Wanted divorce, wife changed ways

[empty906]

This 'agenda' thing has really thrown me. I have been replaying memories and things what were said by the OW all day. I want to just ask her to explain some things to me and see if her reply sounds like someone in love or someone just playing. I may do that later. Right now I still need to think some more.

 

My W tells me all the time I think too much. And this situation is good fodder for thinking!

 

Let me try and sort things out a little better and I'll get back with you all. My W and I had a couple of arguments today. Something that hasn't happened since she started 'faking' or 'trying'. The big one was when I called her for an address. She blew her top. Unbelieveable.

 

There was probably something else going on as LJ said earlier and I just took it that she was pissed at me. We yelled at each other (yes about the address, stupid, huh?) and then she hung up on me. Without giving me the addess to a get together we were supposed to go to and I was running late from finishing up some business for a client. She didn't want to go and I told her I was going anyways. I said it nicely.

 

Anyways, she called back several minutes later acting as sweet and kind as could be. She said she was getting ready and would meet me there and she gave me the address. Weird.

 

I see we still have the communication bridge to build back. One of many bridges that have been burn down. This is going to take awhile, isn't it?

[empty906]

I stayed up way too late tonight. I have to start my day in a couple of hours but I have been troubled with all the things we have been discussing. Especially the OW agenda. Man, that is really bothering me.

 

So I sent an email to the OW asking for some answers. Hopefully she will be honest with her response. Her honest response will shed some light on what was really going on. Was it like I think it was or like LJ thinks it was? Hmm. I really need to know this and what better source than the horse's mouth. That way we won't be guessing and I am ready for the worst so we are ok.

 

Hey, I guess anything can happen, huh? Even things we never see.

[OldEurope]

You might believe that the world of the EMR is the real one. But I'm not inclined to agree. To my mind... the REAL world is problematic, chaotic. The REAL world asks us to resolve our issues, not avoid them.

The AFFAIR world is the one which is based on fantasy, IMHO. It asks nothing of us, except that we be led by our emotions.

 

 

I am inclined to believe that where a man or woman invests his/her emotions, real feelings, real hunger, real needs are at stake. Not all emotional-relationship-affairs are play-acting, fantasy land. They may be, like it or not, where an individual has found himself (herself) again. They are most assuredly very real.

 

You are also assuming that the men in these marriages have not tried over and over again to remedy them. That is what I have read in Dilly and in Empty. It was not as if they walked out the door one day and entered the Wizard of Oz world of an "affair". I think that they found themselves, years into a marriage the breakdown of which seemed to be irreparable after so much trying and trying, and genuinely fell in love. Because that may not have happened to in your case, does not mean that the experience of these men was not 100% earth-solid emotion.

 

 

PWSX3 for example, is LIVING proof that inner change is possible. And proof too of what a positive force it has on one's self-esteem. He is a man who has taken stock of his life, and bravely faced whatever deficits that he, himself, might have brought to the table. He understands that HE is in charge of HIMSELF and not of anyone else. And he is determined that no matter what else happens, he's going to keep his sense of hard-won self respect. It's the man (or woman) in the mirror whose respect we MOST need afterall.

 

PWSX3, as far as I can tell, isn't 100% there yet. I think he is still wary and unsure on a certain level. I don't think there was an OW in his story if I recall correctly. And while he has faced what he needs to improve in himself that does NOT mean that the marriage itself is the proper foundation for his new found self or otherwise. You may go through architectural school and experience hardship with it, only to do some soul searching and realize you are a great painter. Though you have found yourself and "improved", you do not necessarily go on with the architecture. You go with the painting and flourish.

 

 

These days, I take personal responsibility for each and every one of my own choices. i.e. If another driver pisses me off in traffic, and I get bent out of shape about it. Yeah, he might be wrong... but HE isn't the one who's suffering over it. I'm the one feeling negative because I'm angry. There are a*holes everywhere and I can CHOOSE to not be internally affected by them, but if I don't... who's fault is that?

 

What does that have to do with the issue here? So you control your temper. Me too. Perhaps Dilly and Empty and other men wildly in love and confused also remember their manners. Life goes on. Wigging out at the world's insults, whether in a household or on a highway, are personality issues, maturity issues. They have to do with one's own level of personal calm. This is something supremely individual.

