Can a narcissist change?

[sunshinesmiles]

We have gone to hell and back...both physical and emotional abuse. I still cry quite often. Emotionally I am lonely...my husband is like a third child. I have two kids of my own & I miss having an adult really care about me. I'm 35 and feel like I'm in a mess. My husband lacks compassion & feelings. I think my husband also has depression...he sleeps a lot during the day & stays up late almost every night. I miss going to sleep together...our relationship is exhausting...are schedules conflict...we are drifting apart....but he says he's happy! Can anyone else relate to these issues?

[At Peace]

When I saw this thread I nearly doubled over from shock. I was with a narcissist and have been in emotional turmoil not completely realizing there was a term for his behavior. We were both acting students in NYC, he was from England and I was completely charmed by his funny wit. But that wit soon began to turn cryptic and judgmental. But always indirectly. He's judge everyone and was condescending, literally claiming he was a Person of Superior Intellect .He was not joking when he said this to me. I didn't take it serious in the beginning because in the early stages when he was sexy and charming I made up excuses and let it slide. But he was forever judging everyone, comparing their weight and looks, talent and financial status...people of lower income were of course peasants. I thought he's 26 that's just youthful arrogance he'll change (I'm older), but he didn't. To be with him I would swallow my true thoughts. Then he'd obsess about his weight and looks and I would try and boost his ego, only to be rewarded with his turning critical on me, and saying "I'm only trying to help you." His advise was never helpful but hurtful and when I pointed that out of course I was being "paranoid." It was so confusing I did doubt myself and bought into that maybe I am paranoid. He would explode and then apologize. Always the rational that I made him explode. But quickly he would be equally sweet again. Then there were the episode of him dropping hints that other females were paying attention to him...I think for sure he was attempting to make me feel jealous insecure. But when I addressed that...I was being Paranoid. Always he claimed he knew how people thought...ugggh. In the end my self-esteem had been trampled on. But now I know this guy was a classic Narcissist. I was involved with him for two years and am going through the process of getting over this relationship. Which has been nothing short of a scar on my soul. I don't understand why I didn't walk away in the beginning when I had a hint of his personality. Now I'm struggling to repair the damage I allowed him to infllict on me emotionally.

[whichwayisup]

That's horrible, and I feel for each of you who have had to deal with N's.

 

The thing that I don't get is HOW exactly do you know for sure? I mean, what if the guy is just an a**h*** and very selfish? I've read there are classic signs of N's and what to look for in them and their traits.

 

One question...Looking back and what you know now...Back then was their a "gut" feeling that something wasn't quite right? Some of you hoped over time and maturity would change them, but sometimes are there NOT signs and it's like BOOM all of a sudden they do a 180 and turn on you?

[At Peace]

For me, that gut feeling was when he made sarcastic comment and I woukd look at him with that gut feeling thinking it was a mean thing to say. He would say "What?!!..I'm joking!" But I ignored it because I didn't want to accept that he was really so unkind. How could I be attracted to someone who was unkind. So I accepted that the lie of him just joking. I have done some reading and now understand that sarcasm is really just manipulative and insensitive. Another gut feeling that something was off was when he wanted to fix my problems. Always pointing out a weakness. though on hindsight being sensitive was his version of being weak. And he'd smile and say "I'm only trying to help you." Again I didn't speak out against him, nor say I don't want your help if it doesn't make me feel good. Because he'd quickly turn on the charm part. I see now as a Narcissist his grandiose illusion of himself he never examined his human flaws...and always it was someone else who was, a classic phrase of his "whack-job" or "that person is a psycho-b***h." If he was referring to a former g/f. I thought..I deluded myself into thinking he couldn't think of me that way. So I would try to be more understanding and not contradict him. Just to appease him. I put him on a pedestal and naturally he eventually sought someone who was more gulliable and found him to be charming...and that's when he moved on. I didn't get it...I was building him up but he needed and wanted more adoration. The new person would see his sweet charming self from the beginning again. I guess its a sport for a narcissist to keep attracting and manipulating. And as long as there are those who close our eyes we provide fuel for them.

