Appeal of Serious Relationships?

[Els]

I really can't empathize with people who feel bad they aren't in a relationship. In fact, when I think about my friends who are coupled I feel kind of bad for them, especially if it's really long-term. The only appeal I can see is you want kids raised in nuclear family, you are a dependantish person, you are very sensitive to cultural pressure. Am I missing something?

 

Some people are genuinely not suited for long term relationships (in which case I agree they shouldn't be in one), but in your case it just sounds like you haven't been in a good LTR and your views are based on that.

 

In a good LTR with the right person, IME, the good strongly outweighs the minor negatives.

 

Yes but with school, work, even a child(as wrong as it sounds) there's something people gain from it. With a child, you have something that is part of you or something to nuture. Is that why people get serious relationships? To have something to love and take care of?

The answer is a lot less pragmatic and a lot simpler than you think it is - you just want to be with that person. Because you fell in love with them at some point and you keep falling in love with them over and over, for years or decades.

 

I have never been one to be in a relationship just for the sake of it, but I think that with the right person it's beautiful. With the wrong person... yeah, far better to be single or date casually.

[Cookiesandough]

Ty. What makes a person not suited for an LTR? Would a person who requires lots of space to be happy be one of these people or do they just need the right person? But then you run into the problem of them needing space when you need them and vice versa.

 

 

Steve51 said that they "always want to be around each other". I can relate to that feeling and it's a bittersweet one. As much as I liked that feeling of always wanting to be with someone, I liked not feeling that way and the freedom it gave me more. I missed not feeling that way, if that makes sense.

 

 

Maybe I just haven't found the right person. OrNo go could be right. It could be a phase.

Edited October 8, 2017 by Cookiesandough

[Els]

Ty. What makes a person not suited for an LTR? Would a person who requires lots of space to be happy be one of these people or do they just need the right person?

 

I think this this is something that you can only know with a lot of time, and trial and error. But until you know, the simplest thing you can do is to just not get into a relationship with that person if you're not feeling like you really want to be in it. That is generally a good idea regardless of which side of the line you fall on re: LTRs.

[Sweetfish]

All I hear are individuals with a over-inflated self ego not happy that they cannot find an equal. So they stay in an over-inflated state mind and body (aka not lowing my standards: aka can't find a good man) what ever those are.

 

Most women do not need a man in a LTR relationship because your phone can exploit what men can provide and men can do this as well. The only thing these phones cannot do is provide a baby and.. well marriage. Women now starting to marry them selves now or practicing "sologamy".

 

https://www.vogue.com/article/women-marrying-themselves-sologamy

 

 

So basically we do not value each other because we can outsource male and female roles via an APP or social media.

 

When we married we saw a failed system. One that failed 50% of the time. I do not care what anyone says, you cannot defend marriage as society defines it. It would be like defending an airline whose planes crash half of the time. What can you say other than that if you are on a plane that does not crash, it is a good experience? All others not so much.

 

 

Ok, first. Failed marriages are higher than 50%. Second, do you fly an airline with a 50% crash failure rate. No. Yes, the system is damaged and unlike the airlines they resolved the crash failure rate. So you have an alternative relationship that works. Congrats... you are able to keep your wife because she can have sex with multiple men. This is know as Beta Buxs and this may workout for you...but your an outlier. How many men can maintain such a relationship? I would guest few and if your pulling over 6 figures or you look like Cristian Grey this may work..but for the average guy they cannot even pull a woman online let alone have a mono relationship.

[CptInsano]

[...]

Ok, first. Failed marriages are higher than 50%. Second, do you fly an airline with a 50% crash failure rate. [...]

 

The idea behind that logic is questionable to begin with, as many things that are finite are worth enjoying. (Life itself falls into that category.) I've never regretted a relationship, not a single one. And I'm quite sure my ex-gfs would agree, even though I've only asked one of them explicitly.

[Sweetfish]

The idea behind that logic is questionable to begin with, as many things that are finite are worth enjoying. (Life itself falls into that category.) I've never regretted a relationship, not a single one. And I'm quite sure my ex-gfs would agree, even though I've only asked one of them explicitly.

