Catfish

[ZA Dater]

55 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

You had to do a catfishing experiment to figure this out? Good looking people have more options. It doesn’t mean their love life is perfect though or without struggle. 

Certainly 100000000% better than mine that is for sure. 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, luiscasabuena said:

I really don't know you other than how you project yourself here so it's very very hard to assess if you're doing things the right way.

You mentioned about looks. Okay, that's not exactly unchangeable. As I said, working out is one way to improve it. You do it anyway but only to be healthy and feel good. Hmmm how about you try to do more... like you do it to pack on some muscles or improve your posture?

As you discovered that looks is crucial in dating, is there something you can do about it other than change women's preferences? 

As for the pictures, if you hate taking photographs, that emotion alone would reflect on the outcome. If you don't like something, you won't expect that it will produce a good outcome. Have you tried watching youtube videos coaching the viewers on how to make a good smile on camera?

The project part is interesting because for a few years I did actually try market myself, OLD and otherwise but I got absolutely nowhere because there was always someone with more or better or whatever so eventually I just gave up. I'd go out and for example, 3 guys and 4 ladies, I did not even bother trying to engage because ultimately I always lost out.

Dating for me has just become a dog eats dog game of well throw whatever you have and hope you have more than the competing guys, YES its not like this for everyone, I realize that some people find this a lot easier because, well preferences. 

What is very hard to unpack is years and years of being metaphorically kicked in the face, at least catfishing sort of made me feel a bit better. To be honest what has become clear is I need to either change how I go about this or I need to change what I want out of it. Maybe I need to go back to catfishing again, if nothing else I was made to feel at least falsely attractive.

[elaine567]

22 hours ago, Acacia98 said:

ZA Dater, you look like an average guy to me, like my next door neighbor, like a guy I went to school with. I don't see what the big deal is regarding your looks.

Exactly.
Average guys attract average and below average women, but ZA Dater does not want to attract average women, his sights are set a whole lot higher than that...

[elaine567]

I guess, you did this not to  conduct an "experiment" as it is glaringly obvious to all, that better looking people do better on OLD.
Why wouldn't they?
You did this to attract a better class of woman, in the hope you could sneak into  a world that had in effect closed its doors to you.
You hoped you could persuade these women you had tricked, into giving you a chance, but the world doesn't tend to work like that.
Good looking high quality women like the ones you desire, are looking for the "best" they can get.
Unfortunately when these women met the "real" you, they were  bewildered and unimpressed.
Because A) they did not like being deceived and B) they were always looking for "better", so average was never going to do.
 

Rather than seek to improve the real you, you seem to revel in living in a fantasy world... where one day your princess will come, like in the fairy tale.
BUT nothing is going to happen if she meets the same old, same old ZA Dater... 
 

[ZA Dater]

27 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Exactly.
Average guys attract average and below average women, but ZA Dater does not want to attract average women, his sights are set a whole lot higher than that...

Sorry but I may as well jump off a cliff if all I want to aspire to is average.

 

[ZA Dater]

10 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

I guess, you did this not to  conduct an "experiment" as it is glaringly obvious to all, that better looking people do better on OLD.
Why wouldn't they?
You did this to attract a better class of woman, in the hope you could sneak into  a world that had in effect closed its doors to you.
You hoped you could persuade these women you had tricked, into giving you a chance, but the world doesn't tend to work like that.
Good looking high quality women like the ones you desire, are looking for the "best" they can get.
Unfortunately when these women met the "real" you, they were  bewildered and unimpressed.
Because A) they did not like being deceived and B) they were always looking for "better", so average was never going to do.
 

Rather than seek to improve the real you, you seem to revel in living in a fantasy world... where one day your princess will come, like in the fairy tale.
BUT nothing is going to happen if she meets the same old, same old ZA Dater... 
 

Frankly it does not matter which version of me she meets because they are all equally unsuitable/undesirable. Yet, I sit with fake pictures and I do the same conversation about the same things, about the same interests, the life philosophy and well all of that is lovely and great. Again, yes pictures are the important part but do you not think its a bit of joke when I am not totally dis similar in build? This is why I know its my face which is very off putting. 

