She still won't give up.

[QuietDan]

The short term relationship dynamics with a few new skill sets might be working for the moment. But, the fundamental nature of two people is fairly hardwired. In 5 or 10 years, many of the fundamental personality traits are likely to slowly return. The communication problems, styles, and differences, that contributed to relationship problems before, again will say, are likely to slowly redevelop.

[DKT3]

The short term relationship dynamics with a few new skill sets might be working for the moment. But, the fundamental nature of two people is fairly hardwired. In 5 or 10 years, many of the fundamental personality traits are likely to slowly return. The communication problems, styles, and differences, that contributed to relationship problems before, again will say, are likely to slowly redevelop.

 

I agree with this, but only to an extent. Listen, people dont change, we adapt and modify.

 

I dont think it's a given that the previous dynamics will return. I believe some people, once those behaviors are understood, can be more mindful of avoiding them or limiting them in the future.

 

My story is eerily similar to OP as many of you already know. Affairs rarely happen in a vacuum, there are contributing factors that are not always entirely on the WS. I think (as in my case) sometimes the BS can realize or understand that they weren't as desirable as a spouse as they thought, not to say it's an excuse for the affair, but you can foolishly believe it wasn't a factor.

 

OP, like me, avoided his ex. That inability to communicate is a sign that the anger and deep pain is still there, so by extension so is a deep love and connection. Any attempt by her was met with anger and venom. Her persistent along with his inability to truly connection with another woman left the door open.

 

OP, my advice having been right where you are now, is go slow. Yet, be mindful and appreciate her efforts. She is farther along then you so dont be pressed into a faster pace. Set aside two times per week were you discuss the past pain and relationship. The first one to ask questions and raise issues, the next to get answers and responses. Try to avoid talking about it outside of those assigned times. My wife and I have been doing this for several years now. it's very productive, Dont be afraid to be uncomfortable with conversations, uncomfortable conversations is what keeps relationships strong.

[Far]

I agree with this, but only to an extent. Listen, people dont change, we adapt and modify.

 

I dont think it's a given that the previous dynamics will return. I believe some people, once those behaviors are understood, can be more mindful of avoiding them or limiting them in the future.

 

My story is eerily similar to OP as many of you already know. Affairs rarely happen in a vacuum, there are contributing factors that are not always entirely on the WS. I think (as in my case) sometimes the BS can realize or understand that they weren't as desirable as a spouse as they thought, not to say it's an excuse for the affair, but you can foolishly believe it wasn't a factor.

 

OP, like me, avoided his ex. That inability to communicate is a sign that the anger and deep pain is still there, so by extension so is a deep love and connection. Any attempt by her was met with anger and venom. Her persistent along with his inability to truly connection with another woman left the door open.

 

OP, my advice having been right where you are now, is go slow. Yet, be mindful and appreciate her efforts. She is farther along then you so dont be pressed into a faster pace. Set aside two times per week were you discuss the past pain and relationship. The first one to ask questions and raise issues, the next to get answers and responses. Try to avoid talking about it outside of those assigned times. My wife and I have been doing this for several years now. it's very productive, Dont be afraid to be uncomfortable with conversations, uncomfortable conversations is what keeps relationships strong.

 

Thanks for your advice. I like your idea and I don't want to seem like a jerk to hee because I do appreciate what she doing. I am taking it very slow, but maybe engaging with her more an actually putting more in the effort might be beneficial to us both. I don't want her to be miserable. I don't want her to suffer. I'm not perfect and I don't expect the same from her.

[bathtub-row]

I think you have both changed. Not that you necessarily needed to change but this situation has decidedly changed you. Sexual abuse is a very serious thing and tough to work through. I’ve seen people who have experienced that and they’re typically a mess - get into drugs, very low self-esteem, etc.

 

It seems to me that she has genuinely turned a corner. I know it’s risky for your heart but, really, have you met anyone else you feel this way about? I’d give it a shot, if I were you. I think the things that tore the two of you apart have been dealt with, and enough time has gone by to make a clean start. I think she knows, without question, that if she even hints at cheating again, you’re gone. But most likely she has no interest in that. I think she has truly learned her lesson. Understand that things will be different because both of you are different. But that’s not necessarily a bad thing.

