Not guilty--lied and feeling guilty for lying. (LONG POST)

[witabix]

Hi Pada,

 

I kind of skimmed through most of this thread, so apologies in advance if I have this @ss ways.

 

I, if were on the receiving end of this, would totally freak out if I knew my gf had spent the night with "alpha male friend". Regardless of the absence of sex.

 

I understand what you say about one man not fulfilling your needs in one way and another man not fulfilling your needs in a different way, that is understandable and happens.

 

I have a fear that you are still hooked by two different 'fishermen', for want of a better description.

 

It is only my opinion, but from my perspective, I would question seriously someone's commitment to me who had behaved in such a fashion. I hasten to add here that this not a moral bs type of comment. People behave how they wish to, and that is cool, fine by me.

 

Please do not feel I am attacking you here, I am just trying to give a perspective on this from an impartial male perspective, and I do know what has been going on with all the other stuff with Charlie.

 

Just something for you to think about.

 

Peace.

[Art_Critic]

Pada... WTF ?

 

You need to seek some counseling..this relationship has been destructive to you the whole time and you can't see it.

 

I see some of your issues that have flared up.. this is after 5 months knowing/dating someone.. normaly after 5 months if someone is putting the kind of effort as you are into a relationship they remove the disease.

 

You are writing letter after letter after letter after sit down with charlie after talk after talk after talk.

 

You need to end this.. if this is allowed to continue I see something bad happening to you..

 

Now your posts are talking about pushing.. that is Domestic Violence.

 

Please don't let this escalate into something that will hurt you further

[basscatcher]

Hi Pada,

 

I kind of skimmed through most of this thread, so apologies in advance if I have this @ss ways.

 

I, if were on the receiving end of this, would totally freak out if I knew my gf had spent the night with "alpha male friend". Regardless of the absence of sex.

 

I understand what you say about one man not fulfilling your needs in one way and another man not fulfilling your needs in a different way, that is understandable and happens.

 

I have a fear that you are still hooked by two different 'fishermen', for want of a better description.

 

It is only my opinion, but from my perspective, I would question seriously someone's commitment to me who had behaved in such a fashion. I hasten to add here that this not a moral bs type of comment. People behave how they wish to, and that is cool, fine by me.

 

Please do not feel I am attacking you here, I am just trying to give a perspective on this from an impartial male perspective, and I do know what has been going on with all the other stuff with Charlie.

 

Just something for you to think about.

 

Peace.

I do understand what you are saying.

 

I am thinking about me and bordering, if not leaning on the side, of selfishness. I trust my friend explicitly because he has proven to me I can thus far. Until then I trust him.

 

As for Charlie and I, Charlie chose to go on a kind-of break on me without even giving me a warning what he was doing.

Charlie knows I am talking with this specif friend and he said he has no problem with it. He even met him one night when we were out.

 

Charlie doens't know I seen him but what Charlie did during this 2 weeks isn't much different then what I did. Except I was seeking innocent consolence. I don't know what his agenda was other then she was crying hysterically, leaving strange messages for him and threatening suicide.

I have a feeling Charlie did kiss her but won't admit it to me because he risks losing me when he doesn't want to be alone and he doesn't want all her drama in his life either. He has to let go of her. He is getting his eye candy off her and the relationship of love from me and I feel like I'm not getting his attention and affection because he has it focused on her.

 

As for me with my friend he and I don't have and never had that love between us. He is not my eye candy nor is he my relationship. Charlie is my eye candy and my relationship. I give my affection and love to Charlie but he hasn't given it back to me and I feel so starved.. STARVED..

 

Seeking consolence in my friend may have shown weakness of my ability to stand alone without touch, recognition, kindness and attention but how long can people go without it?? Don't you think that most people would seek it out from family or friends. Its not the same kind of reception as you would get from your partner but isn't it common to find something serogate to fill in that void temporarly as best we can?

 

Some fill the void with sports, hobbies, books, partying or whatever it is that they can use to fill in the void.. I went to a male friend whom I trust to respect me and my wishes. I don't have close family where I live. There are some things that I don't feel comfortable sharing with my female friends. There are times where we need the opposite sex to help us in our time of grief.

 

How many threads are in LS that ask for the opposite sex to help them?

 

I didn't sleep with the guy. I had no intentions too.. I wanted to cry. I wanted to be held, I needed to feel that I'm cared for and I needed a mans validation for these needs.

He also was feeling alone, lost without touch. Lost without feeling a womans touch and affection (not sexual).. He hasn't went out with anyone in a long long time. He is not the kind of man who picks up women. He is a lone wolf.

