The OW can actually save a marriage...

[OpenBook]

Married men, for some deep psychological reasons, find independent, strong-minded, and confident women attractive ... I can relate to Lizzie because MMs come onto me all the time ... I have men from all ages wanting to take me out.

 

I'll second that, from my own experience. As a singleton I get hit on WAY more from MM's than from SG's. It's definitely NOT the way I want it, especially at work where you really have to stay "on guard" to keep your reputation intact. But that is the stone-cold reality of it.

[Herzen]

Why? You don't believe in marriage, anyway... Heck, you help marriages, you save them; you are scrupulously careful, and the wife never finds out. And what's your number, 99.9% of men cheat? So these guys are going to do it anyway, might as well be with you right? You would actually be protecting your friends - the wives - by doing it carefully, so these dumb MM don't go out and make a stupid mistake with some other stalker OW...

 

No, it's more simple than that, because that behavior would be wrong (a "no-no") if you did it to a friend, wouldn't it? Yet the same behavior, done to a stranger, is OK? This gets back to my point about being antisocial - an inability to perceive, accept, or apply social clues about what is right and wrong, and an inability to recognize that you have some position and responsibility within the society of strangers around you.

 

 

 

 

No difference to you. But in our society, where there are social boundaries - like those Tomcat points out above - this behavior is wrong independent of whether you "believe" in marriage or not. You are perfectly free to believe that marriage is unworkable, impossible, etc. but you live in a society that puts a sign on it that says "do not touch" and you refuse to respect that. Antisocial. "That sign doesn't apply to me, because I don't believe in it."

 

 

No, actually, according to Lizzie, her MM seem to be good guys in generally good marriages with relatively narrow issues, who get a boost from the little bit on the side, and who go back to their wives rejuvinated (helped, or "saved" as the thread subject would have it.) Her guys are not those sad sacks in dead marriages, looking for a way out that you describe. Actually, she doesn't want those potentially clingy guys from marriages that are coming apart.

 

 

Most people living in a society are able to use various clues to recognize societal standards of behavior. In "ancient society", as Tomcat points out, religion was the primary guideline. These days, most of them are written down as laws, but in all societies, standards and guidelines have been enshrined in rituals, stories, expectations etc. We don't all agree or "believe in" the rules the exact same way, but even so, every culture needs to propogate and communicate the standards that allow us all to adjust our behavior to fall within boundaries that allow our society to function smoothly.

 

Most of us undertstand that stealing is wrong. This is so clear, it is communicated in religious texts, in the laws of most lands, and in stories and lessons we learn from those around us from the time we begin interacting with our world. We get this - it gets communicated. Even if you "don't believe in" corporate profits, it would be absurd to argue that the idea of "FREE WILL" makes it an acceptable behavior within our society to go and help a corporate treasurer embezzle a few hundred thousand from a big billion-dollar corporation, and share the spoils. "Hey, it's not that much, they won't notice, we are super-careful that they won't ever find out, no one is really getting hurt that much at all, and really, it's the treasurer who is betraying the company, not me." Well, actually, most of us living in civilized society could understand that these actions would still be wrong, independent of one's beliefs about corporations, the treasurer bearing primary responsibility, etc.

 

Most of us also find it obvious - whether we believe in marriage as a religious institution, or a civil union, and even among those who believe "it's not for me" - that a marriage is something not to be willingly disturbed - targeted, especially - from the outside. It's a societal standard, irrespective of one's own free will or lack of belief in the institution.

 

So, I continue to believe that Lizzie's behavior is antisocial, and I had originally believed that she herself couldn't see this. But the more she talks, the more she drops hints that she does know it. After all, she would never do this to a friend's relationship. That would be a "NO-NO", or putting it another way, "wrong." That behavior would be wrong.

 

And this:

 

How would that be, to wake up one day, look in the mirror, and hear yourself say "What I'm doing is not as bad as..."

 

Deliberately targeting a married person also strikes me as anti-social and beyond the pale.Most of us who have had love affairs, don't decide one day to fu#k someone elses spouse. There's no premeditated intent or mens rea.

