Perspective

[ZA Dater]

35 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

But you don’t let it be - you’ve tried repeatedly to “prove everyone wrong” and you complain endlessly about the injustice of it all…

I’ve said it before - it’s like someone without a law degree who applies at all the big law firms and then complains endlessly when he is not hired as a lawyer. When you set unrealistic expectations for yourself - and I’m not talking about physical appearance I’m talking about the decision to pursue a relationship with a woman who is not otherwise committed and interested in dating you - you set yourself up for repeated failure.

Well I guess its always going to be so because in 20 odd years not one of the people i have found attractive have been interested in me, ever. Which makes the entire idea pretty pointless, in my view the expectations are not unrealistic. I know what I am and what I can offer.

You are right because I have seen the remarkable difference in fortune my friends have because they actually have people they find attractive interested in them, in fact thinking about it you are 1000% right because for me its always been about being the best version of myself in the hope that maybe someone I find attractive will be interested.

What I am going to do is just do the friendzone thing. That I reckon is where my level is really.  I'll never be good enough to date for the people I like but I can be that loyal friend and just accept those limitations because I can tell you right now I am not prepared to date people I am not interest in who do not intellectually interest me for the sake of dating. Its just challenging giving up on ever having a relationship and all the challenges and good things which come from it.

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, BaileyB said:

This is not entirely true. If it was, you wouldn’t find yourself eternally single. There are so many women out there that fit this description - and yet, you find a way to disqualify almost all…

None match with me on OLD. Others have kids which I do not want, others are not in shape and others provide no intellectual stimulation, others lack ambition. I can go on and on, I make an effort to try keep in shape, I make an effort to take an interest in the world around me, I do one heck of a tough job and take on more and more and never shy away from anything difficult. 

For me its great to meet someone who challenges me, makes me think, makes me want to be a better person and someone its easy to while away hours with. This is very very difficult to accomplish and to be honest I am just giving up for good on ever finding that in the relationship sense.

[FredEire]

14 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

None match with me on OLD. Others have kids which I do not want, others are not in shape and others provide no intellectual stimulation, others lack ambition. I can go on and on, I make an effort to try keep in shape, I make an effort to take an interest in the world around me, I do one heck of a tough job and take on more and more and never shy away from anything difficult. 

For me its great to meet someone who challenges me, makes me think, makes me want to be a better person and someone its easy to while away hours with. This is very very difficult to accomplish and to be honest I am just giving up for good on ever finding that in the relationship sense.

I still find it odd that you describe having had plenty of dates from OLD, which obviously means you swiped right. If you didn't find them attractive, why did you do this?

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, FredEire said:

I still find it odd that you describe having had plenty of dates from OLD, which obviously means you swiped right. If you didn't find them attractive, why did you do this?

In the hope they would be more attractive in person and there would be something of maybe an intangible attraction. In other words I gave them the benefit of the doubt which was basically me thinking it's a numbers game. It's also why I won't do it again.

I suppose the degree of comfort I take is knowing I am at least a useful person if not a romantically attractive one.

 

[ZA Dater]

Not surprisingly no coffee meet up this week and no communication either. I think this makes the position very (hurtfully) clear. Friend of mine had a break up this week so I could distract myself by listening to him and providing some words of encouragement (he broke up with her) but it also made me reflect and once again look at myself.

I wound the clock back, way back actually and tried to understand what exactly I am looking for in the hope I could find some sort of closure and to some degree I did. Every single person I have been drawn to was defined by a combination of attraction, personality, ambition, physical looks, intelligence,, intellect and all had warm confident personalities. Not one of these people ever found me attractive, this is hard to reconcile. I then wondered why I thought OLD would give me a better opportunity and why I went on endless dates with people who never really interested me.

I can of course lament all of this but I can also choose to something. Basically I need to decide which direction to compromise, none of them are actually what I want but I need to decide which gives me the most of what I want. The way I see it what has got me closest to what I actually want is these hugely compromised "friend zone" arrangements, whereby I offer up something she might like and she offers up company. Non monetary transactional and I think because these compromises make me feel really good for a short amount of time they do work very well. The problem now is I have had a relationship and while it was not really one that "worked" I did like that closeness which one of these friend zone arrangement would never get me and also one lunch/breakfast a month is not really enough.

 

 

 

Edited April 25 by ZA Dater

[Weezy1973]

The “friend zone” arrangement won’t work because it’s not what you actually are looking for, and more importantly, the women are completely in the dark that you actually are using them as a girlfriend proxy, rather than genuinely just wanting to be their friend. 

