Perspective

[FredEire]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

And most wouldn't actually want to.  I can understand taking a date to a purely social event where your contacts were in attendance (anything from Friday night drinks to the annual ball), but why would you take a date to a somewhere where networking is happening?

I do think that relatability is a problem, but your judgmental attitude is a bigger problem:  you are openly unkind about so many people.  If a woman isn't slim, clever and beautiful you don't even want to know her.

Having posted a lot on this thread and read a lot of OPs comments, I can say that for me the biggest issue facing OP is this, a lack of humanity in his outlook and the way he views himself and those around him.

He continues to bark up the wrong tree unfortunately as he feels the solution is to up his "value" which he puts down to superficial attributes. He is not going to magically become a supermodel or the most charismatic guy in the room so that's never going to work for him.

But the issue lies deeper than this in the way he views the whole world as a game, a purely transactional business process. Hes completely disconnected from loving, caring and warmth, which leaves him cold and sad and desperate. Unfortunately his inability to see this and his stubborn belief that life is a game that's only played by alphas and Chads prevents him from ever making any progress.

[SoulCat]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

.....prevents him from ever making any progress.

I don't believe ZA actually wants to make any progress, as such. 
He's in his comfort zone, always able to lay the blame squarely at external factors.
Venturing outside of this bubble of his own creation scares the bejeezus out of him.
He's practically suffering from frostbite cause he's so afraid of getting burned.

Much easier to play the martyr...

[basil67]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Almost every single social environment to me is networking so there is huge overlap between social and networking. My attitude is purely a function of the way I have been continually rejected, there is no purpose in me leading people on who I am not attracted, will not fit in with me, there is no compatibility, its also a function of intense irritation of actually never matching on OLD with anyone even remotely attractive, instead its the opposite all the time. 

Is this approach, helpful, not at all. Does it make me feel a bit better, actually yes it does. Does walking around bitter make me feel a bit better, again it actually does, just last week I was once again sent some BS about not worrying about being rejected, problem was, it came from someone who seldom gets rejected. People expect others to continually put on this face of everything being OK and I think this is purely because they cannot actually face having to admit not everything is OK and more than that in my case it avoid them having to be honest with me.

 

Ah, the irony of you rejecting so many women who would give you a chance, but then complain about being repeatedly rejected yourself.   Carry on rejecting women - it's your choice. But nobody is going to take your complaints seriously (let alone have sympathy for you) when you treat others in the same way which you find hurtful when done to you.

[FredEire]

1 hour ago, SoulCat said:

I don't believe ZA actually wants to make any progress, as such. 
He's in his comfort zone, always able to lay the blame squarely at external factors.
Venturing outside of this bubble of his own creation scares the bejeezus out of him.
He's practically suffering from frostbite cause he's so afraid of getting burned.

Much easier to play the martyr...

Yeah pretty much.

Hes not into therapy, but posting on here is a kind of therapy for him. Unfortunately without willingness to take on board our thoughts it's a frustrating experience for all.

I imagine his therapists had a similar experience, a vicious circle of insisting all his red herrings are the problem and not budging an inch in terms of switching focus.

[NuevoYorko]

3 hours ago, FredEire said:

 

Hes not into therapy, but posting on here is a kind of therapy for him.

A negative therapy.  He's getting a lot of attention (I'm guilty of contributing) for whining.  

Part of successful therapy and just general growth and learning in life is to experience that doing what one is doing is NOT WORKING and if they want a different outcome, change within themselves is required.

Whining is not included in that process unless it's a very preliminary step.  Not a full time way of life.

[FredEire]

12 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

A negative therapy.  He's getting a lot of attention (I'm guilty of contributing) for whining.  

Part of successful therapy and just general growth and learning in life is to experience that doing what one is doing is NOT WORKING and if they want a different outcome, change within themselves is required.

Whining is not included in that process unless it's a very preliminary step.  Not a full time way of life.

Yep. My therapist used to tell me in jest when I was down on myself and blaming the world "self-pity is a wonderfully attractive quality". He also corrected some of my bad habits like responding negatively to compliments. Two pointers I feel would fit OP also but hey, he feels therapy is useless.