 

Many affairs start as work relationships that grow into friendships, attraction and then, possibly lubricated by alcohol, a physical and emotional relationship. That's apparently Old School, now.

 

It's a new age: there are "Affair Specialists" who plan, execute and sexually conquer married people. An affair is the goal from day one--as opposed to the end result of a long friendship and a sloppy drunk.

 

It's all too technocratic for me. Too deliberate--almost military in its precision.

 

I guess I'm old fashioned about affairs.

 

By the way, great post, Trimmer.

[Incognitox]

I'll second that, from my own experience. As a singleton I get hit on WAY more from MM's than from SG's. It's definitely NOT the way I want it, especially at work where you really have to stay "on guard" to keep your reputation intact. But that is the stone-cold reality of it.

 

WHAT???? You'd be more ok with it if you were hit on my MM outside work????

 

 

All I can get from knowhowlovefeels post is that married women aren't as independant, strong minded and confident as single women.

 

Oh, but wait, that's probably true. I guess if a woman is married to a man who hits on other women, she's going to lose her confidence, strength etc. isn't she?

[Incognitox]

I've just read this whole goddamn thread. Gezus, this Lizzy person, there is no way she's for real. If she was so damn happy with screwing around with all these married guys, she wouldn't need to brag about it on an internet forum. She's either here to:

 

1. stir the pot

2. find someone who'll back her up and give her a reason to carry on.

or

3. she's living some fantasy.

 

Number 3's got my bet!

[PollyIvy]

I have to say, I had an A and it really helped me, not only to stay married but to happily so.

All marriages have 'crises' and sometimes a person has to sort themselves out before they can truly share love and support with others. And there is not one formula for a successful M - 'talking things through' is not an option in every partnership, even good ones.

So even tho Lizzie is definitely more alternative than me, I do not disagree with the basic idea that it is possible for an A to help a M, as that is my personal experience.

[OpenBook]

WHAT???? You'd be more ok with it if you were hit on my MM outside work????

 

It's easier to fend them off outside of work. You're not worried about losing your job.

[Lizzie60]

I understand what you are saying. They either genuinely don't understand or are just reading something else into it.

 

Here's my 2 cents ....

 

Fact #1: A parent chosing to have an affair will have damgaing affects on their children.

 

Fact #2: There are a million and one things other than an affair that a parent can do to harm their children as well.

 

My personal opinion is that the damage of an affair can be minimized if BOTH parents choose to do so. Alright, I'm not big about talking about my own crappy marriage, but in the end my XH did have an affair. By then the marriage was so dead, I was more annoyed than anything. I was already ready to leave. We have a daughter together and I have no intention of ever telling her what her father did. There is no reason for her to know. I think it would only do her harm. If her father choses to tell her when she is older that is his choice, but I would rather he didn't. There is no reason for her to be caused pain becasue of our mistakes in our marriage.

 

I lack respect for parents that drag their children into these kinds of problems.

 

Good post...

 

For clarification about the kids, in my case, the MMs I see are extraordinary dads... I know that for a fact... They would never ever hurt their kids in any way. That's why we are so careful, and that's why they don't leave, mainly because they don't want to hurt their kids.

 

They are all good fathers and good husbands. All of them are smart and caring...that's why I see them. If they were mouthy slobs, I woudn't.

 

I have more respect for a MM who has an affair but yet make sure their family enjoy a good quality life... than a jerk who is faithful but yet beat his kids and wife and verbally abuse them or who doesn't work half the time... I rather vote for no. 1 as a role model.

 

Chances are that the kids will never know what's going on ... so they will not suffer from the A...

 

I love children and I would never knowingly hurt them.

[Herzen]

Good post...

 

For clarification about the kids, in my case, the MMs I see are extraordinary dads... I know that for a fact... They would never ever hurt their kids in any way. That's why we are so careful, and that's why they don't leave, mainly because they don't want to hurt their kids.

 

They are all good fathers and good husbands. All of them are smart and caring...that's why I see them. If they were mouthy slobs, I woudn't.

