Shouldn't be dating if one can't afford it. a gentleman doesn't mind feeding a lady.

[poppyfields]

19 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

I don't think you will change your views about guys paying for the first few dates.  I've dated educated women and always paid the first date or two and only encountered very mild resistance.

I wasn't referring to resistance, I would NEVER act like those women I spoke about, never ever.  That is totally obnoxious imo and unnecessary.  

I was speaking more to how I might change given that I may be earning more (possibly).  And maybe even be more successful.   And as such I might feel differently and be more open to paying for some of those early dates.

Like your girlfriend paid for your second date, right?  Like that, that's what I meant. 

Edited January 22, 2021 by poppyfields

[SumGuy]

1 hour ago, poppyfields said:

...

What really irks me about this is I have tried really hard to understand why some men have an issue with it, like Shining One said, they've been burned and are sensitive to be used by some women for their wallet.  The operative word being "some," not all women are like this.

I've rarely seen a case where men were forced to do anything, they pay of their own accord or are conned into it with hints it will win them approval, which they read as making out.  You can't con an honest man they say.  I'd suggest get centered to remove whatever fear, insecurity etc. that impels one to spend more than they feel comfortable with when they are just getting to know someone.   That seems pretty simple, don't suggest such dates.

Quote

But yet, men haven't even tried to understand a woman's POV about it, the biology behind it and why it turns many women on.  They use words like "special" and "preferential," which is a load of BS, it's simply not true for many women.

I think it is always nice to be treated; it makes me feel special.  It's a gesture.  I personally like it when a woman offers to pay for me or split that tab, usually it is a great sign and it makes me feel valued...maybe even more so than a woman would as it is against the old stereotype so she must really think I'm hot.    It is certainly not about the money, my time is far more valuable than the cost of the date.

Even if it is a bit inner biological, so what, just because one can relish such things doesn't mean they buy into all other things deemed "biological" that would be offensive to someone or their date.  I think we all have an inner biological appreciation of gifts, and paying for someone is a form of gift, so it is not even necessarily some inner desire for men as provider or a male/female thing.

I tend to think that is fairly bogus men as providers as in the stereotypical Paleolithic hunter/gatherer society division of labor (and what I have read from the archeological record) the gatherer portion provided the majority of the calories as opposed to the hunter part, in a way under such a scheme is is the women who are the providers....maybe more like lions, the females really provide the day-to-day, the males really more for protection from hyenas and other males.  Thus before my dates I really work on my mane, who says men don't take time to look good before a date?  Heck if you count the gym, a lot of time.  

[Trail Blazer]

25 minutes ago, peach302 said:

Lets face it most of the time men don't want to pay because they're just tight or can't afford it 😂

Nice deflection.  I see you had no intention of answering the question.

I'd suggest that you actually read some of the valid reasons posted for why men harbor certain attitudes towards female entitlement.

Your constant swipes at men using sweeping genralizations about being tight or poor speaks of a lack of character on your part.

Perhaps you're quite young and you've been brought up in a middle-class, conservative environment, so you have some ingrained cultural attitudes towards things.

I can tell you now that someone like myself could afford to take you to any restaurant in town, but with an entitled attitude like yours, why would I want to?

You'd brush someone like myself off as being poor or tight, because it's convenient for you to say such things instead of trying to understand and rectify your own attitude.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Trail Blazer

[Trail Blazer]

6 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

I wasn't referring to resistance, I would NEVER act like those women I spoke about, never ever.  That is totally obnoxious imo and unnecessary.  

I was speaking more to how I might change given that I may be earning more (possibly).  And maybe even be more successful.   And as such I might feel differently and be more open to paying for some of those early dates.

Like your girlfriend paid for your second date, right?  Like that, that's what I meant. 

When I say "mild resistence", I'll recite an example; I went on a third date with one woman where we had lunch.  

I got up to pay the bill and she said she would pay half.  I told her that it wouldn't be necessary. 

She said, "are you sure!?"  I told her yes, to which she said, "I don't feel comfortable with you paying for everything." 