 

 

In my personal relationships, I can see motivations and causes that have NOTHING to do with me. Really, not much of anything other people feel has much to do with me anyway. So, I can address problems without internalizing them. If my husband or my child come in after a hard day acting like a thundercloud, THAT isn't about ME. If I refuse to internalize it, I can actually help them through it. They might be tired, or hungry, or frustrated at work or school... and even though they've made a mistake by slopping their feelings onto me in some nitpicking way... I can choose to help them redirect that energy and identify the correct source. That is, if I don't assume it's about ME.

 

As I say, it seems to me something very basic in life to learn that we keep ourselves calm in the eye of the storm. We learn this at work, at home, with relationship and so on. I think we are straying too much from the theme at hand: the particular situation of falling in love(not flings, not "fantasy") for real reasons outside of marriage, why it happens and if its occasion is a genuine revelation of the right person for someone

 

How long have you been married anyway? If you believe that "love is a constant", I have to wonder.

 

The years are not the issue. It is the assumptions, the clarity, personality-type, and self-knowledge with which one goes into the marriage.

 

It is like living abroad--I am an American in Europe. I know other Yankees who have been here 20 years and haven't a clue about the place they are in, maintain a very superficial relationship with their chosen country. Others have been here five years and know the place inside out with hunger and dedication. Now here you will say, Well of course, at first there is always so much exploration and excitement. Later on that will wear off, as in marriage itself. But I disagree. For the first bunch, personality-wise, they did not enter into living abroad with the right outlook, the right attitude. It was: What can this place do for me, rather than, How do I give myself to this new world. Just as I see in marriage. SO MANY people marry for the wrong reasons--"I am lonely"..."It was the thing to do"..."There was social pressure"..."She was there for me".....Rather than with strong personalities built up out and ready to go and share the world and not harangue someone else for personal shortcomings.

 

If love cannot be "blocked", how do you explain people like me who have found it again? I'm not the only one, you know. Nearly ALL married folk go through ups and downs in the course of a long marriage. During these times, they might feel like the love is all gone, but then it reappears. This is probably more normal than abnormal, so how do you explain it?

 

 

As I have repeatedly written, it is understood that marriages go up and down. That is not the issue. But they do not all end up at this level which we are seeing here of personal tormet and emotional torture. I do not believe, as you put forth in an earlier post, that "the crappiest of marriages" can or should be saved. At that point you are not in a marriage, you are roomates. I think few people should be expected to tolerate that.

 

Yes, I absolutely maintain that love is a constant. Real love does not come and go. We have all seen the older couples who still have that "glow". The man who still reveres his wife like the girl he married so many decades earlier. True, passion gets buried, niceties forgotten, etc but love does not. Love is an exalted form of appreciation, of respect. And you do not go around treating someone like hell--emotional abuse, physical distance--and then pop up and say "Oh, yeah I love him". Nonsense.

 

I think most people stay in bad marriages or marriages that have run out of gas mostly out of FEAR of a change of lifestyle, "social" problems, than because of some super special bond. I suspect, that Dilly and Empty, might end up in that court. I would like to be wrong, guys.

 

 

Now... imagine how nice it might be for a guy like that to have a woman LISTEN, and even better, to VALIDATE his concerns. Hell it doesn't take much imagination to see how that's gonna turn a man's head right off his neck.

 

Seems to me that these guys have been trying FOR YEARS to get their wives to participate in their marriages. Geez, what on earth is expected of a person?

 

I mean, is life supposed to be 24/7 problems problems problems needs needs needs you you you confusion confusion confusion...I mean, hell. There is one go around on this crazy planet and make it intelligent, passionate, full of love and interests and adventure together. Earth to Loveshack: There ARE great marriages. Go get one.

 

 

(PS to Caliguy....I most definately think any one and everyone should work through the problems of a marriage, as I wrote in the post you quoted: no leaving just at the first--or first dozen--blows. But we seem to be seeing here situations in which endless effort is being given with little in return for these men).

 

LOVE

 

OE

[PWSX3]

 

PWSX3, as far as I can tell, isn't 100% there yet.

I will be the first one to agree with you on this, I am not even close to 100%, but I know that & I am still working on it.

I think he is still wary and unsure on a certain level. I don't think there was an OW in his story if I recall correctly.

Well to keep the records straight there was 17 years ago and we went thru counseling back then, but I don't think it helped at all & I still don't feel the W has forgot or forgiven but that's another story.