He would just asoon masterbate then to pick up a easy women to get laid... He doesn't want all the trouble, headache, baggage and demands of a women's needs. That is why he and I didn't work. He was too aloof, too reserved, to detained by politics and himself.

I wanted to go out and do things together. He wasn't into going out and finding entertainment like sports, fishing, driving, dancing, social events with family or friends. He didnt want that with someone. He is a lone wolf. If he goes out it is his way, where he wants and with whom he choses to be around. He is selfish and wants only himself to be concerned with. From time to time he steps out of his realm and reaches out.

 

I know what this guy is about and where he is at. I know he is safe.. He is my friend... Period....

 

Charlie has betrayed me emotionally mostly and in other ways also. But I know that is because of his lack of time to heal from his past.

[hotgurl]

jesus you need to just let this go!

 

I mean 5 months and your writting letters. and telling him to think on it and making him read your journal and poems. If I was a guy and a girl was doing this to me after 5 months I would be so freaked out.

 

I like you want this too much, you are blinded and I am starting to question if it is love or some obsession for you.

[whichwayisup]

I honestly can't see Charlie kissing this woman because of her mental state. SHE is pushing all his buttons and he knows it too. That past sitaution has NOTHING to do with the present, you and what he feels for you. HE IS NOT going to be with her sexually or even consider a relationship with her. Don't feel threatened by it because she isn't a part of HIS life. He may be part of hers, mostly in her head - Another thing he is aware of.

 

I don't know what to post right now, I'd like to re-read your post again though. All I can say is for now, I still see the underlying issue is you and Charlie are so different and each of you are putting some sort of expectation (verbal or not) on eachother and it's not working.

 

As much as you two care for eachother, the talking, the letter writing, reading and sorting it out can only last for so long before one or both of you gets tired and says enough!

 

I will post more later,

Hugs!

[basscatcher]

Pada... WTF ?

 

You need to seek some counseling..this relationship has been destructive to you the whole time and you can't see it.

 

I see some of your issues that have flared up.. this is after 5 months knowing/dating someone.. normaly after 5 months if someone is putting the kind of effort as you are into a relationship they remove the disease.

 

You are writing letter after letter after letter after sit down with charlie after talk after talk after talk.

 

You need to end this.. if this is allowed to continue I see something bad happening to you..

 

Now your posts are talking about pushing.. that is Domestic Violence.

 

Please don't let this escalate into something that will hurt you further

 

How many times do you think I have given him the letters I've written. NEVER until now.

How many times do you think I have sat down with him and talked. NEVER until now.

I have talked about doing it but I never did because of advice not too. You and many others have stated he won't handle it well. It's not a good idea because I was too emotional and charged up.

 

I revised myself, rearraged my thoughts, chose a different path with my thinking and focused on me instiead of him directly.

 

What I gave him to read was just a exericse list for myself of different 'I" statements.

 

As for pushing--I pushed him.... I shoved him.... He pulled on me to come with him upstairs and I said 'NO'. He thought I was playing at first and pulled on me again to persuade me. I again told him 'NO'. He tried to verbally talk me into coming upstairs and took my hand and began to lead me and I shoved him and said 'NO' and snapped..

 

I haven't met a man yet who stops on the first NO......to anything unless it is emotionally or drama charged NO..

[a4a]

 

I haven't met a man yet who stops on the first NO......to anything unless it is emotionally or drama charged NO..

 

that right there says quite a bit. Wow.

[Art_Critic]

Pada ...

 

 

Do you see this as a fullfilling loving relationship ?

 

I don't want to hear about in the future if or what if statments just tell me if you think it is

[blind_otter]

 

This is a huge bummer, man. In the months that I've been reading here regularly I've really seen this relationship bring you down, down, down....

 

I mean, is your life better, more enriched, and more fulfilled because of this relationship?

 

I also don't think it's bad to want to be touched, but only in the appropriate context.

[basscatcher]

Pada ...

 

 

Do you see this as a fullfilling loving relationship ?

 

I don't want to hear about in the future if or what if statments just tell me if you think it is

 

As it is right NOW!! NO.....

[Art_Critic]

As it is right NOW!! NO.....

 

Then let it go.. because you are never going to turn this into something healthy.

 

PLEASE....

 

I'm Sorry.... Hugs...

[blind_otter]

I cannot change anyone but myself.

 

You know that is thinking like an addict -- attempting to control or change what you cannot because you feel out of control in other aspects of your life.