 

Regret or no regret is not an issue... failed relationship is not an issue. Life time alimony is an issue and having your children taken away from you is an issue. No fault divorce is a big issue.. when many men who are in the military come back with divorce papers at an alarming rate and left broke or commit suicide there is an issue. People who get into a marriage and not know the laws is an issue..

 

So im looking for the fault in the logic.. the divorce rate is much higher than 50%.. please let me know in life where we sign contracts with a +50% failure rate. Like the OP said.. why get into a marriage when women are openly hooking up with men for a night cap.

 

No one walks out the door with 50% chance of dying or going to jail that is not even close to reality. What about a 50% chance of losing custody of your kids? Oops I lied..if you're raised by a single parent than that reality is even closer...

Edited October 9, 2017 by Sweetfish

[Cookiesandough]

Since this has become a MGTOW rant...I'll add my tree fiddy. I'm sure marriage is an institution that works for both men and women depending on the type of people they are(I don't understand it, but I suppose it depends on the person). Statistics I have read show marriage greatly favors men economically and health-wise(not sure if this is true, just stats I've seen). If marriage were really so horrible why do 75% of people remarry within 10 years?

 

I disagree that Steve51 is "beta bux". He's in an open marriage, so he is sleeping with other women too. I recall him saying his wife brings him home women. That's alpha fux

 

Anyways, there have been women(and men) who have remained single for as long as we've been able to be. More recently we were called 'old maids' and 'spinsters', so it's got nowt to do with an app. If the app wasn't there you could just go out to the tavern and find company or perhaps stay in and hang out by ourselves. It's just the way single people want to do. And it works for us.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Cookiesandough

[Els]

Most women do not need a man in a LTR relationship because your phone can exploit what men can provide and men can do this as well.

 

If you are approaching LTRs with the "what can this person provide me?" mindset, you have doomed yourself to failure before you have even begun.

[lovephule]

Hi. Sorry for the threads. I realize my perception of how relationships often go are not how they all are...Love is a many spendor thing, indeed. But this is just something I've noticed about LTR myself.

[snip]

 

Am I missing something?

 

*hits blunt*

 

Love and marriage go together like... cookies and cream. (Or cookies an dough? Hmm... stay with me here )

 

Perfection is a process. If you're headed towards a more perfect union, if you're serious about getting together, about hooking up, consider this: You gotta give up the cookies to get the cream, and you gotta give up some cream if you want some cookies. "Pssssh!" you tell me. "I'm Cookiesandcream. I ain't gotta do all that, I have everything I need, I'm fine on my own." Exactly. EXACTLY. Oh, did I say Cookiesandcream? I mean Cookiesandough. You're not missing a thing.

 

They took their relationship to the next level. She wanted a pearl necklace, and he gave her a pearl necklace. He's all about her wants. So unfair, right?

 

Sometimes men complain about not wanting a grown woman as a dependent, you know, a MOOCH. Understandable. What kind of man wants a woman hanging off him and sucking him dry? I mean really.

 

I could go on and on and on...

[Cookiesandough]

: You gotta give up the cookies to get the cream, and you gotta give up some cream if you want some cookies

 

I dig I dig

[PegNosePete]

Statistics I have read show marriage greatly favors men economically and health-wise(not sure if this is true, just stats I've seen).

Not sure how marriage could economically favour any individual, since finances become joint when you're married. There are certain advantages to being married for example in the UK a non-working person can share their tax-free allowance to a spouse, but not an with unmarried partner. That would benefit men's income more than women because on average there are more non-working women than men. But these titbits really don't add up to much.

 

Divorce however, greatly favours the financially weaker party, which is usually the woman, because on average women work less hours and get paid less.

[Cookiesandough]

Not sure how marriage could economically favour any individual, since finances become joint when you're married. There are certain advantages to being married for example in the UK a non-working person can share their tax-free allowance to a spouse, but not an with unmarried partner. That would benefit men's income more than women because on average there are more non-working women than men. But these titbits really don't add up to much.

 

Divorce however, greatly favours the financially weaker party, which is usually the woman, because on average women work less hours and get paid less.

