Catfish

[Acacia98]

I wouldn't do the catfishing thing on a dating site. My worry would be that I'd meet someone I liked and wouldn't be able to progress with them because I'd have to reveal that I'd been deceptive. But it is interesting to read about your experience and how it gave you a bit of a boost @ZA Dater. I have had the experience of having 2 handles on a forum: one attached to a pseudonym and another attached to my real name. And I found it strange that, though I expressed myself the same way using both handles, people reacted to them differently. 

I think people on dating apps/sites tend towards being superficial because that's the nature of the game (online dating): personally, I can't thrive in that context. So I don't bother. I'm more attracted to people whose values or interests I share and people who are cerebral. So I'd be more inclined to date someone I met in a discussion group focused on one of my personal interests (e.g. a book group) or in an organization we were both volunteering for.

And I honestly can't relate to much of the dating ideology many folks on forums such as this one subscribe to either. Some of y'all talk a lot about looks, but in the world around me, I see average-looking or unremarkable-looking people going out on dates and pairing up and all that. Even people with conditions who get discriminated against by society and experience bullying for "looking weird" still meet people who love them and are attracted to them. Dating in the real world is not as bleak as some of the discussions make it sound.

ZA Dater, you look like an average guy to me, like my next door neighbor, like a guy I went to school with. I don't see what the big deal is regarding your looks.

[jspice]

48 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Sure ok. Seems you know the city better than and I and I have lived here my entire life. Sure if trace parties are your things yeah there is endless choice. Or sitting playing guitar and smoking green stuff, endless choice there too.

Funnily enough lots are on dating apps but like a good store desirable items sell quickly.

Nevertheless none of that fully explains the difference in engagement, all of which is determined by a picture. If as they say look's matter so little then catfishing would not matter. I am slim and have some muscle tone but that gym jock build, it's all that matters I tell you.

Every South African person on here has refuted your claims yet you persist. 
 

The truth is no, you’re not attractive enough to get a date based on your looks. 
People who are average or even below average looking get by on a great personality which makes them more and more attractive. By your own admission you’re not fun, can’t flirt, don’t laugh. No swagger. 

So if you don’t have a fun personality and you don’t have attractive looks, what do you have? Please don’t write you’re loyal and dependable. Those two things alone mean nothing. 
 

You did this “experiment “ ages ago. Why are we talking about it again? 

[ZA Dater]

26 minutes ago, Acacia98 said:

I wouldn't do the catfishing thing on a dating site. My worry would be that I'd meet someone I liked and wouldn't be able to progress with them because I'd have to reveal that I'd been deceptive. But it is interesting to read about your experience and how it gave you a bit of a boost @ZA Dater. I have had the experience of having 2 handles on a forum: one attached to a pseudonym and another attached to my real name. And I found it strange that, though I expressed myself the same way using both handles, people reacted to them differently. 

 

That is what interested me was how very different the interaction was, effectively I communicate the same way but the results were entirely different. Look its not a good way to go about things but I did satisfy my curiosity and sure I did actually met a few I did like but I also knew they would not like me anyway so I just got to live vicariously. I disagree that you fundamentally need to change the way you interact with people because while you might to more charming to one there should not be radical differences in my opinion.

My intention was never to try progress because it would be like attempting to compete at Olympic swimming when you learnt to swim three days prior.

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, jspice said:

Every South African person on here has refuted your claims yet you persist. 
 

The truth is no, you’re not attractive enough to get a date based on your looks. 
People who are average or even below average looking get by on a great personality which makes them more and more attractive. By your own admission you’re not fun, can’t flirt, don’t laugh. No swagger. 

So if you don’t have a fun personality and you don’t have attractive looks, what do you have? Please don’t write you’re loyal and dependable. Those two things alone mean nothing. 
 

You did this “experiment “ ages ago. Why are we talking about it again? 

So much aggression. 

Every South African on here....huge crowd. At least the last one was honest enough to admit cliques exist, kudos.

The entire point of my post was lost on you. Its simply about differing levels of interaction based on a picture which I think is ridiculous. Can you honestly tell me when you do OLD you throw yourself more at some people than others, oh wait I do not think you do OLD or probably do not have to.....