And while he has faced what he needs to improve in himself that does NOT mean that the marriage itself is the proper foundation for his new found self or otherwise. You may go through architectural school and experience hardship with it, only to do some soul searching and realize you are a great painter. Though you have found yourself and "improved", you do not necessarily go on with the architecture. You go with the painting and flourish.

I have to agree with this as well. The other day when we all ate lunch the W said; I have been thinking of good things about us & she also said that everything she sees in the future has me & our son in it, but I have been thinking a lot about what people have posted here & the biggest thing that comes to mind is what Gunny keeps saying; what does she have that another woman couldn't bring to the table?

 

If I change & she doesn't then it will just go back to the old way again and "I" don't want that.

Maybe I was suppose to be a painter and that is what I need to sort out and that is what empty will also have to do.

 

Empty once you start to see things in a different light then you get a new script of all kinds of questions that you have to answer & you have more questions then answers, but hopefully as time goes you will start to be able to sort things out.

 

As for the arguement you & the W had those I feel are just tests that either help you learn or show you how the other person really is. You have to look at them & say; what could "I" have done better?

[Ladyjane14]

LJ, do you think part of this might be because us as guys when a problem comes up we need to fix it, if something is broke we need to fix it instead of maybe just needing to be there to listen.

 

Yeah, I do. Just look at the Mr. Fixit response to the 'damsel in distress' routine. I'm sure you've seen that one more than once since you started reading here at LS.

 

There are two different versions of the "Mr. Fixit" issue though... one within the marriage, and one outside of it....

 

Within the marriage, there's other data mixed in with any given issue. You take a woman who's having a hard time with a problem at work. Her husband might have heard about this SAME problem for the umpteenth time by now.

He's already offered advice and potential solutions, but here his wife is.... still yammering on about it and not DOING something.

 

Meanwhile, she's in a funk and not prepared to deal with HIM in a positive way. So, he's not only bored and frustrated with hearing the same ole' sh*t again, but he's also not looking forward to another evening where he's not having his own ENs met until she improves her mood.

 

For her part, she's already rejected his "solutions" as unworkable, and really is only interested in venting about her day. (We're kind of like "little tea pots", remember?). She needs to unload that negative energy before she can move on with her evening.

 

It's not hard to see what's gonna happen next.

Husband is going to show anger and frustration, because he doesn't feel like his wife is taking action to solve her problems, thereby making his problem.

 

Wife is going to take offense at not having her feelings prioritized as important enough for him to LISTEN to her. On top of that, she's going to be angry about any display of frustration he's made.

 

All the energy is ramped up... just because one of them came in from there day grumpy and was ill-prepared to make a positive contribution to the couple dynamic. They get into a huge argument.

 

Now, you take that same woman and she goes back to work the next day. She has an attractive male co-worker who has shown and interest in her. There's been a bit of "flirting" between them lately, and there's a sexual undercurrent to their friendship.

 

She tells him her side of the story about how her husband never listens to her. How he gets angry at her whenever she talks about her feelings. How insensitive and rude he is, and how he overreacted when she tried to talk to him.

 

Hmmmm.... there might be more than one "Mr. Fixit" in this story.

 

OM tells her how ridiculous her husband is behaving. It's just not right to treat a woman like that. If he was married he'd NEVER behave like some kind of knuckle-dragging neanderthal, particularly towards the woman that he loves. Really, if this is the best her husband can do... why does she put up with it? Why not divorce him and find a man who will treat her better?

 

Weird thing is though.... he's just like the husband, wanting to give her advice and help her "fix" the problems. BUT.... he's only got HALF the data.

This lady has just chatted him up like he was one of her girlfriends and passed on the her POV as interpreted through the female lens, where the emotional aspects of the argument were paramount.

 

 

 

So yeah PW, I really do think there's merit to women wanting their man to listen supportively. That said, I don't think they're right to take it out on the guy on the occasions where he fails to do it 'just so'.

 

There were TWO mistakes made during the initial interaction, both these folks failed to be considerate of the other. The guy wasn't listening supportively and he overreacted to his wife's venting. But... the wife came home "in a funk" again, slopping her negativity about her day all over him, and she didn't TELL him what she needed from him.

 

If BOTH of them had communicated their feelings to the other in a postive way, the negative energy wouldn't have been ramped up and they'd have resolved the initial misunderstanding fairly quickly.

