Sufferings is result of our sins?

[amerikajin]

We use the Bible for it's intent. Just like any other history book. We learn from the past what happened, the events that took place that shaped the way we think, act and feel.What do you mean, "nobody" knows the context? We have historians, archeoligists, scientists and theologians all of which contribute to reading the Bible for all it's worth.

 

Also, (believe it or not), to the saved, we have the Holy Spirit who opens our understanding to the word as well.The, "book" has only ONE author. There isn't a word, period, comma or quote that is in the Bible that God didn't divinely put in there Himself.

 

Moose, I mean not to offend, but it truly amazes me that you actually believe what you've written.

[Love Hurts]

Jews don't sacrifice animals anymore because the Temple was destroyed. But when it is built again, they will start up. No worries, animal activists: The Temple will probably never be rebuilt.

 

By your above comment, you would let PETA or presumably any other activist group dictate how you worship god. Why? Your soul is at stake. What do you care what anyone else says. If god says that yo have to kill animals, you have to do it, don't you?

 

God says that if you are a believer you can drink poison and are immune to venomous snakes. Do you drink poison, or handle cobras without fear? If not, why not?

 

Hebrews 10:4

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

 

In the O.T. this was a covering for sin not atonement for sin.

Jesus is the sacrificial Lamb, since the cross it is no longer necessary to use animal blood …as a covering for sin.

 

The Blood of Jesus is the cleansing from Sin.

Those of the O.T. looked forward to the cross;

as we today look back on it.

[Love Hurts]

When you say, "add", to the law, you're taking what He said out of context.

 

He's, "fulfilled" the law so we wouldn't be expected to follow them to the letter, (as given to us by Moses), which is simple impossible to do in this day and age.

 

Galatians Chapter 2:

 

16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

 

17 "If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not!

 

18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker.

 

19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God.

 

20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

 

21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

 

This has been a great topic … I now understand the Sabbath…

Christ is the Sabbath. Saved as we worship Him…. He said come unto me and I will give you rest… We rest in the Lord… We worship every day and have rest in Him everyday.

 

Amazing Grace….

 

Jesus Christ and his disciples ran through the corn fields on the Jewish sabbath day:

 

Mr 2:23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.

 

Mr 2:24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?

 

Mr 2:25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?

 

Mr 2:26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the showbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?

 

Mr 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

 

Mr 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

also:

 

Ex 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

 

Ex 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

 

Their "generation" ended as God's chosen people with Christ's dispensation. The sabbath was a rest.

 

They weren't to go hardly anywhere and they weren't to do much of anything. Why not?

 

Because God wanted the day kept Holy, and they couldn't live/do much of anything without sinning back under the Law.

 

And God wanted His Holy REST observed - this was one day per week. Today, in the new dispensation, Christ as our example, he said HE is Lord of the Sabbath; we are to walk as He walked, and the REST he gives is one for our SOULS not our BODIES.

 

Mt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

 

Mt 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

 

Everything was literal under the LAW because that's as far as God could go with Mankind because of the inherent sin. But because of the death and ressurection of the spotless lamb, we can be saved from committed sins when we have repented and have forsaken them and then once the vessel is made pure, we can present our vessel/ our bodies as a living sacrifice and when God sees we mean business and our "self" is on the altar of sacrifice, He will purge out that inherent sin; that carnal nature and the Precious Holy Spirit of God will come and make His abode in our hearts. At this point, we have entered into His HOLY REST: Sanctification. and this rest is not just for one day, but it's a rest from our own works; our own "self", and it's every day of our lives.

 

Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

 

Praise Jesus ..one day at a time..

[Moose]

Yep. Archaeologists demonstrate the Bible to be false every day.

Yep. It also demonstrates the Bible to be true every day. But you choose to ignore that fact.

You accept science when it suits you--because you have to accept that the Earth revolves around the Sun, for example--but reject it when it takes some effort to understand, or flat-out undermines your book.

You're making generalizations. I personally love science. I personally believe in science. Science is a gift from God Himself. BUT, only GOD know science in it's entirety, and I would be a total fool if I banked my whole roll on it.

Ok. So tell me this: Why doesn't the leprosy cure given in Leviticus work? Do you think that it EVER worked?

