Still no dates.

[Garcon1986]

Mr right honorable PRW, he is willing to discuss by PM. He's provided several of us lots of information.

[PRW]

Mr right honorable PRW, he is willing to discuss by PM. He's provided several of us lots of information.

Then no point in having the public thread.

[LightWave93]

Then no point in having the public thread.

 

All the information is available in this thread, bar my pics / vid which would reveal my identity.

 

Details such as what events I go to, where I try to meet women etc are all here.

 

Perhaps I should give up and resign to the fact that I'm not desirable to women. A sad realisation to come to at 25 but if I had no luck at uni, counselors & coaches can't help, then I guess I'm stumped.

[edgygirl]

I don't think so, because it's probably same as here - you already sound likeable here, it's probably the same there.

 

I am at a loss.

 

Something is not turning women on and it must be either the way you manage the communication process or your body language / energy live. Perhaps do some therapy, you might have a breakthrough one day.

 

As an example - I also thought there was nothing wrong with me, and I recently had a psychological breakthrough that although shocking to me, is a relief to have the knowledge to now work on it. Good luck on your journey of figuring out, you deserve it. Remember to be open to find out it might be something that will surprise you.

 

I have conversations I can show you, with several girls on Reddit, but this isn't potential dates. Would that do?

[normal person]

But sometimes I don't know where your head is at. You've criticized me before for not asking out enough women, and now it's the total opposite.

 

That's never been my MO. If you're as appealing and attractive as you say you are, then you shouldn't need to do any of the legwork yourself. All it does is surrender your clout to the other person, and if you mishandle it, you can really look insecure. Attractive and appealing people attract and appeal to people. If you don't, you aren't -- at least not as much as you're being lead to believe. Actions speak louder than words. I'm sure you're a handsome, congenial, smart guy with a lot going for you, but that doesn't mean you don't have your fair share of fumbles as well. You might not even realize you're committing them.

 

What is it, exactly, are you wanting me to do? For the record, I have also tried that suggestion; hell at the moment I'm on no dating sites, working hard, learning to dance, volunteering (aboard) when I can, gym, spending time with friends...I don't have much time to be asking out women (not that I come across many right now).

 

Recently, I've been going to the bar / night clubs more. I dress well, look groomed, smell nice, don't have a resting bitch face, open posture...women do not notice me, much less approach me. I have NEVER been approached by a woman in my life.

 

 

Ok, but...

 

One female friend describes me as a "lady's man". Another said that I don't realize how attractive I am. Yet another said I don't notice when girls are into me (which is really odd, given the circumstances). I had another holding onto my arm one night saying that even though we'd just met, she felt very comfortable around me.

 

You sound like you contradict yourself, or are maybe just unaware -- in which case, problem solved: just be more aware.

 

Perhaps I should give up and resign to the fact that I'm not desirable to women. A sad realisation to come to at 25 but if I had no luck at uni, counselors & coaches can't help, then I guess I'm stumped.

 

What I think is confusing for most people here is how often you say you have people singing your praises, and at the same time, no one, not even those people, wants anything to do with you on anything more than a platonic level. You need to explain the white space of incongruence between what these girls say about you and their reluctance to view you sexually. These girls, who talk so highly of you, whose judgment you expect everyone to give the benefit of the doubt, are also the same girls who also have no interest in being with you. It doesn't make any logical sense. Talk seems cheap. What do you think? If you had a female friend you were trying to set up with a male friend of yours, and you said "she's attractive, smart, funny, and with a lot going for her," how would you respond when he asks why you don't want to be with her yourself?

Edited January 7, 2019 by normal person

[Garcon1986]

Mr Lightwave is a CAB, Certified Attractive Bloke, which any of my colleague nurses would be dying to sleep with and have a LTR. He's got opinions about things, he has hobbies, he is well behaved with others, and does have quite the British sense of humor. The only possibilities left I can think of are:

 

- the women in his life are intimidated and think they don't measure up

- he is not as aware of his projected body language as is described on this forum

- he needs to explore further social circles around the UK

- the conversations that are going on in a dating context are bland and don't tickle the women's fancy.