 

It's a generalization, but our men don't like to see us unhappy. It seems to make them feel like they've fallen down on the job somehow. Maybe it's makes them feel a bit ineffectual and helpless... feelings a big, hairy-chested man won't appreciate too much.

 

In our example above, the husband might have even been feeling some anxiety due to his wife needing to work anyway. Seeing her struggle with it, will create more tension for him. Even in this day and age, there are a surprising number of men who secretly agonize over the fact that their salary alone isn't enough to support the family. Guys like that will worry that they're not good enough 'providers'.

 

 

 

Anyway, I don't think the 'damsel in distress' routine is usually premeditated. I think that in adult women it's probably a sign of mental instability when it's present though.

 

For example, the OW who attempted to involve herself in MY marriage definitely was a sickie. She was a person with apparent narcissistic tendancies who NEEDED male validation and would do ANYTHING to get it.

 

My husband was SHOCKED when he realized that he was only the reigning favorite in an entire string of "admirerers".

He had almost thrown his marriage and family dynamic away for NOTHING. I was literally able to predict each of her next moves, including the 'damsel in distress' routine, whereby she comes up with some sort of emergency she needs to talk to him about, and the "let's make him jealous" gambit, where she tips her hand just enough to let him see that he might not be the only bull in the barn.

 

Very juvenile stuff, and when done deliberately... and easily recognized by most women. We were ALL teenagers once, afterall.

[Ladyjane14]

Anyways, she called back several minutes later acting as sweet and kind as could be. She said she was getting ready and would meet me there and she gave me the address. Weird.

 

I see we still have the communication bridge to build back. One of many bridges that have been burn down. This is going to take awhile, isn't it?

 

Yeah, it does take awhile to get the communications problems ironed out. You two started yelling at one another early on in the marriage. That's going to be a hard habit for both of you to break.

 

I do think it's a hopeful sign though that she called you back "sweet and kind" after the argument. It means she caught herself overreacting.

 

As communications improve, recovery time after a spat improves too. And dude.... never think there won't STILL be disagreements from time to time. Better communications doesn't stop any of us from occasionally stepping in sh*t... it only means we smell it quicker and that we have better tools for cleaning it off our shoe.

[Ladyjane14]

So I sent an email to the OW asking for some answers. Hopefully she will be honest with her response.

 

 

There are a couple of things to keep in mind when you hear back from her...

 

One, is that most folks don't like for other people to think ill of them. That's just natural human nature.

 

The other thing is this... We can only be as honest with others as we are with ourselves. Sometimes, we don't KNOW why we feel the way we do. It takes clarity to identify our emotions properly, and we don't always have the clarity we need.

 

 

 

Empty, I can't draw conclusions for you on what exactly your relationship was with this OW. I can give you ideas and help you think outside the box... but that's it.

 

That said, I have my doubts as to whether you or the OW are in a position to draw conclusions either. Like I said, it takes clarity. When we're bound up in our own emotional responses... clarity isn't always easy to find.

 

My suggestion to you would be to take each day as it comes... experiencing it in the PRESENT. If you look through the lens of the past without first clearing up the previous resentments and misunderstandings, that view is tainted. Likewise, looking to the future through the lens of fantasy, allowing wishful thinking to guide you is also going to muck up your process.

 

Put this bug under the microscope and just observe it. See it for what it is, not what you want it to be.

[empty906]

Looks like I am behind again on repsonding to all your posts. If I don't respond to our post don't think it wasn't read and appreciated. Really!

 

I will try and get back to the previous posts later tonight when I get the chance but wanted to post here what the OW's response was while everyone is still awake.

 

 

Instead of emailing me back she called this morning and we talked for a long time. We worked to get some questions answered for me and it was really awkward at first for some reason. I couldn't get my thoughts lined up so I could construct meaningful sentences, I sort of just rambled about until I had said enough that I could go back and reassemble it. I'm sure I sounded like an idiot.

 

Anyway, LJ, you were sort of right about the agenda. It didn't start that way but ended up that way. Turns out that her H has been on the road to rebuilding their M. He wrote her a letter apologizing for all the horrible years and asked her to forgive him. He works out of town and she said he has been calling all the time telling her how much he misses her. He would never do that.

 

Well, that explains why our relationship took a down turn. She told me that she was going to pull back and focus on her M but I didn't know her H had been making the effort. She says things have never been better between them.

 

She apologized to me for some of the things she did and said in our relationship that caused it to develop like it did and get out of hand. She said she never should have done those things.