I told her, "too bad" and winked, then got up and paid.  She playfully slapped me on the arm afterwards and said I was "naughty".

As for my girlfriend and our second date; technically we didn't split the bill, I still paid.  However, she purchased the wine seperately to our food order. 

Total pecuniary value was very similar.

[peach302]

38 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

Nice deflection.  I see you had no intention of answering the question.

I'd suggest that you actually read some of the valid reasons posted for why men harbor certain attitudes towards female entitlement.

Your constant swipes at men using sweeping genralizations about being tight or poor speaks of a lack of character on your part.

Perhaps you're quite young and you've been brought up in a middle-class, conservative environment, so you have some ingrained cultural attitudes towards things.

I can tell you now that someone like myself could afford to take you to any restaurant in town, but with an entitled attitude like yours, why would I want to?

You'd brush someone like myself off as being poor or tight, because it's convenient for you to say such things instead of trying to understand and rectify your own attitude.

Its not lack of character on my part ..its called the truth ?

Ive had experiences with men who were simply tight! Nothing to do with me being "entitled'. And all i said was the FIRST time the guy should pay. Didnt say every  single time!. 

 

[Trail Blazer]

2 minutes ago, peach302 said:

Its not lack of character on my part ..its called the truth ?

Ive had experiences with men who were simply tight! Nothing to do with me being "entitled'. And all i said was the FIRST time the guy should pay. Didnt say every  single time!. 

 

Things aren't true just because you say they are.  They're true because they're a fact.  And what you're saying may be true some of the time, but certainly not anywhere close to being all of the time.

But that's okay, keep having swipes at guys for not pandering to your entitlement while assuring everyone around you that you are of sounds character.  Decent guys will see right through that and it will be your loss.

[SumGuy]

1 hour ago, Woggle said:

I don't think a lot of women will ever understand why men have an issue with spending money on women these days but let me try to explain it. For the past few decades men have heard over and over how much women don't need us and some women have even said they are better off without us. Then we hear how expecting anything traditional from a woman means that we are misogynists who want to keep women oppressed. Men want to pay and pamper a woman when he feels romantic and tender feelings towards her but the current relationship climate and the state of gender relations do not inspire romantic feelings. Instead men just feel like suckers being used when they open up a wallet for a woman. If women really want this traditional approach to return they should start speaking up against the ones who are ruining it. Don't blame men for protecting ourselves.

I can say at least 95% of the women I have dated understand.  Many have brought it up when I go to pay, some have even faced men who pay and then expect physical affection which is why they offer to pay.  All of them have got it that one reason men can be hesitant to pay as they fear they are being taken for a ride.

Thing is some women want you to pay, some don't care.   Some take signs like holding the door open as perpetuating the patriarchy, though most don't...and believe me my preferred dating pool are women who do not give a fig about traditional gender roles (which also may explain my experience that this has never been a real issue for me) 

The problem is, I believe, is thinking there is one set of gender roles that all women (or men) subscribe to.  There isn't, probably never was just at one time if you didn't at least give lip service to the professed societal norm you'd get way too more sh*t than you wanted to deal with.   

Yet if one believes there is one generally accepted set of gender roles in this regard, it will very much feel like damned if you do and damned if you don't.

So it is not like women are inconsistent or hypocritical, but it appears that way if you believe there is one generally accepted view, then hear one thing one day from one woman and another the next from another.   Sure there are individuals who are hypocritical and inconsistent and self serving, that's the human race and it certainly ain't limited to one gender. 

Likewise, the voices that like to damn and demonize the other gender in the strongest terms get amplified easily these days, and stick in ones head, and are the voices that seek out the internet the most it seems.   

You get misandryst women quoting misogynist men to justify their hate, and misogynistic men quoting misandryst women to justify theirs.  Yet women being pissed about unequal treatment and historically being treated under the law as near chattel, isn't misandry.  Likewise, men getting upset they are lumped in with the worse or that anything traditional male = toxic male, isn't misogyny.     