 

Leviticus 14:49-53:

 

49And he shall take to cleanse the house two birds, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop: 50And he shall kill the one of the birds in an earthen vessel over running water:

51And he shall take the cedar wood, and the hyssop, and the scarlet, and the living bird, and dip them in the blood of the slain bird, and in the running water, and sprinkle the house seven times:

52And he shall cleanse the house with the blood of the bird, and with the running water, and with the living bird, and with the cedar wood, and with the hyssop, and with the scarlet:

53But he shall let go the living bird out of the city into the open fields, and make an atonement for the house: and it shall be clean.

 

I have read that "leprosy" in the Bible may have referred to many skin diseases. I'll even give you that. Name a skin disease that the above would cure. That wouldn't even help adolescent acne. But it MUST work, as the Bible was written by god who controlled every punctuation mark, etc. Right?

This was a process done after the steps were taken to remove the disease from the homes. Not to be the cure all end all.....and it was more of a, "proclamation" that these steps where done. A Notarization if you will.

THIS is a contradiction. You can't follow Moses' laws in this day and age, but you CAN follow Jesus'.. WTF?????/

You can't follow Moses' laws TO THE LETTER. You just can't. I'm not saying you shouldn't obey the laws, I'm saying that you are POWERLESS to do so right down to the letter! We should always, ALWAYS try our best, but we are just mere pee-ons compared to Holy God, far from perfection.

By your above comment, you would let PETA or presumably any other activist group dictate how you worship god. Why? Your soul is at stake. What do you care what anyone else says. If god says that yo have to kill animals, you have to do it, don't you?

It's against the law to sacrifice animals where I live. Probably just about anywhere anymore. I still have to follow today's laws you know:

 

1 Peter 2:13- 15

 

"Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether to the king, as supreme; Or to governors, as to them that are sent by Him for the punishment of evil-doers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well-doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men."

Moose, I mean not to offend, but it truly amazes me that you actually believe what you've written.

That's ok, I do know what you mean. No offense was taken.

[mike7070]

God does not exist.

 

Ask me how I know?

 

Oh....I can't explain it......I just have faith.

[mike7070]

Had to add this:

 

Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll go to a burning place with a lake of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you! ...And he needs money! He's all powerful, but he can't handle money!....GC

[a4a]

Had to add this:

 

Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll go to a burning place with a lake of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you! ...And he needs money! He's all powerful, but he can't handle money!....GC

 

Are you talking about Santa Claus? :lmao:

[Moose]

Had to add this:

 

Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll go to a burning place with a lake of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you! ...And he needs money! He's all powerful, but he can't handle money!....GC

Do you have anything to contribute besides your blasphemies? You're not accomplishing anything here....

[mike7070]

forum. 1. A public place or marketplace in an ancient Roman city. 2. A public meeting place, radio or TV program, or area in a newspaper or computer bulletin board in which two or more people may openly discuss ideas.

 

What am I missing here.....

 

I make a statement and it's blasphemy....you make a statement and it's fact....where's "the openly discuss ideas"

 

Where am I wrong here:

 

"God does not exist.

 

Ask me how I know?

 

Oh....I can't explain it......I just have faith."

 

 

It's the other side of the same coin....Why is your faith right and mine is wrong?

[Moose]

What am I missing here.....

You're not on topic. Your first post was meant to make a statement, not to respond to the topic at hand.

 

If you want to go back to post #1, and read through this whole thread, then respond with a related question or comment.....that would be a totally different thing.....

[mike7070]

You're not on topic. Your first post was meant to make a statement, not to respond to the topic at hand.

 

If you want to go back to post #1, and read through this whole thread, then respond with a related question or comment.....that would be a totally different thing.....

Your right.........I apologize

[Island Girl]

You're not on topic. Your first post was meant to make a statement, not to respond to the topic at hand.

 

If you want to go back to post #1, and read through this whole thread, then respond with a related question or comment.....that would be a totally different thing.....

 

Jesus Christ Moose!

 

You sound like one of those busy body little kids running around pointing out what everyone else is doing wrong -- like a little tattle tale

 

Did those statements by Mike7070 really hit a sore spot or what?

[Island Girl]

Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll go to a burning place with a lake of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you! ...And he needs money! He's all powerful, but he can't handle money!....GC

 

Exactly!

