bluetuesday Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Wasn't Jesus' gripe with the Jews of that time that they were following the letter rather than the spirit of the law? He had a problem with Judaism as it was being practiced, not with Judaism as it was prescribed in the Torah. In other words, it wasn't the Torah that was broken. It was just the people were failing to use it properly. the truthful answer is, i don't know. certainly jesus seems to have had a problem with the application of the religion 2,000 years ago, feeling (as you allude to) that the law needed to be written on people's hearts. it needed to be a living law and, as such, it needed to be flexible and to grow, as a man flexes and grows as he ages, but remains the same man. so yes, i would say that jesus felt people were not correctly using the torah. whether he thought the torah was broken is a different issue, in my opinion. the teachings of jesus extend and in some cases re-write the old jewish laws. and whether one sees the movement which sprang up in jesus' wake as a new religion or as a development of an old one is, to me at least, beside the point. when jesus spoke about judaism i don't think he was speaking specifically about that particular religion. he could have been speaking about the fact that ANY religion, if followed to the letter and made intractable through tradition, is, for want of a better word, 'wrong'. this seems to be supported in the fact that he didn't encourage his disciples to write down the teachings they heard from him - quite the opposite, he sent them out to preach not knowing what they would say and urging them to let the holy spirit speak through them. i think this shows that jesus did not intend to start a religion which had a written doctrine and immovable laws or teachings. if he intended to start a movement at all, he wanted it to be directed solely by the spirit of god and the teachers of it open-hearted enough to hear let the spirit of god speak through them. all of which rather lengthy rambling is to illustrate that i believe what jesus was saying was that the concept of a religion whose religious teachings become fixed, is wrong. did he want to adapt judaism? some say that. did he want to begin again? a lot more say this. i feel in my heart that jesus didn't want to start a religion with a fixed doctrine or continue one with a fixed doctrine. jesus' mission could be seen as progressive revelation. by this i mean that his teachings were not the highest that could ever be delivered, they were simply the highest that the people who heard them 2,000 years ago could understand. in the sermon on the mount, jesus expanded on the ten commandments. i think that when the ten commandments were received, they were direct instructions for people who needed to be told 'you can't do this'. in other words, for people with quite a low level of spiritual awareness. thanks to the torah and the faith of the jewish people, by the time of jesus' mission, spiritual awareness had risen, and jesus was able to say 'you've heard it said that you shouldn't commit adultery, and that is right. but holding back from adultery isn't the highest way to go. a higher way is not wanting to commit adultery in your heart.' i have paraphrased but i'm sure you know which passages i'm referring to. in other words, jesus was demonstrating progressive revelation. what was right for people to hear 5,000 years ago wasn't necessarily the highest teaching they could hear 2,000 years ago. and it follows that what people could understand 2,000 years is not the highest teaching they could understand today. so while jesus did of course speak in the way the people around him could understand, if he was to complete another mission today, we'd most likely get more advanced teachings. the reason i meantion progressive revelation is because of what you said here: Wasn't Jesus simply emphasizing this rather than inventing something new? I think it is a mistake to try to truncate Christ from his Judaic roots and will lead to misinterpretations and worse. He did say (paraphrase) that he was the branch and Judaism was the root. His language is steeped in OT biblical phrasing. I believe it is crucial for the future survival of both Judaism and Christianity that we recognize the connections and similarities between the two. i am not at all sure that jesus was bothered about the long-term survival of judaism. i think his mission was about teaching people that the religion they follow (or none) doesn't in fact matter. what matters is what is written on their hearts. i think this would hold true for any religion, including the one which carries jesus' name. again, i would stress that i do not think religion is a bad thing. i have been very religious (catholic) for many years and that time in my life was good and i learned a lot. but i do not think adhering to a religion permanently is a good thing, especially if it means you stop asking questions of that religion or exploring other expressions of god. viewed as a step on the path to god, i can do nothing but applaud religion because i would not be where i am today without it. viewed as a destination on that path, religion has stopped serving its purpose and has become a barrier to finding god, who is not found exclusively in any one faith. 