. I do wish you well on your journey through life.

[Fisherman]

Oh I agree. I said that tongue-in-cheek really. I've been 'seduced' a few times in my life, but was I actually 'manipulated'? pffftt.... I was 'full growed' and knew what was about to happen.

 

Manipulation of the type I experienced (and probably the type your wife experienced) isn't a little thing. It's months and even years in the making. It's a concerted effort that is exericised towards changing another persons perception of life, desires, beliefs, etc. It is not a small matter nor is it done without knowledge and responsibility.

 

Please note the fact that I've never said what I did wasn't my fault. What I did, I did. There were many steps along the way that I should have realized what was happening and should have stopped it from going further. Unfortunately, I didn't stop it until one step before the final one.

 

And no, it's not humorous in the slightest. Ask yourself how funny you think your situation is.

[White Flower]

Well, reboot, I never said I was seduced, I said I was manipulated. Quite different. I've read your story and it sounds to me like your wife experienced pretty much the same thing.

 

I was asked why it happened. I answered. The fact that people here don't like my answer or want to make fun of me or make accusations towards me because of it I find somewhat amusing. People who believe they are immune to manipulation when in a vulnerable situation will be the same ones who are most likely to suffer it.

 

Enjoy your lives, folks. I hope each of you learns the lessons life has to offer in a less painful way than I did.

So very, very true. I think that is why I bother so much to speak to the BS often. Their anger proves their lack of understanding. Eventually they will understand one way or another. We always hope it is not the way we found out.

[White Flower]

WF, thank you for the response. I have read a lot of your responses to others and you are really good with the advice you seem to give. Unfortunately it was not a cousin but his 1/2 sister he just met.....if it were a cousin he probably would have married her instead of me....you can marry your first cousin in this state.

 

You are correct....stubborn people are the most hateful, depressed humans I have ever met and seem to like it or they would change. He is so cold to me and so distant and it has been a year since my accusation. We have been through hell, mostly me and I still hang on hoping the old H will show up again ! I am tired and search so hard everyday here while I am work ( that tells you how confused I am) for an answer. Of course he denies it all( he has to, I would) and says I am crazy etc......but if you read my thread (the taped conversation that haunts me) you will see it was definitely an EA and he has not been the same since. I believe it started 8-06 and I ended it 12-1-06 almost a year ago.....he does not call her anymore and she rarely calls him, but she will always be around, it is his sister (same dad) so you see I am in a BAD situation and do not know how to leave !

I did read it and that is why I really feel for you. It would have driven me nuts and I don't know how you do it. Good luck, darlin'.

[head.heart& hand]

 

 

Ohhh!!-- I bet you’re referring to the psychologist John Gottman. I didn’t see the 20/20 segment but I read a ton, especially non –fiction and this rings a bell. Gottman uncovered something really, really incredible that I think is particularly relevant to LS posters. He set up a “love lab” where he analyzed 100’s of married couples interactions in rather ordinary conversations. He then created a coding system to collect data on their interactions. A weighted number was assigned to various interactions; contempt, defensiveness, stonewalling, etc… Here’ the remarkable thing---, In analyzing H&W’s for an hour, he was able to analyze their interactions (mathmataically) and predict with 95% accuracy whether or not they would still be married in 15 years. Isn’t that incredible!!! And yes, as you were saying, he concluded that the most destructive communicative display in a relationship is CONTEMPT.

 

I learned about this a few years ago in reading the book BLINK, by Malcom Gladwell, ---I can't even begin to tell you how fascinating this book is. Go grab a copy if you're interested in reading up on this further, its likely you wont be able to put it down (a best seller).