 

 

This article explains it much better than I can https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043605/ =P

Reasons include, but not limited to, employer discrimination and better work ethic due to wanting to provide

 

 

What I think also is that marriage or even LTR (at least the traditional model)people share many of the household duties. If she cooks meals, for example, that is more time for him to focus on other things that a bachelor would not have

Edited October 9, 2017 by Cookiesandough

[CptInsano]

Regret or no regret is not an issue... failed relationship is not an issue. Life time alimony is an issue and having your children taken away from you is an issue. No fault divorce is a big issue.. when many men who are in the military come back with divorce papers at an alarming rate and left broke or commit suicide there is an issue. People who get into a marriage and not know the laws is an issue..

 

No relationship is a cage. If you think you can enforce it through a contract then you are quite mistaken. There is also no right to an LTR, and children are yet another question. In other words, people who are getting into marriage and parenthood being profoundly unfit to do so is an issue.

[Sweetfish]

If you are approaching LTRs with the "what can this person provide me?" mindset, you have doomed yourself to failure before you have even begun.

 

Your implying that I assume this is how relationships work.. therefore your projecting that I have a problem obtaining LTRs. There is a difference between how things are and how things should be. There is also a difference between your generation and this generation.

 

So unless your factoring in that this generation is completely different from the older generation than your just assuming how things are. I am very aware of the shifty hypocritical talk here on LS.

 

BTW.. you talk about how relationships work and yet you and many other posters here talk about how relationships are conditional and never non-conditional in other threads. So which one is it?

 

If many people view relationships as conditional its based on what they bring to the table. That would mean you are getting into a relationship based on what the person can provide. Can he provide support, is he college educated, is he this tall, does he fit my political or religious background. This is absolutely why many women are on love shack saying they cannot find a man...because the things they want they cannot find and it getting harder as you age as with maturity you will likely place more requirements on the opposite gender.

 

Its humorous that when men posters post that they can't find women its always him. Its followed by how he should learn AB and C and when its a female poster its always men and a list of reason why its men. That is always and usually the narrative. Right?

 

In regards to the 'MGTOW" statement.. I am not affiliated with any group as such. Facts are facts. Numbers are numbers. To say the marriage favors men is absolutely the most laughable comment I've ever read. in NO way does it favor men. legally, the laws favor women and even more laws are being placed to favor women.

 

 

https://nationalparentsorganization.org/blog/22457-studies-show-judicial-bias-against-dads

[Sweetfish]

No relationship is a cage. If you think you can enforce it through a contract then you are quite mistaken. There is also no right to an LTR, and children are yet another question. In other words, people who are getting into marriage and parenthood being profoundly unfit to do so is an issue.

 

 

I never conveyed relationships as a cage.

Never said anything about a right to a LTR

 

What I said was marriage is a legal binding contract that many people do not understand the legalities of.

[Cookiesandough]

Marriage does appear to benefit many men (maybe many women too, but I have only seen a lot of empirical data about men) or at least some correlation. No one said anything about divorce or child custody laws favoring men. I just think saying marriage is foolish for everyone is wrong, although I guess I agree that I don't get it. It seems like the cons would outweigh the pros for me, but some don't see it that way. Just like other romantic relationships. It's all about the individual(s).

 

Sorry for the assumption, but 'beta bux' is lingo straight from the mgtow handbook.

 

 

If you are approaching LTRs with the "what can this person provide me?" mindset, you have doomed yourself to failure before you have even begun.

 

I might misunderstand you, but even if it's just to learn about someone or take care of someone, shouldn't we see some benefit from it? This might be where there is some disconnect for me, because I am expecting my life to be enriched or get something out of it.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Cookiesandough

[littleblackheart]

I don't think marriage or divorce favour anyone in general; marriage favours both parties equally when the marriage is a success, or neither when it comes to a divorce; I don't know anyone who has survived a divorce genuinely totally unscathed or unaffected, emotionally or financially or mentally.

 

Women with low wages or SAHMs do not benefit from a divorce financially at all; in fact, they are generally worse off post-divorce, even when they are the ones who instigate the procedure. I'm lucky in that I've always been self-sufficient financially so it could have been worse after I left my exH, but the idea that working women who bare the brunt of childcare benefit financially from a divorce is risible (although they may benefit in other ways like peace of mind and less stress).