 

I have more respect for a MM who has an affair but yet make sure their family enjoy a good quality life... than a jerk who is faithful but yet beat his kids and wife and verbally abuse them or who doesn't work half the time... I rather vote for no. 1 as a role model.

 

Chances are that the kids will never know what's going on ... so they will not suffer from the A...

 

I love children and I would never knowingly hurt them.

 

I agree with you there, Lizzie. Sometimes good people cheat, and the bad people are faithful.Fidelity is not the total measure of the man, or woman.

 

I have a neighbor who verbally abuses his poor wife at every opportunity. Yes, he's a faithful husband.He passes the "fidelity" test but fails almost all other tests of human and spousal decency.

 

Sometimes folks are too quick to judge a person, and the relationship, by this single, overarching criterion: fidelity.Such moral monocular vision does not capture and frame a much messier and complex reality.

[Lizzie60]

I was thinking about my MMs.. the ones that have kids...

 

I remember one, this guy is an amazing father... (they're all btw)... when he left he said 'come to the car, I want to show you something'... he had just bought a really cute straw hat for his little girl... daddy's little girl. He coaches his son's hockey team... he's very involved with his kids, and he absolutely loves his wife... (he always says how pretty she is) I saw pictures of his kids but not his wife... so I believe him since he is very good-looking himself...

 

The other one, my scout dad... is also a great dad... he has 3 boys... he take his family for weekend skiing getaways in very expensive places (Mont-Tremblant), he's involved with the 'scouts' all 3 boys are scouts. He loves to talk about his kids... he never talks about his wife.

 

This other one tells me how good his son (age 7) is good in school... He was telling me that the teacher congratulates them (parents) for bringing up such a sweet, well mannered kid... He's very proud of his son.

 

So... I know these guys are amazing dads... and we like to talk about our children... they are not abusers or child molestors... they're a great people. That's one reason why I really like them.

[ThumbingMyWay]

I was thinking about my MMs.. the ones that have kids...

 

So... I know these guys are amazing dads... and we like to talk about our children... they are not abusers or child molestors... they're a great people. That's one reason why I really like them.

 

 

Ya know my wife once said to me....all her friends and work colleuges think she is a great person, nice to be aorund, good with her kids, etc. etc...

 

She asked me why I was still so angry over everything she did....

 

I told her..."I know you are all those things....but I am the only one who knows you are also a lying, deceitful alduter".....she couldnt say much after that.....

 

 

I am sure all the Mm you see are good decent people...i aint denying that....but they are also a person who is being deceitful to there wives....they are the ones how broke the promise never to dip their wick into someone else....

 

so we can SAY all we want about the good ness of a cheater.....but the truth is....they are also very decietful people in order to meet a selfish want or desire...there is no rationalizing that fact....

 

 

but everyone has there own way.....

[Lizzie60]

Ya know my wife once said to me....all her friends and work colleuges think she is a great person, nice to be aorund, good with her kids, etc. etc...

 

She asked me why I was still so angry over everything she did....

 

I told her..."I know you are all those things....but I am the only one who knows you are also a lying, deceitful alduter".....she couldnt say much after that.....

 

 

I am sure all the Mm you see are good decent people...i aint denying that....but they are also a person who is being deceitful to there wives....they are the ones how broke the promise never to dip their wick into someone else....

 

so we can SAY all we want about the good ness of a cheater.....but the truth is....they are also very decietful people in order to meet a selfish want or desire...there is no rationalizing that fact....

 

 

but everyone has there own way.....

 

So I suppose you'd rather have a wife who is a bad mother, who sucks to be around... who is a bad person...but that is loving, faithful, honest... to you... Hum... methink I rather have the other way around.

 

I honestly think that a BS is much happier with a decent person, good father, great provider, who is social, friendly, who makes sure his family has all they need... who is fun to be around (but gets some sex on the side) than an abuser, a jerk who beats her, who doesn't provide for his family, who makes everyone around him miserable... who drinks all his money... who takes drugs or gamble all his money.. where the children can't get into sports activities or have decent clothes because the dad is a total abusive jerk.