Nothing will ever happen because I will always be up against competition I cant ever hope to beat. What I like is one thing but the actual problem is the level of competition I face but to be fair here she can be beautiful and I will still find her uninteresting if all she wants to do is drink and party so socially the net becomes even smaller as to what is compatible. I actually do put a lot of premium on what I think can work and if I can see it wont work I wont ever try make it work so some logic is applied. I have spent a lot of time around dynamic, attractive people over the years, mostly I cant be bothered because there is just massive competition or total incompatibility. 

The real me has many good things just none that work in the context of dating and the single biggest problem here is a lack of experience. I do what I think is right but on reflection I either totally undersell or I totally make the wrong decision. Here I chat with people who because of a picture actually want to chat to me, the conversation is irrelevant to them I can talk about anything and they actually contribute.

I am good as the guy to call at 2am when your car does not start but dare I say I am not the guy to call if you want a romantic cuddle at the fire place because that just is not me. If you want someone to depend on I am the one to call, if you want someone to go to lunch with cool but the admission here is I simply do not know how to do romantic because every time I have tried its completely failed. That connection just does not work and I'll be honest I pay dearly for this stupidity. I cant really improve these things because its fundamentally things learnt with experience which I do not have.

You know what living in a fantasy world is actually ok, its a LOT less miserable than living in one where I know I am basically never ever going to find mutual attraction. I really used to believe I could achieve that but I do not anymore, I am in the game now for the odd scrap of attention here and there before they inevitably get what they want from me and then move on to what they really actually want. Catfishing got me some attention and gave me some normality.

If I could change things I'd do a lot of them in the past.

1: Actually go out with that athletic brunette who took a fancy to me in the first year of my degree. She had everything, looks intelligence and a great personality, what she saw in me I will never know.

2: Actually make friends in school and learn the things I should have then

3: Make better use of opportunities by being less selfless

There is not a lot I can do now, I am 37, well will be shortly, no kids, no friends, no prospects of either and so far behind the curve I might as well not bother, I brilliant at being the selfless supporting friend, brilliant at being the guy who gets things done, good at keeping everyone secrets, good at resolving conflict, good at being calm under pressure, seldom get really angry, good at problem solving but the irony is none of these things actually help me...they help others. All I have actually become is a useful person rather than an attractive one, this I did on purpose because it became obvious to me I was never going to be attractive enough so in order to sort of fit in somewhere I had to take what I was good at and use that as best I can.

[Trail Blazer]

Looks matter to both sexes.  Everyone knows this.  Women who say looks don't matter (as in at all) are women who can't attract a decent looking man.

Where I think you're getting your wires crossed is your black and white thinking that if looks matter somewhat then it must be an absolute.

In my opinion, looks are more important to men than women.  However, all people are individuals and as such, the results will vary from person to person.

Women are susceptible to being 'gamed' because in nature it is a man's role to chase, so those with game have honed their craft over time.

Good game comes from a combination of confidence, charisma and emotional intelligence.  Those traits are not mutually exclusive to just handsome men.

The problem with on-line dating apps is they significantly reduce the ability for guys to show game, because... well, it's not real life! 

When you can only show aspect of yourself then you're only going to be judged on those aspects.  Hence why OLD just doesn't work for many people.

You really have proved nothing.  Of course, looks matter.  But they matter more on-line than in real life when it comes to attracting a mate.

In any case, you do not have game, so you will not be able to negate your perceived bad looks.  I would say that OLD is your best bet, despite your current lack of success.

[ZA Dater]

48 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

Looks matter to both sexes.  Everyone knows this.  Women who say looks don't matter (as in at all) are women who can't attract a decent looking man.

Where I think you're getting your wires crossed is your black and white thinking that if looks matter somewhat then it must be an absolute.

In my opinion, looks are more important to men than women.  However, all people are individuals and as such, the results will vary from person to person.

Women are susceptible to being 'gamed' because in nature it is a man's role to chase, so those with game have honed their craft over time.

Good game comes from a combination of confidence, charisma and emotional intelligence.  Those traits are not mutually exclusive to just handsome men.

