Struggling guys told to "date-within-your-league"

[Moves Like Jagger]

Whenever I hear someone telling a struggling guy to date in his league, I assume that the person giving the advice has no clue about involuntary celibacy. Guys who struggle with dating aren't failing because of their pickiness. Instead, they are struggling because of major problems like anxiety, social awkwardness, isolation, mentalillness, and cognitive impairments.

 

A lot of incel guys lackbasic life skills. They can’t live on their own because their parents never taught them simple life skills and these guys are unable to motivate themselvesto get out their comfort zone. Some of these guys are lazy. Others of them are struggling with cognitive impairments like Autism. These guys need to see a therapist or life coach. I don’t think that these guys are going to solve anything dating a woman who has some extra pounds.

 

It’s so obvious why these guys are incel. They stand out in a bad way by dressing up like a little kid. Or they are so quiet and stifled that they can’t do something simple like showing more than one emotion or expressing an opinion.

 

I could care less about what scientific study you guys cite. These guys are behind in the dating game because they fail to do minimum things like smiling or following simple directions.They need professional help.

By the way, I do see incel guys wasting their time hitting on the hottest women in the room. Their pickiness is only a symptom of the fact that they lack basic awareness about what women are attracted to.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Moves Like Jagger

[CptInsano]

Yes, if you are struggling dating, man or woman, if you lower your standards your struggles will pretty much cease. I can guarantee it. Dudes, if you can't get a girl to dig you, it's because she doesn't wanna bang you, end of story. Those less attractive girls you don't notice as easily, they might be a bit more willing.

 

Dating down has never worked for me, probably because it becomes obvious very easily. What always worked for me instead is expanding number or types of women you are considering. (She may not be interested, but her friend is just as cute.)

 

But ultimately a lot of factors come into play. I used to be a skinny, pimply, stuttering science nerd in my early 20s, studying something that had a 30 to 1 male to female ratio. I had no trouble finding women, and that has to do with being willing to do whatever needs to be done, regardless of the associated risk. (A skill that helps me in my professional life to this very day.)

[No_Go]

Dating down just never (almost never) works for one simple reason the inferior partner faces daily her/his worst fear: seeing he/she cannot measure up to the standard set by the superior partner.

 

The result: the inferior partner either cheats on the superior one (in attempt to show them he/she has power to negatively affect them) or try to sabotage them in some other way (eg playing up their weaknesses).

[Cookiesandough]

this whole thing makes me want to participate in relationships even less!!!

Edited November 8, 2017 by Cookiesandough

[William]

Head's up on a wider issue brought to our attention which could impact this and similar threads...

 

https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/08/reddit-bans-misogynist-community-in-anti-violence-crackdown/

 

We'll be watching threads like this one more closely for gender warring, misogynist/misandrist postings, etc. The directive is to address the topic and refrain from hyperbole, name-calling, baiting, etc.

 

Thanks!

[basil67]

I couldn't agree more with those who are discussing social skills as being the problem rather than leagues. Often, the guys who can't get a girl are ones who also have few friends. They often have a history of not being able to talk with women. They don't like socialising in typical ways.

 

The one thing I would say about leagues is to suggest a 'social league'. If a guy struggles with the usual social connections, he's more likely to succeed with a woman who's similar.

[Shanex]

Yes, Basil. For instance, I don't have thousands so-called friends or followers on social medias and have only a dozen true and life long friends. I'm barely social and I wouldn't post on forums otherwise. Yet I am quite able of socializing during an event, and people will even tell my mutual friends "This guys come accross as a pretty good, knowledgeable fellow".

 

So I am more comfortable about dating someone like me. A bit geeky, possibly nerdy who doesn't wish or need to party every evening.

 

I also agree that regarding career, fairy tales aren't common. I have all the respect due to a simple firefighter or janitor, but they rarely land a relationship with a lawyer or doctor. Life is cruel like that.