 

We talked about my M and how it was standing. I told her I was tired of the faking crap that she suggested I try. I told her I still wanted out of the M and that she had showed me that two people can be together and enjoy each other. I told her I wanted that. I want to be married to someone where the relationship is like the one she and I had. She said that isn't possible. No one is married and happy with each other the way we were. It just doesn't work out like that.

 

I told her she had always loved her H and now that he was wanting to participate in the marriage she has gotten what she wanted. Her 'faking' it for so long paid off for her. I asked her if she honestly could tell me that I should fake it for thirty more years or until the faking became a habit or I grew so accustomed to it that I never noticed I was faking. She said yes, but that it wouldn't take thirty years before the change would occur.

 

<sigh> Well, I got my answer. She is totally gone now. She is where she needs to be and I am not wanting to disrupt that for sure. It's just that now I know what I am missing. You know? I know that marriage can be better and that two people can be in love and have fun and genuinely care for one another. And not arrive at that by faking it long enough.

 

She said she would talk with me again later on in the week. We'll see. She said she didn't like that I was out of her life completely and that she still wanted to talk to me. She said she wants me to still call her and to maintain the friendship side of our relationship. Man, I don't know about that. I get all giddy when I'm around her. Why the hell would I want to just torture myself like that? And you know I loved talking with her today, even considering the subject matter at hand.

 

Am I a backup plan? Does she want her cake and eat it, too? "In case of emergency pull here"? That's not the answer I want either.

 

One other thing. She asked if I was wanting to D in hopes that she would also D. She then said something interesting that I hadn't ever heard her say before. She asked who was I going to marry that had would give me a relationship like the one we had? She said you are 32, how many single women do you think are out there your age that have the qualities you are wanting? She said why would I D and then try to find the relationship I was looking for.

 

So is this where she is coming from? Was she too scared to D and then look for someone to take care of her? Maybe she was just trying to help me make a well thought out decision. But my decision to stay isn't because I need a W around. Her decision to stay was because she needs a H around. Apples and oranges.

[dilly]

At least its closure at any rate.

 

I'm like you , I just can't see how being friends can work. Just to keep you all abreast of my situation. My OW just started texting me and talking like nothing ever happened. All these emotions i have for her just competely came flooding back. I had made the decision that I wasn't ever going to contact her again. This just makes it all the more difficult and I am really confused about what i want to do.

 

These past few days have really been good with my W and I really do look at her with renewed passion. However, try as I might, I still can't get the OW out of my mind and like you empty, I feel like I've had a taste of the forbidden fruit and I want more of it. Its going to take time to rebuild my relationship with my W but will it ever be up to the level where i won't want to wander again? I have a feeling that in the presence of more stimulation (another OW) I'd be back to square one again. I think I have a problem with monogamy actually. I just love all women! I think I have an unhealthy amount of libido. Maybe thats my problem...I'll move to Utah...

 

Empty, it seems that you and the OW have an amazing amount of restraint. In the heat of passion if my OW had even hinted she liked me, it would have been game over. Woman are much more pragmatic, we men think with our little heads and thats what gets us in trouble.

 

It all boils down to one thing. Sexually, men just haven't evolved. We see any semblence of a hole and we go for it. Many years later we still have to restrain ourselves from that primalistic thought. Some men are better than others in suppressing that feeling, but you know we all feel it. When an opportunity arises like the OW coming into our lives, how can we not get caught up in that? I think we just have too much of a conscience, you (empty) much more than me. Otherwise, we wouldn't be on this forum..

[Gunny376]

She said you are 32, how many single women do you think are out there your age that have the qualities you are wanting?

 

A lot of women! In their 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's!

[empty906]

I think that they found themselves, years into a marriage the breakdown of which seemed to be irreparable after so much trying and trying, and genuinely fell in love.

 

That's the tough side, OE. For me anyways. I obviously loved my W when I married her or we wouldn't be here right now. But when that love wasn't cared for and died I looked so find it again. I have loved three women: a girl before my wife whose parents hated me, my wife, and this OW. (my W was a rebound off the other girl. We were engaged and were to marry after she finished college. Her parents finally pushed her enough to end everything. I rebounded and quickly got married ten months after I met my wife). As much as I devoted myself to my W until now I find the same devotion being shown to the OW. I would tend to her hand and foot. The love towards my W died a slow death. It was by no means a quick and sudden blow although the sudden blows I mentioned earlier were the final strikes that killed it.

