Author ZA Dater Posted May 24, 2021 Author Posted May 24, 2021 47 minutes ago, elaine567 said: ALL that women value is NOT seduction and sex, but dating is not dating without romance, seduction and sex, surely? Hanging out with a platonic friend or a "roommate" is not dating. What differentiates friends from dates is romantic interest and sexual attraction leading to sex... I suppose one could argue which one has more value, friends of a romantic interest. Based on my own experience as the "friend" it would sometimes seem that romantic interests are unwilling or incapable of doing the friend part very well as evidenced by the number of times I get asked do things for people who have boyfriends who are perfectly capable of doing them. This is the usual route I go every so often because there is a slight chance I can "make up" for what I lack in romance with something else.
Author ZA Dater Posted May 24, 2021 Author Posted May 24, 2021 2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said: And as most people have pointed out, if you want to find an actual relationship this means you have to lower your expectations (particularly in the purely physical looks department of a woman) or raise your appeal. But I suspect you’ll refuse. Because deep down you actually don’t want to succeed. Your fear of being hurt is so great, that creating a world where it’s impossible for you to find a match works to prevent that. You are unequivocally against taking any risk. And without risk there is no reward. So the cycle continues. 1: No thanks 2: How. In case you have noticed not much really gets to me, to do what I do day in day out you become pretty tough, its a fight out there, either get up from the ground or be trampled. I have had women say some pretty harsh things to me which I can shrug off. For me success is defined as dating someone I want to date without having to go "well I sort of like her" for me I either like them or I do not, much the same ladies like me or they do not. I chase the ideal, whether its gettable or not is irrelevant, I'd rather chase that than something I do not really want.
elaine567 Posted May 24, 2021 Posted May 24, 2021 7 minutes ago, ZA Dater said: This is the usual route I go every so often because there is a slight chance I can "make up" for what I lack in romance with something else. Like what exactly.?
Author ZA Dater Posted May 24, 2021 Author Posted May 24, 2021 3 hours ago, SumGuy said: As long as you persist in reducing what women want, or even what the women you want want, to simple transactional/materialism you will never have interest...unless you go full on that route and just become a sugar daddy. If one can't see the problem there is little hope for a solution. I can't recall, have you thought of just going the sugar daddy route, basically another way of women who are just looking for gold and men that have that to offer. I understand it can be more than that emotionally, just gets your foot in the door so to speak especially when you have a hard time making a good first impression in the dating realm. I have actually had a few of those dates but they do nothing for me, its totally fake from minute 1 to minute 10, I get why some guys enjoy them though but for me they are much like a business meeting barring the fact they serve no purpose at all, add the leach factor and the pay per hour factor and there is not much appeal at all. Well you might think I am reducing what women want and maybe that's true but oddly when I do line up and compete its oddly easy to quantify why I do not get picked so from this I can deduce what I am they do not want.
Weezy1973 Posted May 24, 2021 Posted May 24, 2021 1 hour ago, ZA Dater said: For me success is defined as dating someone I want to date without having to go "well I sort of like her" for me I either like them or I do not, much the same ladies like me or they do not. The type of woman you want to date is not interested in a guy like you. They’re interested in the types of guys you show some disdain for in these threads. Those women are buying what those guys are selling. Because you don’t have relationship experience, you haven’t spent time with someone you’re not compatible with. To be blunt, you’re not compatible with these women. I’ve mentioned that there likely are women you’re compatible with. Women looking to settle down, have children, raise a family etc. but I don’t think you’re interested. The qualities you like about yourself would be a good match for those women, and the qualities you feel you lack wouldn’t be as high on the priority list for them. I suspect you’re focused on a certain type of women because those are the women your colleagues date. You see a model as being a higher caliber than a teacher or a nurse for example. You’re focused on a woman as an achievement rather than a partner centered around compatible values and life goals. It’s a weird mindset to have and another factor why you continue to fail.