[Virgo1982]

Ohhh!!-- I bet you’re referring to the psychologist John Gottman. I didn’t see the 20/20 segment but I read a ton, especially non –fiction and this rings a bell. Gottman uncovered something really, really incredible that I think is particularly relevant to LS posters. He set up a “love lab” where he analyzed 100’s of married couples interactions in rather ordinary conversations. He then created a coding system to collect data on their interactions. A weighted number was assigned to various interactions; contempt, defensiveness, stonewalling, etc… Here’ the remarkable thing---, In analyzing H&W’s for an hour, he was able to analyze their interactions (mathmataically) and predict with 95% accuracy whether or not they would still be married in 15 years. Isn’t that incredible!!! And yes, as you were saying, he concluded that the most destructive communicative display in a relationship is CONTEMPT.

 

I learned about this a few years ago in reading the book BLINK, by Malcom Gladwell, ---I can't even begin to tell you how fascinating this book is. Go grab a copy if you're interested in reading up on this further, its likely you wont be able to put it down (a best seller).

 

That is remarkable and it makes sense. With contempt in the way, there is no room for respect or compromise. I'll have to do find material from both of these gentlemen.

[White Flower]

Originally posted by Head.Hand&Heart>

Ohhh!!-- I bet you’re referring to the psychologist John Gottman. I didn’t see the 20/20 segment but I read a ton, especially non –fiction and this rings a bell. Gottman uncovered something really, really incredible that I think is particularly relevant to LS posters. He set up a “love lab” where he analyzed 100’s of married couples interactions in rather ordinary conversations. He then created a coding system to collect data on their interactions. A weighted number was assigned to various interactions; contempt, defensiveness, stonewalling, etc… Here’ the remarkable thing---, In analyzing H&W’s for an hour, he was able to analyze their interactions (mathmataically) and predict with 95% accuracy whether or not they would still be married in 15 years. Isn’t that incredible!!! And yes, as you were saying, he concluded that the most destructive communicative display in a relationship is CONTEMPT.

 

I learned about this a few years ago in reading the book BLINK, by Malcom Gladwell, ---I can't even begin to tell you how fascinating this book is. Go grab a copy if you're interested in reading up on this further, its likely you wont be able to put it down (a best seller).

 

Thanks a bunch for that! I will go out and buy that when I go Christmas shopping tomorrow! A little gift for myself....do you think I should give it to my H? Lol.

[Virgo1982]

Originally posted by Head.Hand&Heart>

Ohhh!!-- I bet you’re referring to the psychologist John Gottman. I didn’t see the 20/20 segment but I read a ton, especially non –fiction and this rings a bell. Gottman uncovered something really, really incredible that I think is particularly relevant to LS posters. He set up a “love lab” where he analyzed 100’s of married couples interactions in rather ordinary conversations. He then created a coding system to collect data on their interactions. A weighted number was assigned to various interactions; contempt, defensiveness, stonewalling, etc… Here’ the remarkable thing---, In analyzing H&W’s for an hour, he was able to analyze their interactions (mathmataically) and predict with 95% accuracy whether or not they would still be married in 15 years. Isn’t that incredible!!! And yes, as you were saying, he concluded that the most destructive communicative display in a relationship is CONTEMPT.

 

I learned about this a few years ago in reading the book BLINK, by Malcom Gladwell, ---I can't even begin to tell you how fascinating this book is. Go grab a copy if you're interested in reading up on this further, its likely you wont be able to put it down (a best seller).

 

Thanks a bunch for that! I will go out and buy that when I go Christmas shopping tomorrow! A little gift for myself....do you think I should give it to my H? Lol.

 

Why, do you have a table with a broken leg or something?

[Cobra_X30]

Manipulation of the type I experienced (and probably the type your wife experienced) isn't a little thing. It's months and even years in the making. It's a concerted effort that is exericised towards changing another persons perception of life, desires, beliefs, etc. It is not a small matter nor is it done without knowledge and responsibility.

 

Please note the fact that I've never said what I did wasn't my fault. What I did, I did. There were many steps along the way that I should have realized what was happening and should have stopped it from going further. Unfortunately, I didn't stop it until one step before the final one.