[BluesPower]

Thanks for your advice. I like your idea and I don't want to seem like a jerk to hee because I do appreciate what she doing. I am taking it very slow, but maybe engaging with her more an actually putting more in the effort might be beneficial to us both. I don't want her to be miserable. I don't want her to suffer. I'm not perfect and I don't expect the same from her.

 

Actually... Sorry, but she does need to suffer a little. Did you cheat? Did you go there when things were not great? I don't think so.

 

I am not saying that you need to be a jerk, but this relationship is and should be forever on your terms, bottom line.

 

The fact that you are even seeing her is a GIFT that you are giving her. You don't have to even talk to her if you did not want to.

 

It is up YOU if you want to continue. It is up to her to prove that she can be a safe partner, lets not even talk about marriage at all...

[usa1ah]

Remember me? Of course you do. I pop in once and a while just for the heck of it. Remember my story? It's definitely somewhere here. I'm the sorry sod that actually made it out of infidelity. I D'd my WW and it was clean, clinical and with little hassle (who am I kidding???)

 

Well, last year I came on this site and told people my story. My ex wanted to get back together and had been relentlessly pursuing me ever since the D. I asked people if I should give it a shot. I was informed to 'Run Forest, run!' and never look back. Great advice, as it allowed me to cut her completely out of my life and 'play the field', so to speak. Got my mojo back. I actually had no idea how many woman were just available to 'have fun' and nothing else. It felt great for a time. And then I got bored of the whole friends with benefits gig.<SNIP>

 

Not stupid at all. You divorced your cheating wife. Now after everything you have done she is still pursuing you. You have been an ass but most betrayed men in your position would be.

 

Here is the kicker, she has finally figured out that she is in love with you. This is the real her you are seeing. Now that she has cleared the past trauma from her life, the real person is shining through.

 

Up to you with what you do. Take it slow and go from there. You have your answer that most that R never get, does the WP really love me. Yours does.

Edited September 9, 2018 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[pepperbird]

We have had quite a few talks and no I actually don't hold the A over her head. I do still feel effected by it but ever since the D the pain is more like a dull ache instead of crippling pain I felt before. SHE is the one who actually initiates a lot of conversations of her A. She says she wants me to process it so that I can get it out of my system and heal more effectively. Couples Counseling is out of the question...for now at least. I will consider it in due time though.

 

Like mentioned before, I don't know what I want and I'm still taking things slow to see if "this" is worth it. I don't ever plan to lead her on but I'm not jumping into this with blinders either.

 

You are right. If we do get serious again, then I want her A to be the furthest thing from my mind. She's doing a really good job of trying to make that happen.

 

 

Sometimes people who have been through a rotten experience and have learned from it are the people who can be trusted the most to not ever do it again. Do you get that vibe from your ex-wife?

[pepperbird]

Actually... Sorry, but she does need to suffer a little. Did you cheat? Did you go there when things were not great? I don't think so.

 

I am not saying that you need to be a jerk, but this relationship is and should be forever on your terms, bottom line.

 

The fact that you are even seeing her is a GIFT that you are giving her. You don't have to even talk to her if you did not want to.

 

It is up YOU if you want to continue. It is up to her to prove that she can be a safe partner, lets not even talk about marriage at all...

 

 

This is great advice for a short period of time. This being said, a relationship like this, where it is all bout one person, can't work in the long term. It has to be about meeting the needs of both parties.

[BluesPower]

This is great advice for a short period of time. This being said, a relationship like this, where it is all bout one person, can't work in the long term. It has to be about meeting the needs of both parties.

 

I don't completely disagree... but in this type of situation, OP calls the shots.

 

If she wants him back, she does the work and it may take a while for him to feel comfortable to invest in her again.

[Far]

Not stupid at all. You divorced your cheating wife. Now after everything you have done she is still pursuing you. You have been an ass but most betrayed men in your position would be.

 

Here is the kicker, she has finally figured out that she is in love with you. This is the real her you are seeing. Now that she has cleared the past trauma from her life, the real person is shining through.

 

Up to you with what you do. Take it slow and go from there. You have your answer that most that R never get, does the WP really love me. Yours does.

 

 

Thanks a lot. She has told me that she loves me more than ever (now) and well... It does sound believable given the hoops she has gone through to at least get me to give "us" another shot.

