OW anger vs MM anger

[frannie]

I think that it's not so much that his post incited vitrol, it's just that it's full of cliche's...

 

I'm sure the OW would claim that she was manipulated as well as the W...Everyone wants to play a victim and play the blame game...It's a lot easier than taking responsibility for your actions...

 

Just my thoughts...

 

I agree, it is a lot easier to claim to have been manipulated, yes. But even if you are lied to and manipulated, the actions are still your own. Taking responsibility for your actions takes back your power, and is a lot healthier way to live.

 

"I was manipulated" sounds far too much like: "he made me do it!"... not accepted in a court of law, and nowhere else once we're out of nappies (that's daipers to most of you)

[smartgirl]

I agree, it is a lot easier to claim to have been manipulated, yes. But even if you are lied to and manipulated, the actions are still your own. Taking responsibility for your actions takes back your power, and is a lot healthier way to live.

 

"I was manipulated" sounds far too much like: "he made me do it!"... not accepted in a court of law, and nowhere else once we're out of nappies (that's daipers to most of you)

 

 

I am not saying that a person doesn't ultimately have responsibility for their actions. That being said, there are people who have a keen ability to read others and then use that information to manipulate people. In some cases, I think they view themselves as being persuasive. But there does come a point when persuasion crosses over to coersion (sorry for the horrid spelling). When that is being done to you by someone that you care for or trust, it stings all the more when you finally realize it.

 

Manipulation is done by all types of people in all types of relationships. Sometimes it is harmless and sometimes it is not. It is not harmless when one person attempts to manipulate another into a situation that serves the manipulator but is potentially harmful in some way to the one being manipulated. I think that is an important distinction and I can't think of any situation where that is acceptable behavior.

 

Open Book - I appreciate the apology. Despite my situation, I really try to stay out of the battles that go along the lines of "all xxx are xxx." If that isn't too vague.

 

I really do believe that despite the similarities in the stories people tell in these threads, there are aspects that make each person and situation unique. We should be able to connect with one another on the aspects of our stories that are similar without it devolving into blanket condemnations. Lord knows there are people on all of the forums who can do little else but make blanket condemnations. I quickly leave those threads and don't look back because it gets too upsetting. There are a few people who have a habit if showing up late into a thread and throwing mud all over an otherwise civil exchange. Thread killers. But I don't expect totally reasonable behavior from people who are hurt and bitter. It isn't easy to cope with the kind of pain that comes out of a love triangle, no matter which partner you are.

[nadiaj2727]

Ohhh!!-- I bet you’re referring to the psychologist John Gottman. I didn’t see the 20/20 segment but I read a ton, especially non –fiction and this rings a bell. Gottman uncovered something really, really incredible that I think is particularly relevant to LS posters. He set up a “love lab” where he analyzed 100’s of married couples interactions in rather ordinary conversations. He then created a coding system to collect data on their interactions. A weighted number was assigned to various interactions; contempt, defensiveness, stonewalling, etc… Here’ the remarkable thing---, In analyzing H&W’s for an hour, he was able to analyze their interactions (mathmataically) and predict with 95% accuracy whether or not they would still be married in 15 years. Isn’t that incredible!!! And yes, as you were saying, he concluded that the most destructive communicative display in a relationship is CONTEMPT.

 

 

HH&H I love that you read so much and I also love reading. I used to read mainly fiction but lately I've read a lot more non-fiction, including relationship books. Have you ever read The Art of Loving by Erich Fromm? This book helped show me what true love is all about, as opposed to the fantasyland infatuation of my affair. Sorry for the threadjack. I wish we could meet up in real life to discuss books!!! A book club lol.

[Impudent Oyster]

Wow, I thought this would be too obvious to answer, but I'll throw in an example.

 

My girlfriend who is married to the most wonderful and giving man in the world continously manipulates him. "Honey, get me a pen to sign this check; Honey, White Flower got a band for her birthday so I want a band." This man loves her and allows her to manipulate him.

 

.

 

That's not manipulation. Asking for a pen is hardly manipiulation, nor is telling your husband what you'd like for your birthday. Far from it.

 

Again, someone please give me an example of how a BS manipulates the WS.

[Impudent Oyster]

When she cheated, she said, "He was hard as a rock and could last all night, what do I get from you?" This guy went and stopped smoking, worked out, got some viagra and bought a whole lot of plastic attachments to keep her happy. He thought about divorcing her, but he loves her and wants to keep her happy.

 

 

That's not manipulation either, it's cruel and stupid, but not manipulative.

 

Manipulation would be "Either you leave your wife or I'll send her copies of all of your emails." Or, "Make sure I get that new job or I'll tell your wife about us".

 

That's manipulative.

[nadiaj2727]

That's not manipulation either, it's cruel and stupid, but not manipulative.

 

Manipulation would be "Either you leave your wife or I'll send her copies of all of your emails." Or, "Make sure I get that new job or I'll tell your wife about us".

