What is better for kids? Divorce? Roommates?

[Artdeco]

I agree with PRW with regards to the children not giving two hoots about their parents’ love life. As long as they’re well taken care of, and the parents are respectful of each other, there is potential for a happy, safe childhood.

 

However, the OP has been dreaming of a single life for a long time, many years in fact, and he also says that it more or less feels like a chore to be with his W if they have alone time. Ugh. It’s been like this for 6+ years? I think a D is in order, to be honest. It doesn’t make a difference if she wants to fight for the M. She can’t do it on her own. The only reason OP gives when it comes to “staying” is that his W wouldn’t like to D, she’s a fighter for what she wants, and that she’s a strong person. But what does HE want? If he’s that desperate to get out, staying for the kids, especially as roommates, will make him even more miserable, and this will bleed into all his other relationships he has, incl the one he has with his kids.

 

And what would a roommate situation look like in this case? Would they have sex with other people? Date? You can only pretend so long for the sake of the kids. I believe it’s not sustainable.

 

And wrapping up, starting with my first paragraph, stating the the kids don’t care what their parents’ love life looks like, having 2 households would benefit them best, imo. As long as the parents are 100% there for them, and treat one another with respect.

[PRW]

The roots rest in part with us having come together so young and both of us being so immature at the time.

 

Just excuses. If that were the problem the marriage would have failed then instead of now. This isn't twenty years ago, and you can't blame "20 years ago" on today. You're both 20 years older, 20 years more mature. Are you saying that you were more capable of making a marriage work when you were 20 years younger and 20 years less mature,...sounds like it.

 

We have tried couples therapy, individual therapy, relationship books, re-working our lives to make more time, and a number of other practical things to re-connect and at the end of it all,

Then you either went to the wrong therapists and read the wrong books, or didn't act on what you learned. Try Corey Wayne's book "How to be a 3% Man". It is short, cheap, and you can read it online from his web site. As the title implies it will focus on you almost exclusively. The marriage and the family's success are YOUR responsibility. You get your act together and the rest of everything else (including your wife's behavor and attitude) will fall into place naturally. It will teach you how to understand the differences in how men's minds function, how women function, an how to make it all work together better than any other book out there. Most others are just a bunch of analysis and excuse making.

[noelle303]

OK, I'll be politically incorrect.

 

Roommates is the answer, as long as the roommates are civil. Kids just want a stable home with both parents. They don't give a crap if the parents are all "huggy-kissy-face", it's just a bonus if they are. I think most of the time when this is asked it is just people wanting to justify their divorce by suggesting "it's best for the kids". You was a kid once, did you really care if your parents were all huggy-kissy-face all the time,...no you didn't. You just didn't want them fighting and throwing dishes at each other.

 

This is just a spoiled self absorbed society we are in. If you lived in Roman times dad leaves the house for days, weeks, months at a time, hacks the enemy to pieces with a sword. He comes home, they kill an animal and eat it, the village celebrates hacking the enemy to pieces, he takes his wife in the house, makes a new baby. Leaves again to go hack up a few more enemies. Not a lot of happy-kissy-face and picnics in the park feeding the ducks. What do the kids do? The boys start swinging a sword at a tree so they can be like dad while the girls spend their time helping mom and learning how to do her side of things. When all the kids hit their later teens (if they live that long) the families arrange marriages and they get married off and the cycle repeats.

 

...and we are "worried about the kids" if mom and dad don't feel "fulfilled" and think the kids are better off being ping-ponged between mom and dad's place on a weekly basis.

 

While kids are very self-absorbed - these kids grow up to be adults. If I grew up and found out that my parents were sticking it out in unhappy marriage just because of me, I would have seriously hated myself. I would feel like I cost my parents their happiness.

 

Not to mention that roommate marriages are rarely actually civil. Parents who are "forced" to stay together grow very resentful which naturally causes tension between them. Kids pick up on tension. In many ways, tension is even worse than outright fighting.