[ZA Dater]

On 4/29/2024 at 11:16 AM, FredEire said:

But the issue lies deeper than this in the way he views the whole world as a game, a purely transactional business process. Hes completely disconnected from loving, caring and warmth, which leaves him cold and sad and desperate. Unfortunately his inability to see this and his stubborn belief that life is a game that's only played by alphas and Chads prevents him from ever making any progress.

That same game is played by everyone on this planet to lesser and greater degrees. Actually I am not but what I have learnt is those qualities have little to no value to the majority of people on dating sites. I care about those around me in my small circle. Walk into a room and I can assure you the people could not actually give a continental how warm and loving you are, they will judge you on what you look like, how you speak, the level of intellect/intelligence you show and how apparently successful the person is.

You can go in there as warm and caring but it does not matter one iota if you are competing against superficially attractive people, why because many people want instant gratification.

As for loving, caring and warmth, cant say I have experienced much of that in my life.

[ZA Dater]

On 4/29/2024 at 1:34 PM, basil67 said:

Ah, the irony of you rejecting so many women who would give you a chance, but then complain about being repeatedly rejected yourself.   Carry on rejecting women - it's your choice. But nobody is going to take your complaints seriously (let alone have sympathy for you) when you treat others in the same way which you find hurtful when done to you.

Someone who is not attractive to me is not someone I am going to date so saying I have 50 people who will go on a date is irrelevant if not one of them is attractive at all. Choosing not to even engage is not rejecting them at all. If I were rejecting viable people I would want to date, that is something different but I do not think I have ever matched with anyone on a dating site I saw as being viable to date long term. 

As for chances, you forget I spent years giving chances, never did that go the other way, which is fine I accept that. 

 

[ZA Dater]

On 4/29/2024 at 12:27 PM, SoulCat said:

I don't believe ZA actually wants to make any progress, as such. 
He's in his comfort zone, always able to lay the blame squarely at external factors.
Venturing outside of this bubble of his own creation scares the bejeezus out of him.
He's practically suffering from frostbite cause he's so afraid of getting burned.

Much easier to play the martyr...

There is not much progress to be made, OLD delivers the same unattractive 'matches' it always has and well the latest lady proves I have zero chance with the people I do find attractive, never actually had a chance with any of them. 

Unfortunately and with respect I have learnt that superficial counts a great deal, far more so to most than being "loving" or "caring" or "warn", this is obvious in many a situation, go to a club, buy drinks, suddenly there is lots of attention, be funny and fun and suddenly there is lots of attention. When I go out and there are 22yo dating 48yo are you telling me "loving", "caring" and "warm" are the things they are really looking for? Again its perspective but throughout most of my life this is all I see.

[Weezy1973]

50 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Unfortunately and with respect I have learnt that superficial counts a great deal, far more so to most than being "loving" or "caring" or "warm”…

Superficially average and unattractive people find love and relationships all the time. In fact the vast majority of people are average (by definition) and the vast majority of adults on this planet are in relationships or married. 
 

The only time it’s a problem is if you’re only wanting to date folks that are superficially more attractive than you are. And as you’ve stated many times, that is absolutely the case for you. So of course you have no success. Just like you’re completely unwilling to date women less attractive than yourself (no matter how warm and loving they are) women are also unwilling to date men less attractive than themselves. It’s why most people in relationships roughly match their partners in superficial attractiveness. 

[FredEire]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

That same game is played by everyone on this planet to lesser and greater degrees. Actually I am not but what I have learnt is those qualities have little to no value to the majority of people on dating sites. I care about those around me in my small circle. Walk into a room and I can assure you the people could not actually give a continental how warm and loving you are, they will judge you on what you look like, how you speak, the level of intellect/intelligence you show and how apparently successful the person is.

You can go in there as warm and caring but it does not matter one iota if you are competing against superficially attractive people, why because many people want instant gratification.

As for loving, caring and warmth, cant say I have experienced much of that in my life.

Bollocks. I've met plenty of people who emit warm and loving energy. People gravitate towards them and look up to them.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

Bollocks. I've met plenty of people who emit warm and loving energy. People gravitate towards them and look up to them.

Yes but do they date them? 

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Superficially average and unattractive people find love and relationships all the time. In fact the vast majority of people are average (by definition) and the vast majority of adults on this planet are in relationships or married. 
 