[JS17]

Ditto. I had the same experience as At Peace. He would also tell me how incredible his ex was and made me feel as though I could never live up to her....even though he cheated on her. I used to be a strong person but he tore me down with all of the name calling. I tried to break up when I couldn't take it any more but in the end he left me for someone else. I'm still struggling with it and I'm starting to wonder if I'll ever get over the pain.

 

There are no signs. They start off just like everyone else. It's near impossible to spot them.

[At Peace]

I'm gathering no one who is with a Narcissist recognizes that this is their personality type. In my case I built up in my mind a certain level of trust. He didn't start out completely arrogant and with put downs, but as I slowly was drawn to him, the stinging comments would come with a smile that confused me, so I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Who wants to believe that the guy they like is actually cruel inside. Its a complete mind game and from what I've read so far on this thread...It's impossible to determine before you get knee deep emotionally involved. And I suspect that's the turn on for the Narcissist. They need to be worshiped and in turn they must tear down the whover idolizes them in order to be the one "on top." If my scenario helps anyone avoid the pain of experiencing this I'm glad to open up and get this all out. I think the awful struggle is letting go of the good times I reinforced in my mind, because I still can't emotionally accept that it happened....that I was not strong enough to have walked away from him. Its going to take a long time to get this out of my system.

[lindya]

The guy I was with wasn't spiteful or malicious towards me. It was just a several years of nonsense that veered from sentimentalism to neglect then ended coldly, abruptly and with an absence of any compassion.

 

There can be some entertainment value to be had from these guys provided you don't ever take them seriously or expect anything meaningful from them. Pinnochio might wish he was a real boy, but really he'll always just be made of wood.

[At Peace]

After coming upon this thread and doing a search on the web and informing myself about the traits of a narcissists, I am coming to grips with the fact that my ex, was indeed a narcissist, and I was completely in denial and thinking all the time it was my fault for his outburst and could not understand his grandiose behavior. When he said insensitive things and convinced me he was just joking.. I thought maybe it was me being too sensitive and not getting his jokes. NOW I get it, I was in this warped relationship....that was destroying my self esteem. No one was around to really hear his comments, and he would switch to be sweet again. I feel angry at myself for not having been on guard and letting my core being become so wounded. I have recalled all the twisted attacks that he spewed and then blamed me for. And I would be more passive just to keep him calm. Does anyone ever recover from this?

[Mermaiden]

I've spent the last few days reading everything I could get my hands on about Narcissists.

And I've figured put that my ex is a textbook example.

Chilling how cold and devoid of humanity they are.

 

 

 

 

 

"A narcissist is the first carbon-based form of artificial intelligence." - Sam Vaknin

[smile95]

I have posted this before elsewhere, but I know that my ex has NPD. Here are some of the things I saw....are any familiar to you? I read the books and articles and I did not wnt to believe it! But, when the facts are there, you cannot deny it. It almost makes coping better. My self esteem is shot. On the floor. But, knowing it is not my/our fault, it may be easier.....

 

 

Signs I see......He never thinks of my feelings....always insecure...promises me trips and gifts and never follows thru.....obsessed with his job and $ and how people view him and his social status.....he takes part in diff community activites and appears to be such a great guy to people who really do not know him......he says we never have problems and will not discuss anything and just says"we are fine, i love you"....he goes periods of time ignoring me and makes me think I did something wrong. I am so heartbroken and no one understands how I love him. i do not either. I guess it was part of his charm...I do beleive he loves me(in his messed up way). I go back and forth with him and nothing changes.

 

The hard part is I love this man and he believes he loves me too. Part of NPD.

[betterwife]

Please concentrate on yourself right now. It seems like you still love him but don't even look back because you lost your own identity in that relationship. You also said you have low self-esteem. Please whatever you do, do something that you really enjoy and stick to it everyday. Please seek spiritual guidance or consuling. If you are close to family seek help from them. If not seek help at a church with the pastor. Hope things go well with you. Sorry to hear about that.