- he projects the good guy vibe, and is just unlucky enough to be in a sea of women who want only "bad boys"

[elaine567]

Or he is everyone's good friend and thus is not really seen as a sexual/romantic prospect.

Some people ooze "sex", ugly guys can ooze "sex" too and that can make them very attractive to women.

 

Its a fine line, too much "sex" oozed can be seen as offensive or even cheesy or laughable, too little and no-one notices...

[Garcon1986]

Elaine how do you propose to teach a man how to better ooze sex?

[elaine567]

It is difficult to quantify really and I guess may be different to different women. It is something about the way he moves, his mannerisms, the things he does, the things he says... etc. etc..

There is some sort of oomph factor that just hits the right spot.

I could say it is a masculine energy but some bits of masculine energy can be off putting to some women, so it is not as simple as that.

It is one of those things, that you may not know what it is but you recognise it straight away when you see it, feel it...

[LightWave93]

Well, I went to uni today looking my absolute best and I was not noticed once. So pretty sure I need to give up. I'm not desirable, and will never find love / intimacy.

 

I'm sure you're a handsome, congenial, smart guy with a lot going for you, but that doesn't mean you don't have your fair share of fumbles as well.

 

Everyone has flaws, but those positives you highlight are often enough to find an opening in the dating / casual sex world. Whatever my flaws are, nobody has been able to pick up on what they are.

 

What I think is confusing for most people here is how often you say you have people singing your praises, and at the same time, no one, not even those people, wants anything to do with you on anything more than a platonic level. You need to explain the white space of incongruence between what these girls say about you and their reluctance to view you sexually. These girls, who talk so highly of you, whose judgment you expect everyone to give the benefit of the doubt, are also the same girls who also have no interest in being with you. It doesn't make any logical sense. Talk seems cheap. What do you think? If you had a female friend you were trying to set up with a male friend of yours, and you said "she's attractive, smart, funny, and with a lot going for her," how would you respond when he asks why you don't want to be with her yourself?

 

An intelligent man such as yourself shouldn't even need to ask this question. It's possible for a man and a woman to cross paths, find each other physically and emotionally appealing, and not want to form a romantic / sexual relationship. In my case, I simply have a bunch of female friends who I only want a platonic relationship with, and the feelings are mutual. There's nothing alien about that.

 

I cannot tell you why the girl who complimented my appearance in her first message on Tinder, enthusiastically gave me her number and agreed to a date, suddenly ghosted me. I can't date / have sex with the many women online who have complimented my appearance when I've sought feedback. I cannot tell you why I never receive attention otherwise.

 

Believe me, I do not feel attractive, but literally else says otherwise. Hell, showed a friend an outfit I plan on wearing for my upcoming birthday celebrations, and I was told I'd look incredibly handsome.

 

Mr Lightwave is a CAB, Certified Attractive Bloke, which any of my colleague nurses would be dying to sleep with and have a LTR. He's got opinions about things, he has hobbies, he is well behaved with others, and does have quite the British sense of humor.

 

Thanks for the compliments.

 

Or he is everyone's good friend and thus is not really seen as a sexual/romantic prospect.

Some people ooze "sex", ugly guys can ooze "sex" too and that can make them very attractive to women.

 

Then let's flip this around; YOU give me examples of what I should be doing. It's all well-and-good telling me I should be this or that, but what course of action should I be taking to impress women, because if it's the following...

 

So I guess what I mean is, try to emulate more passionate men... look women in the eyes, compliment them, their hair, whatever doesn't freak non-latin women out...

 

...then I already do it.

[clia]

I would like you to expand upon your volunteering and your experience with extracurricular clubs either in our outside of your school.

 

Are these "one off" things, or are you involved in clubs/volunteering that you attend on a regular basis (that involve monthly meetings, committees, weekly events, etc.), where you are consistently around the same group of people, etc.?

 

Take us through the last time you met a girl through either volunteering or a club. How did you meet, how did the conversation flow, when and how did you ask her out, what was her reaction, etc.?