 

We do not live in ancient times anymore, we do not live in a society where we have to endure things we don't want to due to a lack of options. We have options and we can use them to build our own lives.

 

Would your kids rather have married parents? Yes, probably. But would your kids want to watch you and their mother miserable in your marriage for the rest of their childhood? No.

[pepperbird]

While kids are very self-absorbed - these kids grow up to be adults. If I grew up and found out that my parents were sticking it out in unhappy marriage just because of me, I would have seriously hated myself. I would feel like I cost my parents their happiness.

 

Not to mention that roommate marriages are rarely actually civil. Parents who are "forced" to stay together grow very resentful which naturally causes tension between them. Kids pick up on tension. In many ways, tension is even worse than outright fighting.

 

We do not live in ancient times anymore, we do not live in a society where we have to endure things we don't want to due to a lack of options. We have options and we can use them to build our own lives.

 

Would your kids rather have married parents? Yes, probably. But would your kids want to watch you and their mother miserable in your marriage for the rest of their childhood? No.

 

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but there sure are a lot of problem in people today. I don't know whether or not that the high rate of divorce ( and the subsequent fallout) has helped to bring this about, but op, if you do decide to divorce, I would suggest that the whole family attend some counseling sessions. This can help to make it as easy as possible for the kids and you and your wife as well.

[Mr. Lucky]

Roommates is the answer, as long as the roommates are civil.

 

All you have to do to pull it off, much easier said than done...

 

Mr. Lucky

[OwenW72]

First, thanks so far for all the feedback. It's good to hear arguments both for and against divorce. And I honestly appreciate the practical advice as well as the judgments. For anyone that imagines I am looking for someone to sanction my decision or let me off the hook for doing harm, I can promise I know that I have already made my share of mistakes for my family and it has done harm.

 

And that is sort of the point here. Our marriage is objectively not well. It is between my wife and I, and we both have our part to play in that fact. And yes, we have read the books and done the therapy, and yes I have failed to do it in a way that has resulted in fixing the marriage.

 

With it not being well, I go back to the one thing I am sure my wife and I agree on. We both want the kids to have the best parents they can have. We are not that right now. I know it because I can just compare to what we were earlier in our marriage. And the choice is either keep working on getting better at it being in the same house, or keeping working at getting better at it divorced.

 

And just to say it one more time, of course I am a big part of the problem with the marriage. Kind of hard to imagine how I couldn't be as one of only two people involved in it...

 

So to some of the folks that have mostly focused on whether I should or shouldn't get divorced or how I'm doing the wrong thing to fix it. I would ask for some constructive advice on how to make a good environment for kids under one or the other circumstances.

 

How do you make a good environment for kids living together while in a struggling marriage, or as roommates?

 

How do you make a good environment for kids as separated parents?

[Mr. Lucky]

How do you make a good environment for kids as separated parents?

 

I'll focus on this one, as the other option seems untenable to me in the long-term.

 

1). You prioritize your kids, ahead of work, dating, new relationships and your own ego.

 

2). You don't badmouth your spouse and take the high road dealing with any real or perceived efforts by her to paint you in a negative light.

 

3). You actively listen to them, understanding that not all their fears or needs will be rational.

 

4). You take care of yourself, getting the right rest, exercise and nutrition so you can answer the bell. You also avoid drugs, destructive vices and excess drink.

 

5). You're very careful introducing any new partner to them and you don't expect that partner to be a substitute parent.

 

6). You stay involved, engaged and connected. Lots of opportunities through technology that didn't exist a generation ago, but you understand there's no substitute for being there.

 

7). You're honest with them in an age-appropriate way. They'll have lots of questions and your credibility depends on straight-forward answers.

 

Hope this helps...

 

Mr. Lucky

[littleblackheart]

Owen72, - you seem to have a lot of common sense and you appear to be approaching this with great care, self-awareness and thought.