[ZA Dater]

16 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

The “friend zone” arrangement won’t work because it’s not what you actually are looking for, and more importantly, the women are completely in the dark that you actually are using them as a girlfriend proxy, rather than genuinely just wanting to be their friend. 

Likewise they are simply using me to either into my social circle or to gain access to my expertise so in in essence its a tacit transactional arrangement of sorts but yes they probably do not obviously see the benefit for me. If anything there is no real benefit for me barring actually having some enjoyable company.

[NuevoYorko]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Likewise they are simply using me to either into my social circle or to gain access to my expertise so in in essence its a tacit transactional arrangement of sorts 

So these very rare warm, gorgeous, brilliant, ambitious women who you have found attractive are also "using" you to gain access to your social circle?

With all those attributes, why are they not able to function socially on their own?  Surprising that they would need to latch on to any other person to attain access to any social circle.   

 

[FredEire]

1 minute ago, NuevoYorko said:

So these very rare warm, gorgeous, brilliant, ambitious women who you have found attractive are also "using" you to gain access to your social circle?

With all those attributes, why are they not able to function socially on their own?  Surprising that they would need to latch on to any other person to attain access to any social circle.   

 

Also sounds like he expects to be used and abused by these amazing brilliant women, which would make you wonder if they're so wonderful after all.

I have the feeling that anyone who meets his criteria of physical attraction are suddenly wonderful princesses who can do no wrong, while those who don't are characterised as awful dull and boring.

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, FredEire said:

Also sounds like he expects to be used and abused by these amazing brilliant women, which would make you wonder if they're so wonderful after all.

I have the feeling that anyone who meets his criteria of physical attraction are suddenly wonderful princesses who can do no wrong, while those who don't are characterised as awful dull and boring.

Not really, the main things I notice are if they can have an intelligent conversation, are well spoken, have knowledge of the world around them, have interest in it, possess some general knowledge. Yeah and its nice if they actually make an attempt to look after their physical appearance. 

The thing for me now is I am completely free in the sense I know I am never going to actually find mutual attraction so I can look for whatever I want because, well I am never actually going to find that scenario. I do believe to lesser or greater degrees we are all used intentionally and so less overly so most of the time. Years ago I had someone charm me on OLD, she was utterly charming, well spoken, from the UK, she needed business assistance and well who better to get that from than someone who would give it all for nothing in return for a few coffee's and lunches. As soon as she had what she needed, disappeared into think air. I was sore about it for a while and then it happened again, I became that listening ear, the support in bad times and I do not regret being that person but again as soon as none of that was needed, disappeared into think air.

And so on and so forth. Catch is, I liked this attention while it lasted so it could be argued nobody actually got used and both people benefited to lesser or greater degrees. 

Again I wont find any of this so its largely irrelevant.

[OKtoday]

If you’re both using each other, do you actually help every person out for playing a roll in your fantasy, entertainment?
Is the time you spend thinking, dreaming it’s a date, posting about the possibilities get measured against their networking matches. Does each gal agree to this and get a networking payout of some form??

They may not be aware of this game you are setting up and It’s really not a very attractive move once realized. That may be when the coffee journey ends. 

Im not sure if she gets the opportunity to decide for herself or if you decide for them that this is fair and equal trade.

Maybe stop the “play dates” and walk towards being more respectful and authentic. Everyone at all levels would appreciate and recognize those qualities.

Raise your Vibration to a higher level, as they say.

 

[basil67]

9 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Likewise they are simply using me to either into my social circle or to gain access to my expertise so in in essence its a tacit transactional arrangement of sorts but yes they probably do not obviously see the benefit for me. If anything there is no real benefit for me barring actually having some enjoyable company.

Networking and getting business advice isn't "friend zone"  

Friend zone is where they genuinely like you as a friend and seek out your company for no other reason than enjoying your presence..... but you want more. 

[NuevoYorko]

5 hours ago, basil67 said:

 Friend zone is where they genuinely like you as a friend and seek out your company for no other reason than enjoying your presence..... but you want more. 

And, offer less.  You don't offer friendship.  And I don't know if you've actually provided any of these women access to your stratospheric social scene.  So what's your contribution? 

 

[ZA Dater]

13 hours ago, OKtoday said:

If you’re both using each other, do you actually help every person out for playing a roll in your fantasy, entertainment?
Is the time you spend thinking, dreaming it’s a date, posting about the possibilities get measured against their networking matches. Does each gal agree to this and get a networking payout of some form??

They may not be aware of this game you are setting up and It’s really not a very attractive move once realized. That may be when the coffee journey ends. 

Im not sure if she gets the opportunity to decide for herself or if you decide for them that this is fair and equal trade.