 

I've tried single and not single and prefer single by a mile. I like the independence it brings me, and as my exH is barely involved in our kids' upbringing, I don't have the stress to deal with his deficiencies on a daily basis.

 

I love being single, I think it makes me a better mother and a better, stress-free and more easy-going person. I find relationships to be a strain, and that's not because I have tainted view of marriage, that I still respect as an institution, or relationships; even the 'happy' couples I know don't make me feel like I'm 'missing out'.

 

I have totally embraced my single status and protect it fiercely. I don't feel 'deficient' in any other ways and I don't care what others may or may not think.

[Sweetfish]

Marriage does appear to benefit many men (maybe many women too, but I have only seen a lot of empirical data about men) or at least some correlation. No one said anything about divorce or child custody laws favoring men. I just think saying marriage is foolish for everyone is wrong, although I guess I agree that I don't get it. It seems like the cons would outweigh the pros for me, but some don't see it that way. Just like other romantic relationships. It's all about the individual(s).

 

Sorry for the assumption, but 'beta bux' is lingo straight from the mgtow handbook.

 

 

 

 

I might misunderstand you, but even if it's just to learn about someone or take care of someone, shouldn't we see some benefit from it? This might be where there is some disconnect for me, because I am expecting my life to be enriched or get something out of it.

 

 

Please qoute where I said marriage was foolish.. also arent you the one who said what was the benefit of a woman getting married?

 

How do men benefit from marriage? What is it that say men get an advantage?

[newmoon]

Not sure how marriage could economically favour any individual, since finances become joint when you're married. There are certain advantages to being married for example in the UK a non-working person can share their tax-free allowance to a spouse, but not an with unmarried partner. That would benefit men's income more than women because on average there are more non-working women than men. But these titbits really don't add up to much.

 

Divorce however, greatly favours the financially weaker party, which is usually the woman, because on average women work less hours and get paid less.

if you look at studies that have been done and just reason out what you typically see in traditional m/f couples it's men who often benefit financially from marriage. take 2 college grads who marry and then the woman gets pregnant soon after. she stays home to care for the baby for a few years while his career continues on and he advances and promotes and continues getting pay increases year to year. the support from a wife often gives men the chance to continue working towards professional goals while the woman has to stop her career for a bit, or take a p/t job instead of a f/t one, or give up working altogether. by the time she re-enters the workforce (or divorces him) her skill set is way out of date and she can't support herself like the working partner could b/c she can't command a high salary. divorce pretty much has to favor the financially weaker partner b/c they have likely dedicated years of service to the working partner/family and given up earnings to do so.

[Cookiesandough]

Please qoute where I said marriage was foolish.. also arent you the one who said what was the benefit of a woman getting married?

 

How do men benefit from marriage? What is it that say men get an advantage?

 

Well you likened it to skydiving with a parachute that malfunctions 1/2 the time (Remember a huge chunk of failed marriages are people who marry before 25 or only knew each other a few months), so I didn't think it was an unfair conclusion to draw?

 

 

I posted a link to an article from a journal which investigates the correlation between a man's marital status and his success

 

but here's another

https://faculty.wharton.upenn.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/28_Are_All_the_Good_Men_Married.pdf

and another

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1353/dem.2007.0021

 

 

This shows pretty weighty correlation between marriage and health and longevity

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/04facts/marriedadults.htm

 

Particularly for men

Marital Status and Mortality among Middle Age and Elderly Men and Women in Urban Shanghai

 

 

Look, I dunno, man. I only google.

 

There are pros and cons to everything, I'm sure. Even with all that, I don't think marriage is *for me*. I hear what people are saying, and it sounds great for them, but I don't really see it for myself. I have plenty of love in my life, highly value the freedom that comes with being single, and don't see a LTR benefiting me at present.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Cookiesandough
wrong link

[Chilli]

well , the other thing about such young marriages too is often they've been together since school so no other life experiences.

20yrs later mlc kicks in and suddenly usually she turns into a 16yr old again and wants to party and screw around and blow up the family. and it's all his fault because she wanted to have kids so bad but lost her youth raising the family that she must have,

 

or even if they did live a bit before they met, 25ish is still really young to get married these days, not many people have what that takes for a lifetime starting at that age anymore.