 

Despite all this, and with all the good will in the world, you can't really plan ahead how to make a good environment for your kids on your own. You will need your wife's cooperation on some level, especially if you choose the 'roomates' thing - some ground rules to define your relationship would be important, I would assume.

 

You will go through stormy times whichever road you decide to take - all you can do is accept that and be the same parent you have been so far. No change on that front - to them, you are still the same person they can rely on at all times and is there for them unconditionally. Also, sometimes things will get on top of you - you'll just need to accept that and move on.

 

There is no miracle recipe or one size fits all. Your circumstances are unique so beyond generic good sense pointers, some of it will have to be played by ear.

[pepperbird]

I'll focus on this one, as the other option seems untenable to me in the long-term.

 

1). You prioritize your kids, ahead of work, dating, new relationships and your own ego.

 

2). You don't badmouth your spouse and take the high road dealing with any real or perceived efforts by her to paint you in a negative light.

 

3). You actively listen to them, understanding that not all their fears or needs will be rational.

 

4). You take care of yourself, getting the right rest, exercise and nutrition so you can answer the bell. You also avoid drugs, destructive vices and excess drink.

 

5). You're very careful introducing any new partner to them and you don't expect that partner to be a substitute parent.

 

6). You stay involved, engaged and connected. Lots of opportunities through technology that didn't exist a generation ago, but you understand there's no substitute for being there.

 

7). You're honest with them in an age-appropriate way. They'll have lots of questions and your credibility depends on straight-forward answers.

 

Hope this helps...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

 

Also, whatever you do, please don;t fall into the trap of spoiling your children or trying to buy the affections. I've seen that happen before in a divorce, and the end has never been a positive one.

[What_Did_I_Do]

I'll focus on this one, as the other option seems untenable to me in the long-term.

 

1). You prioritize your kids, ahead of work, dating, new relationships and your own ego.

 

2). You don't badmouth your spouse and take the high road dealing with any real or perceived efforts by her to paint you in a negative light.

 

3). You actively listen to them, understanding that not all their fears or needs will be rational.

 

4). You take care of yourself, getting the right rest, exercise and nutrition so you can answer the bell. You also avoid drugs, destructive vices and excess drink.

 

5). You're very careful introducing any new partner to them and you don't expect that partner to be a substitute parent.

 

6). You stay involved, engaged and connected. Lots of opportunities through technology that didn't exist a generation ago, but you understand there's no substitute for being there.

 

7). You're honest with them in an age-appropriate way. They'll have lots of questions and your credibility depends on straight-forward answers.

 

Hope this helps...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

And I'll add to this:

 

8) I apologized to my kids. Repeatedly. For failing to maintain that cohesive family unit and forcing them to become a statistic. BUT, they were older teenagers and understood the whats and whys of how things fell apart.

 

Owen, I could have written your story.

 

The good news in all of this, my kids are happy, well adjusted adults in long term relationships and thank me for believing in them enough to show them healthy vs unhealthy. It's not a storybook ending by any stretch but there was no point in all of us walking on eggshells to keep the family together.

 

xH is now with someone else. I truly do wish him the best in this life. I'm still single but that's ok, the freedom to come and go as I please and have the king size bed all to myself is...priceless!

[giotto]

What Mr. Lucky and What Did I Do say... I'm in a similar situation. I want a divorce, but I struggle with the idea of leaving everything behind, all the things I've worked very hard for. And my wife, whom I love but can't give me what I want... my little one will be off to uni next year, so no more parenting for me. We've had a rocky marriage. Good years and bad years. I was worried sick that my kids would see me as a weak/absent father but I had a chat with 2 of them just the other day and they said they really loved me and that they had a wonderful childhood despite the little problems.

 

So, you can be together and be civil towards each other and your kids will be ok. As long as you respect each other.

[bathtub-row]

I really appreciate you sharing that experience. One thing I have been curious about is how you went about communicating to your son. One struggle this past couple of years for me has been that I have been withholding a great deal from my kids in an effort to shield them from this. How did you go about talking to him? Did that come after you separated?