[smile95]

I know now that I need to stop reading about him and his problems...do you think that reading books on self esteem will help or actaully getting out and making small goals for myself will?

[At Peace]

I feel like a hard as I try I am besiged by these feelings of remorse and confusion...I keep asking myself why did I fall in love with someone so cruel and think despite repeated efforts that he would change. I lost so much of myself into him and he never appreciated it. I know I am dwelling on this but right now I feel lost.

I tried to explain to a friend of mine what happened and she said "you made that choice." That's the sort of condemnation that blames us, no one who hasn't experience being with this personality type as we do, sees it as our fault. In my friend's opinion, "just get over it." I said no more. If it were that easy, I would not be struggling everyday to find a reason to make sense of it all.

[smile95]

at peace-do any of the things I listed sound familiar to you? And for the record, no one understands how to get over them unless they have dealt with someone like this. I learned not to ask my friends....I know how you feel. It really is not our fault. Please know this. THey are great at manipulation and it happens over time. Have you read how they are charming in the beginning and everything seems great and then one day you wake up and slowly things have changed and you are left with nothing but your slef esteem and self worth on the ground. How did you guys break up? Did you do it?

[At Peace]

Beth5201,

Somethings sounded very familiar. He was completely charming at the start. I truly thought how fantastic to meet someone I bonded with. He was generous with his time and he seemed to listen to me. I guess after we were "together" intimately that's when the change happened, but slowly. He'd express feelings of grandiose literally saying he was a Person of Superior Intelligence. I sort of laughed but he meant it. Him being all of 26. He was obseessed with whereing Armani Exchange clothing. Truly obsessed. had to have the logo displayed. And obsessed with his weight. Sometimes checking his weight every ten minutes on his scale. (Really) We were acting classmates, and my experience at it had me an advanced level, yet he who was rather new and begiining always had a dig or slight put down to others who presented better scenework. Oh course he'd say this to me alone. All actresses were "psychos". All people who were democratic "liberals" People who were emotional were "peasants" Everyone was labeled in a category. He was from england so the list was endless as to the names he described to those with distained here. He would criticize me and say you have low self esteem but would offer to fix me. His comments came in between the high moments, but really they weren't high moments..were they?

I worked more as an actress and not once did he come to see any of my performances...always he was too busy (doing what..?) I asked him one time and he became indignant...or he'd say "oh I meant to come..sorry forgot." And yet I'd let it go, not wanting to have a fight. And then there were the outbursts. It would come like white lightning, out of the blue. He'd ignore me, no word of him for days, silent treatment and then I'd initiate through e-mail or call, and ask him are you alright or angry and then BAM! A barrage of attack, you're paranoid! you're this! you're that...I'm tired !I'm busy!! I was in shock and would immediately go to apologizing and smoothing it over. And blaming myself for triggering his rage. All the time underneathe I just wanted the nice guy I knew before back. After his rage I'd back off and by night time I'd get an e-mail saying it's alright. Hope I am not pissed. He's not pissed with me.

I clung to this image of how he was when I first met him. Its difficult for me to think, I chose to be with someone so angry and devoid of empathy.

[smile95]

He'd ignore me, no word of him for days, silent treatment and then I'd initiate through e-mail or call, and ask him are you alright or angry and then BAM! A barrage of attack, you're paranoid! you're this! you're that...I'm tired !I'm busy!! I was in shock and would immediately go to apologizing and smoothing it over. And blaming myself for triggering his rage. All the time underneathe I just wanted the nice guy I knew before back. After his rage I'd back off and by night time I'd get an e-mail saying it's alright. Hope I am not pissed. He's not pissed with me.

 

I could have written this! I just wnt the man I met back too, but I think we both know they were never who they really are. We are seeing the real men now. It is sad for me. He would go days w/out talking or weeks and then call one day and act like nothing happened and stupid me was just happy he called? I guess that was his plan to let me cool off. I know that the way he treats me is not right. I see it. But, my heart is in love with the man I met.