 

So now I have this same love towards another man's wife. And that H has now begun rebuilding that marriage and is doing a good job at it. She needs that. I am left with the task of killing this love and either reviving a love towards my W or moving on find someone to place my affection upon.

 

And I know me, I'll look for that someone. Here is something interesting I learned while on the subject of looking. When things broke of with the OW before Christmas I started looking around at married couples. You wouldn't believe the number of couples who are miserable with each other. I have one male friend who is happily married. The rest aren't at all. And some of those guys cheat on their W and talk with me about it.

 

I was really surprised at how many attractive MW were not happy at home. What is going on? Why aren't people happily married? Is it really that big of a fantasy to be 'in love' with your spouse? It must be.

 

It is very disheartening if all this boils down to a happy marriage being like the lottery. You buy a ticket and hope yours is the winning marriage. One will win, millions will try.

 

...marriages go up and down. That is not the issue. But they do not all end up at this level which we are seeing here of personal tormet and emotional torture. I do not believe, as you put forth in an earlier post, that "the crappiest of marriages" can or should be saved. At that point you are not in a marriage, you are roomates. I think few people should be expected to tolerate that.

 

Roommates. Yep. Today my W calls and wants to go out for Valentine's Day. I say ok and she says that she would arrange it but doesn't know where I want to eat. (My cue to be the H and arrange everything like I used to do) But I don't this time. I tell her that anywhere is fine with me. She wants to eat in a part of town I am not familiar with and I tell her I don't know the restaurant names there so she can just pick whatever.

 

She gets the reservation and calls to tell me when it is. She can tell something is up. I had flowers sent to her office, like always, and she called to tell me they had arrived. She asked if I wanted to come by and see them on my way home. I told her not today, maybe tomorrow. After dinner tonight she looks at me and says, "I love you" with a little bit of question at the end. I say, 'I love you, too' and continue to work. Before she went to bed she said it again. Twice in one day? I said it back and she just looked at me. I said I would come lay by her and she said to just keep working since we would see each other tomorrow for dinner.

 

I think she can sense things aren't right. At one point tonight I walked into the bedroom and she was there. She asked me if I was happy and I said no. But that is all that was said.

 

I just don't want to make myself love her. Or maybe it is I don't want to allow it. I don't know anymore. Too many emotions screwing with my mind to sort things out and make a good decision right now.

 

Today when the OW and I talked she asked me when I was going to D my W. I told her I have no clue when it would be. I hate not having a course laid out, a plan of action to follow. I am making progress but the checkpoints are not showing up I was expecting them to be. The OW has clarified alot for me but it still doesn't help with my W and I.

 

Yes, I absolutely maintain that love is a constant. Real love does not come and go. We have all seen the older couples who still have that "glow". The man who still reveres his wife like the girl he married so many decades earlier. True, passion gets buried, niceties forgotten, etc but love does not. Love is an exalted form of appreciation, of respect. And you do not go around treating someone like hell--emotional abuse, physical distance--and then pop up and say "Oh, yeah I love him". Nonsense.

 

That's the love I want. You ever watch '50 First Dates'? With Adam Sandler and Drew Barrymore? Part of that movie is EXACTLY what I want. They meet and he falls for her instantly. But she has a head injury that causes her to wake up thinking it is the same day over and over. No new memories. The part that got me was when they are on the beach with some friends and a friend asks Drew Barrymore, "So you wake up every morning not knowing who he is and he makes you fall in love with him all over again everyday?" That stuck with me. So when I met the OW I made it a point to make her fall in love with me everyday. Everyday I did something special. And it worked. (And, no, I don't want to try it with my W. You have to love the person first )

 

My point is that I want that love you mentioned, OE. I want that grow old together kinda love. It doesn't have to be Hollywood-love, not fairytale style. The kind of love like OE was saying that you see in people. They have it. Do they have to fake it? Are they faking when we see them interacting? There's no way that is true. I think they have found the one the want to be with forever and just enjoy being together.

[empty906]

Empty once you start to see things in a different light then you get a new script of all kinds of questions that you have to answer & you have more questions then answers, but hopefully as time goes you will start to be able to sort things out.

 

That is exaclty what I am seeing right now. I focus on one problem area only to see it isn't a cut and dry solution. The answer cannot come about without several new questions being answered and dealt with.

