Race and standards of beauty

[Ollie180]

38 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

I've made your bolded point repeatedly in my posts already, Ollie - maybe read them and double check? Not sure we're in disagreement.

Fair play.. I don’t believe you need to have a butchers at yourself, reflect, or have any justification whatsoever to date the person (whatever race they are) that YOU find attractive. The only reason you need is because you fancy them!

And I believe the standard of beauty you hold true will always be in reflection of what you find attractive.

41 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

That's why they are concepts not to be taken personally. 😏 For some reason, people always think these concepts are directed at them only. 🙄

Because people forget when you make a concept about a group of people, (even if it’s about a percentage of that group). Then the concept although not personal in theory, becomes an assumption about the real Individuals that make that group up. In a sense that any sea is nothing but drops.

I used to talk to schools and communities about poaching or revenge killing of elephants... the second you make a statement that even suggests you have a better understanding of the motivation of any single individual in that group than they have of themselves you ostracise the whole lot of them, in solidarity of the one. It’s a minefield!

 

Bottom line for me is, I know I’m not racist, and I don’t need anyone else to tell me that, because I’m perfectly confident in it! But I speak because ‘Jim’, who has fancied white girls his whole life, shouldn’t feel like he has to justify that to anyone else or fear himself a racist! Because all a concept like that achieve is polarising and dividing people! It creates a ‘them’ and ‘us’ which shouldn’t even exist!! Because ‘them and us’ is nothing but a human concept! A concept that shifts every time we change the labels that we are trying to categorise people with...

...it goes back to the ‘countries standard of beauty’ all you are do is take an average and present that as the answer.. and as soon as you do you polarises the individuals within that group as evidence by the existence of the thread...

[rjc149]

Okay, so what about John Mayer's "famous" Playboy interview where he was asked whether he would date black women, to which he eloquently answered: "my dick is sort of like a white supremacist. I’ve got a Benetton heart and a f--kin' David Duke c-ck. I’m going to start dating separately from my dick."

Aside from the problematic phrasing and the clear fact that he is a jackass, here is a white guy stating he will only date white women. But he's not racist, just a jackass who prefers white women. A black woman approaches him, but he's like "I'm flattered, but I don't date black women. Sorry." 

Just his preference. Right? 

[Emilie Jolie]

35 minutes ago, Ollie180 said:

Bottom line for me is, I know I’m not racist, and I don’t need anyone else to tell me that, because I’m perfectly confident in it! But I speak because ‘Jim’, who has fancied white girls his whole life, shouldn’t feel like he has to justify that to anyone else or fear himself a racist! Because all a concept like that achieve is polarising and dividing people! It creates a ‘them’ and ‘us’ which shouldn’t even exist!! Because ‘them and us’ is nothing but a human concept! A concept that shifts every time we change the labels that we are trying to categorise people with...

You're not racist, and that's great. Some people are. It shouldn't be 'polarising' than to state an obvious fact. Jim may not be racist either, but at least for me, someone who has a 'type', whatever it is, is a red flag. This shows a restrictive, limited view on at least one thing, and I'm not interested in that. Even worse when there's racial element to it. Jim doesn't have to justify himself to anyone, he can do what he wants though, and doesn't need my input to be happy.

41 minutes ago, Ollie180 said:

I don’t believe you need to have a butchers at yourself, reflect, or have any justification whatsoever to date the person (whatever race they are) that YOU find attractive. The only reason you need is because you fancy them!

You do what you want, Ollie. 🙂 This thread is about racism and standards of beauty though, not the persons that you personally fancy.

 

1 hour ago, Ollie180 said:

Because people forget when you make a concept about a group of people, (even if it’s about a percentage of that group). Then the concept although not personal in theory, becomes an assumption about the real Individuals that make that group up. In a sense that any sea is nothing but drops.

Very nice way of saying some people are a bit too self-centered.

 

 

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, rjc149 said:

A black woman approaches him, but he's like "I'm flattered, but I don't date black women. Sorry." 

I used to work alongside a nurse who told me one day 'I won't date black men,' at the time I thought lucky men- she was an obnoxious miserable woman!

[K.K.]

Right because now it’s RACIST to be attracted to who you’re attracted to !  

[DKT3]

This is common,  issues involving racism is usually met with people trying to minimize the issue.  It's not as simple as being racist because you only date one race or attracted to one race. That's only a distraction.

The thread is about standards of beauty. Those standards are set by mass media which is systematically racist. 

However,  making a statement like I would never date or I dont find them attractive based solely on race is racism 100%. Because you've closed yourself off to the possibility.  Only way you can make those comments and it not be racism would be if you've met every person of that race and decided on an individual bases that you arent attracted to them.

[Ollie180]

1 hour ago, Emilie Jolie said:

Very nice way of saying some people are a bit too self-centered.

You can find motivation for the most selfless action in the world to be ‘self-centred’ if you deem too
 

1 hour ago, rjc149 said:

Okay, so what about John Mayer's "famous" Playboy interview where he was asked whether he would date black women, to which he eloquently answered: "my dick is sort of like a white supremacist. I’ve got a Benetton heart and a f--kin' David Duke c-ck. I’m going to start dating separately from my dick."