As for what I have, plenty actually. I am not ashamed of who I am and what I stand for and I'll back myself in a debate with people, even those with two degrees. Never cared for book smart personally.

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Oh I thought the profile mattered. Oh dear how wrong am I.

Not with Tinder or Bumble. Or most OLD really. A relationship oriented site like eHarmony might put more emphasis on the profile, but even then I’d say it’s about a 50/50 weighting with pics. That’s the nature of the beast. And please note I’m saying pics, not looks.

[Weezy1973]

12 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Its simply about differing levels of interaction based on a picture which I think is ridiculous.

I can’t believe you don’t understand this. OLD is a visual pic based platform, especially low investment apps like Tinder and Bumble. Of course more attractive people get more attractive options. That seems like common sense doesn’t it?

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Not with Tinder or Bumble. Or most OLD really. A relationship oriented site like eHarmony might put more emphasis on the profile, but even then I’d say it’s about a 50/50 weighting with pics. That’s the nature of the beast. And please note I’m saying pics, not looks.

Sure pictures are important, I do not dispute that but I also do not think mine are terrible either. Yes, I do not have friends holding beers or pictures of me goofing around but I do think what I did put up was pretty representative of me as a person. The novel I am writing does sometimes attract some interest as a point of profile interest but hardly the sort of interest a different sort of picture gets. 

It was interesting to see how easy decent looks make it, at least getting matches is easier. I am sure people with radiant personalities can work wonders but I do think even they might struggle on OLD. 

Then again how many people even read profiles...that is a debatable point.

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, Weezy1973 said:

I can’t believe you don’t understand this. OLD is a visual pic based platform, especially low investment apps like Tinder and Bumble. Of course more attractive people get more attractive options. That seems like common sense doesn’t it?

What I cannot fathom is this

1: I go on with my normal pictures, by some miracle get a match I do like and start chatting, the conversation is like squeezing water out of a rock and she puts in zero effort.

2: Catfish and well the conversation flows because she is interested, heck I can say pretty much what I like and there is interaction and interest.

On point one the person matched with me but shows next to zero enthusiasm and point 2 well they have lots of enthusiasm.

I suppose all these apps do is over visualize dating.

[jspice]

26 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

So much aggression. 

Every South African on here....huge crowd. At least the last one was honest enough to admit cliques exist, kudos.

The entire point of my post was lost on you. Its simply about differing levels of interaction based on a picture which I think is ridiculous. Can you honestly tell me when you do OLD you throw yourself more at some people than others, oh wait I do not think you do OLD or probably do not have to.....

As for what I have, plenty actually. I am not ashamed of who I am and what I stand for and I'll back myself in a debate with people, even those with two degrees. Never cared for book smart personally.

Where’s the “aggression”. I’m merely agreeing with what you repeat ad nauseum. 
I thought you valued book smarts because that is why you never dated, right? Because you were too busy studying. 
You can be as snarky as you like but no woman wants to date a man who wants to “debate”. No woman wants to date a man who has nothing to offer in terms of looks or personality. You’ve got to have one or the other. 
 

I do online date. A lot. And? 
 

Your catfishing hasn’t gotten you any closer to a date, has it? 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, jspice said:

Where’s the “aggression”. I’m merely agreeing with what you repeat ad nauseum. 
I thought you valued book smarts because that is why you never dated, right? Because you were too busy studying. 
You can be as snarky as you like but no woman wants to date a man who wants to “debate”. No woman wants to date a man who has nothing to offer in terms of looks or personality. You’ve got to have one or the other. 
 

I do online date. A lot. And? 
 

Your catfishing hasn’t gotten you any closer to a date, has it? 

No it has not but it has actually be quite helpful at rationalising things. 

I'll take your no woman comment under advisement. Perhaps its no surprise that I actually got along quite well with an attorney, she seemed to quite enjoy my banter or was it my profile pictures, cannot quite recall. 