 

If I would move quickly I'd just D her and walk away. But I want to do a better job than that. And like a couple of you have said already, I will be able to say I did everything I could.

[dilly]

Sorry, did i say closure. You have even more questions now..

 

She then said something interesting that I hadn't ever heard her say before. She asked who was I going to marry that had would give me a relationship like the one we had? She said you are 32, how many single women do you think are out there your age that have the qualities you are wanting? She said why would I D and then try to find the relationship I was looking for.

 

Okay, 2 scenerios her:

 

I think she's playing devils advocate and talking herself though every scenerio to see if it makes sense to her. She wants to find a good reason to leave her M and be with you.

 

or two. She is just rubbing salt into your wounds since you know you can't have her. LOL! I really doubt this!

 

So is this where she is coming from? Was she too scared to D and then look for someone to take care of her? Maybe she was just trying to help me make a well thought out decision. But my decision to stay isn't because I need a W around. Her decision to stay was because she needs a H around. Apples and oranges.

 

I think she wants for you to make the first move..

 

She really has strong feelings for you no doubt in my mind. Its just shes really scared about what she wants to do.

[dilly]

That's the love I want. You ever watch '50 First Dates'? With Adam Sandler and Drew Barrymore? Part of that movie is EXACTLY what I want. They meet and he falls for her instantly. But she has a head injury that causes her to wake up thinking it is the same day over and over. No new memories. The part that got me was when they are on the beach with some friends and a friend asks Drew Barrymore, "So you wake up every morning not knowing who he is and he makes you fall in love with him all over again everyday?" That stuck with me. So when I met the OW I made it a point to make her fall in love with me everyday. Everyday I did something special. And it worked. (And, no, I don't want to try it with my W. You have to love the person first

 

HAHA, I love that movie! you and me empty, we're just a couple of hopeless romantics!

[dilly]

When things broke of with the OW before Christmas I started looking around at married couples. You wouldn't believe the number of couples who are miserable with each other. I have one male friend who is happily married. The rest aren't at all. And some of those guys cheat on their W and talk with me about it.

 

Exactly! When I first got married, I thought mine was the only disfunctional one. Many of my friends seemed to have pretty happy marriages. There's of course the couple that absolutely adored each other until it made you sick and you thought they would be together forever. Well, after really looking, many marriages were superficial on the outside and strugging on the inside. Even that perfect couple, have it just as bad.

 

Moral of the story....MM are all the same! Stuck in the middle of the bell curve.

[CaliGuy]

She said she would talk with me again later on in the week. We'll see. She said she didn't like that I was out of her life completely and that she still wanted to talk to me. She said she wants me to still call her and to maintain the friendship side of our relationship. Man, I don't know about that. I get all giddy when I'm around her. Why the hell would I want to just torture myself like that? And you know I loved talking with her today, even considering the subject matter at hand.

 

Am I a backup plan? Does she want her cake and eat it, too? "In case of emergency pull here"? That's not the answer I want either.

 

You need to break off the friendship with her completely. As long as you maintain a friendship with her your marriage has zero chance of working.

[empty906]

Sorry, did i say closure. You have even more questions now..

 

Hey, I thought closure too but I am not to sure what closed.

 

Okay, 2 scenerios her:

 

I think she's playing devils advocate and talking herself though every scenerio to see if it makes sense to her. She wants to find a good reason to leave her M and be with you.

 

or two. She is just rubbing salt into your wounds since you know you can't have her. LOL! I really doubt this!

 

She has to stay with him. Really. And I know this, I even talked with you about it before. She is in a very difficult marriage and is literally trapped. And for some freakin' reason I am alright with it and was willing to wait until things were clear. My choice completely.

 

I seriously am glad she is happy at her house. He is psycho. If he has really had a heart change then she definitely deserves a break!

 

I say that to say, "but she can't leave. She and I talked about this and talked about it. I told her there are no other solutions except to stay." Why would she feel she would have to string me along? She knows I wasn't planning on going anywhere. We were open about that.

 

I think she wants for you to make the first move..

 

She really has strong feelings for you no doubt in my mind. Its just shes really scared about what she wants to do.

 

She said she would talk with me later this week. I may see if she will meet me somewhere and we can delve deeper into what she is thinking. Women are so difficult. Man! Why do they have to be so complex and skillful at screwing with our heads?!?

[empty906]

You need to break off the friendship with her completely. As long as you maintain a friendship with her your marriage has zero chance of working.