Author ZA Dater Posted May 24, 2021 Author Posted May 24, 2021 1 minute ago, Weezy1973 said: The type of woman you want to date is not interested in a guy like you. They’re interested in the types of guys you show some disdain for in these threads. Those women are buying what those guys are selling. Because you don’t have relationship experience, you haven’t spent time with someone you’re not compatible with. To be blunt, you’re not compatible with these women. I’ve mentioned that there likely are women you’re compatible with. Women looking to settle down, have children, raise a family etc. but I don’t think you’re interested. The qualities you like about yourself would be a good match for those women, and the qualities you feel you lack wouldn’t be as high on the priority list for them. I suspect you’re focused on a certain type of women because those are the women your colleagues date. You see a model as being a higher caliber than a teacher or a nurse for example. You’re focused on a woman as an achievement rather than a partner centered around compatible values and life goals. It’s a weird mindset to have and another factor why you continue to fail. Odd you say this because compatibility is something that I do look for. I do not chase people I do not think I would be compatible with. I was very compatible with the recent one, probably the most compatible ever actually. You should not get me started on life goals because this perhaps the biggest reason I am unattracted to most people, there is nothing to them, there is no drive, there is no ambition, there is no chasing of anything, I get quite enthusiastic when I meet people who are driven to do things and go somewhere in life but I rarely end up meeting them. I am not really interested in settling down because my list becomes even longer and then she needs to be able to support herself and in the third world country many just about get by. Me, I like the odd luxury in life and aspire to those things. I cannot fathom people who do not dream a bit. In short and to be blunt there need to be someone really captivating to interest me. You see the elephant in the room is this, if I have to have certain requirements then I can expect similar requirements. If I do not match up then I get rejected so I can do exactly the same. Most of my life has been spent trying to prove people wrong, going against the grain and generally not bothering to fit in, that is not going to change. I take on the impossible to try prove it is possible and dating is much the same. If that means never winning then so be it because in my mind I have won anyway, I do not let society dictate to me where I need to go, what I need to say and I can be my own person who spend most of his time alone. A sacrifice, maybe. I enjoy going after the impossible knowing its unlikely because who wants predictable, after all you and others have gone to great lengths to tell me the over weight guy has just as much chance with the model as the fit and athletic guy. K is less than stunning looking but she captivates me because she bothers to take some interest in me and she is very smart and has great world knowledge, add in assertive and it makes for a fun conversation. Very few people get to see the real me, she does and the window did, why because I wanted to show them because I saw I had a chance. The person who arrives and has next to nothing to say, I am hardly to going bother showing much of myself, why its pointless because there is no physical attraction and no mental attraction either. The one word I ask myself most often "why". Question everything, accept nothing.
Weezy1973 Posted May 24, 2021 Posted May 24, 2021 13 minutes ago, ZA Dater said: Odd you say this because compatibility is something that I do look for. I do not chase people I do not think I would be compatible with. I was very compatible with the recent one, probably the most compatible ever actually. No you weren’t. Compatibility is two sided. 14 minutes ago, ZA Dater said: You should not get me started on life goals because this perhaps the biggest reason I am unattracted to most people, there is nothing to them, there is no drive, there is no ambition, there is no chasing of anything, So what are your goals and ambitions? Where do you see yourself in 10 years? 15 minutes ago, ZA Dater said: You see the elephant in the room is this, if I have to have certain requirements then I can expect similar requirements. If I do not match up then I get rejected so I can do exactly the same. This isn’t really an elephant in the room and it doesn’t make much sense. Of course you can reject people you’re not compatible with or attracted to and of course others can and will reject you for the same reasons. 18 minutes ago, ZA Dater said: you and others have gone to great lengths to tell me the over weight guy has just as much chance with the model as the fit and athletic guy. I’ve never said that. I’ve said like attracts like. Pointed to the matching phenomenon many times. Yes there are apparent rare mismatches in looks but usually there’s something else to compensate. Wealth. Charm. Fame. Power. 21 minutes ago, ZA Dater said: The one word I ask myself most often "why". Question everything, accept nothing. And how’s that working for you? 2
Author ZA Dater Posted May 24, 2021 Author Posted May 24, 2021 37 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said: And how’s that working for you? About the same as dating really. I'll keep chasing what I want, even if I never get it, though I might get the odd crumb every so often, even this date was a decent enough experience. The reasons it did not work was a lack of physical attraction so in theory a friendship would get me more of the crumb more of the time. Its a choice really, endless disappointment versus some decent experience I just need to remember it will ONLY be friends and nothing else.