Maybe stop the “play dates” and walk towards being more respectful and authentic. Everyone at all levels would appreciate and recognize those qualities.

Raise your Vibration to a higher level, as they say.

 

I am perfectly authentic and respectful I just simply refuse to settle for people I am not interested in simply because they show interest in me.  Nobody gives a continental about my qualities and that's fine, no problem.

How it typically works is they actually enjoy going up nice places, nice lunches etc and interesting people. Granted it's quite difficult to actually do this because I need people who I enjoy spending time with and who fit in with this social scene so more often than not he his never actually works. It is good when it does work though.

[ZA Dater]

12 hours ago, basil67 said:

Networking and getting business advice isn't "friend zone"  

Friend zone is where they genuinely like you as a friend and seek out your company for no other reason than enjoying your presence..... but you want more. 

Nobody likes me as a friend and again that's fine, I really don't care, consequently it's clear they don't like being around me either, again that's fine. 

It's probably why no relationship would ever work.

All is not lost, I can walk around looking, picturing a great relationship, someone to spend time with, do things with, accomplish things with. The fact it won't happen I guess is that cost of wanting what I want.

[basil67]

10 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Nobody likes me as a friend and again that's fine, I really don't care, consequently it's clear they don't like being around me either, again that's fine. 

 

'Nobody likes you as a friend'   Would I be to assume that you only want friends who are slim, beautiful and who will spend lots of time talking about politics and world affairs?   

Edited April 27 by basil67

[ZA Dater]

18 hours ago, basil67 said:

'Nobody likes you as a friend'   Would I be to assume that you only want friends who are slim, beautiful and who will spend lots of time talking about politics and world affairs?   

Partly correct yes. I like being around people who take some interest in the world around them, who look after themselves, have some ambition and have achieved some success. 

[basil67]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

• Partly correct yes. I like being around people who take some interest in the world around them, who look after themselves, have some ambition and have achieved some success.

 

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

• I just simply refuse to settle for people I am not interested in simply because they show interest in me.

So people do show interest in your friendship but you rule them out as friends because they aren't attractive or ambitious .

This is the same as your dating.  You rule out so many people and then complain that nobody wants you

I very much understand enjoying company where you've got a main thing in common (I'm a mum and have this in common with all of my friends), but what someone looks like and their ambition and success has nothing to do with friendship.  I didn't finish school, but that's irrelevant to my friends who have professions.  This is why you're struggling to find friends.....you don't understand friendship and reject those who do offer it.  

What about male friends?  I seem to recall you looking down on a great many men so I imagine you wouldn't lower yourself to being friends with them either.

 

Edited April 28 by basil67

[basil67]

On 4/27/2024 at 4:49 AM, ZA Dater said:

I do believe to lesser or greater degrees we are all used intentionally and so less overly so most of the time. Years ago I had someone charm me on OLD, she was utterly charming, well spoken, from the UK, she needed business assistance and well who better to get that from than someone who would give it all for nothing in return for a few coffee's and lunches. As soon as she had what she needed, disappeared into think air. I was sore about it for a while and then it happened again, I became that listening ear, the support in bad times and I do not regret being that person but again as soon as none of that was needed, disappeared into think air.

The answer to this is to stop allowing yourself to be put in this situation.  First of all, don't go giving freebies in the hope it will bring romance or friendship.  And then ask yourself what kind of person would take freebies in the first place.  A good person, one worth knowing would insist on paying you for your time and experience.

I'm in an Instagram sewing group where the discussion point is people who undervalue our work and want freebies or to pay next to nothing.  "Can you make me a ballgown and have it ready for the weekend? I'll pay you $50!"  🙄  It's all about skilling each other up to say NO to people who don't value our work

Edited April 28 by basil67

[ZA Dater]

7 hours ago, basil67 said:

The answer to this is to stop allowing yourself to be put in this situation.  First of all, don't go giving freebies in the hope it will bring romance or friendship.  And then ask yourself what kind of person would take freebies in the first place.  A good person, one worth knowing would insist on paying you for your time and experience.

I'm in an Instagram sewing group where the discussion point is people who undervalue our work and want freebies or to pay next to nothing.  "Can you make me a ballgown and have it ready for the weekend? I'll pay you $50!"  🙄  It's all about skilling each other up to say NO to people who don't value our work

Part of me doesn't mind because it's not a waste of time and at least I then feel like I have some value in the sense of can help. Sure it's also nice to get some attention from someone attractive, that's always a nice feeling and it leads onto the inevitable "what if" and at that point I should not think anymore.