 

I know exactly what you are saying, Caliguy. I don't see the OW having such a direct impact on my M as I once did. I know I made the decision to D because of conversations with her but it wasn't to leave and then be with her. But I know what you are saying about her friendship running tandem with my M. I agree. Both being there will create an unbalance.

 

To be honest and real with you, at this point I am satisfied not having either. The OW has her stuff to work out and my W and I just aren't meshing. I'd take the walk if my boy would still be in the same city with me.

 

I have been toying with the idea of a seperation today. A couple we are friends with did that and it seemed to have helped the guy. They stayed apart for a couple of months.

 

I ran the idea by my W awhile back and she said that if two people were to seperate then they should go ahead and D.

[dilly]

You need to break off the friendship with her completely. As long as you maintain a friendship with her your marriage has zero chance of working.

 

I know i can pretty much speak for empty.

 

We both know this .

 

Its just gonna take time for our head to catch up with our hearts you know what i mean?

[dilly]

You beat my post by a couple of min...HAHA

 

I have been toying with the idea of a seperation today. A couple we are friends with did that and it seemed to have helped the guy. They stayed apart for a couple of months.

 

I've thought about the same thing as well. I've tried countless of times to separate, the longest being 3 days. Never really did it. I told myself that next big blowup from her and I'm out of here. I think it would have really shown her how drastically her life would be without me. Of course, now she is trying and I'm just trying to find that love again. I'm still digging really deep. Really, really, really, deep!

[dilly]

I think one reason I haven't yet divorced is because I was scared about being alone and possibly not finding someone that loved me. Check out the dating scene these days, or even check out the dating forum here on LS. It scares the living bajeebers out of me!

 

So then this OW came along, bam, someone that I loved and perhaps loved me as well. I would have left my marriage if she felt the same way, I don't doubt it.

[mum2three]

To be honest, it sounds like you are not in the M. It sounds like you already checked out and it's a matter of your physical being out the door. Your OW leaving is a reality check but it still doesn't bring closure for your own happiness. If you W knew how connected you feel to the OW, I am sure that your M will take a stance in a certain direction. Feeling insecure about what's out there is not a good excuse to stay b/c your W feels your withdrawal from the relationship and is probably very lonely.

 

What if your W was reading your posts at LS? How do you think she would react? Do you think she would try to save the M? You sound pretty honest about your feelings here so maybe it's time to fess up.

[dilly]

My story pretty much parallels Empty. I really do want to try with my wife and even though its been alot better lately, there is just something thats not making me completely happy. Perhaps its just the years of grime accumulating that i need to clean off. Who knows. I know at one point I did consider separation and now having met this OW tells me that someone else and not necessarily this OW can make me happy.

 

Honestly, I'm just really confused and sorting out these issues. I'm still lingering in the lobby...I haven't completely checked out.

[dilly]

What if your W was reading your posts at LS? How do you think she would react? Do you think she would try to save the M? You sound pretty honest about your feelings here so maybe it's time to fess up.

I've been fessing up since I started posting here...

 

I almost want her to find out. I want her to see how withdrawn i have become after years of bickering and control. I Don't know if you've followed my post in the friendship forum but my W is the one that wouldn't meet me in the middle. I've tried I really have. Now after what happened with my OW and posting here on LS, I had a change of heart and I thought i wanted to really patch things up with my marriage. Just my change of attitude has done wonders for my marriage, but its still not good enough in my wifes eyes. She still wont go back to MC, or entertain the idea of seeing a psychiatrist. (Not to rehash my story, but the MC, suggested she go to see a psychiatrist and perhaps try some medication) I said, whats the worst that can happen, you at least try right. She just won't do it.

 

I wish my wife would read LS, that way she would know how bad it was for me and really take the steps to better our marriage. i mean look, I'm spilling my guts to a bunch of people on the Internet. I mean how desperate is that?

[dilly]

I ran the idea by my W awhile back and she said that if two people were to seperate then they should go ahead and D.

 

My wife said the exact same thing.

 

So empty, I really don't think there was a hidden agenda with the OW. She is just as confused as you are with being with her husband and being with you. I do think that once you take the step in separation and if that does end in divorce than she would reevaluate her situation as well. You two might still be together. In anycase, you'll still find the one that "completes you".

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see you work out things with your wife, but sometimes there is just too much junk in the attic.