 

That's manipulative.

 

In my opinion IO, I think your examples more accurately describe blackmail. I think manipulation is much subtler, so that the person actually being manipulated might not know it until they start to recognize a pattern. (Whereas your examples are very overt & hard to miss). For me, an example of manipulation is withholding sex if you don't get what you want. Or when one person tries to express their feelings, the other person says "Oh my god, how could you say that, that really hurts me, I feel like I was just punched in the stomach" (as a way to make the first person concentrate on the second person's feelings, instead of actually listening to what the first person is really saying.) I think manipulation can be done by spouses, by MM/ OW, by friends, etc. But in my limited experience MM are particularly good at manipulation. After all, they have to have tools to get one woman to do what they want her to do while they stay with another woman. And I see how you mean OW can be manipulative, too, as in recent advice on this forum to stop having sex with OW to get him to leave his wife. (Although this is pretty overt manipulation, whereas I think most manipulation involves mind games/ secret game-playing which one person is not aware of... it's saying one thing but meaning another, or doing something very confusing to keep the other person guessing what's wrong, etc.) To me, manipulation is doing / saying something (or not doing / saying something) in an attempt to get another person to do something they might not otherwise do, without coming right out and saying what you're doing.

[Impudent Oyster]

I agree, withholding sex is an excellent example of manipulation....actually, that's what I thought Openbook was going to hold up as an example until she realized that most people know that the old line about BW's withholding sex is for the most part just that...a line.

 

I also agree that MP are the biggest manipulators of all, I just couldn't understand why Openbook would claim that BS's are manipulative, particularly since 99% of them don't know that they're being betrayed.

[head.heart& hand]

HH&H I love that you read so much and I also love reading. I used to read mainly fiction but lately I've read a lot more non-fiction, including relationship books. Have you ever read The Art of Loving by Erich Fromm? This book helped show me what true love is all about, as opposed to the fantasyland infatuation of my affair. Sorry for the threadjack. I wish we could meet up in real life to discuss books!!! A book club lol.

 

I'm in Nadia! --and all---any other takers on the LS-book club?

 

Looks like we both have an insatiable thirst for knowldege and understanding, so we could probably get a little geeky here ( geekiness, sassiness--and some good wine makes for a great combination). I order from Amazon way too often so what do you think-- is it time for me to introduce myself to the two UPS delivery guys who are constantly at my doorstep with my latest bibliofind "oh, hi, i'm HHH (tee hee), what's yours------. Thanks so much for the quick delivery as I CANT wait to read the book in this package entitled: THE ART OF LOVING! " Dare me--? Now, I suppose that would be flirting, which might be a nice distraction from missing my mm, but then again, not knowing the UPS delivery guys status, I suppose I could be opening another can of married worms --Ewe!

So I'll order it and BE GOOD -- only to silently chuckle during the drop off.

 

Nadia--Once I get a PM account, we'll catch up on that end as if you're anywhere in my geographic area, we'll have to plan to meet up (seeing that the world is flat-- yep, read that one too by Thomas Friedman), you could be half way around the world so we'll see. It will be fun to find out.

 

I apologize if I'm TJing-- but this is open to all and if you see a "thread of connection here"-- such as the need for some good humor and light-heartedness for instance--weave yourself in!

[OpenBook]

is it time for me to introduce myself to the two UPS delivery guys who are constantly at my doorstep with my latest bibliofind "oh, hi, i'm HHH (tee hee), what's yours------. Thanks so much for the quick delivery as I CANT wait to read the book in this package entitled: THE ART OF LOVING! " Dare me--? Now, I suppose that would be flirting, which might be a nice distraction from missing my mm, but then again, not knowing the UPS delivery guys status, I suppose I could be opening another can of married worms --Ewe!

So I'll order it and BE GOOD -- only to silently chuckle during the drop off.

 

May your UPS delivery guy have gorgeous legs and muscular forearms. They usually do. :D:D

[White Flower]

That's not manipulation either, it's cruel and stupid, but not manipulative.

 

Manipulation would be "Either you leave your wife or I'll send her copies of all of your emails." Or, "Make sure I get that new job or I'll tell your wife about us".

 

That's manipulative.

I disagree. She could have said, "If you don't stop smoking, start working out, and buy those plastic attachments I'll go back to f****** the OM". She was just smoother about it. She is really good at manipulation.

 

Microsoft Word's first definition of manipulation: to control or influence somebody or something in an ingenious or devious way.

 

With regard to asking for a pen when she was capable of getting it herself was a form of manipulation. She wanted me to know that she was in charge of him. I don't think she would have bothered him otherwise.

 

She could have asked for a band for her party while not in our presence. She stated it to him in front of us to shame him into it. And she didn't really ask as much as complain. It was like she was dissappointed that he hadn't thought of it himself.

