Sufferings is result of our sins?

[Moai]

Moai do you think Jesus was possibly delusional? It states early in Mark (the first gospel written) that his family thought he was mad and that the pharisees said he was posessed by beelzebub.

 

I sometimes wonder if he real Jesus would shock many modern people with their image having been informed by modern European interpretation. I wonder if he would been loud and wild eyed and speak with anger....fly into trances and quake and shout frightening incantations when casting out spirits

 

Yes, I would say that the individual described in the Gospels was delusional. Just consider anyone walking around, doing rather mundane magic tricks and claiming to be god now. Obviously delusional.

 

If Jesus was alive now he'd do fifteen weeks at the Stardust in Vegas every year.

[Moose]

Since you're so good at posting scripture, find the one that says it's okay to work on the Sabbath -- or that you can observe whatever day of worship that you want and it doesn't matter. I'd LOVE to see it.

Well....here you go:

 

Working on the Sabbath:

 

New Testament; Luke 13:

 

14 Indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue ruler said to the people, "There are six days for work. So come and be healed on those days, not on the Sabbath."

 

15 The Lord answered him, "You hypocrites! Doesn't each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water?

 

16 Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?"

 

17 When he said this, all his opponents were humiliated, but the people were delighted with all the wonderful things he was doing.

[Topper]

Moose that is all well and good But what passage in the new or old testament says that the Sabbath is now changed to Sunday?

Sunday was the day that believers worshiped the Pagon god of the Sun. This was a very powerful religion in Rome.

[Moose]

Moose that is all well and good But what passage in the new or old testament says that the Sabbath is now changed to Sunday?

Sunday was the day that believers worshiped the Pagon god of the Sun. This was a very powerful religion in Rome.

There isn't any.

 

Saturday is and always will be the, "Sabbath". Sunday is and always will be the first day of the week.

 

There isn't anything in the Bible that says we can't worship during the week either, "Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy" still applies, however, there is no law saying that we can't keep every day Holy and worship God continually throughout the week.....

[Topper]

Moose your right you can see any day of the week asa holy day Yet it is the sabbath that in set forth as the one day of the week to be holy by God. Yet Christians changed that day. I Use this as just one example of the many things that Christians do that are in contradiction to the Very laws that Christ said were not to be changed. You have to believe Paul and his vision. Paul and the Founders of the first Chruch under James were in conflict over Paul's so called vision. Jesus said he was here to add to the laws and not destroy the laws. yet paul's vision does destroy Rabbinic law that was given to Moses by God. This is not to say that those who were not Jewish could not follow Christ. They could convert and become Jewish.

[Moose]

Yet it is the sabbath that in set forth as the one day of the week to be holy by God. Yet Christians changed that day.

Explain to me how you came up with Christians changing that day? I certainly haven't and neither has anyone in my Church.

 

Just because we go to Church on Sundays, doesn't mean we've changed the Sabbath.....

[Topper]

The Sabbath is the day you go to Temple it is the day you set aside for rest You are not to work, you are to reflect on God . Nor are you to engage in commerce. Cooking some foods and other things are forbidden on the Sabbath. Yet look around The Sabbath is not honored by Christan's in anyway shape or form. It is not the day to mow your lawn, it is not the day to go to the mall and shop. Do choers like banking or picking up your dry cleaning. It is not the day to Go Hunting or Fishing.

The same goes for a number of other laws set forth by God that Christians choose to ignore. Why when Jesus clearly states that he was not here to change the law but add to the law?

[Moose]

Why when Jesus clearly states that he was not here to change the law but add to the law?

When you say, "add", to the law, you're taking what He said out of context.

 

He's, "fulfilled" the law so we wouldn't be expected to follow them to the letter, (as given to us by Moses), which is simple impossible to do in this day and age.

 

Galatians Chapter 2:

 

16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

 

17 "If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not!

 

18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker.

 

19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God.

 

20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

 

21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

[Topper]

Galatians are the words of Paul. He is the one that hijacked Christianity. Most of his letters are justifications and or refutes of What James the brother of Jesus was saying in Jerusalem. Again Jesus in his own words does not say he is there to change the law. In fact he is clear in stating he thinks people should obey the law. Paul contradicts the words of Jesus. he goes against the first Chruch. He basically tells the very people who were actually with Jesus and know Jesus as a flesh and blood man , that they are wrong and he Paul who never met Jesus before the crucifixion is right. he had a vision yet there are no witnesses to his vision. All other visions of Jesus were witnessed by more then one person.

[Moose]

Galatians are the words of Paul. He is the one that hijacked Christianity. Most of his letters are justifications and or refutes of What James the brother of Jesus was saying in Jerusalem. Again Jesus in his own words does not say he is there to change the law. In fact he is clear in stating he thinks people should obey the law. Paul contradicts the words of Jesus. he goes against the first Chruch. He basically tells the very people who were actually with Jesus and know Jesus as a flesh and blood man , that they are wrong and he Paul who never met Jesus before the crucifixion is right. he had a vision yet there are no witnesses to his vision. All other visions of Jesus were witnessed by more then one person.