 

Be very careful about what you share with your kids. Never lose sight of the fact that they’re kids and don’t need to be saddled with too much adult detail - especially when it comes to their parents. If you decide to leave your marriage, then let them know that and give them a brief explanation. Believe me, they know the marriage is in trouble. You need to be the adult and tell them only what they need to know.

[bathtub-row]

The roommates scenario is ridiculous and unworkable. Don’t teach your kids that your life revolves around them. They take your lead and follow you. If you come from a position of guilt, this won’t go well for anyone. Be the parent who knows that what they’re doing is right, despite the heartache it may bring, and your kindness and confidence will be an example to them.

 

One thing I was certain about was that I was not going to teach my son to stay in a relationship that he hated being in. I taught him that he had options. He’s an adult now. He has learned to be very picky about who he’s with and is in a very solid relationship now.

 

It’s rare that young marriages work long-term. People change so much over the years. I’m guessing your children will learn this lesson.

[OwenW72]

Happiness is not a goal; it is a byproduct -

 

Eleanor Roosevelt

Great list from all. Also telling that with the exception of #6 on Mr. Lucky's list these would all pass for good standards within a marriage and with your kids.

 

I know it is cliché to say that you are "staying together for the kids", but in our case I would say "the kids are the way we are together". Our disconnect has negatively impacted our parenting at moments, but it is really the parenting part where my wife and I still feel at least in large part to be aligned. Seeing that has been helpful and gives me hope that we have that core mission to keep us cooperating. I think one part of me grappling with the question of divorce was coming to understand that divorce would have a big impact on the structure of our family. But not on our commitment to parenting together. At least that is something I have reasonable faith will hold true. But communication which has already become quite sparse and poor between my wife and I will be the area that will need some serious shoring up.

 

Right now we operate in a near constant state of avoidance. I think we both dread where a real conversation will go at this point, and anxious about the uncertainty. That leads to parenting fails and misunderstandings. And that is with us in the same house most days. I can only imagine how much worse that would be if we separated and didn't do real work to build up better lines of communication. So to that list, I might think to add:

 

- Be pro-active and patient in communication with your ex about the kids and any of the areas that impact their well-being.

 

Afterall, the kids don't want to be messengers. Parents need to maintain the former mutually supported parenting to the degree it's possible in separation. For me that last part ends up being one of the bigger concerns I have about divorcing and living separately. I'm really hoping that when we clear away the uncertainty about us, we will find it easier to communicate about the kids.

 

 

 

PS - Mr. Lucky, I like both the quote and source you use in your signature. But I also find it ironic that your quote is from one of the most famous roommate couples in history...

[Mr. Lucky]

But I also find it ironic that your quote is from one of the most famous roommate couples in history...

 

Perhaps then Eleanor is the poster child for taking responsibility for finding your own happiness?

 

Mr. Lucky

[Lanmat]

Hey

 

Im in a very similar situation, with 2 younger kids 13 year relationship.

 

I am in my mid 30 right now and i feel like something need to happen.

This relationship is not fulfilling.

 

I know i have not be present, involved and affectionate enough in my current relationship. However on some level i feel like i never wanted to be.

 

And now what im asking myself is "am i just a slacker and every other relationship would be the same"

Or is it the chemistry that not there.

 

She is a great person i know that but i feel we are incompatible on so many things.

 

 

We had a good discussion last week about this and we are mostly on the same page, it is starting to affect the kids.

 

She still want to work on our relationship but im really not sure thats what i want.

This has happened many time over the years and we always get back to square 1 with even more resentment.

Only difference in all those years its the first time im the one telling her i dont want that anymore.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Lanmat

[OwenW72]

I know i have not be present, involved and affectionate enough in my current relationship. However on some level i feel like i never wanted to be.

 

And now what im asking myself is "am i just a slacker and every other relationship would be the same"

Or is it the chemistry that not there.

