TheDC Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Yes… we…. His creations; can change His mind through prayer or not. Example…. Ezekiel 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Ezekiel 18:30 Why would god tell you he was going to judge you since he already knows the outcome of your actions. If he gave us free will and doesn't know the outcome of our actions or whether we will repent or not then he can't be all knowing. Also Saved; we have changed Gods mind about us for example; He use to think and call me a Bastard… and according to His Law…I was. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Hebrews 12:8 I changed His mind about myself, I took a step to Salvation in the Lord.. I changed the way God thinks…about me… Now He calls me one of His own…one of His sons. YES ….MEN ON EARTH HAVE THE ABILITY TO CHANGE GODS MIND… WHY? BECAUSE HE IS THE TRUE… LIVING… GOD. But he would have known that you were going to take steps to salvation and wouldn't have any need to change his mind. ---[Can god change his mind? If the answer is yes then he isn't all knowing he should have known the outcome ahead of time and would have had no need to change his mind and therefore can't exist.] Listen to the man try to make a puppet out of God whom has not made a puppet out of men… If our prayers had no effect on God… to change His mind… then lets worship stones… what would the diff be? Answer:Both useless… Exactly you might as well worship stones, or perhaps the flying spaghetti monster for all the good it will do you. If you can't change his mind because he already knows the future then what's the point of prayer and if you can then he obviously isn't omniscient and can't possibly exist. [if the answer is no then he can't be all powerful since he should have the power to change an outcome that is of his own making and therefore can't exist.] Answer:Freewill... On one hand you desire a True Living God to be able to be persuaded to change His mind. Yet if He does … He is failure… Through seeking discernment; you have left out two major factors. 1) God rules over His Creations… They do not rule Him. 2) God gave men freewill. How can he both rule us and not have control over us because we have free will. So are you saying that because he gave us free will he has no control over our actions nor does he know what we are going to do? Then he can't possibly be omniscient. Link to post Share on other sites
Love Hurts Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Thanks, LoveHurts You have many sisters and brothers Lonelybird; as we are part of family that is larger than I can imagine. Your Sister in Christ… God Bless* Link to post Share on other sites
Love Hurts Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 The DC...I want to try to show you God and Predestingation. He has the foreknowledge of... God knows the beginning from the end...PREDESTINATION PREDESTINATION SOUNDS CRUEL… FOR THOSE THAT DO NOT UNDERSTAND…IT… I HAVE A FEW NOTES ON IT. Are you Familiar with Calvinism...? www.bible.ca/calvinism.htm < LIES! 5 Point Calvinism Refuted MAIN HOMEPAGE There are 5 major points of Calvinism. These 5 points are known by the acronym: T.U.L.I.P. **None... of the 5 point are taught in the Bible.** ITS BASICALLY TOTAL DEPRAVITY – NOT EVERYONE IS … UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION ... PREDESTINATION TAKES PLACE BEFORE THE WORLD WAS CREATED… God looks down and sees all that would ever live here. Acts 15:18 and he says I choose you for Heaven and you for Hell… Heaven… Hell… Heaven… Hell… Not everyone is depraved…but everyone has the inability to save himself. Unconditional election there fore only some are saved.. There is a limited atonement he dint die for everybody. He just died for those that are…… I Tim. 2:5-6 Ransom for all. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Rev. 22: 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And Whosoever Will let him take the water of life freely. Is atonement limited? Calvinism – T.U.L.I.P. *TOTAL DEPRAVITY *UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION *LIMITED ATONEMENT *IRRESISTIBLE GRACE *PERSEVERANCE THIS GROUP CAN NOT RESIST THIS CALLING………<NOTE>... MAN MADE TEACHINGS. In Christian Reform Magazines…… The Banner has a Q/A section; How can I know I’m predestinated from the beginning of the world? Answer…… ‘At the end you have persevered’…… (That’s works) Rom.1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is rein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. We are not to believe it is by works that save… but by justification of Faith Alone. In 1999 the Catholic Church met with the world Lutheran federation to make some changes to Calvinism’s T.U.L.I.P. *Maybe the fifth point could be changed to Preservation instead of perseverance. _____________________________________ God is omission……God knows everything. What kind of God do we have? Is there such a s thing as predestination…… Yes… Before we were born God knew what we would do. He has the foreknowledge of …… God knows the beginning from the end. Ephesians 1: 4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will ELECT OR PREDESTINATED ACCORDING TO FOREKNOWLEDGE … NOT PREDIGEST… NOT BIGOTED… NOT BIAS… SAYING YOU ARE MADE FOR HELL... YOU ARE MADE FOR HEAVEN…… DON’T EVER THINK GOD MADE ONE OF US FOR THE PLEASURE OF SENDING US TO HELL… HE FOREKNEW WHAT CHOICE… WE... WOULD MAKE. AS CHRIST LOOKED AHEAD.. AND FOREKNEW... WHAT WE WOULD DO… HE CAME TO SAVE US… Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth Link to post Share on other sites
