Race and standards of beauty

[basil67]

I was on another thread yesterday and the old nugget about Hollywood actors being the ultimate aspiration to women came up.   During the discussion, I asked why Hollywood actors are something we'd want.   A male poster wrote that it doesn't have to be the actor himself but rather [the actor] is "a blanket term for "conventionally handsome, wealthy, high-status white man in his 30's or 40's who is generally deemed as desirable by the opposite sex."

What surprised me was that nobody (since I was last on the thread) picked up that a 'white man' is deemed more desirable than a man of any other colour.   Granted, we were having the usual 'hot or not' bickering at the time, but a comment like this slipping through the cracks tells me that racism doesn't have to be about statistically arguable points of police brutality or socio economics, but can sneak through in such insidious terms.  

So what's up with this?   Is a white man more desirable than a man of any other colour?   If so, why?   And do the reasons go back to racism?

And for what it's worth, Dev Patel makes me swoon.  

Edited June 10, 2020 by basil67

[basil67]

26 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

More desirable? That is going to be subjective, obviously, since it seems not one woman found that "conventionally handsome, wealthy, high-status white man in his 30's or 40's who is generally deemed as desirable by the opposite sex" attractive.

If white men are considered more desirable on average than other men, why would you think that is because of racism? Wouldn't you think it is just a preference or sexual attraction first? I know that I am personally more attracted to Asian ladies than any other but I have also dated plenty of white women and 2 black women as well. I have female friends here in the USA that date black men exclusively also. Would they also be racist? 

Damn, multi quote isn't working for me.  Please bear with me.

First, I'm quite open to the quote being voted to be absolute bollocks.

I didn't say that it was racism.  Rather, I'm asking questions about whether or not the statement is true and if so, does it have any roots in racism.    Based on your observations, the statement about white men being the pinnacle is false.   Does that sum it up?

 

 

  

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by basil67

[thefooloftheyear]

I'm pure hetero male, but I can see that many black guys are attractive, many have better physiques, etc...I dunno if it's fair to characterize or draw any conclusions about it being about race from that small exchange...Heck for whatever it's worth, I think a guy like Dwayne Johnson, is a better male specimen than any of the guys mentioned in that discussion...Not even close..I believe he's the highest paid male actor in the biz right now...

I dunno, B....The sample size is too small to draw any conclusions about whether there is a perception among many people about whites being "superior" in that area..

TFY

[rjc149]

4 hours ago, basil67 said:

I was on another thread yesterday and the old nugget about Hollywood actors being the ultimate aspiration to women came up.   During the discussion, I asked why Hollywood actors are something we'd want.   A male poster wrote that it doesn't have to be the actor himself but rather [the actor] is "a blanket term for "conventionally handsome, wealthy, high-status white man in his 30's or 40's who is generally deemed as desirable by the opposite sex."

What surprised me was that nobody (since I was last on the thread) picked up that a 'white man' is deemed more desirable than a man of any other colour.   Granted, we were having the usual 'hot or not' bickering at the time, but a comment like this slipping through the cracks tells me that racism doesn't have to be about statistically arguable points of police brutality or socio economics, but can sneak through in such insidious terms.  

So what's up with this?   Is a white man more desirable than a man of any other colour?   If so, why?   And do the reasons go back to racism?

And for what it's worth, Dev Patel makes me swoon.  

Hollywood maintains, as the pinnacle of American media, a white beauty standard. This is a standard that is upheld not only by often de-romanticized portrayals of black, Latino and Asian men (especially Asian men), but demonstrated in many dating site polls that indicate western women of all races tend to prefer white men. I assure you, using Ryan Reynolds as an example of a universal western male beauty standard, that is de facto white, wasn't insidiously intended to assert white supremacy. It was simply noting it. Did you note any non-white male celebrities being named before the 😍 emojies in the ensuing replies? I didn't. All of them conventionally handsome, wealthy, high-status male celebrities. All of them white. 

And for what it's worth Basil, I'm not white. But your concern is appreciated.

[basil67]

You're right rjc, - the thread itself answered my question.   My fondness for Dev Patel has been the only non-white person mentioned in the whole discussion.   🤔

I wonder if the beauty standards are what they are because there are more white men in Western society, so we're more familiar with it.    The reason I ask is that I grew up white in a very white neighbourhood.  So I was used to the look of white men and this is what I found attractive.   As my city has become more multi cultural, I see so many more men from other backgrounds..... and with increasing familiarity of their different looks, I have become far more attuned to seeing handsomeness where I previously had not seen it.   I went to a Sikh wedding last year, and wow, did that open my eyes to good looking Indian guys.