[jay1983]

I couldn't agree more with those who are discussing social skills as being the problem rather than leagues. Often, the guys who can't get a girl are ones who also have few friends. They often have a history of not being able to talk with women. They don't like socialising in typical ways.

 

The one thing I would say about leagues is to suggest a 'social league'. If a guy struggles with the usual social connections, he's more likely to succeed with a woman who's similar.

 

Dating sites and night life tell another story. People aren't just making this up.

[Imajerk17]

So, most everyone here really believes in leagues eh

 

I mean, I am all for Self-Improvement as much as the next person. If you are a guy, then getting into better shape and dressing better probably would improve your dating prospects. A bit. Surely though, you know of at least one guy who hardly has anything going for him (including "looks") and yet the ladies still love him.

 

I agree w @basil7 the most. It's largely about confidence and swag. Maybe leagues as described here, clearly exist in Online Dating, where a woman will be a lot more likely to write you back if you are tall and photogenic and have an advanced degree and high income and have travelled a lot. But it's a completely different game face-to-face.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Imajerk17

[jay1983]

Imajerk I don't mean to knock your positive vibe, but if I take the camera and just record people at the mall, you can see most couples on par with one another. I mean if I spend a good hour just sitting and people watching, I may see one or two couples where a not so handsome guy has an attractive partner. I'm just being honest. I've seen the same thing in Louisiana as well as the Bay area in California.

 

Edit: even Sydney Australia. I have family in all those places, so I've spent a good amount of time out and about while there.

Edited November 8, 2017 by jay1983

[GoodOnPaper]

OP, where do you think "unattractive" guys are told to go for "less attractive" women, and why do you think guys are given this advice more than the opposite gender is? As I mentioned in my other posts on here, I am not seeing this.

 

I didn’t say I was making a gender comparison - I’m a man so I relate to the “struggling guy”. My angle is more about how someone could fall head over heels for someone that they consider to be in a “lower league” than people they were unsuccessfully trying to attract.

[elaine567]

It is also all about being "normal" and fitting in.

 

Most people do not really want to date people who look strange, act weird, have odd mannerisms, talk "funny", "are "awkward" or are not deemed socially acceptable to their particular group.

Few in reality want to stand out from the crowd and date people who do not fit in.

Most are looking for "normal" and average people, just like themselves.

Yes, some may be thought of as "hot" or not, and some are slightly better looking, better educated, have more money etc. than others but in the scheme of things most just fit into an "average" box.

Once someone is deemed "not average", then they tend to struggle more, as finding that "not average" person to pair up with is a lot more difficult.

[alphamale]

It is also all about being "normal" and fitting in.

 

Most people do not really want to date people who look strange, act weird, have odd mannerisms, talk "funny", "are "awkward" or are not deemed socially acceptable to their particular group.

Few in reality want to stand out from the crowd and date people who do not fit in.

Most are looking for "normal" and average people, just like themselves.

Yes, some may be thought of as "hot" or not, and some are slightly better looking, better educated, have more money etc. than others but in the scheme of things most just fit into an "average" box.

Once someone is deemed "not average", then they tend to struggle more, as finding that "not average" person to pair up with is a lot more difficult.

excellent analysis elaine567

[basil67]

I didn’t say I was making a gender comparison - I’m a man so I relate to the “struggling guy”. My angle is more about how someone could fall head over heels for someone that they consider to be in a “lower league” than people they were unsuccessfully trying to attract.

 

Very true. They may not fall for someone in a more appropriate social/appearance league. Sadly, this will leave them being single for the long haul.

 

I've seen guys who are clearly on the autism spectrum who are attracted to women who are socially very high functioning. I remember one guy who was living in supported accommodation but wanted a girlfriend who was much higher functioning. My heart breaks for them.

[basil67]

Dating sites and night life tell another story. People aren't just making this up.

 

Are you suggesting that poor social skills aren't a significant issue for some of these guys? I mean, if you can't have a friendly conversation with female classmates while in senior high, it's gotta put you way behind others when in college.