[Far]

Sometimes people who have been through a rotten experience and have learned from it are the people who can be trusted the most to not ever do it again. Do you get that vibe from your ex-wife?

 

Yeah, I do. I find her transformation weird but intriguing.

[Far]

This is great advice for a short period of time. This being said, a relationship like this, where it is all bout one person, can't work in the long term. It has to be about meeting the needs of both parties.

 

That's one thing I do not plan on doing forever. Sooner or later, I have to be all in or all out. I understand that. But for now, I'm more than happy to call the shots.

[Far]

I don't completely disagree... but in this type of situation, OP calls the shots.

 

If she wants him back, she does the work and it may take a while for him to feel comfortable to invest in her again.

 

She's doing the work and then some. With how consistent she has been, she might winner me over much quicker than I realise.

[Far]

If she has really changed and there is still love and a connection, then go for it. Just remember to protect yourself before, during and after. If she loves you enough to kiss your feet in a public place, then that is one h*ll of a display of love. I do wish you well.

 

Sorry I missed this. Thanks and I will take measures to protect myself.

[Far]

Good that you're clear-eyed about the impossibility of clearing the slate. It's all new from here on out. Not so good, that it's been barely less than a year since your previous encounter at some party during your update thread Nov-Dec. At that time, she was definitely not going through deep self-examination to face her own self-deception and humbly allow your absolute right to get on with your life. From what you wrote then, she sounded to me and others like she was still on her high horse of denial:

This post from wmacbride in that thread said it the best for me:

 

 

I decided wmacbride's post on your Nov. 2017 thread does a better job of saying what I wanted to say than I could have. But note well her main points:

- Her description of WS entitlement is a perfect profile with detailed examples.

- She then describes the behavior of her own husband, whose behavior was consistent with that of someone deeply remorseful, e.g., how much time he took in self-refection before trying to reconnect.

 

For example, WHEN did she deal with THIS?

This was a fundamental understanding on your part. Do you know now why it made you "pause"? Do you still feel she would say this?

 

There's a big problem that kind of undermines any course of action:

You're already sleeping together.

 

Personally I think that was a mistake until you'd satisfied yourself (that other self - the one that had had enough) that you can allow yourself to be vulnerable again.

 

 

This is very helpful. I've been reading it over and over

[merrmeade]

Also this: You say that she's doing the work, which I infer means she's convincing you that she's sincerely remorseful and willing to do whatever is necessary to convince you and win you back.

 

There's a LOT written about this on LS, and several have summed it up really well. You've said you know what this is, and I hope that's true for your sake. Though you haven't said a lot about it that's concrete, you've indicated that she's done this work and that her friends say she has:

She tried many times with letters, emails and messages, but once my lawyer put the NC sign up, she shut up pretty fast. The divorce was smooth and fair 50/50: No-Fault. She got to keep the old house (didn't care too much since, again, I'm very financially secure). Everything was done and dusted and we could both move on with our lives... or not.

...

My ex has never stopped pursuing me. ... she has been chasing me all year long. I speak to her sometimes, and she always puts it out there how much she wants us to be together. Not a marriage or reconciliation, just to try and see if anything is salvageable....

 

Everyone around me has told me and shown me what my ex has done to fix herself. It was overwhelming really, IC, timeline, letters of love, NC letter. She has exposed the affair to our mutual friends and took full blame even when others thought otherwise (gets me every time).

So she started this campaign to get you back right away with the "letters, emails and messages" even before the divorce and then "never stopped pursuing" you. She was caught and then without skipping a beat started her campaign to get you back and never stopped. Why? What does it mean? Is she claiming that the A and the AP "didn't mean anything" and you're just supposed to know that? And just WHEN did she have this life-altering change of heart?

 

Then maybe she did research on remorse and reconciliation and followed the list—"IC, timeline, letters of love, NC letter."

 

But then there was this:

"This again? I already told you that you're the only one."

... She ... said it was unfair.

Maybe that was 8 months ago but it was a major slip and said so much—like what's wrong with you? You know that she's done all the steps, so why are you still harping? Like you have no choice but to forgive her.

 

The thing is, Far, if she really gets it then she should have humility. That is the key. WSs with humility do NOT say, "This again?" or call your continued difficulty "unfair." They don't make demands. They don't have expectations or demands about when or how the BS might recover; they are just grateful for the 2nd chance. Their change is deep and personal.

