I Came So Close: Confusion in the Aftermath [UPDATE]

[BTDT2012]

I will not enter a relationship with her if she maintains any ties to him.

 

How will you know whether she maintains any ties to him?

[TunaInTheBrine]

How will you know whether she maintains any ties to him?

 

I guess I won't, but I'm sure at some point I would figure it out. The point of the therapy and her intention is to live life differently and with more honesty. My hope is she is able to do that. But if she replicates her old ways with me, it will come out at some point and that will be on her. I would walk if I had to. I want a real, honest relationship. Nothing less.

[Birdies]

Having been in her shoes, I would not have been interested in a relationship with my AP if he told me I could not have any contact with my now ex-husband. My ex was a huge part of my life for 15 years - I strongly felt that if he were willing to and interested in maintaining a cordial relationship, that would also be important to me, in order for both of us to heal as well as possible from the trauma. We did stay in touch for quite a while, and my AP completely understood that that was best for me, and therefore he was fully supportive of it. My ex has fallen out of touch and I'm not sure if we will ever have a friendship in the future, but if we did, I would not let anyone else give me an ultimatum based on that.

 

She broke up with him, she doesn't want to be with him - and if she does, she will anyway regardless of what you "let" her do. I think it shows a clear lack of trust and respect on your part to forbid her from talking to her previous life partner of 10 years. What is your rationale for doing that? Is it jealousy or insecurity about your relationship? Because frankly that is your problem, not hers.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Birdies

[TunaInTheBrine]

 

I think it shows a clear lack of trust and respect on your part to forbid her from talking to her previous life partner of 10 years. What is your rationale for doing that? Is it jealousy or insecurity about your relationship? Because frankly that is your problem, not hers.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Thanks for sharing your perspective. It is a complicated scenario for sure.

 

I would never tell her what to do. We are not a couple right now, so if she wants to stay in touch with him, I won't object. They have a long history together.

 

But if we were to have our own relationship, then I know I would not be comfortable with it. They don't have to be on bad terms, but I do not want an ongoing triangle between us.

 

He doesn't know that she and I were together again before she just broke up with him. She believes if she told him that he would never talk to her again, so she is now building a friendship based on a lie too. This also makes me uncomfortable that she is still lying.

 

I know he is trying to work on himself now and improve his relationship skills while they maintain a friendship. Who is to say that when her and I inevitably have a hard time that the new and improve him is hanging around and they get back together? I guess you could say that could really happen with anyone, not just him. That is true, but it ignores the role of lying here. Let's not excuse her dishonesty, because I'm not.

 

If she is an honest person in general, then I'll trust her. I think she is working sincerely on this issue in her personality, and we're both taking things slow because we're aware that change is needed on both of our ends. She needs to learn to be honest, and I need to learn how to trust more. I come with my own issues too for sure. I know this. It's not all about her here. I'm in therapy as well to work on myself.

 

Really, I just want an open, honest, real relationship with this person. As it stands now, the kind of relationship she is asking to have with her fiancé doesn't sound honest, and my sense from our conversation recently is that I would be expected to 'cover' for her among their mutual friends so she doesn't have to face reality. I worry about recreating a dishonest relationship where two people cannot fully be themselves and where that might lead over time, and so I don't want any part of that. Is that unreasonable to want?

Edited July 18, 2017 by TunaInTheBrine

[sandylee1]

This will sound strange. ..but to be honest, I'm not suprised or don't blame her for not telling him she was seeing you again.

 

She doesnt want to look bad and it was over with you two and she ended it with him.

 

I wouldn't have spilled the beans either. Though if I was going for a relationship with a new man, then I wouldn't remain friends. ... it's too easy to slip back into sleeping with him.

[Birdies]

Thanks for sharing your perspective. It is a complicated scenario for sure.

 

I would never tell her what to do. We are not a couple right now, so if she wants to stay in touch with him, I won't object. They have a long history together.

 

But if we were to have our own relationship, then I know I would not be comfortable with it. They don't have to be on bad terms, but I do not want an ongoing triangle between us.

 

He doesn't know that she and I were together again before she just broke up with him. She believes if she told him that he would never talk to her again, so she is now building a friendship based on a lie too. This also makes me uncomfortable that she is still lying.

 

I know he is trying to work on himself now and improve his relationship skills while they maintain a friendship. Who is to say that when her and I inevitably have a hard time that the new and improve him is hanging around and they get back together? I guess you could say that could really happen with anyone, not just him. That is true, but it ignores the role of lying here. Let's not excuse her dishonesty, because I'm not.

 

If she is an honest person in general, then I'll trust her. I think she is working sincerely on this issue in her personality, and we're both taking things slow because we're aware that change is needed on both of our ends. She needs to learn to be honest, and I need to learn how to trust more. I come with my own issues too for sure. I know this. It's not all about her here. I'm in therapy as well to work on myself.