The problem with on-line dating apps is they significantly reduce the ability for guys to show game, because... well, it's not real life! 

When you can only show aspect of yourself then you're only going to be judged on those aspects.  Hence why OLD just doesn't work for many people.

You really have proved nothing.  Of course, looks matter.  But they matter more on-line than in real life when it comes to attracting a mate.

In any case, you do not have game, so you will not be able to negate your perceived bad looks.  I would say that OLD is your best bet, despite your current lack of success.

Or just catfish and get plenty of attention and conversation.

 

[Weezy1973]

2 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Or just catfish and get plenty of attention and conversation.

 

Which apparently leaves you unfulfilled if this thread is any indication. So not really a solution to anything is it?

Edited May 4, 2021 by Weezy1973

[SumGuy]

8 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Cant disagree with this at all. Problem is my moments are fun are inevitably accompanied by supercars and I am told those send all the wrong sorts of messages. 

Just crop out the supercar or make it not the focus of the pick.  You'll need a friend to help take the picture.  Some of my best were when I didn't know my picture was being taken.  

Even if you have supercars in your profile, words can do wonders to place that in context and address the messages you consider wrong.

[mark clemson]

I find it strange that anyone would "catfish" in lieu of having an actual relationship with a "just ok" woman. But I guess you do you - everyone's different. However, it must be said that this is not particularly fair to the women.

Of course (speaking generally) from everything I read women are certainly no strangers to using older photos, photoshop to slim/edit "flaws", and nowadays specifically designed automated photo filters to enhance their dating profile photos. So the old proverb that "all's fair in love and war" applies perhaps.

[mark clemson]

FWIW, I think that attractiveness (loosely defined to include looks AND other sexual "triggers" for women) is actually more important for men than for women. Apparently if you look at genetic data, about 80% of women manage to reproduce vs. around 50% of men. So if half of men don't reproduce, you definitely want to be in the top half.

I think that being "impressive" is important to women. I've also read that knowing that other women think you're attractive is one trigger for them (of many possible ones). So, presumably if it's extremely obvious that you're attractive, that presumably puts you ahead of the game.

[ZA Dater]

36 minutes ago, SumGuy said:

Just crop out the supercar or make it not the focus of the pick.  You'll need a friend to help take the picture.  Some of my best were when I didn't know my picture was being taken.  

Even if you have supercars in your profile, words can do wonders to place that in context and address the messages you consider wrong.

I did exactly that and yet still no better results and yea you are right natural photos are better but even then I look so awkward the result I am even more conscious.

It's easy to write things into context though.

[normal person]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Sorry but I may as well jump off a cliff if all I want to aspire to is average.

So you say you don't want average. Fine, then you need to accept that in order to get someone above average, it will require more effort and competition. However, you also say things like this:

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I'd go out and for example, 3 guys and 4 ladies, I did not even bother trying to engage because ultimately I always lost out.

You're upset that you don't have the results you want, but you're unwilling to do what's necessary to get them. It's almost like you don't understand how this works, and I know you do. Did you have to compete for your job, or did you not even bother trying? Why or why not? Do you currently have to compete for market share, profits, clients, margins, opportunities, visibility, and/or commissions? Why or why not? Do you want average results? Do you expect above average results for not trying?

Why don't you apply the same attitude you have in your love life towards your career and see what happens, then see if you're still confused. Answer yourself this: why would an above average woman want a man who can't even summon the courage to compete for her? Honestly. Other men are displaying their worthiness, competing, bidding, and you won't even do that. What, do you think she's going to overlook your refusal to compete with other men because it makes you seem so different and mysterious? Don't hold your breath, it won't work like that. She's got plenty of guys making their case, she doesn't need to expend the effort or the risk on someone who won't match the current bid. 