SumGuy Posted May 24, 2021 Posted May 24, 2021 3 hours ago, ZA Dater said: I have actually had a few of those dates but they do nothing for me, its totally fake from minute 1 to minute 10, I get why some guys enjoy them though but for me they are much like a business meeting barring the fact they serve no purpose at all, add the leach factor and the pay per hour factor and there is not much appeal at all. ... I think the purpose is you help pay for their life and they provide company and sex. Likely they can't come right out and say that usually. This thing I believe is simply where certain women the money is enough for them to have interest. I believe it is much more involved than per hour. I don't want to judge how fake it is or is not, but yes it is a very transactional/materialistic approach to dating. However, you already seem to believe that is what it is all about in the end, just with a sugar coating. As you can't provide the sugar coating, why not? So if you truly believe that, here is your solution where you only need to have lots of money, don't need to change what you believe or work on yourself. Or within what I believe to be your philosophy, you could get supper built. That is within your capacity. Doesn't require you to change how you think or express yourself, just dedication to a workout, and possibly diet, routine. Otherwise the number one way is to establish connection, which means you need to lighten up, open your mind and be able to have a twinkle in your eye. That requires you to change your head, perhaps the easiest and hardest thing to do.
SumGuy Posted May 24, 2021 Posted May 24, 2021 2 hours ago, ZA Dater said: ...Most of my life has been spent trying to prove people wrong, going against the grain and generally not bothering to fit in, that is not going to change. I take on the impossible to try prove it is possible and dating is much the same. If that means never winning then so be it because in my mind I have won anyway, I do not let society dictate to me where I need to go, what I need to say and I can be my own person who spend most of his time alone. A sacrifice, maybe.... Nobody is dictating anything, the "dictating" you hear is what you tell yourself is needed to get the girl. The major thing I am saying is stop being so misanthropic, it sounds to me you make yourself a project; that the women who date you need to pull you out like pulling teeth, then and only then do you deign to show yourself. Quote K is less than stunning looking but she captivates me because she bothers to take some interest in me and she is very smart and has great world knowledge, add in assertive and it makes for a fun conversation. Very few people get to see the real me, she does and the window did, why because I wanted to show them because I saw I had a chance. What made you think you had a chance? You having interest is not the same. Outgoing people are going to be outgoing, and may even take it as a challenge to draw you out and give you a chance. But unless you step up, few want to take you on as a project...they want a partner not a child. Quote The person who arrives and has next to nothing to say, I am hardly to going bother showing much of myself, why its pointless because there is no physical attraction and no mental attraction either. Think on this long and hard. If a woman agrees to see you she has an inkling of physical and mental attraction to you. If you look like your photos, the physical attraction isn't going to evaporate. So when you show up do you have next to nothing to say? My impression is until they impress you, you stay within your comfortable business manner shell. You should not be meeting women you have no minimum of physical or mental attraction to, to the extent you can tell before hand, UNLESS you are going to talk to her and give her a chance. 1
elaine567 Posted May 24, 2021 Posted May 24, 2021 it doesn't matter if he is paying for it or not, or if she is interested or not, or even whether she is attractive or not, the problem here is, he has reached a hurdle he cannot cross. He cannot take things to the next level, he cannot flirt, he cannot escalate, he cannot touch, he cannot kiss, he cannot initiate, he cannot take anything into the physical realm, bar a platonic hug... Because . A) he doesn't know how to and B) he is too scared of rejection, humiliation and/or being laughed at. He thus keeps up the excuse narrative, going round and round in circles and making little sense. He chooses unavailable women who are nice to him to make it look like he is trying to date. (He may indeed be fooling himself here, I do not know, but the result is the same.) He never gets out of the friendzone. The truth being he doesn't want to ever get out of the friendzone, not really, as the next step for him is far too difficult, a step too far?. 3
SumGuy Posted May 24, 2021 Posted May 24, 2021 4 minutes ago, elaine567 said: ...The truth being he doesn't want to ever get out of the friendzone, not really, as the next step for him is far too difficult, a step too far?. Perhaps, and is the step too far creating performance anxiety? Hadn't thought about that.
dramafreezone Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 5 hours ago, Weezy1973 said: 5 hours ago, ZA Dater said: you and others have gone to great lengths to tell me the over weight guy has just as much chance with the model as the fit and athletic guy. I've never said any such thing. You say that things aren't possible and I use examples to show you that they are. Is it harder to attract a beautiful woman when you're overweight as opposed to being a fitness model? Of course it is. Is it harder for a guy making $30k to attract a beautiful woman as opposed to a similar man making $30m a year? Heck yes it is. Life isn't fair. I'm a short guy by all standards, is it easier for a taller guy to attract a woman than a short guy? Yes, so according to you I should just give up just because others have an advantage I don't have. What I do know is that there are women out there that don't care about height, and they're the ones I'm interested in. What is the use in complaining about what you can't change, or being envious of someone else? I'd rather just go for it myself, because I believe I deserve good things in life. You don't believe you deserve good things, which is why you don't make a good faith effort to be happy. 1
Fletch Lives Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 Good job on the date! Even though she's not interested, it was good practice for you!