[alphamale]

PADA, you were already warned by me about this dude back on Oct, 27th, 2005. Here was your reply:

 

Do you understand that Mr. Alpha? Why play devil's advocate? Why place doubts and tension in a situation where you have no reason to... Until I have justifiable cause to doubt I need to be fair..

 

I think you have the "justifiable cause" now....end the relationship.

[whichwayisup]

One thing that is very clear Pada....Charlie MUST have enough feelings for you and think you're worth it if he's sticking around through all this. That for itself speaks volumes. I hope you see that. Not too many men would sit by and take this much intensity after only 5-6 months. He even has TOLD you he really does like you. Love? Well, I think Charlie is messed up and wouldn't feel or see love even if it bit him in the ass right now.

 

He thinks you're worth it, which is why he read the letter and is giving it a chance. The problem is, so much has happened that has ruined most of your trust in him, I'm not sure how it's possible or what he can do to regain your trust 100%.

 

I'm sorry to say this, but the best thing for you is YOU have to be the one to end this relationship with Charlie. If he ends it with you, I'm scared it will ruin you. Make it your choice.

 

If by chance you two DO end up together again, I really think some therapy is needed as a couple and one on one individually. But that is up to you (both) to decide that...

 

Hugs and I hope you're okay.

[alphamale]

If by chance you two DO end up together again, I really think some therapy is needed as a couple and one on one individually. But that is up to you (both) to decide that....

Personally my opinion here is that if a couple is going to end up in therapy after only 6 months (=180 days or =4,320 hours) then there is not much future to the relationship...

[whichwayisup]

I agree, but if they think it could help and this relationship continues long term then I think it has to happen. They need to learn how to 'understand' eachother without letting bad thoughts/feelings or taking things out of context the wrong way.

 

Only they can decide if it will work or not. To be willing to do this to salvage things and try again ... And if it doesn't or they choose not to, then it's just not meant to be. (sorry for the cliche saying.)

[basscatcher]

I'm ok WWIU.

 

Taking in comments from everyone.

 

Thinking, evaluating.

 

The trust is damaged, true.

 

Lost faith, definetly some if not half.

 

Salvagable, I don't know depends totally on Charlie.

 

Buildable, I don't know but leaning towards doubts.

 

I want to talk to him again and talk about his actions in the garage when I shoved him.

 

Before making a final call I need to feel assured with myself that I did what I could, that I understand everything as much as I can and that I don't leave loose ends.

 

I can't do things abruptly or I have a hard time letting go of the illusion that is left in me. I need to exhaust this for myself for complete closure so I have no doubts and I can feel total acceptance of the break.

 

I have many questions and curiosity's in me that are bothering me. I need to face these they INVOLVE Charlie.

 

NO two people are alike. Everyone has baggage. Everyone has issues. Everyone has problems. Everyone can use growth. Everyone needs someone to give them a chance when they fail; at least once.

 

Gosh, if no one ever gave me a chance I wouldn't be the person I am today. I have failed so many times in my life.. I learned to power of forgivenss but I also learned how much forgiveness you can give someone who continues to wrong you. Each of us has our own boundries and limitations.

 

It's obvious to me that some of the LS'rs have limited tolerance of peoples faults.

 

Maybe I am blind to Charlie as A_C, Alpha and some others have stated.

Maybe Charlie needed/needs a women to change the dynamics in his life to make him stop for once in his direction and challenge his actions and beliefs.. The man has only had 2 serious relationships in 17 years.. Niether women are open, affectionate, good listeners, or really sensitive.

 

He has stated several several times he has never met a woman like me..

(I've heard that often. I've also been told later that I had a influence on their lives and changed them.)

 

Even though I don't see Charlie and I together forever I at least have to finish out my emotional confusion and connection and finish this out. I figure 1-2 months (maybe less) this will play out..

 

I don't feel the confusion I use too. The hurt isn't as overwhelming.

 

I do know that there are emotions and feelings I need to deal with; there are issues I need to resolve with Charlie. Only I can do that. For myself.

 

I care about Charlie deeply. I see the GOOD side in him. It is mostly what I have seen. I am aware of the emotional handicapp he has and he cannot fullfill my emotional needs in this relationship (well he hasn't in the past), I know I'm not ready to fully let go but I feel it getting closer.

 

Sorry if I don't move as fast as some of you would like me too. I am not ready to let go. Maybe I still have to much hope and faith in people (him).

