So many clichés, so obvious... how come I cant stop it?

[FMW]

I think your marriage is in a lot more peril than you realize. I see it likely going one of two ways:

 

(1) Your wife is slowly taking in the information (gut instincts, what you tell her, what she sees or hears) and once she's processed it she will be done with the marriage. It took me a few years to get to the point of accepting the reality in my marriage, but my feelings for my (then) husband were dying by the day because of his actions and in-actions; or

 

(2) Your wife has (or soon will) make the determination that she won't be the one to end the marriage, but that what you had (or thought you had) is over and cannot be resurrected. She'll settle for a companionable marriage, at least until your children are grown.

[ManMar]

ManMar, for me, this isn't about the right to know being an absolute moral principle. It's about the right to know being important for your wife in this particular situation.

 

Lemme ask you a question: are you the one who mentioned that you and your wife were in an open relationship or am I confusing you with another poster? If it was you who said those words, then you basically told us that your wife was okay with you sleeping with someone else as long as she was fully aware of it...

 

What I am trying to say is that people who are brave enough (IMO) to embrace open relationships are people who want to know. So it seems to me that the moral principle is highly relevant in your situation.

 

But let's say I'm wrong and you and your wife are not in an open relationship, the thing is, she's not oblivious to your affair. She's very much aware of it. She's bracing herself for the possibility that you will leave her and your kid. She's stumbling through the dark trying to prepare for the worst case scenario without any confirmation of how bad things actually are. Let me tell you, that's a f***ed up place to be. If a storm is brewing, you want to know as much as possible so that you can take cover.

 

The biggest favor you can do her is to give her information about the current situation so that, going forward, she can make informed decisions about her life.

 

You are being selfish when you take it upon yourself to decide for her that she shouldn't know the details. You're also treating her like a baby. And you're actually revealing another aspect of your personality: you seem to feel the need to control/manage people (i.e. your wife). Your wife is not an engineering project. She's a human being who is worthy of respect.

 

Hi, thanks for the interest.

 

We've never been in an open relationship. We've been quite liberal with regards to sex: threesomes, group sex, etc. We are far from being a conservative couple on that regard. However, we both now the difference between recreational sex and deception. This is deception.

 

There is no storm brewing in the sense of me leaving with the OW. All this thread is about my personal struggle to get rid of an obsession and limiting the collateral damage. Anytime I look coldly at a future with the OW, I realize our relationship would not survive outside of a bubble, it cant be more obvious. The bubble has popped up now, I am narrating the last chapter of this internal fight.

 

The comment on "treating her like a baby" is related to the moral dilemma we have already discussed, the right to know vs happiness. Yes, I am taking a decision on her behalf, I think she is better off not knowing the details. I have many examples of selfish behavior, this is not one.

[ManMar]

I'm surprised you are convinced your wife doesn't know the truth.

 

Read up on gaslighting and the damage it does.

 

You are not in a state of limbo, you are still deep in the affair with plans to meet up before her wedding. The chances are you will have sex and blame it on the circumstances, the heightened emotions.

 

Hello,

 

For some reason, you and others, insist on some general aspects of affairs that dont apply to my case.

 

Time and again people point out that I blame someone else for my actions, regardless of what I have said one thousand times: I am in this situation because of my own mistakes, nobody else is to blame.

 

I know what gaslighting is, I have never blamed my wife or make her insecure with manipulation, actually quite the opposite. Yes, there is deception and denial involved in an A, but in my case never along the lines of gaslighting. I have never hurt my wife to make me feel better or superior, that is not me. This affair is a betrayal, which in itself is already bad enough, no need to look for something else that is not happening.

 

With regard to what will happen with the OW, I wish you are wrong. I have this internal fight going on (she probably has it too). We have not cut the cord 100%. I am working on it. Writing here helps me. Thanks for reading and making comments.

[ManMar]

 

I hope the answer is "no", but I did want to ask if you feel that keeping all these balls in the air is part of the attraction of the affair. Sort of the challenge of seeing if you can keep it going?

 

You do remind me of my brother. He's an adrenaline junkie who also has this need to keep his mind and body constantly active and hates being alone with himself.