 

And no, it's not humorous in the slightest. Ask yourself how funny you think your situation is.

 

Fisher,

 

The trick is to know when your bieng manipulated! Especially when I am at my most vulnerable I am accutely aware of the motivations of others.

 

I believe it to be highly unlikely that you were "manipulated" without your desire or consent. What occurred, happened because you wanted and allowed it to happen.

 

You have admitted to some critical errors in judgement. I am very glad that things are on the mend for you!

[silktricks]

FM, have you ever been a member of a cult, or some other highly organized restrictive society? I ask because I have known people who were involved in those types of situations before who forever afterward were highly susceptible to manipulation.

[smartgirl]

Manipulation of the type I experienced (and probably the type your wife experienced) isn't a little thing. It's months and even years in the making. It's a concerted effort that is exericised towards changing another persons perception of life, desires, beliefs, etc. It is not a small matter nor is it done without knowledge and responsibility.

 

Please note the fact that I've never said what I did wasn't my fault. What I did, I did. There were many steps along the way that I should have realized what was happening and should have stopped it from going further. Unfortunately, I didn't stop it until one step before the final one.

 

And no, it's not humorous in the slightest. Ask yourself how funny you think your situation is.

 

Fisherman, I do know what you are talking about. Subtle manipulation is very different than seduction, though both can be going on at the same time. Perhaps a better way to describe it to people who have not experienced it is "influence." One person can have an undue influence on another's thoughts or point of view. Many of us have had a friend or family member who for a period of time had that kind of undue influence over our thinking and decision making. A kind of influence that that made us think things or do things that later made us cringe.

 

My H says that he felt at times that there was an attempt by OW to manipulate him, but steadfastly maintains that he was not manipulated, because he he took the actions and made the decisions. But what he is only just now seeing after a couple of years is that her "opinions" of what things meant and how things ought to be did cause him to have doubts about his own beliefs and to wonder if she was right. In addition, she would keep things moving forward in the A and the threat of it all ending was there like a hammer if he didn't move to her point of view on it. I think that is manipulation, even if it is done in a way that seems "loving" at the time.

[annabelle75]

Fisherman, I do know what you are talking about. Subtle manipulation is very different than seduction, though both can be going on at the same time. Perhaps a better way to describe it to people who have not experienced it is "influence." One person can have an undue influence on another's thoughts or point of view. Many of us have had a friend or family member who for a period of time had that kind of undue influence over our thinking and decision making. A kind of influence that that made us think things or do things that later made us cringe.

 

My H says that he felt at times that there was an attempt by OW to manipulate him, but steadfastly maintains that he was not manipulated, because he he took the actions and made the decisions. But what he is only just now seeing after a couple of years is that her "opinions" of what things meant and how things ought to be did cause him to have doubts about his own beliefs and to wonder if she was right. In addition, she would keep things moving forward in the A and the threat of it all ending was there like a hammer if he didn't move to her point of view on it. I think that is manipulation, even if it is done in a way that seems "loving" at the time.

 

hee hee ... sorry but that sounds like alot of marriages around here to me. but then again i guess if you are married it is ok, if you are an OM/OW you are evil.

 

if you guys really want to solve the mystery and "figure out" the OM/OW all you have to do is look in a mirror. they are really not very different from you and me. they are real people with hopes, dreams and passion. sometimes they end up in relationships they regret or others don't approve of. they aren't evil manipulative villians. accept maybe Lizzie.

[OpenBook]

hee hee ... sorry but that sounds like alot of marriages around here to me. but then again i guess if you are married it is ok, if you are an OM/OW you are evil.

 

Annabelle I couldn't agree with you more. Because it is sanctioned by "society" (whatever the f*ck THAT is), marriage gives people certain inalienable rights that other not-so-lucky (i.e., single) people simply do not enjoy - like torturing another human being.