 

You've said that women don't show interest in you, but it's unclear to me how much interest you are showing in them. Setting aside Tinder and other online apps, how often are you actually asking women out on dates in real life? When was the last time you did so and can you explain to us how it went (how you met, how long you had known her, etc.)? When was the last time you attended a party where there were eligible women around for you to try to date?

[LightWave93]

I appreciate the discussion, but it's not really helpful for this thread. Stay on target!

 

I would like you to expand upon your volunteering and your experience with extracurricular clubs either in our outside of your school.

 

Certainly.

 

I have over 300 hours worth of volunteering experience across three years at university. This was from being on the committee for two societies, helping customers at a library and representing my peers (numbering in thousands). As well as this, I've done one-off volunteering experiences, namely going to aboard to help at a warehouse.

 

In terms of extra-curricular, I've jumped all over the place. I've done Badminton, two clubs that tend to favor a female demographic, gaming, hiking, rock climbing. Currently I'm going to the gym on a regular basis and attending dance lessons; at this moment in time, due to my career choice, I can't fit much more else in.

 

There's a little bit of vagueness here to protect my privacy, but much of the detail is there.

 

Take us through the last time you met a girl through either volunteering or a club. How did you meet, how did the conversation flow, when and how did you ask her out, what was her reaction, etc.?

 

Dance class, though many of the women there are older / married / have kids. The literal last woman I met, I drove her home at night and she invited me into her home for a coffee.

 

In terms of my own age group, I danced with one girl who had been doing the club much longer than me; I introduced myself, asked her what brought her to the dance class, if she lived local, and she responded well. It was only a brief conversation as we were rotating dance partners.

 

I can't think of the last woman I asked out in person, because I have not met any available women for quite some time.

 

When was the last time you attended a party where there were eligible women around for you to try to date?

 

I go to house parties fairly regular, though not as often as I used to. Usually there's at least one new girl there. The last big house party I went to there were three girls present; the one I got speaking to a little bit (and enacted the cowgirl sex position on me, as part of a drinking game, so was clearly comfortable around me), but she got really drunk and ignored me for most of the night. The second I spoke to very briefly, but she was very quiet (and most certainly out of my league). The third I got talking to a fair amount, danced with, and I ended up walking her home.

[Garcon1986]

I think you done the right thing goes to those house parties old chap. The objective here would be to -

be hyper perceptive of your body language and her body language, and flirt as hard as you can. You'll be clearer on what exactly women like and don't like about you. Your female friends in your immediate circle are being nice and not telling you what they don't like because they are just friends.

 

 

You'll get loads of extra flirting feedback this way since online dating hasn't been successful.

[Garcon1986]

You've checked off loads of very good boxes mate, here's what's potentially left over:

 

 

- the women in your life are intimidated and think they don't measure up

- you are not as aware of your projected body language as is described on this forum

- you need to explore further social circles around the UK

- the conversations that are going on in a dating context are bland and don't tickle the women's fancy. There's not enough flirtiness to them.

- he projects the good guy vibe, and is just unlucky enough to be in a sea of women who want only "bad boys"

• 
  

[LightWave93]

I think you done the right thing goes to those house parties old chap. The objective here would be to -

be hyper perceptive of your body language and her body language, and flirt as hard as you can. You'll be clearer on what exactly women like and don't like about you. Your female friends in your immediate circle are being nice and not telling you what they don't like because they are just friends.

 

Unfortunately house parties are not too often now-a-days because most of my friends are out of uni (finished their three years, I'm on my fourth), and the few friends I have living locally...I've met all their friends. Even then, I can still think back to previous house parties, being the better dressed / most talkative person in the room, and still being overlooked.

 

And as I've said, past a certain level of attractiveness, I never seem to develop any sort of bond with a woman. I don't think I've even interacted with a woman past a "7/10", if it were to scale it.

 

As for my female friends; I really do understand where you guys are coming from about this, but I also do not believe for a second that they are lying to me. The feedback I've received has been consistent across the board, and even the odd few women who I have met up with from online have said there was nothing they could identify...and they owe me nothing.