Love Hurts Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Why would god tell you he was going to judge you since he already knows the outcome of your actions. If he gave us free will and doesn't know the outcome of our actions or whether we will repent or not then he can't be all knowing. But he would have known that you were going to take steps to salvation and wouldn't have any need to change his mind. Exactly you might as well worship stones, or perhaps the flying spaghetti monster for all the good it will do you. If you can't change his mind because he already knows the future then what's the point of prayer and if you can then he obviously isn't omniscient and can't possibly exist. How can he both rule us and not have control over us because we have free will. So are you saying that because he gave us free will he has no control over our actions nor does he know what we are going to do? Then he can't possibly be omniscient. DC… Work with me in this drama... Did you see the movie … Indecent Proposal? Robert Redford and Demie Moore … The offer is given by lets say …Satan to a happily married couple. He offers a Million dollars to the couple… for one night with the mans wife. Now lets look at God… God already knows what the couple in question will do in response to this proposal… Obviously the couple has free will they ponder it … they cant sleep over it, they talk it over and try to cover all the pros and cons of it. They finally make a freewill decision … to take the million dollars … step out of the vows of marriage and after all they trust and love one another and its only for one night. In real life outside of my Hollywood Movie Scenario… GOD KNOWS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN BEFORE WE DO IT. Now how does God rule us? Well He made rules.. We cant see them… but they are there just the same. He said for the Wages of Sin is Death. If you saw the movie… The couple paid accordingly… Death to a beautiful loving relationship that was, Death to a Marriage. They did pay in many ways for sin. None of us gets away without punishment… we cant see it... but just the same its there… Oh we may think we do for a time… but it catches up sooner or later. Plus we pay in the after life… There is no escape from God.. What you need to see in all this is: 1) God gave rules… Ten Commandments show us. 2) Freewill 3) For the wages of sin is death. God has the master plan, men have freewill, Satan plays havoc. And Freewill takes the final curtain. Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Could someone please show me credible or empirical proof that there is a god and no, the bible is neither credible or empirical. Link to post Share on other sites
magichands Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Could someone please show me credible or empirical proof that there is a god and no, the bible is neither credible or empirical. Those weapons of mass destruction were there, dammit!! Chinese whispers my arse. Oh. Whoops. Sorry. Wrong thread. Link to post Share on other sites
blind_otter Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Could someone please show me credible or empirical proof that there is a god and no, the bible is neither credible or empirical. Why? If you don't believe it doesn't matter, and if you do you don't need proof. I'm just sayin'. Link to post Share on other sites
magichands Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Why? If you don't believe it doesn't matter, and if you do you don't need proof. I'm just sayin'. That one just blew up in my face. Excellent. Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Why? If you don't believe it doesn't matter, and if you do you don't need proof. I'm just sayin'. Well I think it matters... when someone who believes, tries to change what is in my Biology text book to appease their unfounded beliefs... Or tries to manipulate public policy in harmful way through their beliefs, for example not funding condoms as part of an anti-HIV program. Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Because when God made us, there is a place in our heart to fill the Spirit from God, when we aren't filled with it, we feel not satisfied. san augie quote ... Why would god tell you he was going to judge you since he already knows the outcome of your actions … So are you saying that because he gave us free will he has no control over our actions nor does he know what we are going to do? Then he can't possibly be omniscient. it’s not about God knowing our actions before we do, but about how we choose to execute our free will and how that affects our relationship with him. God loves us, always has and always will, and is every hopeful that we come to him willingly. Which is why he is always willing to hear our cries and petitions, even when we think we’ve done something so horrible that the relationship just can’t be mended – forgiveness and reconciliation are part of loving someone. Could someone please show me credible or empirical proof that there is a god living creatures. We know that among mammals, a sperm and an egg combine to create a zygote. Cells divide to increase tissue to create that particular infant mammal; each cell has its own blueprint to follow as it becomes specialized. But how does it know? Where does direction come from? Yes, DNA, but where does that originate? a poor analogy is that of the computer. It can do many incredible things, thanks to software programs that direct particular actions. But those programs didn’t just pop out, they have to be created by someone who understands the particulars of a program, someone who has superior knowledge that creates a good working product. man cannot create man – or other creatures, be they plant or animal*– from scratch, he can only clone or duplicate or breed those creatures into existence. There’s only one blueprint for each critter, and those surely must be held by a Superior Being who created them. Link to post Share on other sites