Aside from the problematic phrasing and the clear fact that he is a jackass, here is a white guy stating he will only date white women. But he's not racist, just a jackass who prefers white women. A black woman approaches him, but he's like "I'm flattered, but I don't date black women. Sorry." 

Just his preference. Right? 

nope! He is choosing not to date women because they are black, and excluding black women from an option in the future, that sounds like causal racism to me...

(and as well as that example being racist you get it with other things too.. like religion, where people would not consider dating outside their branch of religion - or would be disowned if they did! A very good friend of mine hasn’t been spoken too for 6 years by her family because she and her family are Muslim and she dates a white atheist Aussie! It’s sad).

if he said every woman up to that point he had dates had been white, that’s just a fact. Then that preference continued his whole life, and  because of that his internal ‘standard of beauty’ was normally based off those woman that he was and had been attracted to.... then that is simply a man who has lived his own life and picked women to date that he fancied at the time of which their race proved retrospectively to be an apparent preference.

....I feel like that difference is pretty simple to see!

Anyway, live and let live, I’m not going in circles on this so, peace out ✌

Edited June 11, 2020 by Ollie180

[elaine567]

3 minutes ago, Ollie180 said:

A very good friend of mine hasn’t been spoken too for 6 years by her family because she and her family are Muslim and she dates a white atheist Aussie! It’s sad

It may be sad but it is not uncommon or unexpected surely? 
Few are allowed to mess about with Islam.

[Fresh_Start]

Race doesn't factor into the equation of whether or not I find a woman attractive.  "Hot", "sexy", "gorgeous" etc. are universally applicable terms without a qualifier.  I've seen gorgeous women of all races and ethnic backgrounds without thinking things like, "Wow, that's a hot black chick" or "Damn, she's fine for a Hispanic girl".  It's "Wow, she's hot" or "Damn, she's fine".  I have a celebrity crush on Ana de Armas and don't give her race or ethnicity a second thought.  I have far more important things to think about when I think of her. 🤤

Edited June 14, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed link to example image, revised.

[basil67]

17 hours ago, DKT3 said:

The vast majority is white men with women of color.  That's kinda my point with the Friends reference.  

Here in Oz, I'm increasingly seeing white men with asian women on TV and in commercials.    But yeah, rarely the other way around.

[basil67]

5 hours ago, K.K. said:

Right because now it’s RACIST to be attracted to who you’re attracted to !  

There's been a few people who've responded that it's not racist to be attracted to who you're attracted to.  I want to be clear that I have not suggested that this is racist.  Thing is, the original statement about the ultimate in desirability of men for women was so far from how I think (in both appearance and fame and fortune) that I've grappled to comprehend it on multiple levels and wanted to explore it further.

My question had three parts: 1. is the statement true?  Y/N   2. If yes, then why is it so.  3. Are those reasons connected to racism Y/N?   Call me naive, but it didn't occur to me that it could be because of appearance.  So no, it's not racist.   I wondered if it could be because maybe the white man could possibly be more likely to have all the other traits of power and stuff which was talked about.  But nobody has really gone there in the discussion, so it's probably not a thing.  

 

 

[elaine567]

26 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Here in Oz, I'm increasingly seeing white men with asian women on TV and in commercials

TV wants to reflect, to give a feeling of accuracy.
This is how we live and we can thus relate.
No-one is going to keep watching programmes that give a false view of "life" as they know it.
Commercials are aimed at their target audience, get it wrong and they don't sell stuff.

[thefooloftheyear]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

TV wants to reflect, to give a feeling of accuracy.
This is how we live and we can thus relate.
No-one is going to keep watching programmes that give a false view of "life" as they know it.
Commercials are aimed at their target audience, get it wrong and they don't sell stuff.

I dunno, E....I am not much of a TV watcher, but most TV (and commercials) are no where near anything that resembles reality...

Like every commercial(and many sitcoms) here in the states(I can't say its true of anywhere else) always tend to show the guy as the idiot and the woman as the smart one that saves the day...Not that it isn't something that doesn't ever happen, but the way it's represented tends to make one believe that the entire male race is nothing but a bunch of stumbling/bumbling buffoons that are hopelessly lost without a woman around...

They also never show black folks in anything that resembles anything criminal or nefarious...You have crime shows and commercials for alarm systems that always show lily white perps....Never latino or black...Not that there aren't white felons and miscreants, but they don't represent all of them, in fact, statistically they represent a smaller percentage....

In other words, not much of it is really "accurate"..

TFY

[MsJayne]

On 6/11/2020 at 8:34 AM, basil67 said:

 

And for what it's worth, Dev Patel makes me swoon.  

Me too!!!  😍    

[pepperbird]

On 6/11/2020 at 6:20 AM, Emilie Jolie said:

You like what you like personally, yes, of course.

But a lot of it is unconscious social conditioning, and what sort role models we have been exposed to in the media or in films. 