 

Doesn't matter how hot you are if you can't hold a conversation.

[RecentChange]

I TOTALLY agree with the social skills thing. It's been my mantra anytime a guy asks "why can't I find a girlfriend?!"

 

I often ask how good are they at fostering friendships - the answer more often than not is that they struggle with all social interactions, not just for women.

 

And I think leagues are a thing, it's an accumulation of assets.

 

Social skills

Physical attractiveness

Life success - accomplishments education etc

Wealth - career etc

 

It's going to be a rare couple where one ranks high in all these categories and the other ranks low. Some can balance out the others, but let's say each had a high possible value of 25.... You aren't going to see an 80 hitched up with a 35.

 

I smile when I think about how when I met my husband I thought he was "out of my league". Here was this hot, successful athlete who was gregarious and made tons of friends everywhere he went.

 

Soon he confessed that he thought I was out of his league with my looks, education, social circle etc.

[road]

So, most everyone here really believes in leagues eh

 

I mean, I am all for Self-Improvement as much as the next person. If you are a guy, then getting into better shape and dressing better probably would improve your dating prospects. A bit. Surely though, you know of at least one guy who hardly has anything going for him (including "looks") and yet the ladies still love him.

 

I agree w @basil7 the most. It's largely about confidence and swag. Maybe leagues as described here, clearly exist in Online Dating, where a woman will be a lot more likely to write you back if you are tall and photogenic and have an advanced degree and high income and have travelled a lot. But it's a completely different game face-to-face.

 

You seem and others seem to be hung up on and bothered by

the term "Leagues".

 

As Shakespeare said; a rose by any other name still will smell

like a rose.

 

Whether in the e-world or the real world it is the first impressions

that makes or breaks a love connection.

 

There is no difference between being good looking online

or in real life. Good looking is just what it means and it will get

initial results.

 

Some people by the way the dress shows that they have a high

paying career.

 

There are many visual clues that up's one's rating/league.

 

So before a man opens his mouth to use his social skills he will

have a better chance of finding a high rated women willing to

let him try his talking skills on her.

 

Again with the ugly man that got himself a woman that is a 10

does not mean a mismatch. Looks are only one way to measure compatibility. The man can be a 10 in everything else. The woman

other values are not nearly as high as her looks.

 

Why do all the men want to date the cheerleader, model, movie star?

 

Every man wants an attractive women.

 

Why do most men not marry the cheerleader, model, actress?

 

There is not enough of these women to meet the demand.

 

Do most men settle?

 

No, just that they faced reality that they can not get the cheerleader,

model, actress. So they went out for a woman that they find

attractive to meet their needs for a mate.

[jay1983]

Are you suggesting that poor social skills aren't a significant issue for some of these guys? I mean, if you can't have a friendly conversation with female classmates while in senior high, it's gotta put you way behind others when in college.

 

Doesn't matter how hot you are if you can't hold a conversation.

 

I guess I just don't meet too many who can't have a friendly covo with others. I haven't met, but a handful of people who really suck that much. I've met nerdy nervous types, who I can still talk to even though we have squat in common. Like the kid next to me in my civil design class. He has a terrible haircut and his sense of fashion reminds me if the clothes my parents had me wear when we immigrated here back in the early 90's. He still chats with everybody, really nice kid, doesn't mean the girls wanna date him

Edited November 9, 2017 by jay1983
I hate this tablet

[Imajerk17]

I have a buddy that literally just eyes women from across the bar and they come and talk to him. Works every time he goes out. When he does talk, he treats women rather poorly. Still gets laid like crazy.

 

Doesn't matter how good a conversationalist you are. If you aren't hot, women don't want to bang you.

 

The guy still might not be classically good-looking though, he just may have that swag. Daniel Craig as James Bond as an example. I'm not sure DC has amazing facial features, but his confidence is what makes him so handsome that women hardly notice.