[At Peace]

Beth5201,

I suppose we have been traumatized emotionally. Internally. We are walking around with this knowledge of what we've experienced and trying to at the same time cope in the real world. I read somewhere that narcissist need people like us to exist. They need to be worshipped...we provided that. I know we deserve better. We don't love these creatures we love a fantasy we have in my hearts about them. We have the capacity to love so much that its to our downfall. Isn't that a nice thing to know about yourself. We have an abundance of love, we just need to rein it in for our protection. And be more careful. The truth is they will never give us the love and respect we want in the way we would like it and should have it. Its painful to let go of the image of that other version we fell in love with...but we have to. Maybe we will have to cry a billion times but I have to believe that one day it'll be better again.

[smile95]

at peace....that made me feel better. Thanks. It is tough to let go of the image. And I look back and see how much I fed his ego. I built him up and he knew it. They feed off that. I am afraid once he sees I am gone for real, he will miss the attention and try to get his fix again from me to make him feel powerful. I am afraid since when he calls, he puts on the charm and I get glimpes of the old him. I know enough now to NOT fall for this act again. He is very selfish and I know that I want more. I want to be appreciated as much as appreicate my man. I would never have that with him. Once we meet the right ones, this pain will make sense and be worth it. I always think I will look back and be so glad I left since if I had not, I would never have met the man of my dreams_________.(whatever his name will be)

[Mermaiden]

are any familiar to you? .....

 

 

Signs I see......He never thinks of my feelings....always insecure...promises me trips and gifts and never follows thru.....obsessed with his job and $ and how people view him and his social status.....he takes part in diff community activites and appears to be such a great guy to people who really do not know him......he says we never have problems and will not discuss anything and just says"we are fine, i love you"....he goes periods of time ignoring me and makes me think I did something wrong. I am so heartbroken and no one understands how I love him. i do not either. I guess it was part of his charm...I do beleive he loves me(in his messed up way). I go back and forth with him and nothing changes.

 

The hard part is I love this man and he believes he loves me too. Part of NPD.

 

 

Yes, yes and yes. Except the last part. Narcissists can feign the illusion of love but they CAN NOT love for real.

Probably the hardest part of waking up to my ex BF gross misconduct of NPD, is that he is incapable of true love.

Somehow if I could hold on and think he did love me "in his way" it wouldn't hurt so bad. But that's magical thinking.

I have to keep banging into my thick skull that when you love someone you don't neglect, toy with, belittle, lord over, revile or hold at arm's length said loved one.

Sure my NPD ex had some sort of caring for me, but only as it concerned him.

He cared about me and my well being if any problem I had could affect him.

I'll end here by illustrating the absence of heart of a bona fide Narcissist:

Tomorrow is 9/11/05.

I used to work at WTC2. I left my job a while before 9/11 as a career change.

I had a lot of good former co workers who were awesome people.

On the morning of 9/11, I watched firsthand out my ex bf's condo window as the terror attacks unfolded.

Instead of comforting me since he knew I used to work there he kept telling me to calm down and not cry about my former co workers being trapped inside.

I actually tried to excuse his behavior and think he was upset too.

I tried to comfort HIM in the midst of my agonizing.

He wasn't interested in a hug and accused me of wanting attention. (!)

He told me to stop being so emotional and to not think I was special because I was more tied into the WTC then him.

He wanted to have a competition over who was more affected by 9/11.

Finally he told me to shut up when we watched the towers.

He said there were more important things for him to dwell on then comforting me.

I think it started to dawn on me then and there how cold he really was.

 

The irony is that anyone who knows him casually thinks he is the greatest and most caring guy who ever lived.

And if I tried to tell them differently I would look petty and bitter.

 

It's a no win situation to be in a 'relationship' of any kind with a NPDer.

And it's also no win to keep dwelling on their inner workings when the semblance of a 'relationship' is fading or over.

I have intensely spent the last few days figuring out the degree of my ex bf's narcissism and I can take no more precious time reflecting on it.

I'm going to fill up all my time with a million other activities to distract myself from his shadow, until time takes care of the rest.

Wish you all the best escaping the pain of your narcissistic bedevilers.