[SumGuy]

1 hour ago, Woggle said:

Honestly I can at least respect the women who fully walk the walk on being independent and I think I speak for most men.

Agreed.   My life experience has led me to encounter mostly women who walk the walk, and are also generous and open minded about it.

Quote

It's the ones who say men are trash and find fault in everything we do while shouting how much they don't need us while at the same time acting like they are  entitled to our wallets that really are a turnoff.

I'd call that more than just entitled, self serving, hypocritical...a real turn off no matter the gender.  I can't say I have ever dated any woman like that or talked to one in real life, but have seen them on the internet.

Quote

There are sites where they view using men for their money then dropping them as a form of female empowerment and getting one over on the patriarchy.

I say we cross link those sites with the PUA sites that brag and strategize about how to manipulate and lie to women to get them in bed.  Perhaps they will self annihilate and the internet will be a better place. 

[peach302]

52 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

Things aren't true just because you say they are.  They're true because they're a fact.  And what you're saying may be true some of the time, but certainly not anywhere close to being all of the time.

But that's okay, keep having swipes at guys for not pandering to your entitlement while assuring everyone around you that you are of sounds character.  Decent guys will see right through that and it will be your loss.

Actually when i meet someone  for the first time i'm very nice and courteous. Finding it odd that a guy doesn't want to pay or heck even wants me to pay..i dont see anything wrong in that. 

But i wont usually make it obvious or act entitled no. 🤨

And  i never said all of the time. But certainly a lot of the time..what  i said is the case. 

Edited January 22, 2021 by peach302

[Ellener]

To return to the thread title, I imagine lots of people are having to be creative about dating in the face of Covid infection risk and financial consequences of the pandemic.

 

[GeorgiaPeach1]

21 hours ago, poppyfields said:

To add, if the energy/chemistry is not there and I have no intention of seeing him again, I will offer to pay.   It only makes me feel valued when I am into him.

Most times, they never allowed me to pay, in fact a few times they  became downright insulted!  I still always offered though.  I never felt comfortable with a man paying knowing I don't plan on seeing him again.

@GeorgiaPeach1, I am wondering how you feel about that.   When you know you're not into him and won't be seeing him again, do you still feel comfortable with him paying?

That's a very good question. I'm taken now but when I was dating, I would pay for my own meal if I knew I wouldn't be seeing him again. That was only fair, as I knew I wouldn't be reciprocating at some point with a good home cooked meal.

That being said, I still feel that a man paying for a first date (modest meal and/or activity) shows good manners. A man nickel and diming a woman on the first date is highly unattractive, and suggests a personality issue to me.

[GeorgiaPeach1]

19 hours ago, Shining One said:

Quality is determined by actions, not words. I paid for the first date with my last girlfriend. She came home with me that night. A week or so later, we went on our second date. She paid for it (no discussion, she simply did it). We went back to her place afterwards. Notice how her sexual attraction to me was not diminished by paying for both of our dinners. That's a quality woman!

That's certainly part of it. I do have a history of bad experiences. The other part would be that the egalitarian women I've met over the years (some friends, some more than friends) have raised the bar considerably. Those women are very hard to find, but they're the only ones worth it to me for the long run.

Again, this is the get something for nothing mindset. I guess having the woman pay and still taking her home seems like a double win to some men.

[trident_2020]

5 minutes ago, GeorgiaPeach1 said:

. A man nickel and diming a woman on the first date is highly unattractive, and suggests a personality issue to me.

Now this makes perfect sense. Everyone knows that any man who nickel and dimes a woman on the first date should be subject to a thorough evaluation by a licensed mental health professional.

 

[peach302]

7 minutes ago, GeorgiaPeach1 said:

That's a very good question. I'm taken now but when I was dating, I would pay for my own meal if I knew I wouldn't be seeing him again. That was only fair, as I knew I wouldn't be reciprocating at some point with a good home cooked meal.

That being said, I still feel that a man paying for a first date (modest meal and/or activity) shows good manners. A man nickel and diming a woman on the first date is highly unattractive, and suggests a personality issue to me.