 

You've checked off loads of very good boxes mate, here's what's potentially left over:

 

- the women in your life are intimidated and think they don't measure up

- you are not as aware of your projected body language as is described on this forum

- you need to explore further social circles around the UK

- the conversations that are going on in a dating context are bland and don't tickle the women's fancy. There's not enough flirtiness to them.

- he projects the good guy vibe, and is just unlucky enough to be in a sea of women who want only "bad boys"

 

- I can't imagine them being intimidated by me. I'm not THAT attractive.

- I have no idea what could be off about my body language; I stand tall, I don't fold my arms or go sit in a corner.

- Well, that's always possible, but right now I'm stuck with the location I'm in.

- Not interacting with enough available women to judge that, but going by past interactions; the "banter" has been quite playful, flirty, made them laugh etc.

- Probably. As I've said, I'm not the boisterous sports player. I'm the Computer Science teacher who just so happens to be extroverted and have a good lifestyle. I'm not the type of lad that spends every weekend at a bar with his lads, getting wasted and talking about football.

 

Also, curious thing to note; I become less confident when I drink alcohol, so I don't so much anymore. I also abstain from porn (that was mentioned a few posts ago), though occasionally go back due to frustration.

[Garcon1986]

There's intimidation by hotness and intimidation by achievements? You keep your resume under wraps I presume until down the road?

 

 

What about your skill level at keeping physical escalation going at the same time as flirty conversation?

 

 

Keep on seeking out more social interactions in real life old chap, and be hyper perceptive about them. In the meantime, also ask couples you know (preferably the women) how they were successful in flirting with each other and compare to yourself.

[normal person]

Well, I went to uni today looking my absolute best and I was not noticed once. So pretty sure I need to give up. I'm not desirable, and will never find love / intimacy.

 

But you said previously that people tell you you don't know when people are attracted to you.

 

Everyone has flaws, but those positives you highlight are often enough to find an opening in the dating / casual sex world.

 

Often, not always. Especially if there's some other issue that negates these things.

 

Whatever my flaws are, nobody has been able to pick up on what they are.

 

And/or nobody can articulate it, or no one has told you.

 

An intelligent man such as yourself shouldn't even need to ask this question. It's possible for a man and a woman to cross paths, find each other physically and emotionally appealing, and not want to form a romantic / sexual relationship. In my case, I simply have a bunch of female friends who I only want a platonic relationship with, and the feelings are mutual. There's nothing alien about that.

 

Yeah, but what is a little odd, all things considered given the circumstances, taking everything these women say about you at face value, is that not one of these women or any other has wanted to test the waters with you. Especially in the early/mid 20s when caution is more easily thrown to the wind. You would expect to move further than you have with at least 1 in 75 if everything these people say is true and they aren't omitting anything. But you haven't. All signs point to something you aren't aware of, or are dismissing as inaccurate.

 

I cannot tell you why the girl who complimented my appearance in her first message on Tinder, enthusiastically gave me her number and agreed to a date, suddenly ghosted me. I can't date / have sex with the many women online who have complimented my appearance when I've sought feedback. I cannot tell you why I never receive attention otherwise.

 

Believe me, I do not feel attractive, but literally else says otherwise. Hell, showed a friend an outfit I plan on wearing for my upcoming birthday celebrations, and I was told I'd look incredibly handsome.

 

This behavior is sort of what I/others have theorized might be a big part of your problem. Actually asking these women to "give feedback" and showing outfits (?), it all just seems desperate and needy. If this is the energy you're giving off, it's not really a surprise that you struggle. It seems as if you're trying awfully hard, which makes you seem like lack confidence, which is a big red flag. Asking people for advice/help, seeking feedback, showing outfits, it's very feminine or immature for a man your age. You're 25 and all your friends are younger, you should be the one giving them answers, not looking to them for guidance because you're unsure of yourself. As someone a little older, you're uniquely positioned to display your additional wisdom and confidence that comes with your age, but the fact that you're older than these people and somehow know less and are more insecure is exponentially worse for your sex appeal.