[smile95]

thanks mermaiden-

reminds me when my grand ma was really sick he said "That is what happens...people get old and die" Not, oh sweetie I am here for you or held me or anything. Even when his relatives die, he shows no emotion. So you think that the things I listed are legit and I am not just fitting him into the mold of NPD? Sometimes I wonder if it is me just reading into it? But my friends tell me that this is not normal jerk behavior. It is beyond that. I guess I just got used to all the games. How sad is that! If what I had to say did not involve or affect him, he showed no interest. Did you leave him? Or did you break up mutually?

[smile95]

1 more question......when he would do the silent treatment and I used to chase him for days, was that just feeding his ego more? I assume so. What creature gets off on hurting someone!

[At Peace]

I used to think the long silent treatment was a sign of anger, now that I understand better, the silent treatment is really no regard for us. you know how you might put a book down on the table and forget about it. You aren't worried about that book or thinking of the book's feelings. Then if you happen to glance at it, you might remember to pick it up. Our ex's don't think of our feelings or have compassion or empathy. We were mere objects to narcissist. Even being angry at me would have indicated feelings.. he didn't have any for me. The silent treatment and ignoring a person is also abusive. Do they think they're being abusive they think that we are the needy, insecure ones for wanting affection. People who are compassionate wouldn't disappear without explanation.

[smile95]

at peace...sorry for all the questions, but a lot are coing up for me....what about when I would ask him (in the last 6 months or so) why we are not together and just friends, but he claims to love me? He would say, when we were together, all you did was bicker.....ok the only reason I ever complained was when he broke a promise to call or did not call -then I would maybe be upset and ask why, but never yell. So him blaming me for us not being together really hurts! Does he not see that the reason I got upset was a result of him not keeping his end of the deal? Or is it easier to just say it was my fault.

[At Peace]

I'm coming to understand, narcissists don't like their freedom to be tampered with. Any expectation of wanting something like affection and attention is a threat to their illusion of freedom. The guy I was with, confused me to no end. And I thought about it yesterday. He'd be sweet and we'd be intimate and then in the next moment, he'd bolt out of bed and act as if I were trying to chain him like a caged animal. Then the verbal assaults. So I was caught between feeling what did I do to make him go from hot to icy cold. And natural he'd say, "it's not enough with you...I don't want this..I want to be free!" This with visceral hatred in his tone...these NPD's look at our wanting intimacy or closeness as only a threat to their existence, and by us trying to reason and explain ourselves makes us look weak to them. And it justifies their anger towards us. YOU ARE THE ENEMY the moment you want the simplest of thing like time from them. Its natural that you want to be respected and treated as such...and calling you is a respectful thing to expect and want. It's not a fault he just doesn't see you like a human being. I made a list of all his unsettling ways and it was pretty disturbing. I am looking at that list and it reminds me, how much I closed my eyes to. You must separate your feelings of love and see how much being with him makes you feel degraded. The two sides will fight with each other but that list will be a reminder of why you can't torture yourself any longer.

[smile95]

thanks....I am not convinced he has NPD because he was never hot and cold like that or verbally abusive or EVER yelled at me or said anything hurtful, however, emotioanlly, he hurt me with things he DID NOT do. When we were together(we were LD) we were fine. Just as soon as time passed and he made no time for me, things got worse and he just showed no concern. Even when he knew I had things going on like my new job, he never called to see how my day was or even asked me anything about it. Or if I had dr appts, nothing was ever said about it.These things were not imp to him since it had nothing to do with him I guess. The problem I am having is he was sweet and loving at times, but the hurt I suffered is not worth that. The fact that he could not take 5 min out of his day(this was out ongoing problem) to call me was ridiculous! He would not do that, but when we did talk, somehow convince me he loved me! I was so brainwashed by him that I was excited if I got a text message from him maybe in 3 days. That is what I considered him loving me???? I lived for contact from him and that controlled my moods. Does your ex still call you? How long has it been since you have talked? I am on 2 weeks of NC and feeling better.....each day, I get more and more closure I think. Getting my thoughts out and figuring things out. I still miss him and wonder, but I think that I am feeling better.