I'm not sure if you have them in South Africa, but in the US we have these awful reality shows like "The Bachelor" and "The Bachelorette." Basically, the heart of one very accomplished, attractive single person is competed for by 20 contestants who are constantly being eliminated. If there's someone the bachelor/bachelorette doesn't feel is making enough of an effort on the first meeting, the bachelor/bachelorette has no patience for them and sends them home. Why not? They have 15 other contestants who are tripping over themselves to compete and do whatever it takes to be with that person. What do they have to gain by rolling the dice on someone who doesn't seem interested, unless they have some superior, desirable, quality themselves? For a guaranteed effort expenditure and high risk of embarrassment, the chance that someone who doesn't seem interested might actually be interested. Why even risk it when there's less to gain for more effort? I'm not suggesting you watch the show because a lot of it is insufferable, contrived, and over dramatized, but it does illustrate this concept in a very understandable way that I'm not sure you understanding otherwise. 

Again, you need to understand that desirable things will require competition. If you won't compete, or if you won't match the current bid, you won't get what you want. It's that simple. 

Edited May 4, 2021 by normal person

[ZA Dater]

25 minutes ago, normal person said:

So you say you don't want average. Fine, then you need to accept that in order to get someone above average, it will require more effort and competition. However, you also say things like this:

You're upset that you don't have the results you want, but you're unwilling to do what's necessary to get them. It's almost like you don't understand how this works, and I know you do. Did you have to compete for your job, or did you not even bother trying? Why or why not? Do you currently have to compete for market share, profits, clients, margins, opportunities, visibility, and/or commissions? Why or why not? Do you want average results? Do you expect above average results for not trying?

Why don't you apply the same attitude you have in your love life towards your career and see what happens, then see if you're still confused. Answer yourself this: why would an above average woman want a man who can't even summon the courage to compete for her? Honestly. Other men are displaying their worthiness, competing, bidding, and you won't even do that. What, do you think she's going to overlook your refusal to compete with other men because it makes you seem so different and mysterious? Don't hold your breath, it won't work like that. She's got plenty of guys making their case, she doesn't need to expend the effort or the risk on someone who won't match the current bid. 

I'm not sure if you have them in South Africa, but in the US we have these awful reality shows like "The Bachelor" and "The Bachelorette." Basically, the heart of one very accomplished, attractive single person is competed for by 20 contestants who are constantly being eliminated. If there's someone the bachelor/bachelorette doesn't feel is making enough of an effort on the first meeting, the bachelor/bachelorette has no patience for them and sends them home. Why not? They have 15 other contestants who are tripping over themselves to compete and do whatever it takes to be with that person. What do they have to gain by rolling the dice on someone who doesn't seem interested, unless they have some superior, desirable, quality themselves? For a guaranteed effort expenditure and high risk of embarrassment, the chance that someone who doesn't seem interested might actually be interested. Why even risk it when there's less to gain for more effort? I'm not suggesting you watch the show because a lot of it is insufferable, contrived, and over dramatized, but it does illustrate this concept in a very understandable way that I'm not sure you understanding otherwise. 

Again, you need to understand that desirable things will require competition. If you won't compete, or if you won't match the current bid, you won't get what you want. It's that simple. 

Its very easy actually, when I work I know what I am doing and its a multitude of different things in different industries, I enjoy it because frankly I am learning each day with measurable results in improved efficiency, juggling numbers to get them to work, trying to hustle the odd deal here and there in a dead market. I have the tools I need to work in this chaotic environment and sort of make some degree of moderate success out of it. Even then the reward is sometimes just knowing I did something well.

Simply put I have no skills to make any success at all out of dating, when I sit and think how to approach it there are no ways at all which lead to any degree of success so I effectively wasted years investing in something I had not tools to ever make  a success of. When you are sitting with guys who are mega successful, trust me those ladies are not interested in the least successful guy in the room and the least good looking and the least fun and the least, well you see where this goes really.

Where I HAVE had success is being the useful guy, being the guy who gets things done, why because I am good at that, I am good at being thoughtful, I am good at being reliable, I am good at listening without judgement, I am good at giving honest advice. None of this matters when you are sitting in a club or a bar, there its how fun are you, what you are drinking, how much banter you can do. I have bet ALL my chances of success on finding someone who sees some value in those things, I can be social, I can add to a conversation but honestly when I know I am never going to get a look in why bother.  Work I get measurable improvements even when there result is not fantastic, I manage endless different tasks a day and I like that challenge, dating give me no real improvements at all.