Don't worry I know my place, on the sidelines watching the game.  Oh my, best I start finding that personality then. Oh wait I don't have one. Looks, nah do not tick that box either, dating ambition, yeah plenty of that to go around. Then again I'd argue most of the people I meet have either looks or personality, at least I do not belong to a very exclusive club.

It is interesting to try understand the game even if I cannot play it. Studying, yeah it was lot nicer than going to clubs and getting drunk. Choices eh. Oh and for the record I knew at 16 I'd be useless at dating, I have just been trying to convince myself otherwise for 21 years.

At least the catfish experiment gave me an idea of the experience most others get to enjoy, quite different to what I have experienced. Its kinda nice actually to be wanted. All is not lost I am everyone's favourite confidant, the keeper of secrets, the the pillar of strength, the one who removes emotions from every decision, the one who gives the most honest advice and the one to call who will never let you down.  Its not utopia but its better than nothing. Better to be useful useless than useless useless.

Maybe window shopping is better. 

 

 

 

[Weezy1973]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

What I cannot fathom is this

1: I go on with my normal pictures, by some miracle get a match I do like and start chatting, the conversation is like squeezing water out of a rock and she puts in zero effort.

2: Catfish and well the conversation flows because she is interested, heck I can say pretty much what I like and there is interaction and interest.

On point one the person matched with me but shows next to zero enthusiasm and point 2 well they have lots of enthusiasm.

I suppose all these apps do is over visualize dating.

You’re assuming the cause of this is the different pictures. It could be. But it might be that you were more confident in scenario 2 because you do not have any confidence in your looks and you were catfishing. Maybe the ease of conversation was driven on your side. 
 

As I’ve said many times, your default belief is that any woman you’re attracted to won’t be attracted to you which absolutely guarantees failure. You’ll have zero confidence when taking to a potential date. 
 

But what’s most likely is that there are two different women, with completely different personalities and life experience. You have no idea what was going on in either of their minds when they were talking to “real” you or “catfish” you. And making an assumption that it was your pics when you actually have no idea (you’re not psychic as far as I know) is just basic confirmation bias. 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Weezy1973

[ZA Dater]

57 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

You’re assuming the cause of this is the different pictures. It could be. But it might be that you were more confident in scenario 2 because you do not have any confidence in your looks and you were catfishing. Maybe the ease of conversation was driven on your side. 
 

As I’ve said many times, your default belief is that any woman you’re attracted to won’t be attracted to you which absolutely guarantees failure. You’ll have zero confidence when taking to a potential date. 
 

But what’s most likely is that there are two different women, with completely different personalities and life experience. You have no idea what was going on in either of their minds when they were talking to “real” you or “catfish” you. And making an assumption that it was your pics when you actually have no idea (you’re not psychic as far as I know) is just basic confirmation bias. 

Well some of that may be on point but still there seems to be considerably more enthusiasm in conversation with attractive pictures. 

Confidence inspires confidence. As confident is someone is with me I am with them. I just think that sure personality this and that but @jspice is right you actually need both in fair proportion.

What is for certain is I can never attract theses people with my own pics.

[Weezy1973]

6 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

What is for certain is I can never attract theses people with my own pics.

Without a doubt. I think we can all agree that any dating format that is largely based on looks like OLD or bars and clubs is not going to be your best option. Fair enough. Not really a problem. Except of course you’re not willing to try any other method. 

[mark clemson]

On 5/2/2021 at 7:41 AM, elaine567 said:

When women say it is not about the looks they generally mean they are not looking for a guy with film star good looks, but they will still have a cut off point as to how far below that they will go. That cut off point will depend on the woman and how attractive the whole  package presented is.
A guy who is otherwise sexy or has a great personality or is rich or who she has a lot in common with, may be someone she will give a chance to, despite him falling below her cut off point looks wise. 
She may lower her cut off point just for him.

^^ per the above, IF you could bump up other aspects of yourself, you might do ok. But that is easier said than done.

IIRC you are rich, which could certainly help quite a bit. However, if you fear becoming emotionally or otherwise attached to a gold-digger, that is quite understandable.