 

Also, saying a friend will look "incredibly handsome" in an outfit that they show you is probably par for the course. They know you're probably insecure about things given your history of lackluster romance and advice seeking, and they want to help make you feel confident going forward. I'm sure you will look great, but it's meaningless to read so much into it coming from a friend. If a female friend or girlfriend said this to me I would forget about it in 3 seconds. It's just how they are. Statements like that, if that's all they are, don't hold any weight. There's a universe of difference between a friend saying "Yeah, you'll look incredibly handsome in that," and a stranger from across the bar catching a glimpse, then traveling to come up to you and compliment you/it.

 

You shouldn't judge your appeal on what people say, you should judge it on what they do...or don't do.

 

Until someone thinks you're incredibly handsome enough to overlook whatever is keeping people from seeing you in a romantically viable way, it's just talk.

 

My advice is stop seeking advice or feedback from people in real life, stop showing outfits, etc. It just makes you look incapable and insecure, and these things are hyper visible. I'd fight through that uncertainty and act like I didn't care (even if I secretly did), because the alternative isn't doing any favors.

[LightWave93]

There's intimidation by hotness and intimidation by achievements? You keep your resume under wraps I presume until down the road?

 

There's no possible way they would know about my achievements. There's no waiting involved, my interaction just don't get to that point.

 

What about your skill level at keeping physical escalation going at the same time as flirty conversation?

 

Depends on context. Tickling, touching arm, light pushing, holding hand / waist if dancing together. I can't think of much else one could do without being creepy, and to be perfectly honest...I've never seen any other men physically escalate.

 

Keep on seeking out more social interactions in real life old chap, and be hyper perceptive about them. In the meantime, also ask couples you know (preferably the women) how they were successful in flirting with each other and compare to yourself.

 

With respect, you're asking me to seek out more social interactions after I've spent an entire three, almost four years doing just that. At this point in my life, such occasions will be fewer due to other priorities. I've essentially missed out on the fun part of my life, in this aspect.

 

I've asked around; it just so happens my friends were open to meeting men, and wasn't down to any specific occurrence. They got asked out, online or offline, and took the chance.

[LightWave93]

Yeah, but what is a little odd, all things considered given the circumstances, taking everything these women say about you at face value, is that not one of these women or any other has wanted to test the waters with you. Especially in the early/mid 20s when caution is more easily thrown to the wind. You would expect to move further than you have with at least 1 in 75 if everything these people say is true and they aren't omitting anything. But you haven't. All signs point to something you aren't aware of, or are dismissing as inaccurate.

 

I really don't have anything else to say to this. It's perfectly normal to establish platonic friendships with the opposite sex.

 

This behavior is sort of what I/others have theorized might be a big part of your problem. Actually asking these women to "give feedback" and showing outfits (?), it all just seems desperate and needy.

 

You misunderstand. She asked the dress code for the planned event, and I said I typically go in...and showed her. Plus, she's dating someone, much older and has a kid. So, not a candidate.

 

Asking people for advice/help, seeking feedback, showing outfits, it's very feminine or immature for a man your age.

 

**** me. You lot tell me to ask those closest to me what's up, but I get criticized when I do or told they may be lying. And the abundance of feedback I've received have been counselors, dating coaches and online.

 

You're 25 and all your friends are younger, you should be the one giving them answers, not looking to them for guidance because you're unsure of yourself.

 

Not that much older, and some are older than me.

 

My advice is stop seeking advice or feedback from people in real life, stop showing outfits, etc. It just makes you look incapable and insecure, and these things are hyper visible. I'd fight through that uncertainty and act like I didn't care (even if I secretly did), because the alternative isn't doing any favors.

 

You make too many assumptions.

[Garcon1986]

What do you think about normal person's last paragraph?

 

And are you just dating and hoping something happens, or actually dating and flirting with specific things you learned from the last time, to avoid on your next date?

 

I share in your frustrations mate as I have many of the same. We're all in this together.

Edited January 7, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Fix spacing

[LightWave93]

What do you think about normal person's last paragraph?