When I HAVE thrown everything but the kitchen sink at dating was when I felt I had a legitimate horse in the race and thought I could based on the facts eek out a decent result but again that never works so I go back to square one hoping to find that scenario again which never happens really. Its about marketing the posters are right, he who markets best will do better but its very hard to see what I have to actually market because I spent years trying to sell and got no takers really. I am actually tired of trying with neither measurable improvement nor better results.

I can take poor results with better improvement but there is none of that to be had.

Yeah I am familiar with that contrived show, if anything it shows the dating world exactly the way I see it. He with the most ultimately does the best. 

I do believe I have something to offer someone. I have not issue in competing, I quite enjoy that part IF I can sense I am in the race but I am also pragmatic, why would someone who can have A want me who is Z? Last time I fell into the trap of believing I actually had a chance and that was nice but where did it get me, nowhere as it normally does. Eventually the game starts to loose its appeal, so catfish have some decent conversations, meet nobody, feel better about myself, delude myself I am can actually date people like this, see that attractive people also use OLD, pretty pathetic all of it but better than sitting in a corner at a club or restaurant on my own. 

In short I just do not feel I have any tools to enable compete and its like taking a knife to fight a tank, there is something worse than low confidence and that is the sympathy vote, honestly I'd rather be told I look like a horses behind than get handled with the sympathy vote. 

You live in NYC so you tell me how you compete against the fund mangers making six figures a year, unfortunately for me I have developed Patek taste with a Casio budget.

[normal person]

52 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Its very easy actually, when I work I know what I am doing and its a multitude of different things in different industries, I enjoy it because frankly I am learning each day with measurable results in improved efficiency, juggling numbers to get them to work, trying to hustle the odd deal here and there in a dead market. I have the tools I need to work in this chaotic environment and sort of make some degree of moderate success out of it. Even then the reward is sometimes just knowing I did something well.

This wasn't really the point. What I'm trying to illustrate is that if you want something desirable like a woman, or money, you'll likely have to compete for it, which you're hesitant to do. The desirability and scarcity of the thing will increase the competition for it. Let's assume these desirable things aren't "average." You don't want an average woman, but you won't compete for an above average one. You want to win the auction without even bidding. Someone in your position will have to bid -- it doesn't seem like you have the tools to bypass the process in a lot of cases. This is what your experiment proved. Some men, like the ones whose pictures you used, won't need to bid or compete (or at least not as hard) for the women you've catfished. So if you want to win the auction, you'll need to prove your worth more than these guys. Do you understand?

52 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Where I HAVE had success is being the useful guy, being the guy who gets things done, why because I am good at that, I am good at being thoughtful, I am good at being reliable, I am good at listening without judgement, I am good at giving honest advice. None of this matters when you are sitting in a club or a bar, there its how fun are you, what you are drinking, how much banter you can do.

Being useful, productive, reliable are all great traits but they don't exist in a vacuum. If those things alone aren't enough to get your foot in the door, then you'll need to also compete on those different grounds as well. Those men who can be fun might eventually lose on the grounds of unreliability, where you would win if you could get to that point. If I were you, I'd try to be the best person I could be: reliable, productive, and fun, engaging. Then not only would they want to give you the time of day, they'd stick around afterwards when they realize what a great guy you are too. 

52 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Yeah I am familiar with that contrived show, if anything it shows the dating world exactly the way I see it. He with the most ultimately does the best.

The broader point was that "he who won't compete, or thinks he's above the process, won't even be considered." That's you. You're hoping this won't be the case some day, but I don't see it happening. 

52 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

In short I just do not feel I have any tools to enable compete and its like taking a knife to fight a tank

That isn't going to change anything and the more you think it's hopeless, the more you continue acting as you have been, the less successful you'll be. Self-fulfilling. Some people deal with their limitations and find a way to overcome them, most likely through trial and error. Doubtful anyone ever did it by not thinking it was possible, or by trying a few things and giving up.