[Ruby Slippers]

I'm no sociologist, but I recall reading something on Wikipedia some time ago about how white men and women are at the top of the dating and mating "totem pole." Also, white woman are prized for their fair skin. Even black women are prized for lighter skin. Hence the whitening/lightening skin treatments popular in non-white regions. I think a lot of it is to do with social status and resources, not raw physical attraction. 

Personally, I find Middle Eastern men very attractive and sexy. My boyfriend is half-Persian (which I believe is a blend of Asian, Caucasian, and African), half-Caucasian, light brown skin and big brown eyes, fit and strong, and I think he's sexy as hell, just smoldering. 

[DKT3]

The fact that you rarely see white women in romantic relationships with men of color on TV and movies speaks volumes.  Just the other day there was a conversation and the tv friends,  where we tried to recall any of the female characters dating any men of color....didn't happen,  yet all of the Male characters did. That wasn't by accident. The producers on tv the bachelor wanted to use a man of color and the idea was nixed by the network. 

Are white men more desirable? I don't believe so. Percentage wise white women black men is the highest in terms of interracial dating and marriage. It's much higher then any white man women of color pairing. That is really the only tangible evidence there is to a highly subjective topic. If it's very tangible. 

[Ruby Slippers]

I think Sendhil Ramamurthy is hot sex on a platter. He resembles my Indian ex-bf - but my ex was even cuter 🤤

[Ruby Slippers]

A factor is that white women are often judged harshly for "dating out," especially black men, especially in certain geographic areas. 

I'm as white as can be, Irish blood, blonde with blue eyes, got tons of crap when I was with my dark-skinned (and gorgeous, impeccably dressed) Indian ex. We traveled a lot, once walked into a very white Midwestern brunch spot, and we got so many stares it was like we could heard the record needle scratch.

[basil67]

Oh my, yes!   That's really crap how you and your ex were treated

[DKT3]

My personal opinion is the most attractive person are combination.  Paula Patton, Meagan markle (hate her personality) Soledad O'Brien yummy.

[DKT3]

Oh I forgot Olivia Wilde

[Ellener]

7 hours ago, basil67 said:

Is a white man more desirable than a man of any other colour?

Not to me. 

1 hour ago, enigma32 said:

A poster here even made a comment that I "obtained" her like she is some kind of animal or object to be purchased. That's one of the most racist, dehumanizing things I have ever heard and people here thought it was funny. 

I myself thought it was some kind of joking between you, sorry.

 

[CaliforniaGirl]

6 hours ago, basil67 said:

I was on another thread yesterday and the old nugget about Hollywood actors being the ultimate aspiration to women came up.   During the discussion, I asked why Hollywood actors are something we'd want.   A male poster wrote that it doesn't have to be the actor himself but rather [the actor] is "a blanket term for "conventionally handsome, wealthy, high-status white man in his 30's or 40's who is generally deemed as desirable by the opposite sex."

What surprised me was that nobody (since I was last on the thread) picked up that a 'white man' is deemed more desirable than a man of any other colour.   Granted, we were having the usual 'hot or not' bickering at the time, but a comment like this slipping through the cracks tells me that racism doesn't have to be about statistically arguable points of police brutality or socio economics, but can sneak through in such insidious terms.  

So what's up with this?   Is a white man more desirable than a man of any other colour?   If so, why?   And do the reasons go back to racism?

And for what it's worth, Dev Patel makes me swoon.  

Because it’s all a pat script and the primary group endorsing it is pretty out of touch. White is better, beautiful is better, very young is better and so on...and it’s all formulaic...like here is when the person’s “market value” goes down, etc.

Plus some very protracted and cherry picked evolutionary science and anthropology.

It’s all extremely scripted and also very bitter, white people have it easy, tall men have it easy, young women have it easy, all this one-dimensional stuff that doesn’t hold up against real, dimensional life.

It’s like reading a child’s picture book about relationships v. actually having one.

You’ll notice that the script shifts a little depending upon the writer , for instance instead of males say 25-35 being the most desirable, all of a sudden it becomes men in their 40s if the writer is in his 40s...etc. but no...none of this stuff is universally true. You can tell that just by looking around.