 

I believe I am not so much adrenaline junkie. I am not the type of guy prone to high risk sports (the only sport I share with your brother is that I have been a triathlete for a number of years). Actually, I am quite moderate in that respect, I dont put my life at risk for the sake of it.

 

In my case, I guess it is a mix of obsessive personality, proving myself and need to feel alive through emotions. I guess all that is now strengthened by the realization that I am not young anymore and life is not eternal, in other words, a not very original middle life crises.

 

As I have already discussed, this obsessive personality had a positive impact in my life most of the time: it allowed me to focus, sharply, insanely, in achieving an objective. Paradoxically, jumping from on obsession to the next also made me a more rounded individual, as I have had different interests. At some point it was my academic life, then evolved into the career, then into being an entrepreneur, but also totally unrelated: photography, opera, different arts, psychology, science, wine and food, history, my family, sports, sex... I've had the time to have many obsessions. In each of them I have gone the extra mile, nothing was just passing by, I had to get into the details, learning with endless passion.

 

However, that is only the bright light of obsession, the flip side is that when you are into something, everything else becomes secondary. You make it a priority. Which is a toxic behavior, for yourself and for the people around. I have been able to manage those negative consequences somehow, but this time the coin does not have a flip side, everything is damaging, the obsession and the external consequences.

 

So no, I dont think the adrenaline of the A is what keeps me interested. It is the whole pack, being alive, the intense emotional connection, the feeling of being into a woman in a way that I didnot expect. It all is spiced by the age difference, in a way that I was not expecting: her energy, her eagerness to learn, her freshness I guess. Yes, it all feeds my vanity, but not only. Needless to say, this is a description of a bubble, of something based on very weak pillars. We would not survive as a real couple, we only thrive within the boundaries of something forbidden with large holes that are filled by imagination. Most of this A is a fantasy, but is very hard to put an end to it.

[ManMar]

I think your marriage is in a lot more peril than you realize. I see it likely going one of two ways:

 

(1) Your wife is slowly taking in the information (gut instincts, what you tell her, what she sees or hears) and once she's processed it she will be done with the marriage. It took me a few years to get to the point of accepting the reality in my marriage, but my feelings for my (then) husband were dying by the day because of his actions and in-actions; or

 

(2) Your wife has (or soon will) make the determination that she won't be the one to end the marriage, but that what you had (or thought you had) is over and cannot be resurrected. She'll settle for a companionable marriage, at least until your children are grown.

 

Hi, I think you assessment is accurate. It is up to me to turn around the situation. Thanks-

[Starswillshine]

You remind me a good bit of my ex husband. The obsessive thing is very much like him.

 

I think what many people are getting at and you arent quite understanding is the cruelness of what you are doing to your wife by alluding to but never confirming her suspicions. I know it seems cruel to you, but you already did the cruel thing. If I were you, I would sit down with your wife and tell her that she is correct, it went further than you have admitted to and ask her what details she would like to have. And answer any and all questions she has. Keep answers less detailed and tell her you could go into more details if she likes, but you are trying to be respectful to her now (even though you failed her there before). You have to start rebuilding trust BEFORE it all comes crashing down.

 

You HAVE to get out of that wedding. You need to tell your wife beforehand. It would be extremely cruel having your wife there watching.... her watching your every move.... questioning your emotions and wondering what you are feeling. That is a special amount of torture. In this instance, you need to start putting your wife and family ahead of all other things. Professional and affair.

 

I have been in your wife's shoes. I have had a husband who thought he knew what was best for me. It was a cruel reality and pure hell for me to know in my gut, but to have to question it. It makes a person question herself and wonder if her gut and judgement is off. You arent in her position, nor do you know what it is like, it is a cruel hell. When I finally learned the truth (or what pieces I could get from evidence), it was relieving to know that my gut has not failed me. I no longer felt crazy. I no longer just felt insecure. I felt empowered in a weird way knowing I knew it all along. That I was right. It hurt like hell for sure, but the damage was done the moment he began his affair.

 

There was some other thing I was going to address but I dont quite remember, I'm sure I'll come back to it.