[Jamess1]

There is an Africna idiom - "Never eat up your own vomit like a dog" - no matter how good the meal was, the vomit is never worth it...

 

You are plan B, the alpha she really wanted, pumped and dumped her, now she goes back to beta for security and desperation.....a woman always leaves one relationship for another, always, you were replaced before she even left you...

[sandylee1]

It sounds like she has done a great deal of self exploration since the divorce.

 

She could have put this behind her avand moved on to a new relationship. She's got her divorce settlement.

 

There are plenty other men she could be with...but she's laid herself out and is prepared to take what you give her.

 

She seems genuine to me at this point. It would be much easier to have let it be.

 

Her actions are that of a remorseful Ex spouse. People can change.

 

If we can accept that some criminals, drug addicts in society can reform (and they do).. then a cheater can also do it.

 

I know someone who was a drug addict. This turned him towards crime and he was jailed for it. He's served his time, he's reformed and has gone on to become a qualified counsellor specialising in addiction.

 

Even with full changes, you're not obliged to give her a second chance, but as for whether she's changed.. I certainly think so from what you've said.

[aliveagain]

Who says you have to marry? If you enjoy each other, if you both feel your better off having each other in your lives, so be it. Once you trust her again there is nothing that says you can't commit to each other and that doesn't mean you have to marry her. Figure it out together because real love is hard to find and even harder to keep, you both need to be equally committed or it never works. If you don't think the commitment is real, leave, don't waste anymore time. You'll know the difference, like I said, you paid dearly to learn the lesson.

[WilyWill]

aliveagain is right. NEVER marry her. You already tried that and she didn't cherish a marriage with you. If she really loves you she will abide this and understand your need to keep your asseta separate and to always have one foot out the door.

[pepperbird]

aliveagain is right. NEVER marry her. You already tried that and she didn't cherish a marriage with you. If she really loves you she will abide this and understand your need to keep your asseta separate and to always have one foot out the door.

 

 

I can totally understand this advice, and can;t say it's not accurate.

 

 

The problem is it's a terrible way to have a relationship. Why even bother if you are always ready to bolt?

[Colin Grant]

Should you decide to embrace a future relationship with her, establish early on that you will do so solely under a prenuptial agreement whereby she receives NOTHING should you have to dissolve once again.

 

I recommend this not to be cruel or vengeful but to remove any doubt in your mind of her intentions, which could be related to her future financial security. If she agrees to a prenuptial, waiving rights to your assets, this will validate and affirm her interest in you is solely related to you and not the life you can provide for her.

[Far]

There is an Africna idiom - "Never eat up your own vomit like a dog" - no matter how good the meal was, the vomit is never worth it...

 

You are plan B, the alpha she really wanted, pumped and dumped her, now she goes back to beta for security and desperation.....a woman always leaves one relationship for another, always, you were replaced before she even left you...

 

Would have agreed with this if I did not D my ex. Financially she makes almost as much as I do now. I would have very little impact on her life if she decides to stay away from me. It's pretty much her chasing me because apparently she loves me and she screwed up and is very, very "sorry". Security...well, maybe my hugs are secure?

 

Her reputation isn't damaged. She's very attractive that it wouldn't take a week before a bloke is begging to bang her. She has no reason to chase me or do IC. She has no reason to engage with me at all. She has absolutely no reason to keep begging for a second chance. In fact, I have tried again and again to chase her away, but nope...She's one of those people that can't take a no from someone she screwed over and wants to make up to

 

As for OM, he did not throw her under the bus. From what I gathered, he wanted a relationship. She did not. Her friends (weirdly) had been keeping tabs on her in case she broke NC which she placed herself. I never asked for any of this. I just D'd her and I thought that would be the end of that.

 

Beta... that's a funny one.

[Far]

Marriage is not on the table. I just can't even think about that.

[Far]

I can totally understand this advice, and can;t say it's not accurate.

 

 

The problem is it's a terrible way to have a relationship. Why even bother if you are always ready to bolt?

 

A fresh start without a massive financial hit would make this kind of approach easier. So many times I see people wishing that devorce wasn't so expensive due to marriage that they feel trapped in leaving after being treated like garbage... Oh and kids.