 

I am SO GLAD you put it this way.

 

Suffering is not because of sin. "Sin" has nothing to do with it since it is just coming from an invisible man in the sky, etc.

 

Great post mike7070.

[mike7070]

Exactly!

 

I am SO GLAD you put it this way.

 

Suffering is not because of sin. "Sin" has nothing to do with it since it is just coming from an invisible man in the sky, etc.

 

Great post mike7070.

Thanks Island Girl.....

 

I went back and reread the first post...

 

"Sufferings is result of our sins?

The main reason we suffer is that we sinned against God's will. Some aren't, like Job. God wrote a living law in our heart, we chose to ignore, we bear consequences. Repent, you will get saved."

 

I was on topic, if there is no god....you can't sin against something that doesn't exist.

 

Moose:

 

I must withdraw my apology

[mike7070]

Oh by the way Island Girl.......I'm not that good....the GC at the end of the quote is George Carlin....but it does say it all....

[Moai]

Hebrews 10:4

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

 

In the O.T. this was a covering for sin not atonement for sin.

Jesus is the sacrificial Lamb, since the cross it is no longer necessary to use animal blood …as a covering for sin.

 

The Blood of Jesus is the cleansing from Sin.

Those of the O.T. looked forward to the cross;

as we today look back on it.

 

Yep. Hebrews is in the New Testament. Notice that in the Cain and Able story, god DID want animal sacrifice. In fact, much of Leviticus (and some of Deuteronomy, I think) go into agonizing detail about exactly how to go about killing animals. The smell of their burnt flesh is pleasing to god. That's in Leviticus 1:8-17, by the way.

[Moai]

Yep. It also demonstrates the Bible to be true every day. But you choose to ignore that fact.

 

Really? So the fossil hominids we find demonstrate the Bible to be true? That's a new one on me.

 

Now, if you are claiming that settlements are found where the Bible says they were, that does not make the whole book true. I have read "A Tale of Two Cities" and in that book there is a city called Paris, France, which is right where the book says it is, but that doesn't mean the story is true.

 

You're making generalizations. I personally love science. I personally believe in science. Science is a gift from God Himself. BUT, only GOD know science in it's entirety, and I would be a total fool if I banked my whole roll on it.

 

Why? Science has done an excellent job of explaining the way the world works so far. And while you claim to love science, you seem to reject it when it bumps up against your book, and have demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of even basic biology. I think that you love science when it benefits you and doesn't challenge your ad hoc belief system, and resent it when it shows that belief system to be false. Which is hypocritical, in my view. But it's a free country, believe as you wish. I will, of course, challenge your views, just as you should challenge mine.

 

This was a process done after the steps were taken to remove the disease from the homes. Not to be the cure all end all.....and it was more of a, "proclamation" that these steps where done. A Notarization if you will.

 

Um, ok. Once this is done what is left over for the people to see that the house is "clean" now? Beyond that, are you suggesting that at that time there was a cure for leprosy, while today with the advances in medical science we do not? What was that cure, and why have we forgotten it--especially since we still have the book that refers to it?

 

You can't follow Moses' laws TO THE LETTER. You just can't. I'm not saying you shouldn't obey the laws, I'm saying that you are POWERLESS to do so right down to the letter! We should always, ALWAYS try our best, but we are just mere pee-ons compared to Holy God, far from perfection.It's against the law to sacrifice animals where I live. Probably just about anywhere anymore. I still have to follow today's laws you know:

 

1 Peter 2:13- 15

 

"Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether to the king, as supreme; Or to governors, as to them that are sent by Him for the punishment of evil-doers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well-doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men."That's ok, I do know what you mean. No offense was taken.

 

Well, you think that Peter gives you a free pass, but there are those that disagree. There are people right now following all of the laws that Moses was given. Certainly, it is easier in their culture that it would be for you, but that is beside the point.

 

You don't follow Jesus' laws, either. Does your wife wear a hat when she prays? the Bible says that she is supposed to. Did you sell all your stuff and give the proceeds to the poor? I doubt it, since you obviously have a computer. The truth is, you follow the ones that are easy and ignore the ones that are difficult, or at least make up ad hoc reasons to not follow them. And that's fine, it makes me no never mind, but how can you be sure that god feels the same way?