I agree with this. It shows basic manners .

But when hes hesitant about paying its or looking at me to foot the bill its an instant turn off. As opposed to let me get this and taking charge. 

[GeorgiaPeach1]

15 hours ago, Woggle said:

I don't think a lot of women will ever understand why men have an issue with spending money on women these days but let me try to explain it. For the past few decades men have heard over and over how much women don't need us and some women have even said they are better off without us. Then we hear how expecting anything traditional from a woman means that we are misogynists who want to keep women oppressed. Men want to pay and pamper a woman when he feels romantic and tender feelings towards her but the current relationship climate and the state of gender relations do not inspire romantic feelings. Instead men just feel like suckers being used when they open up a wallet for a woman. If women really want this traditional approach to return they should start speaking up against the ones who are ruining it. Don't blame men for protecting ourselves.

But you all still want benefits from women.

[stillafool]

3 minutes ago, GeorgiaPeach1 said:

But you all still want benefits from women.

And women want benefits from men also, including sex.

[GeorgiaPeach1]

34 minutes ago, trident_2020 said:

Now this makes perfect sense. Everyone knows that any man who nickel and dimes a woman on the first date should be subject to a thorough evaluation by a licensed mental health professional.

 

It suggests possible issues/anger with the female gender, possible issues with money, etc... What other areas is he stingy in? A person's attitude about money can reveal a lot about their personality.

[trident_2020]

2 minutes ago, GeorgiaPeach1 said:

It suggests possible issues/anger with the female gender, possible issues with money, etc... What other areas is he stingy in? A person's attitude about money can reveal a lot about their personality.

Yeah you're right most guys who are cheap on first dates are probably serial killers with previous dates kept as prisoners in their basements.

 

[poppyfields]

1 hour ago, GeorgiaPeach1 said:

Again, this is the get something for nothing mindset. I guess having the woman pay and still taking her home seems like a double win to some men.

Well, if he does take her home (presumably to have sex), I would hope SHE was enjoying the experience as well, right?   Sex is not just for the man, they both gain something from it.

So logically I can understand Shining and other's men mindset about it.  They are both enjoying the experience of have dinner together, so why not both contribute to paying for that enjoyable dinner?  

It makes sense from a logical standpoint.  But then those darn emotions get in the way, and it just feels strange to me!  During those early dates (i.e. courtship if you will).  It's also part conditioning, what I have been conditioned to expect, what I was raised to expect.

But hey I am evolving so may change my viewpoint down the road, who knows!  

Edited January 22, 2021 by poppyfields

[cleverusername]

All I’m saying is, if it costs me $70 for two dates to meet my future wife and mother of my children who will push a watermelon out of her vagina for me.... $70 seems like a good investment. 

[peach302]

41 minutes ago, stillafool said:

And women want benefits from men also, including sex.

Men get more benefits than women...and even more so if they don't pay for a thing

[Shining One]

1 hour ago, GeorgiaPeach1 said:

Again, this is the get something for nothing mindset. I guess having the woman pay and still taking her home seems like a double win to some men.

Not everyone views sex as part of a transaction. Instead, it is a shared experience for both to enjoy.

33 minutes ago, GeorgiaPeach1 said:

What other areas is he stingy in?

If the person willing to cover half of the dating expenses is stingy, what does that make the person who wants to contribute nothing?

35 minutes ago, GeorgiaPeach1 said:

A person's attitude about money can reveal a lot about their personality.

I agree. The majority of women I dated who contributed nothing early on proved to be bad long-term partners.

[stillafool]

15 minutes ago, peach302 said:

Men get more benefits than women...and even more so if they don't pay for a thing

Like what?

[cleverusername]

1 minute ago, stillafool said:

Like what?

Equal pay for equal work! A woman shows her butthole on the Internet and can become a celebrity making thousands of dollars and hour. 
 

But if a man does it....

[stillafool]

1 minute ago, cleverusername said:

But if a man does it....

They do it too on gay sights.