I'm not saying that I agree with what you just wrote. I think you're still taking the Sciptures out of it's context. You must, MUST, always keep in mind the time, the genre and the events surrounding it. With that said, you want to hear it from Jesus' mouth then, concerning the law??:

 

16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

 

17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

 

18 "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, "'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony,

 

19 honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"

 

20 "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"

 

21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." (Note, this isn't a commandment, rather it's a, "Heart Attitude")

 

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

 

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

 

25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

 

26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

 

27 Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"

 

28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

 

30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first

[sb129]

I think you're still taking the Sciptures out of it's context. You must, MUST, always keep in mind the time, the genre and the events surrounding it.

 

So how does that then apply to the present day?

 

Moose, you keep talking about context.

 

How CAN you take the bible IN context, when nobody really knows the context in which it was written?

 

The book has many authors over a long time, and NOBODY living now can definitively say that they know what context a collection of books over two thousand years old was written in.

[Moose]

So how does that then apply to the present day?

We use the Bible for it's intent. Just like any other history book. We learn from the past what happened, the events that took place that shaped the way we think, act and feel.

How CAN you take the bible IN context, when nobody really knows the context in which it was written?

What do you mean, "nobody" knows the context? We have historians, archeoligists, scientists and theologians all of which contribute to reading the Bible for all it's worth.

 

Also, (believe it or not), to the saved, we have the Holy Spirit who opens our understanding to the word as well.

The book has many authors over a long time,

The, "book" has only ONE author. There isn't a word, period, comma or quote that is in the Bible that God didn't divinely put in there Himself.

[Topper]

Moose that passage is all well and good. It does not say that the laws of Moses are now noll and void. In fact he is stating that they are still in effect but you need to do more. I do se the Bible in context of it's time. I also see what else was written in those times by sources outside the codex of the Bible. I also know that the Bible as we know it was not put together untill 300 years after the life of Jesus. Most of the first Know writing about Jesus were not allowed into the Bible. The 4 gospels are 2nd or 3 generation manuscriptsat best. A great many Biblical Scholars feel the Gospel of Thomas might be the first written account of Jesus. The gospel of John reads as a rebuttal to Thomas after you read Thomas. Many think that Paul or his followers destroyed the Letters that James and others sent out to the Church's Paul was establishing with the Gentiles. Many of Paul's letters read like replies to criticism of his teachings by other authorities. Most Jewish Scholars have a great many problems with the old testament translations found in the King James Bible. There is also a lot of dispute on the translation of much of the text in the new testament.

Paul was a great salesman, promoter, marketer and PR man. some see him as a Con man. Personal feel he simply got carried away with his new found faith. He fudged on thing and started down a road of 1/2 truths and lies, all in the name of the greater good. He Knew that if Gentiles had to follow Jewish law and become Jews the Chruch would not grow very fast. He is out on the road on his own for more then 15 years before he goes back to Jerusalem. When does return he is roundly chastised for what he has been preaching and doing among the Gentiles. He then leaves Jerusalem, basically saying We agree to disagree. I'm not sure what the Chruch in Jerusalem was saying at this point. We don't know if james also said we agree to disagree or If they just said that we disagree with Paul. As I said I believe as others do, that followers of Paul destroyed must of the documents from the Chruch in Jerusalem. Maybe some day some will be recovered as the so called Gnostic Gospels were recover in the 1950s.

[sb129]

We use the Bible for it's intent. Just like any other history book. We learn from the past what happened, the events that took place that shaped the way we think, act and feel.What do you mean, "nobody" knows the context? We have historians, archeoligists, scientists and theologians all of which contribute to reading the Bible for all it's worth.

Hence the many many many many CONFLICTING opinions of what the true context is.

Hence the disagreements.

Hence the loss of credibility to many people.

 

The, "book" has only ONE author. There isn't a word, period, comma or quote that is in the Bible that God didn't divinely put in there Himself.

SOMEBODY had to transcribe it and publish it...

It didn't just magically appear in an amazon wrapper.

Whats to say the scribe(s) got it wrong?

 

Ever played Chinese Whispers?

[sb129]

There isn't a word, period, comma or quote that is in the Bible that God didn't divinely put in there Himself.

 

Before or after the translations?

If I remember my linguistics, punctuation and grammar is a human concept.

[Moose]

It does not say that the laws of Moses are now noll and void.

I've never said Moses' laws are null and void. What I am saying, (and Jesus' teachings confirms this), that it's literally IMPOSSIBLE for us to follow them in this day and age......

[Topper]

why is it impossible in this day and age when millions of Jews do just that follow the Laws of moses. When did Jesus say Oh we can give up The law in the mid to late 20th century? I take it that is what you mean by this day and age.

Once again it was Paul and not Jesus said you do not have to obey the Law in order to follow Jesus.

[sb129]

I've never said Moses' laws are null and void. What I am saying, (and Jesus' teachings confirms this), that it's literally IMPOSSIBLE for us to follow them in this day and age......