 

but as far as a relationship or marriage in general goes l still think there's no rocket science needed . like a few of us have said when you fall in love with someone you just want that.

 

mind you though, the stats these days and that airplane 5o% chance of making it likeness, is a pretty damn sobering thought though especially if it's a second marriage and considering if your a guy you were probably cleaned out and like someone said , lost your house,life with your kids, paying off the ex forever in a day.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Chilli

[Chilli]

Damn. Now l've depressed myself.

[Sweetfish]

if you look at studies that have been done and just reason out what you typically see in traditional m/f couples it's men who often benefit financially from marriage. take 2 college grads who marry and then the woman gets pregnant soon after. she stays home to care for the baby for a few years while his career continues on and he advances and promotes and continues getting pay increases year to year. the support from a wife often gives men the chance to continue working towards professional goals while the woman has to stop her career for a bit, or take a p/t job instead of a f/t one, or give up working altogether. by the time she re-enters the workforce (or divorces him) her skill set is way out of date and she can't support herself like the working partner could b/c she can't command a high salary. divorce pretty much has to favor the financially weaker partner b/c they have likely dedicated years of service to the working partner/family and given up earnings to do so.

 

 

Thats a big negative...

 

Men as a whole contribute to 75% of earnings because typically on average women do not work as much as men nor do they often have a desire to produce a larger income. Men often work more dangerous jobs and jobs where they put their life on the line. 97% of job deaths are male. Males usually die first within a marriage. Women are 75% of the individuals who push divorce and since no fault marriage it has risen and because of the welfare state is has risen. This can be seen in the black community which has the highest divorce rate and next is the white community.. both are the largest consumers of government supplement and ironically the highest divorce rates. Taxing singles more is not some fluke.. it is done to push marriage.. it was considered a bachelor tax as single men were shamed for being single and being married pushed couples to buy houses and cars...which in turn helps the economy.

 

 

Please... don't sit their and openly say men have to approach you for dates and say you shouldnt have to put effort on your OLD profile and say men have the advantage. I watch and seen program after program that benefit women. Right now it is great to be a woman. If you want to be in STEM they will literally pay you.

 

Men are often more aggressive and competitive than female and that is why they advance in a career... The average US citizen is below the proverty line and this illusion that the average american has a degree and working white collar jobs is a joke. Most Americans dont even have a saving account with 5 digits in the bank . Women are 75% of the purchasing power in the U.S. which in return means Debt. So if 25% of the earning is female in the USA... how is it possible that men have a advantage... when collectively they are buying more than they out put?

 

To assume that typically a man advances in his career while his wife is taking care of children is... ummm... highly unlikly. Unless she is a stay at home mom and decided on this direction. This would imply they are in the same field, career, position and job. This is not the norm nor average. So im confused where you're getting your resourses.. none that I have seen so far.

[Chilli]

There is one more huge factor in men working and often paid more and better positions, they earn it.

Men are in work from when they leave school until they retire.

Women are often shm atleast part the time and often have yrs out of the work force .

It's not their fault l'm not saying that it's about the kids and family , but never the less, you can't just work part time or take years or decades out and expect to be in the same place as someone that's been at it since they left school and have made a career out of it and will be until they're 65. So they also know he's in it for the very long haul and a full working week and won't be called out or working between school hours and on kid call or having babies call any time and the rest of it and he's gotta be worth more and know the job a lot better than a part time mum.

Gotta say again , it's not women's fault but how else could it be without favoritism just bc you got a V.

And don't forget , women that forgo family and build up careers just like men do , usually do very very well.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Chilli

[WaitingForBardot]

I'm going to answer this question the same way I answered the question in a post awhile back "What do you love about your spouse/partner": While I could rattle a few things off the top of my head, in reality I have no clue, I just do.

 

I like being in relationships and have been in one for the most part continuously since I was in the 7th or 8th grade; now married for over 30 years. I don't need one, I'm actually a solitary person by nature, whether single or attached. I've always kept myself busy with things that interest me, so a partner isn't really a necessity.

 

But I do like having someone to be with, someone to sleep with, etc. Beyond that I really don't have an answer; I just find relationships appealing...