Agreed on valuing but for me I am really not valued in general so it's good to feel like I can help and add some value. 

[basil67]

19 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Part of me doesn't mind because it's not a waste of time and at least I then feel like I have some value in the sense of can help. Sure it's also nice to get some attention from someone attractive, that's always a nice feeling and it leads onto the inevitable "what if" and at that point I should not think anymore.

Agreed on valuing but for me I am really not valued in general so it's good to feel like I can help and add some value. 

You do know that you can't buy women's affection by doing freebie favours right? 

If you're feeling taken advantage of, then you always have the opportunity to charge fair market value for your time.  But if you're not feeling taken advantage of, you have no right to be sore.

[ZA Dater]

28 minutes ago, basil67 said:

You do know that you can't buy women's affection by doing freebie favours right? 

If you're feeling taken advantage of, then you always have the opportunity to charge fair market value for your time.  But if you're not feeling taken advantage of, you have no right to be sore.

It is what it is really. Sure you are right but its probably the only way I can actually get any sort of attention. The cynic in me remembers sitting in many a bar/club and seeing the free drinks, the attention that got and while that is not me, that certain does work for some in so much as they get attention, yes there is a downside but likewise what I do has a downside too so one is not much better than the other barring the fact I am not trying to sleep with these people because I know my level of attraction is poor.

 

[ZA Dater]

9 hours ago, basil67 said:

 

So people do show interest in your friendship but you rule them out as friends because they aren't attractive or ambitious .

This is the same as your dating.  You rule out so many people and then complain that nobody wants you

I very much understand enjoying company where you've got a main thing in common (I'm a mum and have this in common with all of my friends), but what someone looks like and their ambition and success has nothing to do with friendship.  I didn't finish school, but that's irrelevant to my friends who have professions.  This is why you're struggling to find friends.....you don't understand friendship and reject those who do offer it.  

What about male friends?  I seem to recall you looking down on a great many men so I imagine you wouldn't lower yourself to being friends with them either.

 

The thing here is I have associates rather than friends, in the sense there are people who need me for specific things, I am never going to see them all the time, just some of the time where the axis of work and hobby meets so yes I have very few friends, I have one we met aged 8 but we are very different people today, we will see each other perhaps once ever three months or so, lives are very different. Another one is someone I see everyday but again very different lives, lot of common interests but when I go out in the odd social group I often ask myself why I bother because again no real common ground and being single all the time does not help when everyone else as partners.

You know how many dinner parties I got invited to when I was dating: many (my associates)...you know how many I got invited after breaking up: Zero. That alone tells a story.

Look the fundamental problem with both dating and friendship for me is relatability. For better or worse I have been fortunate to network quite well and while this is nice its also problematic because people can find this environment very intimidating so honestly if I am going to date someone I need to be fairly sure they'd fit in. Most simply would not. 

 

 

[basil67]

43 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

For better or worse I have been fortunate to network quite well and while this is nice its also problematic because people can find this environment very intimidating so honestly if I am going to date someone I need to be fairly sure they'd fit in. Most simply would not. 

And most wouldn't actually want to.  I can understand taking a date to a purely social event where your contacts were in attendance (anything from Friday night drinks to the annual ball), but why would you take a date to a somewhere where networking is happening?

I do think that relatability is a problem, but your judgmental attitude is a bigger problem:  you are openly unkind about so many people.  If a woman isn't slim, clever and beautiful you don't even want to know her.

Edited April 29 by basil67

[ZA Dater]

18 minutes ago, basil67 said:

And most wouldn't actually want to.  I can understand taking a date to a purely social event where your contacts were in attendance (anything from Friday night drinks to the annual ball), but why would you take a date to a somewhere where networking is happening?

I do think that relatability is a problem, but your judgmental attitude is a bigger problem:  you are openly unkind about so many people.  If a woman isn't slim, clever and beautiful you don't even want to know her.

Almost every single social environment to me is networking so there is huge overlap between social and networking. My attitude is purely a function of the way I have been continually rejected, there is no purpose in me leading people on who I am not attracted, will not fit in with me, there is no compatibility, its also a function of intense irritation of actually never matching on OLD with anyone even remotely attractive, instead its the opposite all the time. 

Is this approach, helpful, not at all. Does it make me feel a bit better, actually yes it does. Does walking around bitter make me feel a bit better, again it actually does, just last week I was once again sent some BS about not worrying about being rejected, problem was, it came from someone who seldom gets rejected. People expect others to continually put on this face of everything being OK and I think this is purely because they cannot actually face having to admit not everything is OK and more than that in my case it avoid them having to be honest with me.