52 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

You live in NYC so you tell me how you compete against the fund mangers making six figures a year

I competed and won. I learned from past mistakes, I learned from every new experience, I treated every woman respectfully, I didn't take advantage of people when I could have (even when others did to me), I spent thousands of dollars on 100+ dates with people it never ended working out with, I went to the gym religiously, I worked hard to correct a lot of my less favorable behaviors and to adapt to the landscape but didn't compromise my identity, started a business that everyone thought was crazy, and became a millionaire at 31. 'Got married last year to an incredible woman, and am very happy I did all those things and continue to do them for the most part. I wouldn't be able to live with the regret of not doing them, or at least not trying to the best of my ability. Did I do everything perfectly? No. Do I have a few regrets? Yes, but nothing that keeps me up at night. Was it easy? Not always. Was it worth it? Yes. 

 

[dramafreezone]

On 5/2/2021 at 6:25 AM, ZA Dater said:

This may prove to be a deeply unpopular topic so mods if you deem fit either delete or close. Anyone here thought about this or done it? If you have how did your results change when looking and how did they change?

Is there any advantage in this, clearly there is not but let us suppose doing so means you perhaps are able to get a better idea how looks impede or assist you when searching. Lets also assume nobody who looks ever gets any critique, thus this might be a way to get some form of critique. 

I'll admit to having done this before and I can already see which members here are going to climb into me for doing it, do not worry I have thick skin. Why did I do it, well after years of various OLD platforms and not going any attractive matches I wanted to see how a change of look would change my prospects but I also wanted to see how a change of look would change the level of engagement. 

For the purposes of this I used no face pictures at all, merely body pictures (I have established my face is a serious dating impediment but then again it would seem all of my appearance is an impediment) of a more built person, nothing dramatic and the results were more matches but more interesting was a different level of engagement, suddenly women were actually making an effort in conversation, they were asking things, they actually wanted to meet up. Using my own pictures, I seldom had any matches and when I did the conversation was like squeezing water from a stone, I always got the impression I had to sell myself to them, whereas now they were selling themselves to me.

More amusing still was the fact that MANY told me looks do not matter, well they did actually but you can draw the lines between the dots here. Did I got and meet any of these people, yes I did actually and you know what I actually did not care either because on each occasion the conversation was very good before meeting, it was a case "you are so interesting to chat, you have such an interesting life" but suddenly in person those aspects did not matter. I repeat again "looks do not matter to me". 

Would I do this again, absolutely not because its pointless and I have proven all I needed to prove with this. Did it make me feel a bit better about things, in a way yes because if you can understand why something happens than you can rationalise it.

Whoever told you looks don't matter lied to you.

Are looks all that matter?  Of course not, but they do.

And so what?  Looks matter to you too.  You've said repeatedly that you don't even want to date someone unless they're extremely attractive, so you can't occupy the moral high ground here.

Your biggest issue is you know what women like, you just put no effort into being that or resembling it in the slightest.  You have your ideas of what you think women should like (like being a nice guy), but it doesn't mean anything. 

You don't get to decide what women like.  What women like is pretty much established.   Everyone has to play by the same rules, you're not special in that regard.  The ones that you think don't have to compete had to learn how to talk to women, had to earn their money, had to get in shape.  They worked for that.

Edited May 4, 2021 by dramafreezone

[ZA Dater]

43 minutes ago, normal person said:

This wasn't really the point. What I'm trying to illustrate is that if you want something desirable like a woman, or money, you'll likely have to compete for it, which you're hesitant to do. The desirability and scarcity of the thing will increase the competition for it. Let's assume these desirable things aren't "average." You don't want an average woman, but you won't compete for an above average one. You want to win the auction without even bidding. Someone in your position will have to bid -- it doesn't seem like you have the tools to bypass the process in a lot of cases. This is what your experiment proved. Some men, like the ones whose pictures you used, won't need to bid or compete (or at least not as hard) for the women you've catfished. So if you want to win the auction, you'll need to prove your worth more than these guys. Do you understand?

Being useful, productive, reliable are all great traits but they don't exist in a vacuum. If those things alone aren't enough to get your foot in the door, then you'll need to also compete on those different grounds as well. Those men who can be fun might eventually lose on the grounds of unreliability, where you would win if you could get to that point. If I were you, I'd try to be the best person I could be: reliable, productive, and fun, engaging. Then not only would they want to give you the time of day, they'd stick around afterwards when they realize what a great guy you are too. 