Sun Seeker Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 It's amazing how OP has no experience, no knowledge in regards to women, and then continues to ignore all advice from people that have the experience and have been a lot more successful with women. 4
elaine567 Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 10 minutes ago, Punterxx said: It's amazing how OP has no experience, no knowledge in regards to women, and then continues to ignore all advice from people that have the experience and have been a lot more successful with women. It's not really amazing, because he is too scared to take the advice, he has reached the limit of what he is prepared to do. He stops at the friendzone, because anything further is too much of a risk and he cannot fathom how to take it further. He is completely out of his depth... Until he can psyche himself up to try to take things past the friend zone with a woman, all else is moot. 1
Author ZA Dater Posted May 25, 2021 Author Posted May 25, 2021 15 hours ago, SumGuy said: I think the purpose is you help pay for their life and they provide company and sex. Likely they can't come right out and say that usually. This thing I believe is simply where certain women the money is enough for them to have interest. I believe it is much more involved than per hour. I don't want to judge how fake it is or is not, but yes it is a very transactional/materialistic approach to dating. However, you already seem to believe that is what it is all about in the end, just with a sugar coating. As you can't provide the sugar coating, why not? So if you truly believe that, here is your solution where you only need to have lots of money, don't need to change what you believe or work on yourself. Or within what I believe to be your philosophy, you could get supper built. That is within your capacity. Doesn't require you to change how you think or express yourself, just dedication to a workout, and possibly diet, routine. Otherwise the number one way is to establish connection, which means you need to lighten up, open your mind and be able to have a twinkle in your eye. That requires you to change your head, perhaps the easiest and hardest thing to do. I have been on sugar dates before and they are all on a per hour basis and I cannot say I found them very interesting at all because everything was an act and I always wondered what rubbish story I was being sold, then I thought as to why someone would do this, then I thought how many people has she met like this, then I thought is she on narcotics and and and when the pros and cons are tabulated there are more cons than pro's for me. I do believe in some respects is all about wealth and money but I am not paying that person per hour to sit with me and this fact alone means its never going to be the same as someone genuinely finding me attractive. Super built, again, why, it does not serve a purpose, my ugly face and everything else bad remains so. I work out to feel good about me not in the hope someone may find me attractive. The best way to fix me is a change of thinking brought on by a change of experience, that is what I am really looking for.
SumGuy Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 12 minutes ago, ZA Dater said: I have been on sugar dates before ... Fair enough, not use how it works I thought there were situations where it basically seemed like a prostitute on retainer. Also have seen ads for sights where it is basically women looking for guys with "lots" of money, or just high income...which may not be as high as one would think. So not a pay per hour. Not that I think transactional relationships are good in the slightest. Quote The best way to fix me is a change of thinking brought on by a change of experience, that is what I am really looking for. I think that is your Catch-22. For me it was after I changed my thinking (and feeling) that dating became less stressful, less mysterious (well, still the good kind of mystery) and fairly easy and natural. The experiences just happened. Hence my advice in general. That and you have been trying your current approach of the expereince first for how long?