 

She is a great person i know that but i feel we are incompatible on so many things.

 

 

We had a good discussion last week about this and we are mostly on the same page, it is starting to affect the kids.

 

She still want to work on our relationship but im really not sure thats what i want.

This has happened many time over the years and we always get back to square 1 with even more resentment.

Only difference in all those years its the first time im the one telling her i dont want that anymore.

 

 

First, you indeed sound similar in many respects. Most notably your tone is similar to mine in wanting assurance that it is OK to want to quit. What I'll say is that you owe it to your family to be honest about that, and also to do your best to do the constructive things that can address those feelings. I do think marriage counselling is essential, and I hope you can approach it without any self-sabotage. I went into "fixing things" as much wanting validation and justification for what I felt as I did being committed to making the marriage better. I hope you can do better.

 

And though that feeling might arguably be a sign that I wanted a divorce, it was also a strong signal that I was a huge part of the problem, if not "the problem". So my suggestion is to first take a breath. Unless you have already met someone else and started something that may be a one way track to the exit, you are best served to understand the "why" you feel that way. A few good books I wish I had read 4 years ago and not 4 months ago...

 

"Your Brain on Love" - Stan Taskin

Honestly a perfect and easy read that gives a good structure for understanding the interactions you have with your loved ones. It certainly helped me understand why so many things with my wife made me feel as they did, and why we fell into certain patterns. If we had read it much earlier it might have redirected us and helped to put it in a context for understanding. Instead I feel it is more likely to make my next relationship work far better.

 

"Mating in Captivity" - Esther Perel

Not everyone likes her message, but I found her insights pretty spot on and her honesty about sexual desire really good. She also has a podcast with good case studies, and another book on affairs called "State of Affairs" that is honestly more useful for looking at cases of how crisis can actually be the starting point for repair in a relationship. Might be hard to talk your wife into reading this with you given the subject matter, but it's a good read too.

 

"Love's Executioner" - Irvin Yalom

I liked this one because I prefer case studies in some ways, but also because the author does a great job of speaking both as a therapist and as layperson with his own judgments. It has some good tuff love and can be helpful if you decide to do therapy. Which brings me to....

 

After that breath and a couple good reads, go to therapy. Individual if you want to work just on you, but no matter what do couples counselling. Even if you eventually separate, it will make you better at being divorced parents. Even if you have decided that you will divorce, your kids will likely thank you for getting the counselling and taking the time to try and fix your marriage or at least understand what you and your wife are feeling.

 

Hope this helps.

OWENW72

Edited September 26, 2018 by OwenW72

[Lanmat]

Thank you for those insight

 

 

Ill try and read those book

Any sugestion i should start with?

 

 

 

 

I did meet some one about 2 month ago, we did hit it off but i cut things short and nothing happened and i did not have any contact with her since.

So its mostly like i talk to a hot girl at a party 2 month ago

 

 

But it did make me think about my current relationship

[OwenW72]

Any sugestion i should start with?

 

I did meet some one about 2 month ago, we did hit it off but i cut things short and nothing happened and i did not have any contact with her since.

So its mostly like i talk to a hot girl at a party 2 month ago

 

But it did make me think about my current relationship

 

I would suggest starting with the Taskin book.

 

And as far as meeting someone, I'll just say the emotional affair for me was both cause and effect of problems in the marriage. But all I can say is that if I had a better understand of my motives in doing it, I might have had a better conversation with my spouse about it.

 

And for a good insight into what you experience in an affair, even something that brief, the "State of Affairs" is a nice read.

 

Does your wife know?

[Lanmat]

Nothing happened i left before it did.

Was mostly thinking about the kids and not her.

 

 

I sometime wish i did

[notbroken]

My wife and I stayed together for the kids. We rarely to never argued in front of them. That said, it was still a very unhealthy environment. We didn't love one another and lived 'separate but together lives'. I regret it greatly. They didn't see what a healthy relationship looks like growing up and have both struggled in their own relationships. It was absolutely NOT good for them and I no longer believe in 'staying together for the kids'. That is often an excuse that comes out of fear, the status quo, perceived financial hostage situation, etc.