[Moai]

Do you have anything to contribute besides your blasphemies? You're not accomplishing anything here....

 

I quote Mark Twain:

"Irreverence is another person's disrespect to your god; there isn't any word that tells what your disrespect to his god is."

 

Replace "irreverence" with blasphemy and it means the same thing.

[Moose]

Really? So the fossil hominids we find demonstrate the Bible to be true? That's a new one on me.

And so it is so with science, and always will be with science. Just because the person, or scientist(s) haven't proved it yet, doesn't make this any less than a reality.

Now, if you are claiming that settlements are found where the Bible says they were, that does not make the whole book true. I have read "A Tale of Two Cities" and in that book there is a city called Paris, France, which is right where the book says it is, but that doesn't mean the story is true.

I was referring to the ruins yes......you've made an excellent point. One has to wonder if he/she should believe ANYTHING that's written....

And while you claim to love science, you seem to reject it when it bumps up against your book, and have demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of even basic biology.

And where did you come up with these conclusions. Particularly where I reject science when it bumps up against, "my"......book? The biology part is true. I don't give a flip about it, mainly because I have other things going on in my life to occupy my mind.......

Um, ok. Once this is done what is left over for the people to see that the house is "clean" now? Beyond that, are you suggesting that at that time there was a cure for leprosy, while today with the advances in medical science we do not? What was that cure, and why have we forgotten it--especially since we still have the book that refers to it?

There isn't anything left over to show the people the house is, "clean".....hence this, "ritual", that shows the public this person, or that person took all of the steps known to them at the time to remove the disease from their house. Not cure it, remove it......and I'm not claiming that it actually worked......it probably didn't in all reality.....

Well, you think that Peter gives you a free pass, but there are those that disagree.

How did you come with Peter giving the believer a free pass? That scripture CLEARLY says we are to obey the law......????? I think you need to slow down a bit, and read slower.....

You don't follow Jesus' laws, either. Does your wife wear a hat when she prays? the Bible says that she is supposed to. No it doesn't. Not under the new covenant. Did you sell all your stuff and give the proceeds to the poor? Trust me, you'll never know what I contribute to the poor....I doubt it, since you obviously have a computer. "A" computer.....I LITERALLY have tons of computers..... The truth is, you follow the ones that are easy and ignore the ones that are difficult, or at least make up ad hoc reasons to not follow them. And that's fine, it makes me no never mind, but how can you be sure that god feels the same way?

Oh....I'm sure that if that's how I am, God wouldn't feel the same way.

 

It's a good thing He knows our hearts.......

[Island Girl]

you've made an excellent point. One has to wonder if he/she should believe ANYTHING that's written....

 

Exactly.

 

That is why any history book - in order to believe it REALLY is what happened we look for corroborating evidence outside of that book, other accounts for instance, to remove all doubt.

 

You can't do this with the bible.

 

I am so glad you are finally seeing the point Moose.

[Moose]

You can't do this with the bible.

Oh yes I can, and I have.....it's you that can't......or to put it more accurately, it's you that CHOOSES not to.......

I am so glad you are finally seeing the point Moose.

I can just feel you sincerity in that sentence......

[Moai]

And so it is so with science, and always will be with science. Just because the person, or scientist(s) haven't proved it yet, doesn't make this any less than a reality.

 

Well, there is no proof in science. There is evidence and there is not. All of the hominid evidence we have shows that we share a common ancestor with apes. Nobody in biology or paleontology disputes this. Are you saying you agree with them? Also, in science you don't EVER take someone's word for it. I have seen the evidence, too, and I agree with them.

 

I was referring to the ruins yes......you've made an excellent point. One has to wonder if he/she should believe ANYTHING that's written....

 

There is a sliding scale of believability. If I get a letter from you that has your name on it, it is reasonable to assume that it is your real name. It is not an outlandish claim, so it requires little if any evidence. The more outlandish the claim, the great evidence is needed to determine its validity.

 

And where did you come up with these conclusions. Particularly where I reject science when it bumps up against, "my"......book? The biology part is true. I don't give a flip about it, mainly because I have other things going on in my life to occupy my mind.......