The broader point was that "he who won't compete, or thinks he's above the process, won't even be considered." That's you. You're hoping this won't be the case some day, but I don't see it happening. 

That isn't going to change anything and the more you think it's hopeless, the more you continue acting as you have been, the less successful you'll be. Self-fulfilling. Some people deal with their limitations and find a way to overcome them, most likely through trial and error. Doubtful anyone ever did it by not thinking it was possible, or by trying a few things and giving up.

I competed and won. I learned from past mistakes, I learned from every new experience, I treated every woman respectfully, I didn't take advantage of people when I could have (even when others did to me), I spent thousands of dollars on 100+ dates with people it never ended working out with, I went to the gym religiously, I worked hard to correct a lot of my less favorable behaviors and to adapt to the landscape but didn't compromise my identity, started a business that everyone thought was crazy, and became a millionaire at 31. 'Got married last year to an incredible woman, and am very happy I did all those things and continue to do them for the most part. I wouldn't be able to live with the regret of not doing them, or at least not trying to the best of my ability. Did I do everything perfectly? No. Do I have a few regrets? Yes, but nothing that keeps me up at night. Was it easy? Not always. Was it worth it? Yes. 

 

Well I am glad the ultimate result is worth it. Point is when I do compete there is always someone with more and to be frank I simply do not have anything that makes me stand out and people actually want, is that not the point really, have something that someone else wants and deems to be desirable. Cutting off my face is not really an option so that is off the table. Its pointless bidding on items you know you cant afford so what I effectively do is window shop. 

Sure, but those men never loose ever because their good looks and other things make up for any unreliability, there is seldom a fundamental enough floor and yo are talking to someone who has tried for YEARS to chase people he liked who were in relationships with men who messed them around, it was never a problem because I was always there to pick up the pieces and be Mr reliable, they still ran back to those men over and over again.

Eventually a person just cuts their losses and does whatever gives them just a tiny bit of what they want and if being a catfish is all I can do well then so be it. I also suspect this is why the pay business does as well as it does for exactly this reason, people eventually just give up.

Competing against men who dont need to compete is frankly pointless because I have lost before I even started, so what do I really accomplish there, I am happy to try the impossible but I need an idea there is a modicum of possibility of success, like there was last time but no surprise I lost out to the better looking guy with more wealth, no real surprise there either.

Success you work for, the more I put into dating the less I get out so what is the point really? At the end of the day the world does not give a f so maybe I need to adopt the same mentality.

Oh and being the supposed reliable great guy counts for nothing either if the other guy is better looking. Again if I had the tools to compete I would but its flipping pointless going up against people who do not have to compete and then expecting to somehow win against them, seems pointless to me so yeah I get why people just settle who whoever likes them irrespective. Me, I'd rather have nothing that live what for me would be a miserable existence worse then being alone.

[ZA Dater]

11 minutes ago, dramafreezone said:

Whoever told you looks don't matter lied to you.

Are looks all that matter?  Of course not, but they do.

And so what?  Looks matter to you too.  You've said repeatedly that you don't even want to date someone unless they're extremely attractive, so you can't occupy the moral high ground here.

Your biggest issue is you know what women like, you just put no effort into being that or resembling it in the slightest.  You have your ideas of what you think women should like (like being a nice guy), but it doesn't mean anything. 

You don't get to decide what women like.  What women like is pretty much established.   Everyone has to play by the same rules, you're not special in that regard.

You see we are all brought up and told we are handsome and whatever other rubbish we get told, I'd have rather been told I was ugly, could have saved me years of wasting time.

Looks matter as this has proven they matter the most, 30min of chatting she was inviting me over. In 20 years of trying to dating I haven't been asked over once, at least by anyone who is my equivalent looks wise.

Extremely attractive to me is a pretty face and slim body, hardly setting the bar high really.

No this experience has given me a new shot of extra bitter, extra jaded, which works well actually, best medicine. 

Rules, there are rules? Last time I checked deception and deceit were fair, even I indulge in them. Sit there tell her she is so fantastic amazing all with the aim of taking her home for one night. No please enlighten me about the rules if I actually like to get to know someone as a person rather than an object of one night of fun. Oh no that doesn't work...I have been there lost out every single time.