 

It is often said that two healthy homes are better than one bad one. I believe it - and have seen it first hand (my kids suffered through an unhealthy one, my girlfriend's kids had 2 healthy ones). If you do divorce, make sure you do it as friendly as possible, never badmouth one another, and be fair to each other and your kids. They will absolutely survive. You are NOT helping them by continuing to live around a bad marriage. They know. It is also teaching them very bad things about relationships.

[Trail Blazer]

I'm in the process of discovering this very question. In the short term I think it's worse for kids, but in the long term it's for the best. I think my kids will in time appreciate the new found happiness BOTH their parents have gained by separation and ultimately divorce.

[elaine567]

I'm in the process of discovering this very question. In the short term I think it's worse for kids, but in the long term it's for the best. I think my kids will in time appreciate the new found happiness BOTH their parents have gained by separation and ultimately divorce.

But why would they?

Kids are only kids for a short time.

Is it good that they had to endure a ****ty and unhappy childhood for years after a divorce, so at 30 they can say Mom and Dad are now happy...?

Whoopdidoo!

At 30+ I guess most kids hardly care if Mom and Dad are happy or not, they are more concerned with dealing with their own life.

[Lanmat]

Just talk to a friend of mine that did separate from mother of his 2 children a few years back.

He is telling me that he thinks that overall it has been for the best.

And that the relationship was making the worst of him come out.

He is now in what to me look like the kind of relationship id love to have.

 

Ive always been a easy going person that is quick to forgive, almost never have any conflict and never lose my temper.

But with gf it is not the case, im always on the defensive.

For example

If she seems unhappy about something, i always feel like its my fault.

 

If she ask me what i did today, im jumping to the conclusion that she want to nag or start a fight with me for not doing enough stuff around the house.

 

I should not be jumping to that conclusion, but past experience have condition me to that reaction.

 

An other thing that nagging at me right now is the fact that I am someone who has always exercise and always try to eat right but on the other end my gf has let herself go alot, no exercise and always eat crap ( seeing her eat brownies at 11pm makes me boil inside).

However I dont feel like this is the reason i want to leave but it does not help for sure.

 

Not sure what my next step with our relationship is but i wont be rushing any decision.

 

 

Damm i think i should start my own thread!!!

 

 

 

So...

 

What about you, any decision taken?

 

It seems to me that it has been a really long time coming for you.

 

My advise would be to pull the trigger and leave.

But I know exactly how hard it is, especially when its not really black and white. The reason for leaving sometime feel abstract, intangible and hard to grasp.

Not only you got to think about the effect on the kids but you also have to consider the effect that not seeing the kids every day might have on you( that would be the hardest thing for me)

[norudder]

Divorce sucks and then it gets better and then you consistently get the occasional reminders that it sucks all over again.

 

Yes it will hurt the kids and yes they will adapt. The way a tree grows around a piece of metal. Or the way the body heals from an amputation. That's what I can most relate it to. A limb is necrotic, you don't want to have to lose it and all that entails but to keep it is not healthy and spreading infection. If it can't be healed, what else is there to do.

 

My youngest told me yesterday that her dad's gf makes her feel like she's more of a mom because she is always around. She doesn't realize the reason for that is that neither her dad or gf have jobs, so her perspective while honest lacks context and doesn't reflect the reality of everything. Both my kids also say they feel like they have two families rather than one family in two houses. This is with my ex and I co-parenting very amicably compared to many.

 

I realize this won't be your exact situation in regards to work, etc but be prepared for the small hits like that. Be sure there is no way to heal first.

 

That said, I would do it again. It took me a while to learn, my path was twisted, but eventually it wasn't about "happy" or not being "in love", it was about healthy. Trust, respect, kindness, etc.

Edited September 27, 2018 by norudder