The only time it’s a problem is if you’re only wanting to date folks that are superficially more attractive than you are. And as you’ve stated many times, that is absolutely the case for you. So of course you have no success. Just like you’re completely unwilling to date women less attractive than yourself (no matter how warm and loving they are) women are also unwilling to date men less attractive than themselves. It’s why most people in relationships roughly match their partners in superficial attractiveness. 

Once again proves superficial attraction trumps loving and caring and warm personality. Which is exactly my point. 

People must do what works for them and what they are morally ok with. For me it's hoping for a better outcome.

[FredEire]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Yes but do they date them? 

Yes, quite often.

A few of the guys I've known who were the most successful with women were extremely nice guys, it was just impossible not to like them. But they were good at relating to people too. Women actually want a guy like that. The issue is "nice" is usually just a codeword for passive and weak.

It seems you hang around in the business world with narcissists who are out for manipulation and personal gain, so it's unlikely you'd meet many guys like this.

[FredEire]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Once again proves superficial attraction trumps loving and caring and warm personality. Which is exactly my point. 

People must do what works for them and what they are morally ok with. For me it's hoping for a better outcome.

If you're not physically attractive you have to work harder, there's no doubt about that. But it's a very momentary, first impression. Once you get talking to someone you can really get an impression of when you're talking to an interesting human being with a lot to offer, or otherwise. It counts for a lot.

As I've said earlier in the thread I have had two good friends who were male models, and they sucked with women. They would get a lot of initial interactions but they came off insecure and shallow and 90% of their interactions would go nowhere.

Your confidence is at rock bottom and frankly you don't seem particularly mature. Until you address that worrying about the superficial is a fool's errand. Of course you should groom and scrub up as well as you can but there's other things that are more within your control.

[basil67]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Someone who is not attractive to me is not someone I am going to date so saying I have 50 people who will go on a date is irrelevant if not one of them is attractive at all. Choosing not to even engage is not rejecting them at all. If I were rejecting viable people I would want to date, that is something different but I do not think I have ever matched with anyone on a dating site I saw as being viable to date long term. 

As for chances, you forget I spent years giving chances, never did that go the other way, which is fine I accept that. 

Refusing to engage in someone is absolute a rejection.   Nope, not interested in you, swipe left = rejection   Do you not feel rejected when the pretty girls online refuse to engage with you? 

Anyway, I'm not saying you have to date them, I'm pointing out the irony.   You are sad because nobody gives you a chance because (you believe) they think you're boring and ugly.  Meanwhile you don't give women a chance because you think they are boring and ugly.   IRONY.   Also Karma.  You're receiving what you put out into the world

 

Edited April 30 by basil67

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Once again proves superficial attraction trumps loving and caring and warm personality. Which is exactly my point. 

Well first OP, the way you describe yourself, is that you’re not particularly warm or loving. So those qualities don’t seem to apply to you regardless. 
 

And secondly, it’s not that superficial qualities trump deeper qualities, it’s just that they come first in chronological order. As you often say, you’re not going to date someone you’re not attracted to, and neither will women. That’s just the first step. Then over time you find out how warm, loving and caring they are. 

[basil67]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

People must do what works for them and what they are morally ok with. For me it's hoping for a better outcome.

Of course one must do what works for them.  But if what you do works for you, you wouldn't spend all your time complaining.

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

Of course one must do what works for them.  But if what you do works for you, you wouldn't spend all your time complaining.

Exactly. And I’ll point out again @ZA Dater, when you were in your relationship, despite not being super attracted to the woman, you barely posted on here. 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

Exactly. And I’ll point out again @ZA Dater, when you were in your relationship, despite not being super attracted to the woman, you barely posted on here. 

Reality with that was the age gap didn't work for me, had I met her ten years earlier maybe. Having said that she put up with my lack of experience, my shyness, my near total mental involvement in work and to this day I have no idea why, perhaps I was the best of the option at the time.

I enjoyed spending time with her in terms of being "friend's". Should I have made more effort, maybe. Sadly I just never felt magnetically attracted to her like I have with other people. I kept thinking I should be more attracted, why am I not more attracted. Should I have tried more, considering where I am now, maybe. 

She is living with her new BF and is happy so id say it's worked out well for her.

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, basil67 said:

Of course one must do what works for them.  But if what you do works for you, you wouldn't spend all your time complaining.