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Storyrider Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 i think that when the ten commandments were received, they were direct instructions for people who needed to be told 'you can't do this'. in other words, for people with quite a low level of spiritual awareness. I don't have a problem with the idea that God would reveal himself in different ways at different times, based on what was appropriate. However, I don't believe that humans progress in spiritual awareness in the same way that we progress in, say, science. There is no reason to believe this to be true. On the contrary, the 20th century has been the bloodiest in human history. And the recent fascination with postmodernism seems to me to be a movement decidedly away from spiritual truth and awareness. Spiritual knowledge is not cumulative, as is scientific knowledge. In fact, it could be argued that the farther back one looks, the closer the spiritual connection between God and his creations, just as a parent is more intimate with an infant child. i am not at all sure that jesus was bothered about the long-term survival of judaism. i think his mission was about teaching people that the religion they follow (or none) doesn't in fact matter. what matters is what is written on their hearts. i think this would hold true for any religion, including the one which carries jesus' name. But he went out of his way to highlight his connection with Judaism. Aside from what I've already mentioned, his first movement away from his family was to go to the temple at age 13, the age of bar mitzvah, and debate with the rabbis. The entire context for his story, including the last supper, was decidedly Jewish. Resistence to the context for Jesus' life is partly what is meant by the phrase "scandal of particularity". If he was fully God and fully man, his human aspects would have a cultural context and a meaning. And the prophesy that Abraham's descendence would be as numerous as the stars would not make any sense unless Christians were viewed as those descendents. Bluetuesday, you've obviously given a lot of thought to your own spiritual journey. It is interesting to read about different perspectives. Thanks for discussing this with me. Link to post Share on other sites
waggoner Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 I had a great life as a young Catholic but a terrible time in my broken home. In those days the priests did not know what to do in social situations. Most of them came from the bogs of Ireland and we could not understand what they said anyway although they were all good men. I went to a seminary and was molested for four years by the superior. The other priests knew what was going on but never did anything about it. I was hardly aware what was going on. In spite of this I kept my relationship with the Holy Eucharist at the centre of my life. I am suffering in old age now with guilt problems because my wife's illness is ruining our marriage, not her fault at all. I am trying to strike out in a new direction because her Alzheimer's is shutting me out emotionally although we get on very well and love each other. Just as I get used to her present condition something occurs to make her worse. I am fearful for the future and I have a lady friend who is helping me emotionally. I am walking a tightrope between morality and practicality and I see the signs of God all over the place.. Hope this not boring you All the very best Waggoner Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Bluetuesday, sorry about the spelling mistakes in my last post. I think I need to pray for help with that! Whenever I write on the board when teaching my (English comp!) class I have to appoint one of my students to be a human spell checker. Link to post Share on other sites
lonelybird Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 I had a great life as a young Catholic but a terrible time in my broken home. In those days the priests did not know what to do in social situations. Most of them came from the bogs of Ireland and we could not understand what they said anyway although they were all good men. I went to a seminary and was molested for four years by the superior. The other priests knew what was going on but never did anything about it. I was hardly aware what was going on. In spite of this I kept my relationship with the Holy Eucharist at the centre of my life. I am suffering in old age now with guilt problems because my wife's illness is ruining our marriage, not her fault at all. I am trying to strike out in a new direction because her Alzheimer's is shutting me out emotionally although we get on very well and love each other. Just as I get used to her present condition something occurs to make her worse. I am fearful for the future and I have a lady friend who is helping me emotionally. I am walking a tightrope between morality and practicality and I see the signs of God all over the place.. Hope this not boring you All the very best Waggoner Hi, have you prayed and talked to God by yourself, like friend to friend? if you did, I hope you know God's grace big enough to cover the guilty you felt. so you have to forgive yourself and those priests, and give all your burden to him. you don't have to bear these burdens by yourself. I hope you come out of this situation soon:) , and please come back here to give your advise and thought on these topics Link to post Share on other sites
Topper Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 Storyrider thanks for pinting that out to me. Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 Storyrider thanks for pinting that out to me. No problem. Clarity is a good thing. Link to post Share on other sites
lonelybird Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 ...... burning 4 revenge You are in a rebelling mode again? Link to post Share on other sites
funmusicgirl Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 im catholic Link to post Share on other sites
Clair Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 I am fearful for the future and I have a lady friend who is helping me emotionally. I am walking a tightrope between morality and practicality and I see the signs of God all over the place.. I think the right thing is to do what you feel in your heart, that's the highest authority. Guilt is self-destructive and useless. Link to post Share on other sites
amerikajin Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Find your own way. God gave you a mind - use it. Link to post Share on other sites
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