 

MS Word's second def. of manipulation: to change or present something in a way that is false but personally advantageous

[silktricks]

I think that it's not so much that his post incited vitrol, it's just that it's full of cliche's...

 

Just my thoughts...

 

Well, you know why they become cliche's don't you???

[OWoman]

Well, you know why they become cliche's don't you???

 

Same reason anything does - because people lack imagination to try something different.

[silktricks]

I just couldn't understand why Openbook would claim that BS's are manipulative, particularly since 99% of them don't know that they're being betrayed.

 

Being betrayed doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not they manipulate .

 

I think most people manipulate (at some level) at some times, including the BS. Some BS probably manipulate a lot - in fact that may lead toward them being BS .

 

The MM certainly manipulates - at least the BS, and as is seen on these boards, many times the OW as well. Some OW I'm sure manipulate at some times. Some OW undoubtedly manipulate a lot. Certainly some who have been on LS have claimed it and laughed about it.

 

I've often seen on these boards an OW talking about a MM manipulating her. She get's a lot of understanding from other OW and very little from the BS. This is a case IMO of an MM who was apparently manipulated. He is getting very little understanding from OW and some from BS.

 

What I don't understand is the anger that some OW have vented towards the guy. He repeatedly said that he did take responsibility for his actions. That doesn't mitigate IMO that he was manipulated by the OW.

[GreenEyedLady]

Well, you know why they become cliche's don't you???

 

So many cliche's in one post? Cmon...And a new poster?

[Virgo1982]

I disagree. She could have said, "If you don't stop smoking, start working out, and buy those plastic attachments I'll go back to f****** the OM". She was just smoother about it. She is really good at manipulation.

 

Microsoft Word's first definition of manipulation: to control or influence somebody or something in an ingenious or devious way.

 

With regard to asking for a pen when she was capable of getting it herself was a form of manipulation. She wanted me to know that she was in charge of him. I don't think she would have bothered him otherwise.

 

She could have asked for a band for her party while not in our presence. She stated it to him in front of us to shame him into it. And she didn't really ask as much as complain. It was like she was dissappointed that he hadn't thought of it himself.

 

MS Word's second def. of manipulation: to change or present something in a way that is false but personally advantageous

 

WhiteFlower with another home run...

[Virgo1982]

Being betrayed doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not they manipulate .

 

I think most people manipulate (at some level) at some times, including the BS. Some BS probably manipulate a lot - in fact that may lead toward them being BS .

 

The MM certainly manipulates - at least the BS, and as is seen on these boards, many times the OW as well. Some OW I'm sure manipulate at some times. Some OW undoubtedly manipulate a lot. Certainly some who have been on LS have claimed it and laughed about it.

 

I've often seen on these boards an OW talking about a MM manipulating her. She get's a lot of understanding from other OW and very little from the BS. This is a case IMO of an MM who was apparently manipulated. He is getting very little understanding from OW and some from BS.

 

What I don't understand is the anger that some OW have vented towards the guy. He repeatedly said that he did take responsibility for his actions. That doesn't mitigate IMO that he was manipulated by the OW.

 

I think some married individuals may perfect the art of manipulation as a way to avoid compromise. If they need the other spouse to do something-or not do something-good or bad, they might find it easier to manipulate than to convince. However, manipulation can backfire and you can find yourself on the receiving end. After all, you taught him/her how to manipulate. But you never had a clue. You were manipulating that person. They weren't manipulating you...right?

[nadiaj2727]

I'm in Nadia! --and all---any other takers on the LS-book club?

 

Looks like we both have an insatiable thirst for knowldege and understanding, so we could probably get a little geeky here ( geekiness, sassiness--and some good wine makes for a great combination). I order from Amazon way too often so what do you think-- is it time for me to introduce myself to the two UPS delivery guys who are constantly at my doorstep with my latest bibliofind "oh, hi, i'm HHH (tee hee), what's yours------. Thanks so much for the quick delivery as I CANT wait to read the book in this package entitled: THE ART OF LOVING! " Dare me--? Now, I suppose that would be flirting, which might be a nice distraction from missing my mm, but then again, not knowing the UPS delivery guys status, I suppose I could be opening another can of married worms --Ewe!

So I'll order it and BE GOOD -- only to silently chuckle during the drop off.

 

Nadia--Once I get a PM account, we'll catch up on that end as if you're anywhere in my geographic area, we'll have to plan to meet up (seeing that the world is flat-- yep, read that one too by Thomas Friedman), you could be half way around the world so we'll see. It will be fun to find out.

 

I apologize if I'm TJing-- but this is open to all and if you see a "thread of connection here"-- such as the need for some good humor and light-heartedness for instance--weave yourself in!

 

HH&H, I think some healthy flirting/ dating/ other distractions will help you get over your xMM. Just make sure to find out if they're married first lol. I like to travel and I'm definitely down for meeting up someday!!

[White Flower]

WhiteFlower with another home run...

Thank you very much, Virgo!