 

Do the right thing. Begin the recovery of your marriage now.

[Starswillshine]

Btw, I ended up divorcing my wH. Because i could not handle all the lies and all the things he did to coverup everything. We may have had a chance had he not tried to control everything. If he gave me the truth and handed me the power. But it is hard for people like him, and like you, to hand power to others. But ultimately, I knew, and I found out, and I regained my power. I kicked him out, and divorced him... even though I was not financially independent. Even though I was going to be a single mom with 4 children. I just could no longer look at him with love nor trust him with anything. All the lies, all the deception. To have seen him lie so easily. To reaffirm his love over and over to me, all the while lying. I could never trust him. The only chance he had was if he came clean in the beginning.

 

Oh, I remember what I was going to say. You say you dont want to cause unnecessary pain in giving her all the information at one time. Let me tell you how that went for me. I would get some new information, I would then spend a couple days vomiting, in bed crying my eyes out, it would take me a few weeks to get past the blow where i could be out in public. I would be sorta ok, or like my daughter said, finally get my feet back under me... and then all of a sudden, some new crap would get flung at me. Rinse and repeat for 2 years. It was so damn cruel. I dont think the amount of time it took to heal from a those blows at one time would have been much more than just 1 blow. But for 2 years, I constantly kept getting knocked down just as I got back up. It was horrible and abusive.

 

Just RIP the darn bandaid off.

[ManMar]

 

You HAVE to get out of that wedding. Y. In this instance, you need to start putting your wife and family ahead of all other things. Professional and affair.

 

I have been in your wife's shoes. .

 

Hello, many thanks for sharing your experience and your advise.

 

I believe the decision or telling vs not-telling is very much dependent on what is the chance that at some point she figures out the extent of the A. My goal is to minimize pain.

 

Right now, she has sufficient confirmation that something has happened. I have denied a physical involvement, but in her mind she probably assumes that it has been more than that. She has not pressured me for more information. Her questions are more along the lines of: are you in love with that woman? do you want to leave?. I have denied being in love (untrue), I have confirmed I want to stay (true).

 

I do think that when the A is completely over and I am back with my wife (entirely, not with my mind still struggling with the OW); then, her concerns will fade. There is a lot of work that I will need to do to regain her, but I am prepared for that. I know, I may or may not be successful, there is no guarantee.

 

In that case, providing now details is not the right strategy to minimize pain.

 

On the other hand, if for some reason later on she gets new information and discovers the extent of the A. Then, it would be a situation very much like yours. In that case, the pain would have probably be minimized if I would have come clean beforehand (I say probably, because I am not entirely sure; I know you feel that if your H would have told you, you would have felt better... maybe yes, maybe not, or maybe you are right but maybe for other women works differently, I am not sure one can make a generalization).

 

All in all, the question is: how likely is it that my wife ever discovers the full extent of the A if I dont disclose?

 

I believe it is very likely she discovers if the A continues in any form or shape. I will be scrutinized every time I get close to the OW, when I travel to her office or when we do any work together. Given the emotional involvement, I will not be able to compartmentalize, my wife will notice and ask, as she is expecting a change in my attitude. Also, there is a chance that the OW is caught on her side; even if she is better than me at hiding emotions, she is not immune and her stbh will notice that something is going on. Finally, at some point other people in the team will realize, just for little details. All in all, if I continue with the A, it is the end of my marriage (and not the beginning of a new life with the OW, we would be burnt out of each other).

 

Now, if we end the A for good and we dont see each other anymore, I think the likelihood my wife discovers by some other source is quite slim. The whole episode will fade, specially if I work on recovering my wife, really focusing on her.

 

Finally, with regards to the wedding. I am thinking all the time on how to get out without making it too obvious. I still have not figure out how, other than telling my wife that I have feelings for the OW. That may have all sorts of consequences as my business partner is also coming. The moment that trigger is pulled, anything can happen.

The alternative is that we go, I somehow put on a poker face and we leave early and discreetly.

Either option is bad. I am still deciding which one is worse. I am inclined to attending, I know it is a really bad idea, but at least I have some control on the situation. Still deciding.