 

normal_person doesn't seem to grasp that I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't. I've made a lot of effort, and at times I've made non. The situation literally does not change; the only difference is, making some effort at least means I'm working on it.

 

And are you just dating and hoping something happens, or actually dating and flirting with specific things you learned from the last time, to avoid on your next date?

 

I'm not getting dates, so I can't answer this question.

[Garcon1986]

Well in the last few times you've flirted with a woman, have you been taking mental notes of what was good and what was bad? Or just kind of wandering through the interaction? I'm referring to dates plus flirts plus any other kind of sexy interaction.

[LightWave93]

Well in the last few times you've flirted with a woman, have you been taking mental notes of what was good and what was bad? Or just kind of wandering through the interaction? I'm referring to dates plus flirts plus any other kind of sexy interaction.

 

Nothing's ever stood out as an issue, and my interactions generally go well. On the rare occasion, someone who may have overheard has even commented saying "Things are going well" or words to that effect.

 

But again, this is only at times where we have a mutual interest or are at a party. I've never interacted with woman at a bar or club.

[clia]

In terms of extra-curricular, I've jumped all over the place. I've done Badminton, two clubs that tend to favor a female demographic, gaming, hiking, rock climbing. Currently I'm going to the gym on a regular basis and attending dance lessons; at this moment in time, due to my career choice, I can't fit much more else in.

 

There's a little bit of vagueness here to protect my privacy, but much of the detail is there.

 

(Stay as vague as you feel you need to in responding.)

 

For these clubs, were you attending events weekly, monthly, or how often? Were there also social events outside of the sport or gaming that you were able to participate in?

 

What I'm trying to get at is that usually if you are involved in sports clubs and attend on a regular basis, you naturally get to meet others within the club, form friendships, meet women, etc. Did that happen?

 

Dance class, though many of the women there are older / married / have kids. The literal last woman I met, I drove her home at night and she invited me into her home for a coffee.

 

And then what happened?

 

Did you go in for coffee?

 

How did you end up driving her home?

 

Did you see her again at the next class, and if so, then what happened?

 

In terms of my own age group, I danced with one girl who had been doing the club much longer than me; I introduced myself, asked her what brought her to the dance class, if she lived local, and she responded well. It was only a brief conversation as we were rotating dance partners.

 

Did you interact with her again at the next class or another class after this happened?

 

The third I got talking to a fair amount, danced with, and I ended up walking her home.

 

And then what happened?

 

How did you end up walking her home?

 

Did you ask for her number or contact info, friend her on Facebook, follow her on social media? If not, why not?

[LightWave93]

(Stay as vague as you feel you need to in responding.)

 

For these clubs, were you attending events weekly, monthly, or how often? Were there also social events outside of the sport or gaming that you were able to participate in?

 

What I'm trying to get at is that usually if you are involved in sports clubs and attend on a regular basis, you naturally get to meet others within the club, form friendships, meet women, etc. Did that happen?

 

They all varied. Most were weekly, with intermittent breaks for my own personal study. Some were one-offs. I participated in many different events outside of those areas.

 

I made friends, mostly female, but cut off contact with a lot of them as they were toxic (one hospitalized another, others spread rumors etc).

 

And then what happened?

 

Did you go in for coffee?

 

How did you end up driving her home?

 

Did you see her again at the next class, and if so, then what happened?

 

Sorry, didn't make it clear; she was one of the ones outside of my age. I was trying to highlight that women are clearly not uncomfortable in my presence.

 

I went in, met her son. She asked me to drive her home as she hadn't driven to the location herself and it was on my way home.

 

Not seen her since, it was last week.

 

And then what happened?

 

How did you end up walking her home?

 

Did you ask for her number or contact info, friend her on Facebook, follow her on social media? If not, why not?

 

Nothing. I stopped at her place, left the next morning.

 

She lived further away then everyone else. She was comfortable with me, I volunteered to walk her the rest of the way.

 

We're in contact, yes (phone and number), and I've seen her once for coffee since, then she traveled back home for the holidays. To be honest, this was one of the rare occasions I have kept in contact with someone after a night out.