What I do: simply hope for a better outcome. Realistically that's unlikely to happen so I just have to live with reality. 

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Well first OP, the way you describe yourself, is that you’re not particularly warm or loving. So those qualities don’t seem to apply to you regardless. 
 

And secondly, it’s not that superficial qualities trump deeper qualities, it’s just that they come first in chronological order. As you often say, you’re not going to date someone you’re not attracted to, and neither will women. That’s just the first step. Then over time you find out how warm, loving and caring they are. 

I agree, superficial is vital for initial attraction. Loving and warm is irrelevant when you walk into a room. 

Note..."over time" again this is irrelevant if the person is not attractive to begin with. It's probably why I never actually become more attractive to anyone I do get to spend any degree of time with.

 

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, FredEire said:

Yes, quite often.

A few of the guys I've known who were the most successful with women were extremely nice guys, it was just impossible not to like them. But they were good at relating to people too. Women actually want a guy like that. The issue is "nice" is usually just a codeword for passive and weak.

It seems you hang around in the business world with narcissists who are out for manipulation and personal gain, so it's unlikely you'd meet many guys like this.

Oh no I have met those type of guys and taken an instant dislike to many, their apparent perfect lives being shoved in everyone's face, then there is what is very obviously feigned interest in people around them. There is the seemingly perfect GF, perfect career etc and no thanks I avoid people like this because nobody has a perfect life.

There are few things I detest more than feigned interest.

 

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, FredEire said:

If you're not physically attractive you have to work harder, there's no doubt about that. But it's a very momentary, first impression. Once you get talking to someone you can really get an impression of when you're talking to an interesting human being with a lot to offer, or otherwise. It counts for a lot.

As I've said earlier in the thread I have had two good friends who were male models, and they sucked with women. They would get a lot of initial interactions but they came off insecure and shallow and 90% of their interactions would go nowhere.

Your confidence is at rock bottom and frankly you don't seem particularly mature. Until you address that worrying about the superficial is a fool's errand. Of course you should groom and scrub up as well as you can but there's other things that are more within your control.

Is it momentary though? I have met people I get along with well, in fact every person I have found attractive because I could communicate well with them and yet nothing actually happens barring being rejected.

"A lot to offer" again that's transactional, I am glad we can agree part of dating is transactional. I do not believe it's possible to ever overcome a lack of physical attraction using other qualities, well for me at least. Lack of physical attraction immediately makes it friend zone. Again proven by the fact I get nowhere with the people I find attractive and communicate well with. Good example of this " was good to see you, you were really good company", went nowhere.

Did those friends date, did they hook up or did they spend every weekend alone with no dating options?

Nobody who is unsuccessful at something will be confident about it, that's just life. 

[basil67]

42 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Oh no I have met those type of guys and taken an instant dislike to many, their apparent perfect lives being shoved in everyone's face, then there is what is very obviously feigned interest in people around them. There is the seemingly perfect GF, perfect career etc and no thanks I avoid people like this because nobody has a perfect life.

There are few things I detest more than feigned interest.

 

How exactly do these guys 'shove their perfect lives in everyone's face'?  Is it that they dare to be seen in public looking happy and sociable and don't bore people with complaining?   I honestly have no idea what you're seeing that I don't see.

And unless we're an absolute arsehole, we all have to feign interest when we're stuck talking to someone who at best we can't connect with or at worst is a bore or a whiner. 

 But if the person who's stuck in this situation is at at a social event, would you rather them openly ignore the person who's not good company?  Do you know that such behaviour would see them not get an invite to future events because they are a rude guest?  So yes, common courtesy dictates that one feigns interest until they can escape.  This is one of the perfect uses of wine "Oh look, my glass is empty...I'll go fill it up. It's been lovely meeting you".   

If you detest feigned interest, how do you deal with someone who's a bore when you're a guest at a party without feigning interest?   How do you manage to survive a bad 30 minute coffee date without feigning interest?   Heaven forbid, what do you do if you're seated next to someone who wants to talk about football or fashion?   Do you feign interest because you're courteous or are you rude tell them that they are horribly dull and to not speak to you.

You seem to detest a lot of things about other people.  This is likely why you can't make friends.

 

Edited May 1 by basil67