 

Meanwhile these women came over to your friend having no idea his income level or where/if he graduated college.

 

I agree that "conversational skills" per se are definitely not everything. You don't have to be Larry King to get laid. But this is not at all the same thing as saying that a great-looking guy can just sit there tongue-tied and socially awkward and his looks will carry him through anyway. Some guys are just so at ease with themselves in interactions, that others are the ones who are putting in the extra effort using *their* conversational skills to impress/make a connection w him.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Imajerk17

[CptInsano]

Dating sites and night life tell another story. People aren't just making this up.

 

No, they are just a specifc mode of getting to know people, a filter so to speak, where the initial contact is strongly based on looks. One reason why I pretty much always did better, a lot better, in other ways of getting to know somebody, as I'm somewhat of a talker. It is also a further reduction to a specific event, the very start of getting to know somebody. (If you are into casual dating that may be all that matters.) If you deprioritize subsequent stages of getting to know somebody you will of course give looks a greater weight.

[road]

I have a buddy that literally just eyes women from across the bar and they come and talk to him. Works every time he goes out. When he does talk, he treats women rather poorly. Still gets laid like crazy.

 

Doesn't matter how good a conversationalist you are. If you aren't hot, women don't want to bang you.

 

The truth.

 

And a lot of men that as they approach a woman they always

get the body language with the look on their face, don't even try

to talk to me I am never going out with you let alone give you

the time to try to start a conversation for you to attempt to

impress me.

 

And, if the man see's this but tries anyway because he wants to

be optimistic one day he will get lucky. For all men aspire to reach

their highest level of greatness in all areas of life.

[road]

The guy still might not be classically good-looking though, he just may have that swag. Daniel Craig as James Bond as an example. I'm not sure DC has amazing facial features, but his confidence is what makes him so handsome that women hardly notice.

 

Meanwhile these women came over to your friend having no idea his income level or where/if he graduated college.

 

I agree that "conversational skills" per se are definitely not everything. You don't have to be Larry King to get laid. But this is not at all the same thing as saying that a great-looking guy can just sit there tongue-tied and socially awkward and his looks will carry him through anyway. Some guys are just so at ease with themselves in interactions, that others are the ones who are putting in the extra effort using *their* conversational skills to impress/make a connection w him.

 

When a good looking man has height, fit, prestigious career,

high income, good manners, honest, everything women want

and all he is lacking is that his is shy and poor at making small

talk you think he will not get a hot one?

 

Believe me there are a lot of women that are 9's and 10's that

would snap up men like this all day long.

[thefooloftheyear]

When a good looking man has height, fit, prestigious career,

high income, good manners, honest, everything women want

and all he is lacking is that his is shy and poor at making small

talk you think he will not get a hot one?

 

Believe me there are a lot of women that are 9's and 10's that

would snap up men like this all day long.

 

 

Agreed....

 

Social skills are way overrated(usually by women)....Truth is I think social skills only really benefit those with weaknesses in the other areas you mentioned....Plenty of guys are "lone wolves", shy, even outlaw types, whatever, yet never are without female attention...

 

 

TFY

[alphamale]

Agreed....

 

Social skills are way overrated(usually by women)....Truth is I think social skills only really benefit those with weaknesses in the other areas you mentioned....Plenty of guys are "lone wolves", shy, even outlaw types, whatever, yet never are without female attention...

 

 

TFY

 

there are lots of highly educated men (doctors, lawyers) who have zero social skills but plenty of pussy

[thefooloftheyear]

there are lots of highly educated men (doctors, lawyers) who have zero social skills but plenty of pussy

 

Right.....and there are convicts sitting in jail, serving long sentences, that have women coming to see them, putting their houses up for bail money, crying and writing letters to parole boards, etc...

 

The way some people talk, it's as if you have to be Tony Robbins or something to get within 100 yds of a typical woman..

 

TFY