[annabelle75]

Annabelle I couldn't agree with you more. Because it is sanctioned by "society" (whatever the f*ck THAT is), marriage gives people certain inalienable rights that other not-so-lucky (i.e., single) people simply do not enjoy - like torturing another human being.

 

I just get really around here of having the BS come in and associate all these terrible character and personality traits to OW. Then you go over and read their stories and they are filled with them throwing tantrums, threatening to take their husband's kids and money and even a few threats or attempts at suicide (sounds a bit manipulative to me....hmmmm). Meanwhile they call the OW crazy, desperate and pathetic. Can't we all just accept we are people with the same struggles and weaknesses?

[Virgo1982]

I just get really around here of having the BS come in and associate all these terrible character and personality traits to OW. Then you go over and read their stories and they are filled with them throwing tantrums, threatening to take their husband's kids and money and even a few threats or attempts at suicide (sounds a bit manipulative to me....hmmmm). Meanwhile they call the OW crazy, desperate and pathetic. Can't we all just accept we are people with the same struggles and weaknesses?

 

After seeing two perfectly valid threads shut down today, I have to say the answer is no.

[Leia]

I followed those threads and learned a few things from it. I wonder if there is a next one. I was an OW, not knowing from the beginning but stopped it when I found out.... so it helped to see what others were going through and also betrayed spouses side of the story.... I think OW can learn a lot from betrayed spouse and them from the OW... although I don't think most OW here like what they are being told. Even if they do, they wouldn't want to admit it.

[smartgirl]

Annabelle and OpenBook - my response to Fisherman was not specific to all OW and I think that is pretty clear if you will take the trouble to actually read my post without the filter of your own biases.

 

I said that most of us have been the recipient of manipulation although we did not realize it at the time - by all manner of people. I think that is all Fisherman has been trying to say -- that one specific person was applying manipulative behavior towards him and that he did not realize it until later. I cited a specific example of my H's OW because it related to Fisherman's situation. I DID NOT say that all OW are manipulative.

 

Where on Earth do you get from my post that I am accusing all OW of being manipulative? And further, you then take my one post about a specific situation and make nasty, generalized remarks about all BS. This would seem to be the very same type of behavior you are condeming in others.

 

I think that it is unfortunate when anyone is manipulated by another, but especially if it takes you into a situation that you might have otherwise avoided. Later you feel both used and foolish.

 

I had a conversation with my teenage daughter just the other day trying to make her aware of the difference between someone advocating a point of view and someone trying to get her to change her behavior for their own purposes -- which a "friend" was trying to do. My daughter's friend was using what I would term "tactics" of reward and punishment to bring my daughter around. So this topic has been on my mind.

 

The idea of manipulation was something that was top of mind for me, but it doesn't seem like Fisherman intended to have the primary take away from his post be that he felt he had been manipulated. I thought that he was making the point that not all MM walk away from the A unscathed and without damage to themselves and their lives. That doesn't seem like rocket science to me, but his post seems to have incited a lot of vitrol.

[GreenEyedLady]

I think that it's not so much that his post incited vitrol, it's just that it's full of cliche's...

 

I'm sure the OW would claim that she was manipulated as well as the W...Everyone wants to play a victim and play the blame game...It's a lot easier than taking responsibility for your actions...

 

Just my thoughts...

[OpenBook]

Annabelle and OpenBook - my response to Fisherman was not specific to all OW and I think that is pretty clear if you will take the trouble to actually read my post without the filter of your own biases.

 

I said that most of us have been the recipient of manipulation although we did not realize it at the time - by all manner of people. I think that is all Fisherman has been trying to say -- that one specific person was applying manipulative behavior towards him and that he did not realize it until later. I cited a specific example of my H's OW because it related to Fisherman's situation. I DID NOT say that all OW are manipulative.

 

Where on Earth do you get from my post that I am accusing all OW of being manipulative? And further, you then take my one post about a specific situation and make nasty, generalized remarks about all BS. This would seem to be the very same type of behavior you are condeming in others.