 

Thanks again.-

[Starswillshine]

What you arent getting is that you are altering your wife's state of reality. It is exceptionally cruel and abusive. It is defintionally gaslighting. She suspects something, you deny it.

 

The risk you are taking only benefits yourself. You are continuing the selfish behavior. Your world will blow up. If your wife is suspicious, she will likely find out. I didnt stop until I got the truth. Unless you control the situation how, it could be humiliating to you.

 

But you, like my ex-husband, think you know better. Think you can control all the outcomes. And will be sorely mistaken when everything falls and are left as a lonely man... I'm sure you'll find lots of little play things but no one to love you and care for you at home.

[Acacia98]

I think what many people are getting at and you arent quite understanding is the cruelness of what you are doing to your wife by alluding to but never confirming her suspicions. I know it seems cruel to you, but you already did the cruel thing. If I were you, I would sit down with your wife and tell her that she is correct, it went further than you have admitted to and ask her what details she would like to have. And answer any and all questions she has. Keep answers less detailed and tell her you could go into more details if she likes, but you are trying to be respectful to her now (even though you failed her there before). You have to start rebuilding trust BEFORE it all comes crashing down.

 

...

 

I have been in your wife's shoes. I have had a husband who thought he knew what was best for me. It was a cruel reality and pure hell for me to know in my gut, but to have to question it. It makes a person question herself and wonder if her gut and judgement is off. You arent in her position, nor do you know what it is like, it is a cruel hell. When I finally learned the truth (or what pieces I could get from evidence), it was relieving to know that my gut has not failed me. I no longer felt crazy. I no longer just felt insecure. I felt empowered in a weird way knowing I knew it all along. That I was right. It hurt like hell for sure, but the damage was done the moment he began his affair.

 

This is exactly what I was thinking about. You describe it so excellently.

 

It is cruel. It wounds deeply. And the damage it causes can last a lifetime.

[ManMar]

What you arent getting is that you are altering your wife's state of reality. It is exceptionally cruel and abusive. It is defintionally gaslighting. She suspects something, you deny it.

 

The risk you are taking only benefits yourself. You are continuing the selfish behavior. Your world will blow up. If your wife is suspicious, she will likely find out. I didnt stop until I got the truth. Unless you control the situation how, it could be humiliating to you.

 

But you, like my ex-husband, think you know better. Think you can control all the outcomes. And will be sorely mistaken when everything falls and are left as a lonely man... I'm sure you'll find lots of little play things but no one to love you and care for you at home.

 

Hi, I understand your reaction and the empathy for my wife, you are both victims.

 

However, my motivations are those that I have described, not those of your husband or those you think I have. I got into the A out of selfishness, I am not getting out for the same reasons.

 

I know I cannot control all the outcomes and there is a risk everything turns very sour. Not because I think there is karma, it is bc I think it is a very real possibility.

 

Thanks for the interest.-

[Acacia98]

I know what gaslighting is, I have never blamed my wife or make her insecure with manipulation, actually quite the opposite. Yes, there is deception and denial involved in an A, but in my case never along the lines of gaslighting. I have never hurt my wife to make me feel better or superior, that is not me. This affair is a betrayal, which in itself is already bad enough, no need to look for something else that is not happening.

 

I think gaslighting does come into play. Because she seems to suspect that you are having a full-on affair and you actually denied it was physical. That could easily cause her to doubt what her own instincts are telling her and make her think she's going crazy when she really isn't.

 

Also, you are manipulating her. When you very calculatingly decide to leave out certain bits of information in your conversations with your wife (deceitful omissions) so that she will be more likely to feel a certain way and, therefore, to respond the way you want her to respond, that is manipulation.

[pepperbird]

op,

it sounds like you are placing a lot of importance on this wedding, seeing it as some sort of inevitable ending to your affair.

 

 

That's all well and good, but what are your plans for after the wedding? What are you going to do to help keep yourself from reaching out? Do you have a "go to" plan ready?

[ManMar]

op,

it sounds like you are placing a lot of importance on this wedding, seeing it as some sort of inevitable ending to your affair.

 

 

That's all well and good, but what are your plans for after the wedding? What are you going to do to help keep yourself from reaching out? Do you have a "go to" plan ready?