[CaliforniaGirl]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

You're right rjc, - the thread itself answered my question.   My fondness for Dev Patel has been the only non-white person mentioned in the whole discussion.   🤔

I wonder if the beauty standards are what they are because there are more white men in Western society, so we're more familiar with it.    The reason I ask is that I grew up white in a very white neighbourhood.  So I was used to the look of white men and this is what I found attractive.   As my city has become more multi cultural, I see so many more men from other backgrounds..... and with increasing familiarity of their different looks, I have become far more attuned to seeing handsomeness where I previously had not seen it.   I went to a Sikh wedding last year, and wow, did that open my eyes to good looking Indian guys.

Could be but in practical terms, obviously every race dates, marries, etc. so even the Hollywood thing goes so far. Plus it changes all the time. At one time it was tall, dark and handsome. Or as an example today, the Kardashians with their exotic look became the “in” desired look for a long time...desired body shape changes all the time...for practical purposes hardly any non celeb looks like the ideal nor, for that matter, do celebs themselves, they Facetune themselves, get surgery, sue if certain unapproved pics are published, etc.

 I hope “race” as a primary attraction factor is dying; it’s a weird and slippery concept anyway and people “break the rules” of what look is pretty all the time, because no, people aren’t all just naturally drawn to a one dimensional very basic ideal.

[CaliforniaGirl]

1 hour ago, DKT3 said:

The fact that you rarely see white women in romantic relationships with men of color on TV and movies speaks volumes.  Just the other day there was a conversation and the tv friends,  where we tried to recall any of the female characters dating any men of color....didn't happen,  yet all of the Male characters did. That wasn't by accident. The producers on tv the bachelor wanted to use a man of color and the idea was nixed by the network. 

Are white men more desirable? I don't believe so. Percentage wise white women black men is the highest in terms of interracial dating and marriage. It's much higher then any white man women of color pairing. That is really the only tangible evidence there is to a highly subjective topic. If it's very tangible. 

I see families/couples in commercials all the time where there appears to be different ethnicities (if you will). Also more gay couples in commercials. And movies. Etc. Age differences. Parent of one apparent ethnicity, child another. Much older looking parents...younger looking ones... All possibilities just like in real life we may fall I love with anyone. There is no “one way” to do a relationship. Everybody knows that.

Edited June 11, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[CaliforniaGirl]

5 hours ago, enigma32 said:

More desirable? That is going to be subjective, obviously, since it seems not one woman found that "conventionally handsome, wealthy, high-status white man in his 30's or 40's who is generally deemed as desirable by the opposite sex" attractive.  

If white men are considered more desirable on average than other men, why would you think that is because of racism? Wouldn't you think it is just a preference or sexual attraction first? I know that I am personally more attracted to Asian ladies than any other but I have also dated plenty of white women and 2 black women as well. I have female friends here in the USA that date black men exclusively also. Would they also be racist? 

It could also just be environmental, who you grew up with, etc., at times...whites are a numerical majority in the U .S. Maybe some people find this their preference because of that? Or another preference? Honestly this whole concept is odd and uncomfortable, and kind of one-dimensional...and it’s all based in one silly designation somebody said it n an Internet forum...

[DKT3]

56 minutes ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

I see families/couples in commercials all the time where there appears to be different ethnicities (if you will). Also more gay couples in commercials. And movies. Etc. Age differences. Parent of one apparent ethnicity, child another. Much older looking parents...younger looking ones... All possibilities just like in real life we may fall I love with anyone. There is no “one way” to do a relationship. Everybody knows that.

The vast majority is white men with women of color.  That's kinda my point with the Friends reference.  

[CaliforniaGirl]

I am not seeing this as the default. At all. Could it be regional (the commercials)? Thank God I live in a culturally diverse place.

[Zona]

I don't think even the British government would try to legislate who we should find attractive.

Personally I find there to be beautiful women in all races and ethnicities. I'd be happy to see all the races blend into one in the end.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Zona

[5x5]

I don't think racism is the reason why white males, are greater in frequency versus other races amongst celebrities in Western nations. I think it's a natural consequence of them being in Western nations.

That said as an interesting aside the following from Sex and Punishment by Erik Berkowitz is worth reading.

"The Portuguese who came to Africa were strongly attracted to native women. Time and again, the Portuguese home authorities sent white women to entice the colonists away from the natives, but these efforts often met with failure. First female prisoners were brought over in the hope they would mate with the degredados and populate the settlements with white people. No such luck was to be had. The Crown then sent thousands of Jewish adolescents who had recently been expelled form Spain, hoping that they would marry degredados and spawn children. Again the plan failed. Many of the Jews died, and the survivors proved incompatible with the degredados. In fact both groups preferred the company of natives."