Author ZA Dater Posted May 25, 2021 Author Posted May 25, 2021 6 minutes ago, SumGuy said: Fair enough, not use how it works I thought there were situations where it basically seemed like a prostitute on retainer. Also have seen ads for sights where it is basically women looking for guys with "lots" of money, or just high income...which may not be as high as one would think. So not a pay per hour. Not that I think transactional relationships are good in the slightest. I think that is your Catch-22. For me it was after I changed my thinking (and feeling) that dating became less stressful, less mysterious (well, still the good kind of mystery) and fairly easy and natural. The experiences just happened. Hence my advice in general. That and you have been trying your current approach of the expereince first for how long? I'll be quite frank here, what I have been trying to do is contrive the sort of experiences I actually want and to some extent this has worked, far better than OLD has. However, there are limitations to these contrived situations and the big con is I end up really liking them so once you like something you will look for it again and so on and so forth. Yes, OLD does not interest me because the experiences are never ones I actually want, spending cumulatively 14 days with someone in a variety of situations, being treated nicely, being able to be me, yes there is no sex, yes there is no intimacy but look at it from my point of view, I am around someone I really enjoy spending time with, I am not being charged per the hour, she has some friendly interest in me and I find her really attractive. Yes, much of it is contrived in some way or another but the feel good is off the charts for me. My thinking slants toward that because, again K, I do not see her often but when I do I enjoy time spent. I simply do not enjoy most dates, really I do not because there is never the experience I really want. Elaine is right, I cannot escalate, I would not know how to and when I have tried the experience has been terrible so again that is more baggage to add to a very heavy set of baggage I carry around with me. I have a dinner coming up, K is likely to come with me and that makes me smile more, just feels nice to have someone I really like around me, the fact they wont sleep with me, well its not ideal but there is so much GOOD around the whole situation.
Author ZA Dater Posted May 25, 2021 Author Posted May 25, 2021 13 hours ago, dramafreezone said: You don't believe you deserve good things, which is why you don't make a good faith effort to be happy. I actually used to believe this but when it never ever works and I get rejected over and over again then I believe I am probably getting what I deserve.
Weezy1973 Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 1 hour ago, ZA Dater said: The best way to fix me is a change of thinking brought on by a change of experience, that is what I am really looking for. That’s not the best way to fix things. Or even any way to fix things Experiences are neutral, it’s our beliefs that categorize them as “good” or “bad”. And we filter our experiences through our beliefs. You went in for a kiss once and were rejected. To you this was such a horrible experience that you’ve vowed never to do it again. To someone else, it would likely be meh, sometime you get the signals wrong. Apologize and move on. A type of therapy that would help you is called Cognitive (thoughts) Behavioral Therapy. It confronts your unhealthy thoughts at the same time as well as aims to get you to change your unhealthy / detrimental behaviors. Note that behaviors are easier to change than thoughts and beliefs. You’ve got the order wrong. A change in beliefs and behaviors will lead to better experiences, not the other way around.
elaine567 Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 15 hours ago, SumGuy said: Perhaps, and is the step too far creating performance anxiety? Hadn't thought about that. He hasn't got as far as performance anxiety. He is stuck at the stage before flirting. Flirting is showing romantic/sexual interest and he cannot flirt as showing romantic/sexual interest is too much. At that point he will have to put himself out on a limb, "Hey, I like you as more than a friend" and he then risks rejection or worse still an "Ugh, NO". so he won't do that... He refuses to jump that hurdle and is thus far more content to settle down into the cosier and far less stressful friendzone... 1
Author ZA Dater Posted May 25, 2021 Author Posted May 25, 2021 18 minutes ago, elaine567 said: He hasn't got as far as performance anxiety. He is stuck at the stage before flirting. Flirting is showing romantic/sexual interest and he cannot flirt as showing romantic/sexual interest is too much. At that point he will have to put himself out on a limb, "Hey, I like you as more than a friend" and he then risks rejection or worse still an "Ugh, NO". so he won't do that... He refuses to jump that hurdle and is thus far more content to settle down into the cosier and far less stressful friendzone... Risk versus reward. I need to get to the point where I feel the reward outweighs the risk and that never really happened for me that will only happen if I get to spent lots of time with the person and even then I need to weigh up the advantages of a friend with nothing at all. There also needs to be some indication she actually finds me attractive so the issue 1: Finding people I want to spend time with 2: People who want to spend time with me 3: People I find attractive 4: People are prepared to accept I am going to want to get to know them for a fairly long to feel comfortable with them. Why would anyone do this, in short they wont so its its just better to retain the friend and wonder what might have been.
Weezy1973 Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 53 minutes ago, elaine567 said: He refuses to jump that hurdle and is thus far more content to settle down into the cosier and far less stressful friendzone... Except he’s not content with this at all. If he were there wouldn’t be these endless threads...
elaine567 Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 5 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said: Except he’s not content with this at all. If he were there wouldn’t be these endless threads... I don't believe any man would be content either but the alternative is too scary for him to even contemplate. He distracts himself with these convoluted justification arguments...
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