 

I think that it is unfortunate when anyone is manipulated by another, but especially if it takes you into a situation that you might have otherwise avoided. Later you feel both used and foolish.

 

I had a conversation with my teenage daughter just the other day trying to make her aware of the difference between someone advocating a point of view and someone trying to get her to change her behavior for their own purposes -- which a "friend" was trying to do. My daughter's friend was using what I would term "tactics" of reward and punishment to bring my daughter around. So this topic has been on my mind.

 

The idea of manipulation was something that was top of mind for me, but it doesn't seem like Fisherman intended to have the primary take away from his post be that he felt he had been manipulated. I thought that he was making the point that not all MM walk away from the A unscathed and without damage to themselves and their lives. That doesn't seem like rocket science to me, but his post seems to have incited a lot of vitrol.

 

You're right, Smartgirl, you didn't generalize all OW that way, and I apologize for reading into that.

 

My point was more about the ludicrousness and ultimate hyprocisy for a BS to accuse the OW of being manipulative when they don't think twice about doing it themselves, every day in their M.

 

Your above example with your daughter was one of the hardest lessons for me to learn when I was growing up. Why? Because my parents used EXACTLY the same tactics on me ever since I was born. Why would they be surprised that it would work so well when someone else used the same tactics on me?!? But no-o-o-o-o, that was WRONG.

 

The lesson I learned? Some people have inalienable rights (read, whoever has the power over me at the time) and can do whatever they want - but it's not OK for others to do the same things they do.

 

And they wonder why I was so desperate to get away from them when I graduated.

[Impudent Oyster]

Y

 

My point was more about the ludicrousness and ultimate hyprocisy for a BS to accuse the OW of being manipulative when they don't think twice about doing it themselves, every day in their M.

 

.

 

I'm curious, can you give some examples of how BS manipulate their spouses every day in their marriages?

[White Flower]

I'd kinda like to know the answer to that too. I do think it goes both ways. Because a lying cheating spouse is manipulating the truth also.

Wow, I thought this would be too obvious to answer, but I'll throw in an example.

 

My girlfriend who is married to the most wonderful and giving man in the world continously manipulates him. "Honey, get me a pen to sign this check; Honey, White Flower got a band for her birthday so I want a band." This man loves her and allows her to manipulate him.

 

When she cheated, she said, "He was hard as a rock and could last all night, what do I get from you?" This guy went and stopped smoking, worked out, got some viagra and bought a whole lot of plastic attachments to keep her happy. He thought about divorcing her, but he loves her and wants to keep her happy.

 

Now, that is an extreme example and I'm sure most people on this board can relate on a much subtler degree.

[frannie]

Ohhh!!-- I bet you’re referring to the psychologist John Gottman. I didn’t see the 20/20 segment but I read a ton, especially non –fiction and this rings a bell. Gottman uncovered something really, really incredible that I think is particularly relevant to LS posters. He set up a “love lab” where he analyzed 100’s of married couples interactions in rather ordinary conversations. He then created a coding system to collect data on their interactions. A weighted number was assigned to various interactions; contempt, defensiveness, stonewalling, etc… Here’ the remarkable thing---, In analyzing H&W’s for an hour, he was able to analyze their interactions (mathmataically) and predict with 95% accuracy whether or not they would still be married in 15 years. Isn’t that incredible!!! And yes, as you were saying, he concluded that the most destructive communicative display in a relationship is CONTEMPT.

 

I learned about this a few years ago in reading the book BLINK, by Malcom Gladwell, ---I can't even begin to tell you how fascinating this book is. Go grab a copy if you're interested in reading up on this further, its likely you wont be able to put it down (a best seller).

 

Yes, I've read all about that too. Very, very interesting! Contempt and stonewalling... and so amazing that his team can recognise those emotions and actions in such small pieces of body-language. This research is really worth reading.