It's ok I'll take my scraps of fake success, the more I look, the more I learn, the less excited I am and to be frank the more I learn the worse I feel. I should be so fortunate at least I got some fake success even if it was because I am such a basket case she probably just felt sorry for me so gave me some attention.

[dramafreezone]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

You see we are all brought up and told we are handsome and whatever other rubbish we get told, I'd have rather been told I was ugly, could have saved me years of wasting time.

Looks matter as this has proven they matter the most, 30min of chatting she was inviting me over. In 20 years of trying to dating I haven't been asked over once, at least by anyone who is my equivalent looks wise.

 

Every loving parent thinks their kids are beautiful.  And yes looks matter, to you too.  How can you harbor this feeling of indignation that your looks matter when you say you have to have a pretty face and a slim body, which is want 99% of guys in the world want by the way.  So it is a high bar.  Looks matter to you but you don't think they should matter to women, is that about right?  Why don't you date someone with a nice personality?  Why isn't that enough for you?

Quote

Rules, there are rules? Last time I checked deception and deceit were fair, even I indulge in them. Sit there tell her she is so fantastic amazing all with the aim of taking her home for one night. No please enlighten me about the rules if I actually like to get to know someone as a person rather than an object of one night of fun. Oh no that doesn't work...I have been there lost out every single time.

Yes women love flattery, compliments.  They love to feel beautiful.  It's not enough that they're objectively beautiful, they want people to tell them.  They would rather have sex with that guy that makes them feel amazing for one night than get to know the nice guy that doesn't make them feel anything.

[Trail Blazer]

6 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Or just catfish and get plenty of attention and conversation.

 

To what end?  Are you looking for attention or a relationship?  Living vicariously through someone else's image would become unfulfilling very quickly.

[Trail Blazer]

On 5/3/2021 at 10:33 PM, chillii said:

l dunno man , back in the day 90% of the women on a date site l used were nothing at all to look at , probably 60% of that were downright scary.

Funny , well not really but when l read the start l thought you were gonna start talking plastic surgery. But anyway ok , l'm convinced , your city is chock full of very shallow very not even worth getting to know anyway ,women.  Seems to be a mentality going on there like no other, l'd move . But eh, one could also call it karma too bc l seem to remember you meeting some nice girls that were interested but they weren't pretty enough.

That is not true at all from my experience (experiment) on Tinder.

[Trail Blazer]

9 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Sorry but I may as well jump off a cliff if all I want to aspire to is average.

 

But you're average, or perhaps far below average when it comes to the emotional engagement component of courting women. 

So, how do you reconcile your below-average position in the dating sphere with your desire to date the above-average woman?

[basil67]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Rules, there are rules? Last time I checked deception and deceit were fair, even I indulge in them. Sit there tell her she is so fantastic amazing all with the aim of taking her home for one night. No please enlighten me about the rules if I actually like to get to know someone as a person rather than an object of one night of fun. Oh no that doesn't work...I have been there lost out every single time.

Yes, it's true that many women like a compliment.  But for the love of god, don't do them all at one time!    It's very poor game because it's lazy and transparent.   One compliment as part of a broader flirt will be far more successful.  

Getting to know a women with the goal of a relationship is really not that different.  Enjoyable conversation, flirting, smiling, creating connection, showing yourself as a sexual being and making her feel desired.   Thing is, the foundation of wanting a relationship is sexual desire.  If the sexual desire isn't stoked, then it's just a friendship.  And when you ask her out, don't be ambiguous.  Make sure she knows it's a date.  

Edited May 5, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[dramafreezone]

 

1 hour ago, Trail Blazer said:

But you're average, or perhaps far below average when it comes to the emotional engagement component of courting women. 

So, how do you reconcile your below-average position in the dating sphere with your desire to date the above-average woman?

I've seen good looking guys who were completely inept with women.  Sure they get the dates but they can't close with anyone other than the women that see them as a 10.  OP is just using the looks hangup as a excuse to not compete.

Edited May 5, 2021 by dramafreezone