 

Yes, the wedding is like the point of no return. It has a lot of meaning.

 

The relationship between the OW and me is already broken. We have jumped from fight to fight for I dont know how long now, as the anxiety increased with the wedding approaching. Last Sunday was the last one, after which we went NC. We gave ourselves two weeks of no personal communication. I have to visit the office on the week of the 22nd.

 

She wants to put an end to the A, me too. It is not fun anymore, it is all drama. Neither of us sees a future. She is getting married and I want to stay with my wife. We are both swimming in opposite directions.

 

She wanted the relief of the NC to focus on the wedding, I wanted the NC to start changing my mindset. I would say she is 99% convinced and I am 95%. Last time we broke up it was her, and I didnot allow it, I dont know why, she was totally right and adamant that she could not take more drama; at the same time, she would answer my texts and follow reluctantly my lead... but only to some extent, we are not close to each other anymore.

 

There is only one conversation left between us. It is on the details of how to part ways, given that we work together. It is a very unpleasant fact that we need to face. I have a short letter written to that effect that I have not sent yet. I want an amicable finish, as there are all sorts of implications.

 

After that, I think it is going to be a combination of willpower and reality what is going to keep us separated. She will be newly married, new plans, leaving the company, etc. Even if I reached out, she would not be interested. I really think so. The "go to" in my case, is my family.

[elaine567]

Is her leaving the company official with a date?

Is your partner aware?

other staff? your wife?

[BaileyB]

My friend, don’t put it in writing. You don’t want a paper trail, in case she makes a claim of wrongful dismissal or sexual harassment.

[anika99]

Not sure why you're so offended that she didn't tell her friends about you. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You're the one who is married and lying to your wife. You look your wife in the eyes, the woman you made vows to, and lie to her. Your OW looks her fiance in the eyes, the man she is about to make vows to and lies to him. You are both already talented liars and you both know it so not sure why you got so weirdly upset that she lied to her friends. Besides have you called up all of your friends and told them all about your relationship with the OW?

[Amethyst68]

You say you want to stay with your wife but have acknowledged you would leave if OW stopped the wedding and agreed to your timeline.

 

 

OP - do you love your wife? You have told us how fantastic she is, how she is a better person than you but I can't recall you ever mentioning love....

[ManMar]

Is her leaving the company official with a date?

Is your partner aware?

other staff? your wife?

 

Hi Miss Crusader,

 

I have told my partner that she might be leaving, I also told my wife. I wanted to give a heads up so that it is all smoothed.

 

My partner will want to retain her, so I have to make clear with her that staying close in any way is not an option. You know what, I wish I could just switch off so that she could stay and we could work together. I honestly cannot.

 

The OW's stbh is now in a different city, so there you have the excuse: they want to be together.

 

I told my wife, I was so visibly upset that she told me "there is something personal between the two of you, it doesnot make sense that you have that emotional reaction to her leaving, or to her wedding or to anything that goes around that girl". I confirm that there was more than just a work relation.

 

So now there is a possibility of her leaving, but we have not agreed on anything concrete. My plan is that we dont see each other after the honeymoon, any pending issues we will handle by email.

[ManMar]

My friend, don’t put it in writing. You don’t want a paper trail, in case she makes a claim of wrongful dismissal or sexual harassment.

 

Thanks, I know that, I wont. There is paper trail on mutual ILYs up to last Thursday though.

 

In any case, legal issues are not a concern to me, there is no risk in this case for a number of reasons that I cant discuss.

 

Having said that, I obviously prefer an amicable departure. I have not sent that letter bc it has an angry tone that I think should not be there.

 

I think I will need to discuss with her face to face. She knows she has to leave, we discussed that in the past. I don't anticipate any issues, but you never know, we will see.

[georgia girl]

My friend, don’t put it in writing. You don’t want a paper trail, in case she makes a claim of wrongful dismissal or sexual harassment.

 

My thoughts exactly. You link her employment in any way to any relationship you have and you’re inviting a claim. You also need to come clean with your partner.