 

Sorry...but no one will ever make me change my mind about this.

[IpAncA]

That's one reason why I really like them.

 

Yes and that's probably why there taken and their W'ves like them. But you have to understand, you're only getting one side. They can't be all that great if their seeking outside the marriage.

 

By the way your talking about them, you make their W'ves out to be scum and that's probably not the case. You mentioned their W'ves won't have sex with them, well what are those reasons according to their W'ves? You have to talk to both sides to make a clear generalization and instead are making assumptions. Unless you've sat down and talked to both which I doubt. OW are lied to just as their W'ves are. Your no different.

 

Even though you don't believe in marriage nor have respect for them, you should at least have respect for two people who are committed to each other. But if you don't recognize that then well I see why you have no respect. You don't care as long as your happy regardless of who's hurt.

 

And you asked why people can't respect OW's livestyle. IMO that's not a lifestyle worth respecting if that's what you call it. I can't respect people who helps reck marriages. I can respect that are views are different but that's it.

 

By the way, great post, Trimmer.

 

I agree.

 

Sorry...but no one will ever make me change my mind about this.

 

Yes we know that. It's hard for a person to change something once they have their heart set on it.

[Lizzie60]

Yes and that's probably why there taken and their W'ves like them. But you have to understand, you're only getting one side. They can't be all that great if their seeking outside the marriage.

 

By the way your talking about them, you make their W'ves out to be scum and that's probably not the case. You mentioned their W'ves won't have sex with them, well what are those reasons according to their W'ves? You have to talk to both sides to make a clear generalization and instead are making assumptions. Unless you've sat down and talked to both which I doubt. OW are lied to just as their W'ves are. Your no different.

 

Even though you don't believe in marriage nor have respect for them, you should at least have respect for two people who are committed to each other. But if you don't recognize that then well I see why you have no respect. You don't care as long as your happy regardless of who's hurt.

 

And you asked why people can't respect OW's livestyle. IMO that's not a lifestyle worth respecting if that's what you call it. I can't respect people who helps reck marriages. I can respect that are views are different but that's it.

 

 

 

I agree.

 

 

 

Yes we know that. It's hard for a person to change something once they have their heart set on it.

 

They can't be all that great if their seeking outside the marriage.

 

And why not? Why can't they be great dads, good provider, good lover to their wife... etc...?????

 

By the way your talking about them, you make their W'ves out to be scum and that's probably not the case.

 

Where did I say that their wives were scum??? I never and never would say that... don't put words in my mouth... I know it's not the case, I know these women are good mothers, etc.

 

All I said is that they don't have sex more than once or twice a month... and yes you're right I only have one side...but I trust these guys... why would they lie to me... we're not even committed...

 

You have your opinions on OW/OM... I have mine... so we have to agree to have different opinions... it's that simple. and that what makes a forum like this one so interesting.

 

If we all agree...all the time... it would be boring wouldn't it?

[whichwayisup]

good lover to their wife... etc...?????

 

Because a good and honest lover doesn't cheat on his wife.

 

why would they lie to me... we're not even committed...

 

Because MM lie. Also, the MM you're with don't 'owe' you anything. What difference does it make if they tell you the truth or not? Honestly, I doubt it would make a difference in your life.

 

People believe what they want to believe.....

[IpAncA]

Where did I say that their wives were scum??? I never and never would say that... don't put words in my mouth... I know it's not the case, I know these women are good mothers, etc.

 

All I said is that they don't have sex more than once or twice a month... and yes you're right I only have one side...but I trust these guys... why would they lie to me... we're not even committed...

 

Re-read my post. I said your making them out to be that. It's the way your coming across.

 

And you asked why would they lie to you? You don't have to be in a committed relationship. People lie outside of one. What makes you so different?

[Darth Vader]

Well some people don't beleive in god, they live their lives by their own set of rules not by some mandate that was written thousands of years ago to create order in some ancient society.'