 

That's because biology shows the Biblical account of Creation to be false. Even a cursory understanding of biology demonstrates that. As I said, the areas of science that immediately help you are fine and you understand them (you have at least a basic knowledge of computers, for example), but if this same tool is applied somewhere else and shows things to be not as you hope they are, you ignore it or don't have time for it.

 

There isn't anything left over to show the people the house is, "clean".....hence this, "ritual", that shows the public this person, or that person took all of the steps known to them at the time to remove the disease from their house. Not cure it, remove it......and I'm not claiming that it actually worked......it probably didn't in all reality.....

 

Then why did god command that it be done? Does god command people do meaningless rituals for fun?

 

How did you come with Peter giving the believer a free pass? That scripture CLEARLY says we are to obey the law......????? I think you need to slow down a bit, and read slower..... Oh....I'm sure that if that's how I am, God wouldn't feel the same way.

 

Yes, Scripture CLEARLY says that we are to obey the law. And I miswrote when I again used Peter's name, I should have said, "Paul." But my point is the same. Jesus said, "Follow all my father's commandments, sell all your belongings, and follow me, and you will be amongst the saved." He says that five times, at least. Yet nobody does it. And while whether or not it is feasible to follow all the commandments or not is debatable, there are certainly commandments that you can follow that you don't--namely the whole thing about giving all your stuff away.

 

It's a good thing He knows our hearts.......

 

Too bad he values what we think above what we do.

[Love Hurts]

Yep. Hebrews is in the New Testament. Notice that in the Cain and Able story, god DID want animal sacrifice. In fact, much of Leviticus (and some of Deuteronomy, I think) go into agonizing detail about exactly how to go about killing animals. The smell of their burnt flesh is pleasing to god. That's in Leviticus 1:8-17, by the way.

 

The New Testament Books also tell of what was and what isn’t any longer.

In O.T. before Christ… we must know sin is grave to God. NO basket of fruit offered is acceptable as in the Cain and Able story. One offering pleased God the other did not.

 

Animal blood was a covering for sin. Today it is no longer necessary… Jesus blood shed is the blood that cleanses and is atonement for sin.

 

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life.

No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

For it is by grace you have been saved, though faith - and this not

from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one

can boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).

 

Moai have you ever been to a barbeque?

The aroma is pleasing.

If you eat meat; you may be considered vicious; as some animal had to satisfy you.

How horrible if you’re a meat eater…imagine the death of an animal that you might be pleased.

[Island Girl]

Moai have you ever been to a barbeque?

The aroma is pleasing.

If you eat meat; you may be considered vicious; as some animal had to satisfy you.

How horrible if you’re a meat eater…imagine the death of an animal that you might be pleased.

 

Blood sacrifice to appease an imaginary being is not quite the same as eating protein for nourishment is it?

 

Now big game "hunters" - "hunting" for trophies - possibly closer. But they are "hunting" to gain something tangible.

 

Blood sacrifice is to please an imaginary being. Nothing tangible comes from it. The people who take anything away are the people involved in the sacrifice and then what they take away are delusions.

 

Nope not the same thing as a barbeque. I've been to those and there has never been one like that.

 

 

Hmmm yet another link with Santa. Leaving cookies and milk out as an offering...

 

I voice that Santa should be followed as the new God.

 

He is jolly and fat. He is omniscient. He gives people presents and all you have to do is be nice.

 

He only gives you coal when you are naughty and he can travel the world stopping at every house in an evening.

 

Yep. Much better version of God.

 

And there is just as much evidence that he exists.

[lonelybird]

Psalms

14:1 Fools say to themselves,“There is no God.”

They sin and commit evil deeds;

none of them does what is right.

 

14:2 The Lord looks down from heaven at the human race,

to see if there is anyone who is wise and seeks God.

 

14:3 Everyone rejects God;

they are all morally corrupt.

None of them does what is right,

not even one!

 

14:4 All those who behave wickedly do not understand –

those who devour my people as if they were eating bread,

and do not call out to the Lord.

 

14:5 They are absolutely terrified,

for God defends the godly.

 

14:6 You want to humiliate the oppressed,

even though the Lord is their shelter.

 

14:7 I wish the deliverance of Israel would come from Zion!

When the Lord restores the well-being of his people,

may Jacob rejoice,

may Israel be happy!

 

 

11:7 The LORD is righteous and loves good deeds; those who do them will live in his presence.