IF sugar-daddying is legal in your jurisdiction (and that would be a question for a lawyer), that might be something to consider if you strictly follow all necessary rules to ensure you're not engaging in prostitution. This might be helpful to gain some experience with women and perhaps some additional confidence, etc.

Although looks are very important for the initial "draw", how you come across overall is extremely important as well.  I also think if a women genuinely develops strong feelings for you "despite" looks, then they will not matter to her. However, both women and men are emotional creatures and generally there has to be something creating a draw, even if it's just familiarity, in order for strong feelings to start developing.  Money might indeed be that thing, for some women, however if it starts with that, I can totally see how that creates a trust issue.

[SumGuy]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

....Then again how many people even read profiles...that is a debatable point.

Every woman ever went on date with from OLD, and me and everyone I know who does OLD.  But again, no one is relying on Tinder and the like.  Yes your lead picture is important...for a while mine was a landscape...didn't seem to matter got plenty of interest and no changes could discern when the OLD made me use a human.  Knowing I do not photograph too well, my bar is pretty low on a pic, so always look at the bio...have passed on many a hot woman matched with, after reading her bio.

Number one comment I got on my pics of me is she liked my smile.   I also photograph horribly when I am posing, can do serious for professional photos but they do a lot of shots...I am clearly not a natural at the medium.   However, when people catch me in the moment of fun...I come out looking pretty good.  Long way of saying, if you cannot show a little soul, you are going to have a hard time attracting women who are just as interested in your soul as your face.

Edited May 3, 2021 by SumGuy

[SumGuy]

4 hours ago, jspice said:

....
You can be as snarky as you like but no woman wants to date a man who wants to “debate”.

Men call it "debate" women call it Correctile Dysfunction  

[jspice]

16 minutes ago, SumGuy said:

Men call it "debate" women call it Correctile Dysfunction  

Every woman’s dream 🥰🤣

[elaine567]

8 hours ago, mark clemson said:

IF sugar-daddying is legal in your jurisdiction (and that would be a question for a lawyer), that might be something to consider if you strictly follow all necessary rules to ensure you're not engaging in prostitution. This might be helpful to gain some experience with women and perhaps some additional confidence, etc

He has dabbled in paid for dates but  he is not a guy motivated by sex, so the fakeness of the whole arrangement means it does not work for him...
Some men as long as they get sex are not worried about whether she actually likes him or not.
ZA wants and needs a woman who wants to be by his side, not a woman who is only by his side because he pays her to be.
He needs a gf, not an escort.

[ZA Dater]

27 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

He has dabbled in paid for dates but  he is not a guy motivated by sex, so the fakeness of the whole arrangement means it does not work for him...
Some men as long as they get sex are not worried about whether she actually likes him or not.
ZA wants and needs a woman who wants to be by his side, not a woman who is only by his side because he pays her to be.
He needs a gf, not an escort.

The idea of sleeping with someone I feel nothing for is completely unappealing,. Again though its amazing how much more sexual attention one gets with a different picture....

The ironic thing about the arrangement thing is by and large I have found these ladies to be more interesting than the regular one I match with on dating sites, probably because so much of what they do is marketing and double speak and they need to lavish attention but inherently the entire interaction is fake and that is impossible for me to ignore.

Sure, I'd like to have sex one day with someone I actually feel something for but that would seem like a total impossibility considering the vast number of red flags I have. Where I totally agree with most here is it is marketing, a lot of marketing, so much of dating is marketing.

My mindset is not one geared to marketing at all. When a picture is good enough you do not need to do much marketing, how much overt marketing do attractive people do, probably a lot less than unattractive people. However even I try and raise my game when I find someone I really like and then its a case of yes I need to do some marketing here, I need to try put a better foot forward, I need to showcase who I am but part of me thinks when you need to do too much of that you have lost the battle before it even starts because ABC with his six pack picture on a boat of Monaco already has you 100% beaten. 

I have learnt more this year than in the prior 20 about dating, I have also had better experiences this year than any other and the biggest thing I have learnt is you absolutely CANNOT win from a position of loss. I also cannot overcome a lack of "things" either. Again I think a good picture and very good marketing with generic good looks mean you start from a neutral position you can build from, then yes I agree personality can help, banter can help, heck even "fun" can help.