 

Yeah GOD also said you should love thy neighbour, I don't see a whole lot of that going on around here, unless of course someone agrees with a particular point of view then there is plenty of love to go around :laugh:

 

It's getting nutty now....sleepy bye bye

 

 

Even if a person doesn't believe in God, that doesn't make him go away.

A better way of putting it would be: A person could close their eyes, cover their ears, and yell really really loudly, but, it doesn't change anything. Wrong is still Wrong, no matter how you slice it. Man, or woman didn't make the rules, God did, it's up to every person to follow them, if they don't, they'll face the Eternal consequences, period.

[Lizzie60]

Because a good and honest lover doesn't cheat on his wife.

 

 

 

Because MM lie. Also, the MM you're with don't 'owe' you anything. What difference does it make if they tell you the truth or not? Honestly, I doubt it would make a difference in your life.

 

People believe what they want to believe.....

 

I disagree.. if they are good lovers to me...then I can only suppose they are good lovers to them... I have/had a few who are really bad lovers..so I feel sorry for the W... really.

 

I can tell when a MM lies... I know them well enough by now... I just had a call this morning about another MM... I see him maybe 6 times a year... he's such a liar but hey... I just listen to him...but I can tell and it's so funny... this one is quite a complicated loser... LOL

[Darth Vader]

Right but for the most part those smokers live a happy life not really thinking about the fact they could die from the habbit. So are they in denial or are they just willing to live how THEY see fit? And a lot of them DON't die of anything related to smoking....or simply quit down the road because they don't wish to do it anymore.

So is smoking wrong or right or just a matter of a safe choice vs a risky one?

 

 

I'm not going down rabbit trails with you, stay on the subject.

[IpAncA]

I disagree.. if they are good lovers to me...then I can only suppose they are good lovers to them... I have/had a few who are really bad lovers..so I feel sorry for the W... really.

 

Oh no no no. What a good lover to one may not be to another.

[Lizzie60]

Even if a person doesn't believe in God, that doesn't make him go away.

A better way of putting it would be: A person could close their eyes, cover their ears, and yell really really loudly, but, it doesn't change anything. Wrong is still Wrong, no matter how you slice it. Man, or woman didn't make the rules, God did, it's up to every person to follow them, if they don't, they'll face the Eternal consequences, period.

 

I think this is a load of cra*p... I don't believe in God, or karma... I have my own set of rules... and I don't believe in Eternal consequences as you put it...

 

To each their own... if there was less 'religious fanatics', this world would be a better place..

 

This is my opinion about religion...

[Lizzie60]

Oh no no no. What a good lover to one may not be to another.

 

I'm certainly not going to call her on that... LOL

 

OK...now I have to go... I have an afternoon delight with the manager today... hummmmm.

 

Touroulou

[Darth Vader]

She's either here to:

 

1. stir the pot

2. find someone who'll back her up and give her a reason to carry on.

or

3. she's living some fantasy.

 

Number 3's got my bet!

 

 

I think it's all 3.

[Darth Vader]

I think this is a load of cra*p... I don't believe in God, or karma... I have my own set of rules... and I don't believe in Eternal consequences as you put it...

 

To each their own... if there was less 'religious fanatics', this world would be a better place..

 

This is my opinion about religion...

 

 

You'll get that soon, under the rule of the Antichrist!

 

As far as you not believing, I'm not surprised, but, like I said, that won't make God go away!

 

I hit a nerve!

[luvmy2ns]

thanks Lizzie! yeah I don't agree with your lifestyle for me but my life is not everyone else's. Now if we were friends and I found out your were with my H then that would be totally a different story :mad:LOL but if we were friends I doubt you would do that...

 

Oh, don't doubt it for a second if your man was offering $$$. Remember, what you don't know won't hurt you. That's the theme of this entire thread.

[Trialbyfire]

Oh, don't doubt it for a second if your man was offering $$$. Remember, what you don't know won't hurt you. That's the theme of this entire thread.

I would say that the entire thread is about self-empowerment over others. It's attention getting with the heady feeling that no one can stop you, irrespective of their pain.

 

It's a form of megalomania.