blind_otter Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Well I think it matters... when someone who believes, tries to change what is in my Biology text book to appease their unfounded beliefs... Or tries to manipulate public policy in harmful way through their beliefs, for example not funding condoms as part of an anti-HIV program. That's not really God. That's the christian church. Two different things entirely. Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Well I think it matters... when someone who believes, tries to change what is in my Biology text book to appease their unfounded beliefs... Or tries to manipulate public policy in harmful way through their beliefs, for example not funding condoms as part of an anti-HIV program. isn't education about exposing all kinds of ideas and information to people? Just because a theory or belief is religious in nature doesn't mean it should automatically be excluded from the pool of information, because when you do that, you're robbing people of the capability to make a fully informed decision. condoms and AIDS: Biologically speaking, yes, it's an ideal and practical pairing, but morally speaking, emphasis is on abstinence, which condoms do not promote – they encourage sexual activity because the very act of sex becomes less about the bond of two people in a committed relationship like marriage and more about getting your rocks off. my other thought is that if you're old enough to make the decision to engage in sexual activity, then you're old enough to inform yourself about STDs and AIDS as well as procure condoms yourself, not expect the government to give handouts! Link to post Share on other sites
Love Hurts Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Could someone please show me credible or empirical proof that there is a god and no, the bible is neither credible or empirical. There is none... its a leap of Faith lovelorcet. Link to post Share on other sites
Love Hurts Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Those weapons of mass destruction were there, dammit!! Chinese whispers my arse. Oh. Whoops. Sorry. Wrong thread. We all have our point of view. Link to post Share on other sites
TheDC Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Now lets look at God… God already knows what the couple in question will do in response to this proposal… Obviously the couple has free will they ponder it … they cant sleep over it, they talk it over and try to cover all the pros and cons of it. Well that's a contradictory statement. The couple can ponder all they want but in the end they will do what was predestined for them. If god is omnipotent and according to you has a "master plan" and knows what they will do in the future then they have no choice and thus no free will. Furthermore, why would a benevolent god, knowing that satan will try to tempt them, and also knowing that they will succumb to this temptation allow such a thing to happen? If he is incapable of changing things then he obviously can't exist, or if he didn't know the possible outcome then he can't exist or perhaps god and satan are just fairy tales and are no more real than Zeus, or Thor or any other superstition. You wouldn't argue and most rational people wouldn't disagree that Odin is just an old superstition and doesn't really exist. So we really aren't that far apart I have simply added one more god to my list of superstitions. You have no more "evidence" for god's existence than you do to prove that Ra exists. Now how does God rule us? Well He made rules.. We cant see them… but they are there just the same. Well isn't that convenient, there are rules, you have no evidence to back up that claim and no way to test these rules but you claim that they exist because of some a priori argument based on the claim that your god also exists. I also postulate that there is a teacup on a saucer that orbits our planet and it creates our rules. You can't see it but it is there just the same and you may not believe but that's what faith is for. He said for the Wages of Sin is Death. If you saw the movie… The couple paid accordingly… Death to a beautiful loving relationship that was, Death to a Marriage. They did pay in many ways for sin. None of us gets away without punishment… we cant see it... but just the same its there… Oh we may think we do for a time… but it catches up sooner or later. Plus we pay in the after life… There is no escape from God.. What you need to see in all this is: 1) God gave rules… Ten Commandments show us. 2) Freewill 3) For the wages of sin is death. God has the master plan, men have freewill, Satan plays havoc. And Freewill takes the final curtain. If god, as you claim, has a plan then we can't possibly have free will since he already put everything into motion and we are predestined since he already knows the outcome of our actions. Your "evidence" contradicts itself, you can't have an all knowing god who doesn't know the outcome of our actions because of free will. The paucity of evidence from the faithful can only lead one to conclude that there is no god. And scripture is quite possibly the best evidence for god's non-existence since it so regularly contradicts itself. Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Could someone please show me credible or empirical proof that there is a god living creatures. We know that among mammals, a sperm and an egg combine to create a zygote. Cells divide to increase tissue to create that particular infant mammal; each cell has its own blueprint to follow as it becomes specialized. But how does it know? Where does direction come from? Yes, DNA, but where does that originate? a poor analogy is that of the computer. It can do many incredible things, thanks to software programs that direct particular actions. But those programs didn’t just pop out, they have to be created by someone who understands the particulars of a program, someone who has superior knowledge that creates a good working product. man cannot create man – or other creatures, be they plant or animal*– from scratch, he can only clone or duplicate or breed those creatures into existence. There’s only one blueprint for each critter, and those surely must be held by a Superior Being who created them. This is by no means proof of god, this is only a description of our surroundings. And your point about the condoms is bunk and dead wrong. Do you have any idea how much the US government has messed around with funding of AIDS programs in Africa based on morals that those people do not even share. But yes to be honest my problem is more with an organized church or groups of religious people how feel it is their job to set a standard for morals or policies base on beliefs which are completely unfounded. Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 isn't education about exposing all kinds of ideas and information to people? Just because a theory or belief is religious in nature doesn't mean it should automatically be excluded from the pool of information, because when you do that, you're robbing people of the capability to make a fully informed decision. There is a huge difference between a theory and a belief so no, they do not belong in the same place of an education. Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 there can be no "proof" to offer to someone who insists on an answer yet chooses to listen with closed ears and mind. What works for me surely cannot work for you, simply because one of us is willing to consider a leap of faith when it comes to this supernatural relationship. the US government has messed around with funding of AIDS programs in Africa based on morals that those people do not even share. if those people aren't inline with said morals, then why should we even bother with any sort of responsibility? Helping them forces our moral values on them, making them recipient of an action based in something they don't believe in. So, morally speaking, our government really has no business even getting involved with their problems, simply because they don't believe as we do. Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 There is a huge difference between a theory and a belief so, no, they do not belong in the same place of an education. both are information to which people ought to have access to, otherwise what good is the education? It's like saying it's okay to burn books for the good of everyone, simply because someone finds fault with the content. Why shouldn't the individual decide if it's literature he wants to read, based on his merit? Link to post Share on other sites
Love Hurts Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 The DC [Well that's a contradictory statement. The couple can ponder all they want but in the end they will do what was predestined for them.] That’s Calvinism … not scripture. [if god is omnipotent and according to you has a "master plan" and knows what they will do in the future then they have no choice and thus no free will.] God knowing what we are going to do before we do it… does not mean His knowledge of; changes what we do. [Furthermore, why would a benevolent god, knowing that satan will try to tempt them, and also knowing that they will succumb to this temptation allow such a thing to happen?] This is the good and bad part… God does not make us to simply bow down and worship Him. Our hearts must lead us to our own destiny. Life as well as a joy lived is kinda like a testing ground at the same time. [if he is incapable of changing things then he obviously can't exist, or if he didn't know the possible outcome then he can't exist or perhaps god and satan are just fairy tales and are no more real than Zeus, or Thor or any other superstition.] We all would like God to change many things in this world. But Heaven on earth at this time is not the plan. [You wouldn't argue and most rational people wouldn't disagree that Odin is just an old superstition and doesn't really exist. So we really aren't that far apart I have simply added one more god to my list of superstitions. You have no more "evidence" for god's existence than you do to prove that Ra exists.] As for proving the existence of God… I know that place… I have been around the world and back trying to explain the existence of God… and in the end.. To one who does not see… all I can tell you is it’s a leap of faith. [Well isn't that convenient, there are rules, you have no evidence to back up that claim and no way to test these rules but you claim that they exist because of some a priori argument based on the claim that your god also exists.] You can’t see the rule... Yet there is one. There is an unseen rule that adamantly states … if you put in your hand in fire you will get burned. There it is some unseen rule or law that says … if you do:this will. There is the unseen law or rule of gravity… what goes up must come down. You can’t see it… but the rule exists. God has rules or laws to follow we cannot see them but they are their. [i also postulate that there is a teacup on a saucer that orbits our planet and it creates our rules. You can't see it but it is there just the same and you may not believe but that's what faith is for.If god, as you claim, has a plan then we can't possibly have free will since he already put everything into motion and we are predestined since he already knows the outcome of our actions. ] You seem to be disturbed that God knows what you will do before you do it. [Your "evidence" contradicts itself, you can't have an all knowing god who doesn't know the outcome of our actions because of free will. The paucity of evidence from the faithful can only lead one to conclude that there is no god. And scripture is quite possibly the best evidence for god's non-existence since it so regularly contradicts itself.] Does scripture contradict itself or does man contradict scripture? Link to post Share on other sites