It's only been in the last 40 years or so that we are seeing stories of main minority characters who are not villains, for instance; films like 'Black Panther' are quite recent. There have always been the odd minority celebrity outlier, but it's still all new. Very few minorities have presented the Oscars, for instance. I know you are Australian - minority characters on Home and Away and Neighbours are also quite recent.

It doesn't mean being attracted to a white person is an issue, it's just that you can explain it by more than it just being your personal taste.

If you've lived and worked in cosmopolitan environments, your tastes will reflect that.

If polled, I expect what people find attractive would span a wide range. It's human nature. Trying to pint that down assumes people feel a certain way for a certain reaosn, when the truth could be very different.
 

[Emilie Jolie]

Just now, pepperbird said:

If polled, I expect what people find attractive would span a wide range. It's human nature. Trying to pint that down assumes people feel a certain way for a certain reaosn, when the truth could be very different.
 

True, there is no relevance in trying to understand why individuals like and don't like, unless you are getting romantically involved with them. My personal opinion is that little of it is actually down to deliberate choice (much less than what we think anyway), a lot of it is predetermined by outside factors before we are even born, and the rest is a tie between childhood and social conditioning.

Delving into it has helped me personally find more suited partners, because the 'types' I was going for clearly not the right ones. 

It's also a good gauge of compatibility - people who have a type are not compatible with what I want from a partner. 

I also don't believe being attracted to one specific type only is a preference - it's a set thing. If you're literally only dating blond surfers and nobody else, you are closing yourself off to everything else. If you're open to dating anyone but you prefer blond surfer dudes, that's a different, more open-minded minset.

It doesn't have to be racist at all, but it absolutely can be. 

As far as racism and standards of beauty, things are shifting to more diversity, which is great.

[Haydn]

I think this has gone slightly off topic.

But maybe i can throw my thoughts in.

I think however you meet someone and fall in love has a lot to with circumstance and not a lot to do with their skin hue.

I have liked all kinds of girls. Some black, some brown, some shockingly pale.

Do we have a type? Maybe, but that changes as we explore the world and not the bubble we live in. (That sounded awful, i know)

Me and Enigma probably don`t agree on many things but this one, i do. 

[chillii]

 

lf you wanna talk skin colour , l prefer pale skin, love it, so !  l think all kinds of women, nationalities  and colour variants can be absolutely gorgeous, but l personally just go for very pale , that's just what l like, don't see a problem we like what we like. l know what the original thread is getting at and for me that also brings a lot of characteristics and traits into things different nationalities and races have many different characteristics , that's how it is , that's nature and human , that's how it's suppose to be but again we like what we like, nothing wrong with that. As far as any white status thing coming into it, people, women and men will like whatever they like for whatever reason , full stop. That's their choice.

Edited June 13, 2020 by chillii

[Halosglow]

On 6/10/2020 at 3:34 PM, basil67 said:

I was on another thread yesterday and the old nugget about Hollywood actors being the ultimate aspiration to women came up.   During the discussion, I asked why Hollywood actors are something we'd want.   A male poster wrote that it doesn't have to be the actor himself but rather [the actor] is "a blanket term for "conventionally handsome, wealthy, high-status white man in his 30's or 40's who is generally deemed as desirable by the opposite sex."

What surprised me was that nobody (since I was last on the thread) picked up that a 'white man' is deemed more desirable than a man of any other colour.   Granted, we were having the usual 'hot or not' bickering at the time, but a comment like this slipping through the cracks tells me that racism doesn't have to be about statistically arguable points of police brutality or socio economics, but can sneak through in such insidious terms.  

So what's up with this?   Is a white man more desirable than a man of any other colour?   If so, why?   And do the reasons go back to racism?

And for what it's worth, Dev Patel makes me swoon.  

I personally like Morgan Freemen, Denzel Washington, But that does not mean anything IMPO is Hollywood is over rated. And I think women of color or mixed women are way prettier. Their skin stays youthful. They always have clean teeth. Etc. And they don't have to be famous. Most are not and once Hollywood is in their blood they are no longer themselves none of the no matter what race   

[major_merrick]

I don't pay much attention to other people's standards of attractiveness.  I like what I like.  I imagine there could be some racism in the media regarding attractiveness, but I'm just not paying attention to it.

I don't think personal preferences should be considered racist.... as that gets into some dangerous territory where society could start telling people who they should like, date, and have sex with.  I simply don't find some people attractive....never have and never will.  Just how I'm wired. 

[basil67]

Haha, this has gone so off topic - I must have worded my first post very badly.  As I tried to explain after my first post, it didn't occur to me that one would aspire to date a white man simply because of how he looks.    And yeah, it's not racist to have personal preference in terms of looks. 

[Prudence V]

On 6/10/2020 at 11:34 PM, basil67 said:

 Is a white man more desirable than a man of any other colour? 

A friend of mine (a black Kenyan man) told me how, growing up, they were used to a regular stream of young Scandinavian (women) students coming out on “gap year” projects, working for aid agencies, to get their hands on some black hotness. It was a big thing back then - all the young guys would have this first sexual experiences at the hands of these women, who loved to see their white skin up against these guys’ dark skin. 
 

At the time, he reckoned, they saw it as an interesting rite of passage, though now he views it more cynically.