[alphamale]

The man has only had 2 serious relationships in 17 years.. Niether women are open, affectionate, good listeners, or really sensitive. .

see...this is EXACTLY what I pointed out to you five months ago.....these are the types of women he is attracted to and there is nothing you can do. people tend to date the same types of people over and over and over. you do not fall within his "type" so he cannot deal with it (or does not know how to deal with it).

[whichwayisup]

Maybe Charlie needed/needs a women to change the dynamics in his life to make him stop for once in his direction and challenge his actions and beliefs.. The man has only had 2 serious relationships in 17 years.. Niether women are open, affectionate, good listeners, or really sensitive.

 

That is your belief, but all along he told you he had trouble saying I love you and showing affection in the way most women want to be shown. He stated he had his OWN way of showing it. And he did, it just wasn't how you wanted it. That is who he is and maybe he needs a woman who will accept him for who he is. That isn't a slight towards you, its' just all along he was saying that this is who I am...And you were saying "not enough for me, this is who I AM..." There may not be a middle ground for you two on this.

[basscatcher]

That is your belief, but all along he told you he had trouble saying I love you and showing affection in the way most women want to be shown. He stated he had his OWN way of showing it. And he did, it just wasn't how you wanted it. That is who he is and maybe he needs a woman who will accept him for who he is. That isn't a slight towards you, its' just all along he was saying that this is who I am...And you were saying "not enough for me, this is who I AM..." There may not be a middle ground for you two on this.

I agree..

 

Although, I have seen glimspses in him that he is affectionate, loving, sensitive and attentive. He has it.. He has the ability..

 

He is so self protected and hides it.

 

He and I need to deciede ourselves if we cant get over this hurdle or not. If not then we need to deciede to finish this; together, mutually if possible.

[blind_otter]

It's obvious to me that some of the LS'rs have limited tolerance of peoples faults.

 

Maybe Charlie needed/needs a women to change the dynamics in his life to make him stop for once in his direction and challenge his actions and beliefs.. The man has only had 2 serious relationships in 17 years.. Niether women are open, affectionate, good listeners, or really sensitive.

 

You act as if no one here could possibly understand. I do because I used to have too much tolerace for people's faults. That is a classic consequence of growing up with abuse. You tolerate a higher level of crap than those from nonabusive backgrounds ever would.

 

And this isn't a good thing, or soemthing to be celebrated. It opens up the doorway to a lifetime of abuse and unfulfilling relationships. I say this because I do the same damn thing.

 

And is the bolded statement another way of saying he needs someone else to change him?

 

You've been to alanon meetings. You know this is false logic.

[basscatcher]

B_O

RE: the bolded text you selected.

 

I didn't change my ways and beliefs or seen that they needed to be changed until a different type of guy came into my life. I have a gf that is the same way.

 

It took a different dynamic in a partner to stir up our negative path we were on.. I am grateful for a few men who came into my life that were not the norm I was use too. They had enough patience to withstand a short term relationship with me to help me see that what I thought was normal treatment from a man was abusive and incorrect.

We were not compatable but we enjoyed dating in the context of learning and growing and helping one another during that time period.

 

I've also met men whom I dated briefly who have later came back and said that without even knowing I influenced their lives and helped them to see what they wanted in life. In a possitive way (not meaning I was unheathy for them or bad.) Their experience with me gave them more peices to the kind of woman they were seeking as a lifetime partner..

 

I know I can't change him. I can plant seeds that can grow.

 

It was obvious he was afraid of losing me the other night.

It was obvious he knew he f***ed up.

 

It might just make him look at himself because of fear of failure.

 

I told him if he and I don't work out that I hope he would learn to open himself up, express his feelings and realize that most women want love and affection from their mates. Not all women are cold, dysfunctional and aloof.

 

This is my point. I just don't feel it is time to cut the cord...

[alphamale]

I just don't feel it is time to cut the cord...

then you will just prolong the inevitable and cause more hurt and pain for both of you

[blind_otter]

man you are in full-on rationalize everything mode lately, pada. I see so many yes, but.... statements in your posts now.

 

Hey, living with so much self-doubt sucks. But I have recently learned this, since I've been working on identifying my feelings --

 

If you feel guilty, it's because you're doing something that you feel is wrong, deep down inside yourself. Weird, huh? I just learned that the other day.

[Art_Critic]

It was obvious he was afraid of losing me the other night.

It was obvious he knew he f***ed up.

 

I don't see it that way.. otherwise he would be trying to win you back..

These are things that you see because you want to see them.

 

You are afraid of being hurt.. Nothing wrong with that...

But it is coming at the expense of your emotional health