TheDC Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 God knowing what we are going to do before we do it… does not mean His knowledge of; changes what we do. In fact he has no ability to change what we do since he doesn't exist at all. God does not make us to simply bow down and worship Him. No I'm pretty sure that in your scripture you'll be able to find a couple of passages about how we are supposed to bow down and worship him. To claim otherwise simply ignores even your own teachings. We all would like God to change many things in this world. But Heaven on earth at this time is not the plan. So prayer has no efficacy? If his plan is set in stone and even he can't change it then he can't be all powerful and you have proved my point. As for proving the existence of God… I know that place… I have been around the world and back trying to explain the existence of God… and in the end.. To one who does not see… all I can tell you is it’s a leap of faith. So you admit that there is no empirical evidence to prove that god exists. The in a rational world the only logical conclusion to draw is that he doesn't exist. One could make the exact same claim for Santa Claus or any other mythical figure. Just because you wish and believe it is so doesn't make it any more real. You can’t see the rule... Yet there is one. There is an unseen rule that adamantly states … if you put in your hand in fire you will get burned. There it is some unseen rule or law that says … if you do:this will. There is the unseen law or rule of gravity… what goes up must come down. You can’t see it… but the rule exists. God has rules or laws to follow we cannot see them but they are their. Well this is a vacuous argument. The laws of gravity or thermodynamics can be seen and proved. They can be tested, verified and quantified. They have evidence to back them up. This is the nature of the scientific method. Your theory has none of this and to claim that they are of the same ilk not only shows a fundamental ignorance of the scientific method, it is downright insulting. Just because you say it is a rule doesn't put it in the same class as the rules that govern natural phenomenon. You seem to be disturbed that God knows what you will do before you do it. Not in the least because I know there is no such thing as god. I would be as equally unimpressed had you said that Isis knew what I was going to do. Does scripture contradict itself or does man contradict scripture? Nope, it's scripture that contradicts itself. Which I find odd because this is supposed to be the inerrant word of god. But then if you are to tell me that since it is written by man and will contain flaws then how is one to know what is genuine and what is flawed. In fact isn't it most likely that it is all flawed since it is the imaginings of man. It is superstition handed down for generations and has no more validity or reality than Aesop's fables. Link to post Share on other sites
magichands Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 The laws of gravity or thermodynamics can be seen and proved. Ever heard of the Theory of Relativity? It's very much a work in progress. Nothing has been proven, and this reflects your ignorance. Link to post Share on other sites
TheDC Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Ever heard of the Theory of Relativity? It's very much a work in progress. Nothing has been proven, and this reflects your ignorance. Are you f*cking kidding? Work in progress, just about all of it has been proven and through empirical study at that. Gravitational lensing, doppler shifting, time dilation, you heard of any of these things? They have all been proven with repeatable scientific studies. If you are going to bring up something like general relativity then you had better know a thing or two about it before talking smack because it just makes you look like an idiot. General relativity is very well understood and just about all of the predictions that Einstein made have been confirmed. There is a damn sight more evidence to support general relativity than there is to prove that god exists. They aren't even in the same realm, general relativity talks about the physical universe and is about reality, and the bible is about the fairy tale world of superstition and fantasy. To say that they occupy the same space and have equal proofs is beyond ignorant it is an outright lie, a complete fabrication. Link to post Share on other sites
magichands Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Are you f*cking kidding? Work in progress, just about all of it has been proven You are totally misusing the word "proof." The data collected so far supports the theory, that's all. Far, far, far from proof. Nothing of the sort. Link to post Share on other sites
Author lonelybird Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 Are you f*cking kidding? Work in progress, just about all of it has been proven and through empirical study at that. Gravitational lensing, doppler shifting, time dilation, you heard of any of these things? They have all been proven with repeatable scientific studies. If you are going to bring up something like general relativity then you had better know a thing or two about it before talking smack because it just makes you look like an idiot. General relativity is very well understood and just about all of the predictions that Einstein made have been confirmed. There is a damn sight more evidence to support general relativity than there is to prove that god exists. They aren't even in the same realm, general relativity talks about the physical universe and is about reality, and the bible is about the fairy tale world of superstition and fantasy. To say that they occupy the same space and have equal proofs is beyond ignorant it is an outright lie, a complete fabrication. Hi, TheDC I am weak in Science and chemical, i must say. and I agree scientists did really excellent job to help us to understand the world around us. but based on my rough understanding, science only proved phenomenon, can you tell me HOW the gravity get there? what created gravity? did any scientist creat gravity so far? science seems like blindman touch elephant. there are 7 blindmen to touch elephant at different parts. and none of them have same opion about what elephant is. but if you combine them, then probably will get more clear picture. Can scientists prove what chemical elements love consist of through experiment? Link to post Share on other sites
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