 

OP, it’s obvious to me and everyone on this board that you are gaslighting your wife (your actions are the very definition) and you will engage in some fairly sophisticated mental gymnastics to attempt to present your deceit in some honorable way... despite the few BS who have explained that the lying is worse. At this point, I am thinking, “chart your own course.” But for a guy who made a whole lot of bad decisions to get himself into this mess, doesn’t it seem at some point your should listen to the advice of others? Just sayin... .

[ManMar]

Not sure why you're so offended that she didn't tell her friends about you. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You're the one who is married and lying to your wife. You look your wife in the eyes, the woman you made vows to, and lie to her. Your OW looks her fiance in the eyes, the man she is about to make vows to and lies to him. You are both already talented liars and you both know it so not sure why you got so weirdly upset that she lied to her friends. Besides have you called up all of your friends and told them all about your relationship with the OW?

 

This is a repeated argument in affairs, as if we as humans are only capable of behaving one way. It is a presumption that everything must be a lie. Well, it is not, at least in my experience. Yes, we are capable of lying, that doesnot mean you do it all the time.

 

I have not lied to this OW. She doesnot know what is my mind anymore, but I have not lied to her. I asked her the same, that we needed to keep an island of total transparency between us, given how we ended up together. Having said that, there were a number of red flags that make me doubt her, but I do think she was genuine.

 

I got upset that she went away celebrating the farce of this wedding with her closest friends and at the same time was telling my ILY. That is why I asked her if she had disclosed to them, not the details, but at least disclosing that something else really big had been going on. It may seem an inconsistency, it is not in my mind.

 

On my side, I have told two close friends about it. One is my first real girlfriend, we've kept friendship for the last 25y. The other is an old time male friend. Obviously both advised me to finish it for good.

[ManMar]

You say you want to stay with your wife but have acknowledged you would leave if OW stopped the wedding and agreed to your timeline.

 

 

OP - do you love your wife? You have told us how fantastic she is, how she is a better person than you but I can't recall you ever mentioning love....

 

At some point the idea of leaving everything and going with the OW crossed my mind, I was like a year ago. It has crossed my mind again, but only daydreaming. It is not only the timeline, it is also that I had a bit of common sense left to see that it could never work. Also, she could not reconcile that with her family, that was a big issue too; probably she also thought it could never work.

 

Not sure how to measure love. I do have many positive feelings for my wife, I dont think I would be able to find a woman like her. However, I dont feel the passion that I have felt for the OW, I am not referring to sexual passion, I mean the need to be with her in every sense.

[ManMar]

My thoughts exactly. You link her employment in any way to any relationship you have and you’re inviting a claim. You also need to come clean with your partner.

 

OP, it’s obvious to me and everyone on this board that you are gaslighting your wife (your actions are the very definition) and you will engage in some fairly sophisticated mental gymnastics to attempt to present your deceit in some honorable way... despite the few BS who have explained that the lying is worse. At this point, I am thinking, “chart your own course.” But for a guy who made a whole lot of bad decisions to get himself into this mess, doesn’t it seem at some point your should listen to the advice of others? Just sayin... .

 

I listen and there are a number of good points. Listening is not the same as following it blindly. People see life through their own experience and there are many hurt people here. It'd be interesting to hear the opinions of those that were at the other side, not just the victims. I am sure that most affairs go unnoticed, although this is obviously just my gut speaking, who knows.

[pepperbird]

I People see life through their own experience and there are many hurt people here. It'd be interesting to hear the opinions of those that were at the other side, not just the victims.

 

 

sir,

I'm one of the people who has advised you to tell the truth, and it's not because I was hurt. My spouse's affair was more than 10 years ago. At first, he tried the whole keeping it under wraps thing, but he eventually told me the truth.

That was exquisitely painful, but it was better than the crazy making of being lied to.

 

 

 

As for the lying...your ow is well versed in that it's actually quite disgusting. She will bleed her poor husband dry and then move on, I guess. What I don;t get it how you can go to the wedding and see his face, full of hope and love when he looks into hers and makes vows to her. I just couldn't do that. There would be too much guilt.

 

I hope they don't have kids. That would be one of the most selfish things she could do.