magichands Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 That assumes that you start with the purpose of making a wedding band, though. I don't understand it, but I hear people raving on about it all the time. I wish they'd just shut up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence Link to post Share on other sites
milvushina Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Just like the purpose of inorganic matter being created seems to be with the purpose to make life right? If you like. In my opinion inorganic matter just happened to go through some processes that resulted in life, and it wasn't pre-planned. Why is that what I think? Well, it just seems like since the only thing we can do is assume one way or the other, it's a safer assumption that there isn't some big intelligent force "out there" that created everything. To other people it makes more sense to assume that there was, obviously. But I don't think you can look at the evidence (ie. the world today) and say it really leans one way or the other. IMO Magichands: Woah, I have never heard of "emergence". Thank you for the interesting link, I'll read it. You love you some wikipedia, huh? Link to post Share on other sites
a4a Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 That explains the avatar. Not that I judge people on their looks...it's the goddamn disposition!! Oh I am touched..... actually I am. Often, unlike many lonely stalkers they only touch themselves:lmao: . So Fun what is your theory...... I mean you can come up with your own. Is it the God thing, the FSM, the creator is Alphas nutsack..... (which cloning from that explains my whole gay gene thing) Curious to know your theory at this time since you ask others theirs. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Fun2BMe Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share Posted November 10, 2006 Curious to know your theory at this time since you ask others theirs. Well a4a, I am still trying to decide. One minute I feel deeply religious, the next only spiritual and the next I feel like everything exists out of an accident with no purpose. I've gone through periods where I'd believe in a certain theory let's say for several years at a time but recently I am in a total state of confusion, jumping from one to the other without deeply having a belief, not enough to label myself as an atheist or religious. I think it has been sparked by my recent path to convert from one religion to another. I begin to question everything I am studying, and at the same time am reading scientific books. On the one hand I feel extremely confused but on the other, the more I learn the more hope I have that one day I will firmly believe in something to give me peace of mind.To add to the mix, I also read about past life experiences and stuff like that, combined with my own 'spiritual' experiences and so to sum up, I am still trying to make up my mind about things. But the more I do, we have to all admit that all of this had to have come from somewhere that set the ball rolling. The question is from where and I still don't know but it helps to talk about it. If there really is no purpose and everything was accidentally made, then I wonder what the point to live is, instead of a mass suicide of the world. Link to post Share on other sites
a4a Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Fun everyone asks that question. Why get up in the morning...... why bother, purpose? Well my answer is .................................................... to enjoy yourself. Laugh so hard you pee your pants...... Life is meant to be pants pissin' fun. Anything else well...... it does not make a whole lot of sense to get up for. Well chocolate. That counts too. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Fun2BMe Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share Posted November 10, 2006 Fun everyone asks that question. Why get up in the morning...... why bother, purpose? Well my answer is .................................................... to enjoy yourself. Laugh so hard you pee your pants...... Life is meant to be pants pissin' fun. Anything else well...... it does not make a whole lot of sense to get up for. Well chocolate. That counts too. Well so many people say the purpose is to have fun or to be happy or to love. But those are things that can't be planned. You can plan a fun, loving, happy trip that could turn disasterous with a miserable break up. There's just as much chance you'll fall in love with someone you never thought was your type as there is with your 'type.' So basically, it doesn't make too much sense to me to say the meaning is for this or that, but it seems all so meaningless and pointless. Everything is an unplanned biproduct or side effect that we then have to adapt and deal with. It feels like we're designed to finally realize this and self destruct I am wondering, especially on the larger scale if you look at all the weapons the countries around the world are making in mass with the intent to kill ourselves and each other. Maybe life was created by a designer with a sick plan in store for us. Maybe life was created randomly out of the blue even though science says there are no coincidences, so why was it a coincidence that the conditions to support and create life were there and just right other than to conclude that it was with an intention to do so. Link to post Share on other sites
a4a Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Well so many people say the purpose is to have fun or to be happy or to love. But those are things that can't be planned. You can plan a fun, loving, happy trip that could turn disasterous with a miserable break up. There's just as much chance you'll fall in love with someone you never thought was your type as there is with your 'type.' So basically, it doesn't make too much sense to me to say the meaning is for this or that, but it seems all so meaningless and pointless. Everything is an unplanned biproduct or side effect that we then have to adapt and deal with. It feels like we're designed to finally realize this and self destruct I am wondering, especially on the larger scale if you look at all the weapons the countries around the world are making in mass with the intent to kill ourselves and each other. Maybe life was created by a designer with a sick plan in store for us. Maybe life was created randomly out of the blue even though science says there are no coincidences, so why was it a coincidence that the conditions to support and create life were there and just right other than to conclude that it was with an intention to do so. No you have control of things by the way you choose to see them. You can plan fun, and if shyte happens still find a way to have fun. And if every freakin day was fantastic then fantastic would be ordinary. The worst days make the good ones seem all that much more wonderful. Maybe if the big poopheads with their nukie nukes thought a little bit more about making it a good day, choosing to make things a little brighter they would not be such pissheads trying to kill each other. As for a plan or why...... I don't care..... I am here and while I am here I am going to make the best of it. Maybe you could try that and see if things don't become a little clearer for you. Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 F2BM, I agree with your statement that God is behind science. For example, God uses sex to make babies. It only takes a man and a woman having sex to make babies, but a baby is still a gift from God and a miracle. There is nothing contradictory in that. We can use scientific instruments to tell us that a baby is made up of cells and atoms and molecules. But that doesn't tell us anything about the essence of a human person, and what it ultimately means to be human. Only philosopy, theology and literature can answer that question. Science also can't answer why we are here. Is the baby just an accident? Then why does it matter if we take care of it or let it die? Lastly, science can't tell help us discern right from wrong. If all beliefs and behaviors are equally good, then it doesn't matter if we treat the baby kindly or cruelly. The words kind and cruel would cease to have meaning. Science and religion answer different questions. Link to post Share on other sites
magichands Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 Lastly, science can't tell help us discern right from wrong. That's a great point. But I had better get back to dissecting this embryo. Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 For example, God uses sex to make babies. It only takes a man and a woman having sex to make babies, but a baby is still a gift from God and a miracle. There is nothing contradictory in that.. how do you know that STOREYRIDER?? give me 100% definitive proof that its a gift from "God". You, along with all of us, have no idea where the hell the gift came from!!! OK?! Admit it. Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted November 12, 2006 Share Posted November 12, 2006 Sure, I admit it. Whether God is involved in making a child is my opinion, not a fact that I can prove. But all I'm saying is, science can't answer all types of questions. As MH's joke implies, if you dissect an embryo, you won't find a clue inside telling you whether it is the right or wrong thing to do. Science answers questions about the physical world, not the spiritual or moral world. I'm not knocking science, though. We need both. Link to post Share on other sites
Rooster_DAR Posted November 12, 2006 Share Posted November 12, 2006 not the spiritual or moral world Both of which were created by man. If in spiritual world you are implying divine intervention, that is not possible in our universe or ever was for that matter. The moral world was created by man at the dawn of human intelligence due to our congitive abilities, expanded imagination, and emotional awareness. Yes, you can choose to believe what you wish, but consider the idea that god and religion were introduced to us at a young age, and we understood that as being the way things are. If you undertand fundamental phsycology, then you would also undertand that we are brought up and and carry our beliefs, along with many other characteristics we learn as children. I guess in some sense, to me it's a form of brainwashing but that seems a harsh way to put it. Regards! Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted November 12, 2006 Share Posted November 12, 2006 The moral world was created by man So was the scientific method. If there were no humans, there would be no science. Science and the scientific method were invented to answer our questions about the laws of nature. But we have questions that science can't answer. Like why are we here? So yes, we invented other systems to help try to answer those very worthy questions, too. But that doesn't mean there are no real answers. Link to post Share on other sites
Rooster_DAR Posted November 12, 2006 Share Posted November 12, 2006 So was the scientific method. If there were no humans, there would be no science. Science and the scientific method were invented to answer our questions about the laws of nature. But we have questions that science can't answer. Like why are we here? So yes, we invented other systems to help try to answer those very worthy questions, too. But that doesn't mean there are no real answers. Science is based more on science and probabitlity than religion. Religion has no basis of proof other than what we were taught to believe. Big difference. Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted November 12, 2006 Share Posted November 12, 2006 Religion has no basis of proof other than what we were taught to believe. actually its more like what we were forced to believe... Link to post Share on other sites
Author Fun2BMe Posted November 12, 2006 Author Share Posted November 12, 2006 Yes, you can choose to believe what you wish, but consider the idea that god and religion were introduced to us at a young age, and we understood that as being the way things are. If you undertand fundamental phsycology, then you would also undertand that we are brought up and and carry our beliefs, along with many other characteristics we learn as children. I guess in some sense, to me it's a form of brainwashing but that seems a harsh way to put it. Regards! Well what about the fact that people from far apart regions of the world who back in the day had no contact with each other, independently had their religions. Every group of humans from recorded history has had their religion. Man is by nature spiritual and develops a religion around it. Even cavemen would burry their dead and had religious rituals around it from what I learned in my anthropology class back in school which I found fascinating. SO it's not like some leader made up religion behind closed doors and tried to sell it to the masses as a brainwashing tool. In fact the opposite would've happened as rulers would sometimes fight against religious authorities who had a lot of power so it would've been in the interest of the state to make people not believe in religion. In fact that's what communist Russia did at the turn of the century, was to try to brainwash it's people that God didn't exist and for them to 'worship' its leaders, yet it didn't work. Spirituality is one of the traits that separates humans from animals, from what I had learned. I might not believe in a particular religion but at the end of the day if there is one God and people had so many different ways of acknowledging what they feel, then it is not a far stretch that there are a small minority who do not have that spiritual feeling within them and can easily feel comfortable with their atheist views. Again, I too don't know if God exists but I have an inside spiritual feeling that is hard to ignore and science doesn't answer a lot of questions such as why we're here and who made everything. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Fun2BMe Posted November 12, 2006 Author Share Posted November 12, 2006 actually its more like what we were forced to believe... Were you also forced to believe that the country you live in is good and the one they fight the enemy? That can't be proved by science, each has their own justification for being the 'innocent' and rightous one. If your parents truly believe in the religion they practice and expose you to it, I don't think you can say you were forced. You have the freedom to do whatever you want with everything you get taught as a child once you are old enough to think for yourself. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Fun2BMe Posted November 12, 2006 Author Share Posted November 12, 2006 Science is based more on science and probabitlity than religion. Religion has no basis of proof other than what we were taught to believe. Big difference. There are bibles that people believe is the word of God. If you don't believe in it, you might as well not take someone's word that Napoleon ever existed either. I mean you can't duplicate the battles in a lab especially those fought before photography and film, but have to take someone's word for it. Just saying... Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted November 12, 2006 Share Posted November 12, 2006 actually its more like what we were forced to believe... But everyone has a religion, some set of actions or beliefs they will cling to faithfully because to let go of it would take away something they consider vital to who they are. If you reject organized religion I believe most people will replace that with something else. Some people have tried to turn science into a religion or their political affiliation or an addiction or another human being or material possessions or vegetarianism or sex...the possibilities are endless. You could make a religion out of hating the idea of God and rejecting religious people. Link to post Share on other sites
magichands Posted November 12, 2006 Share Posted November 12, 2006 But everyone has a religion, some set of actions or beliefs they will cling to faithfully because to let go of it would take away something they consider vital to who they are. I'll buy that. And not just because I have a thing for English majors. In this sense are you equating religion to morality? Your set of moral principles is effectively your brand of religion? Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted November 12, 2006 Share Posted November 12, 2006 life is just insane Link to post Share on other sites
Author Fun2BMe Posted November 12, 2006 Author Share Posted November 12, 2006 But everyone has a religion, some set of actions or beliefs they will cling to faithfully because to let go of it would take away something they consider vital to who they are. If you reject organized religion I believe most people will replace that with something else. Some people have tried to turn science into a religion or their political affiliation or an addiction or another human being or material possessions or vegetarianism or sex...the possibilities are endless. You could make a religion out of hating the idea of God and rejecting religious people. I think you are not seeing things about religion as they pertain to this thread. Religion can have 2 meanings - one being someone's beliefs concerning the nature of the universe, the other which I think is what you are referring to, is more of something someone follows devotedly, whether its that they eat at a particular restaurant every Friday night, follow their vegetarian diet devotedly and so on which has nothing to do with answering questions concerning the purpose of the universe. I don't understand how someone's addiction to drugs or their vegetarian diet answers any of the great questions we are dealing with such as where life came from other than to state that it is the 2nd more slang version of religion, such as "he eats at McDonalds religiously." I don't know how hating the idea of God answers the purpose of the universe. So basically I think your thought is a little faulty. Your other post made more sense though!! Shame on you magichands for buying it! Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted November 12, 2006 Share Posted November 12, 2006 Your set of moral principles is effectively your brand of religion? Well, my point was that everyone has faith in some set of ideas that they will cling to, even if presented with rational arguments to the contrary. And if that set of ideas orders your life, then it becomes your religion. If it was a set of moral principles then I'd say that would be a pretty good thing, even if it happened to exclude God. But it could be something neutral or bad. For example, if you were anorexic, all the trappings of that could become your religion. (Not a perfect example, b/c this is an illness, too, obviously.) Or it could be that the democratic party is your religion. You might rather die than vote republican. Maybe you would be ashamed to show your face. You would feel like a leper. Do you get what I mean? Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted November 12, 2006 Share Posted November 12, 2006 my idea on religion is its good for the individual but very bad for the group. so many have suffered in the name of religion. its just one more thing that divides the human race up. Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted November 12, 2006 Share Posted November 12, 2006 I don't understand how someone's addiction to drugs or their vegetarian diet answers any of the great questions we are dealing with such as where life came from No, sometimes a vegetarian diet is just a vegetarian diet. I was responding more to Alpha who seems to claim to have no religion. My point is that everyone worships something. If they don't choose God to put on the highest pedestal, they have put something else there, maybe without realizing it. I just don't believe that spot is really ever empty. People who claim it is may be putting themselves there. Link to post Share on other sites
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