But it all starts with an attraction of some sorts, if you cannot generate that you have lost from the start.

 

[ZA Dater]

11 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Without a doubt. I think we can all agree that any dating format that is largely based on looks like OLD or bars and clubs is not going to be your best option. Fair enough. Not really a problem. Except of course you’re not willing to try any other method. 

Well in fact all the people I know find some degree of success at OLD, bars, festivals, clubs so when you take those out of the equation there is not very much left. I'll be honest the fact I do not like those places puts me in a poor position to interact and date, for me I'd rather go driving with associates on a Sunday morning, have breakfast and go home than sit at a bar till 2am hoping miss blond who has 200 choices in the room picks me to go home with and even then I'd probably say no. 

The things I actually want to do have so little appeal to people, for example going for lunch at a wine farm, going away for a few days to boutique hotel. Suddenly with a different picture people were more receptive to these ideas, again its a complete communication change. People here are not wrong, there needs to be something about a person that stands out and makes people wan to be with them, I just do not have that.

For example I know I am a very thoughtful person so when someone tells me something I take note and remember this, so its nice to get people gifts knowing what they like and seeing their reaction when they get them. 

Almost the sole interaction during a day is with clients so when I meet people I just default to that.

[ZA Dater]

10 hours ago, SumGuy said:

Every woman ever went on date with from OLD, and me and everyone I know who does OLD.  But again, no one is relying on Tinder and the like.  Yes your lead picture is important...for a while mine was a landscape...didn't seem to matter got plenty of interest and no changes could discern when the OLD made me use a human.  Knowing I do not photograph too well, my bar is pretty low on a pic, so always look at the bio...have passed on many a hot woman matched with, after reading her bio.

Number one comment I got on my pics of me is she liked my smile.   I also photograph horribly when I am posing, can do serious for professional photos but they do a lot of shots...I am clearly not a natural at the medium.   However, when people catch me in the moment of fun...I come out looking pretty good.  Long way of saying, if you cannot show a little soul, you are going to have a hard time attracting women who are just as interested in your soul as your face.

Cant disagree with this at all. Problem is my moments are fun are inevitably accompanied by supercars and I am told those send all the wrong sorts of messages. 

[luiscasabuena]

I don’t think you can do anything about women’s preferences, do you?

How about you focus on self-development?

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, luiscasabuena said:

I don’t think you can do anything about women’s preferences, do you?

How about you focus on self-development?

Been there done that and never ever irrespective of what I did was the outcome any better.  Boat on any reasonable prospects sailed long ago(just this morning I was looking through FB and almost everyone I know is married with kids) I think but every few odd years a spectacularly appealing boat will dock and I'll believe in something again but inevitably it comes to nothing. 

The only reason I did this was to see really if everyone struggled in equal measure and clearly that is not the case, nothing new there I guess. Just amazed how easy it is if you are fortunate enough to be considered good looking. 

Self improvement is subjective, I am working out for no other reason than trying to be healthy and feel good. 

Its tough some day though to face the inevitable reality.

[luiscasabuena]

I really don't know you other than how you project yourself here so it's very very hard to assess if you're doing things the right way.

You mentioned about looks. Okay, that's not exactly unchangeable. As I said, working out is one way to improve it. You do it anyway but only to be healthy and feel good. Hmmm how about you try to do more... like you do it to pack on some muscles or improve your posture?

As you discovered that looks is crucial in dating, is there something you can do about it other than change women's preferences? 

As for the pictures, if you hate taking photographs, that emotion alone would reflect on the outcome. If you don't like something, you won't expect that it will produce a good outcome. Have you tried watching youtube videos coaching the viewers on how to make a good smile on camera?

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

The only reason I did this was to see really if everyone struggled in equal measure and clearly that is not the case, nothing new there I guess. Just amazed how easy it is if you are fortunate enough to be considered good looking. 

You had to do a catfishing experiment to figure this out? Good looking people have more options. It doesn’t mean their love life is perfect though or without struggle.