As for myself I find that there are attractive and not attractive people amongst all races, ethnicities and nationalities.

Of which my ex-wife who was born in England and grew up there (French first language though). Is a (very beautiful looking) black woman of African slave ancestry, with a bit of white French ancestry as well.

While my wife is a very beautiful Sicilian woman of Sicilian/Italian plus distant Greek and North African ancestry.

As for me I am standard NATO white, having come from British, German and Nordic ancestry.

Oh and my wife and I have white female friends who are happily married to black African men (from Africa), Asian men and other races and ethnicities as well.

P.S. Some of the most overtly racist people I have ever met in my life, were some of my ex-wife's relatives ( it wasn't all of them yet there were plenty).

Edited June 11, 2020 by 5x5

[DKT3]

23 minutes ago, 5x5 said:

I don't think racism is the reason why white males, are greater in frequency versus other races amongst celebrities in Western nations. I think it's a natural consequence of them being in Western nations.

That said as an interesting aside the following from Sex and Punishment by Erik Berkowitz is worth reading.

"The Portuguese who came to Africa were strongly attracted to native women. Time and again, the Portuguese home authorities sent white women to entice the colonists away from the natives, but these efforts often met with failure. First female prisoners were brought over in the hope they would mate with the degredados and populate the settlements with white people. No such luck was to be had. The Crown then sent thousands of Jewish adolescents who had recently been expelled form Spain, hoping that they would marry degredados and spawn children. Again the plan failed. Many of the Jews died, and the survivors proved incompatible with the degredados. In fact both groups preferred the company of natives."

As for myself I find that there are attractive and not attractive people amongst all races, ethnicities and nationalities.

Of which my ex-wife who was born in England and grew up there (French first language though). Is a (very beautiful looking) black woman of African slave ancestry ,with a bit of white French ancestry as well.

While my wife is a very beautiful Sicilian woman of Sicilian/Italian plus distant Greek and North African ancestry.

Oh and I am standard NATO white, having come from British, German and Nordic ancestry.

Dude white people looked like aliens to native Africans during that period.  Of course they weren't going to follow them anywhere. 

What people veiw as attractive is very malleable especially with females where other factors play a role. I love to use George Clooney and Patrick Dempsey as examples. Both had be very active in the 80's and 90's no mention of them as hot guys then all of a sudden both blew up and were on every list of hot men.

Point being media influences the masses on what is or isnt attractive and we buy it.  Because people of color are so poorly represented in the media it is in fact systematic racism.  Too the point that most people don't really notice. 

I will give an example of is...comic book geeks will know what I'm talking about.  The characters Jessica Jones and Luke Cage are married with a child in the comics.  Recently they made shows about both with barely any acknowledgement of their relationship. jones a white woman and cage a black man. Explain any reasonable explanation that of all the comic relationships turns tv or movies is this particular relationship left out? There are other examples of interracial couples in books that were minimized or completely ignored when made into movies.

Edited June 11, 2020 by DKT3

[chillii]

Doesn't have to mean a thing or is it suppose to be we can't even like who we like these days because l know where political correctness can shove that.

l love a certain car , or house , or type of person , or a specific look , or white chicks , so what, l like what l like , because that's what l like for whatever reason , nothing more to it . Something of anything is more popular than something else , so what . Just sounds like yet more pot stirring to me anything can be twisted into goods or bads.

[DKT3]

23 minutes ago, chillii said:

Doesn't have to mean a thing or is it suppose to be we can't even like who we like these days because l know where political correctness can shove that.

l love a certain car , or house , or type of person , or a specific look , or white chicks , so what, l like what l like , because that's what l like for whatever reason , nothing more to it . Something of anything is more popular than something else , so what . Just sounds like yet more pot stirring to me anything can be twisted into goods or bads.

It's like someone standing inside a privacy fence looking out of a small hole at people outside and saying your perspective, your experience, your reality isnt correct because they (from the inside) has never experienced it or dont understand.  Hearing this over and over again is infuriating.  Your reality doesn't exist,  your reality doesn't exist your reality doesn't exist. 

Edited June 11, 2020 by DKT3

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, DKT3 said:

Recently they made shows about both with barely any acknowledgement of their relationship. jones a white woman and cage a black man.

It is interesting, nobody says to me 'are you still seeing that white guy?' but I've been asked 'are you still seeing that black guy?'