 

moose, do you realise you are contradicting yourself?

[Moose]

why is it impossible in this day and age when millions of Jews do just that follow the Laws of moses.

Certainly not all Jews, and that's the whole point. If we were to sacrifice an animal on an alter here in the US, we'd have PETA so far up our crawl......

Once again it was Paul and not Jesus said you do not have to obey the Law in order to follow Jesus.

Please point this out in scripture......I can't remember anything to the sorts.....

[sb129]

I see the selective reading and interpretation is at work again....

[burning 4 revenge]

why is it impossible in this day and age when millions of Jews do just that follow the Laws of moses. When did Jesus say Oh we can give up The law in the mid to late 20th century? I take it that is what you mean by this day and age.

Once again it was Paul and not Jesus said you do not have to obey the Law in order to follow Jesus.

I do think that Jesus may have been liberal with the Law. If he wasn't and if he made no controversial claims then why was Saul persecuting the young Jerusalem church? If they were so conservative in their beliefs they wouldn't have offended the pharisees and yet they did.

 

I mentioned this before and I think it's worth mentioning again. Galilee was only Jewish for about one hundred years before the time of Jesus having been forcibly converted during the reign of the Hasmonaean king John Hyrcanus. According to the Talmud the Galileeans were passionate about their faith, yet insufficiently curious about the demands of the Law (The Jewish World of Jesus p 64)

 

So long as Jesus was in Galilee I think he was safe, but I think it's possible he sealed his fate when he went south to Judea.

[Moose]

moose, do you realise you are contradicting yourself?

How so?

 

You going down Route 66, and the speed limit is 60 MPH. Your high dollar digital speedo says you're doing 59, when in reality it's off, and you're actually doing 61.

 

In your eyes, your within the contraints of the law. The reality is, you are breaking the law.....kapeesh?

[Moai]

We use the Bible for it's intent. Just like any other history book. We learn from the past what happened, the events that took place that shaped the way we think, act and feel.What do you mean, "nobody" knows the context? We have historians, archeoligists, scientists and theologians all of which contribute to reading the Bible for all it's worth.

 

Yep. Archaeologists demonstrate the Bible to be false every day. But you reject their findings in favor of your myth. You accept science when it suits you--because you have to accept that the Earth revolves around the Sun, for example--but reject it when it takes some effort to understand, or flat-out undermines your book.

 

Also, (believe it or not), to the saved, we have the Holy Spirit who opens our understanding to the word as well.The, "book" has only ONE author. There isn't a word, period, comma or quote that is in the Bible that God didn't divinely put in there Himself.

Ok. So tell me this: Why doesn't the leprosy cure given in Leviticus work? Do you think that it EVER worked?

 

Leviticus 14:49-53:

 

49And he shall take to cleanse the house two birds, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop: 50And he shall kill the one of the birds in an earthen vessel over running water:

51And he shall take the cedar wood, and the hyssop, and the scarlet, and the living bird, and dip them in the blood of the slain bird, and in the running water, and sprinkle the house seven times:

52And he shall cleanse the house with the blood of the bird, and with the running water, and with the living bird, and with the cedar wood, and with the hyssop, and with the scarlet:

53But he shall let go the living bird out of the city into the open fields, and make an atonement for the house: and it shall be clean.

 

I have read that "leprosy" in the Bible may have referred to many skin diseases. I'll even give you that. Name a skin disease that the above would cure. That wouldn't even help adolescent acne. But it MUST work, as the Bible was written by god who controlled every punctuation mark, etc. Right?

[sb129]

I've never said Moses' laws are null and void. What I am saying, (and Jesus' teachings confirms this), that it's literally IMPOSSIBLE for us to follow them in this day and age......

 

THIS is a contradiction. You can't follow Moses' laws in this day and age, but you CAN follow Jesus'.. WTF?????/ Because they are so much more up to date?

Selective interpretation.

Again.

 

How so?

 

You going down Route 66, and the speed limit is 60 MPH. Your high dollar digital speedo says you're doing 59, when in reality it's off, and you're actually doing 61.

 

In your eyes, your within the contraints of the law. The reality is, you are breaking the law.....kapeesh?

 

Oh how convenient.

 

And I will back Moai up on the science thing. Scientific laws are so intertwined, youcan't just pick and choose which ones you want to believe.

 

Bad habits die hard huh.

[Moai]

Certainly not all Jews, and that's the whole point. If we were to sacrifice an animal on an alter here in the US, we'd have PETA so far up our crawl......

 

Jews don't sacrifice animals anymore because the Temple was destroyed. But when it is built again, they will start up. No worries, animal activists: The Temple will probably never be rebuilt.

 

By your above comment, you would let PETA or presumably any other activist group dictate how you worship god. Why? Your soul is at stake. What do you care what anyone else says. If god says that yo have to kill animals, you have to do it, don't you?

 

God says that if you are a believer you can drink poison and are immune to venomous snakes. Do you drink poison, or handle cobras without fear? If not, why not?