 

Really, I just want an open, honest, real relationship with this person. As it stands now, the kind of relationship she is asking to have with her fiancé doesn't sound honest, and my sense from our conversation recently is that I would be expected to 'cover' for her among their mutual friends so she doesn't have to face reality. I worry about recreating a dishonest relationship where two people cannot fully be themselves and where that might lead over time, and so I don't want any part of that. Is that unreasonable to want?

 

This would bother me too. She clearly has not learned all the right lessons from this experience, if she is still lying to him and to her friends. After my affair was busted, it took me a few days but I finally pulled my head out of my ass and was 100% honest with my ex and with friends. I agree that you need to be starting from a place of full and open discovery in order to have the right foundation for a new, "real" relationship.

 

One of the best ways to ensure that cheating never happens again is to experience to full gamut of consequences from it. Because that SUUUUCKS and makes you realize how much you're destroying with your selfishness. If she skips that step by continuing to lie to everyone, what's to keep her from doing the same thing all over again next time her relationship feels stale and there's a new guy who has piqued her interest? After all, she got away with it once.

 

Yeah I would feel VERY wary of this situation. And given how untrustworthy she is acting, I can see why you wouldn't be comfortable with her being in touch with her ex. I also think it's pretty likely - given what you've said in your updates - that if she wants to and she knows you aren't ok with it, she will keep it from you because "what he doesn't know won't hurt him". Which is, of course, the exact same justification we all use to have the affair in the first place.

 

Good luck!

[Birdies]

This will sound strange. ..but to be honest, I'm not suprised or don't blame her for not telling him she was seeing you again.

 

She doesnt want to look bad and it was over with you two and she ended it with him.

 

I wouldn't have spilled the beans either. Though if I was going for a relationship with a new man, then I wouldn't remain friends. ... it's too easy to slip back into sleeping with him.

 

No, she was in false reconciliation with the ex fiance and he doesn't know it. That's definitely not cool and not a good sign for someone's trustworthiness in a new relationship.

[TunaInTheBrine]

This will sound strange. ..but to be honest, I'm not suprised or don't blame her for not telling him she was seeing you again.

 

She doesnt want to look bad and it was over with you two and she ended it with him.

 

I wouldn't have spilled the beans either. Though if I was going for a relationship with a new man, then I wouldn't remain friends. ... it's too easy to slip back into sleeping with him.

 

I can actually see your point, but because the lying would spill over into our relationship via both of us trying to cover up to their mutual friends about what went down, it's just continuing a life of lying. I don't want that. I want it real and honest. If we're going to do it, we're going to do it right. And if that's not where she's at, she or others could label me as having the problem all they want and I'd be fine with that. I want no part of it if this is how is going to go down.

 

Thank GOD she is in therapy. I seriously hope she works through this all the way...even if we don't wind up together. She is going to kill her own soul in the long run if she doesn't change.

Edited July 18, 2017 by TunaInTheBrine

[TunaInTheBrine]

This would bother me too. She clearly has not learned all the right lessons from this experience, if she is still lying to him and to her friends. After my affair was busted, it took me a few days but I finally pulled my head out of my ass and was 100% honest with my ex and with friends. I agree that you need to be starting from a place of full and open discovery in order to have the right foundation for a new, "real" relationship.

 

One of the best ways to ensure that cheating never happens again is to experience to full gamut of consequences from it. Because that SUUUUCKS and makes you realize how much you're destroying with your selfishness. If she skips that step by continuing to lie to everyone, what's to keep her from doing the same thing all over again next time her relationship feels stale and there's a new guy who has piqued her interest? After all, she got away with it once.

 

Yeah I would feel VERY wary of this situation. And given how untrustworthy she is acting, I can see why you wouldn't be comfortable with her being in touch with her ex. I also think it's pretty likely - given what you've said in your updates - that if she wants to and she knows you aren't ok with it, she will keep it from you because "what he doesn't know won't hurt him". Which is, of course, the exact same justification we all use to have the affair in the first place.

 

Good luck!

 

Wow, you really put it into words what I couldn't. You really hit the nail on the head here.

 

I believe if she followed your advice it would be very helpful for her personal growth, my trust, and an honest shot at a loving relationship. Thank you so much for sharing your perspective.

 

I have a lot of faith in this woman. If I didn't, there is no way I would have pursued her and stuck with the affair. I am very hopeful that she will do the right thing for herself. Even if she and I don't wind up together, I want this for her so badly. She has been through a lot and deserves to heal. I hope her therapy really helps!

Edited July 18, 2017 by TunaInTheBrine

[lana-banana]

Why is it so important for her to sustain a relationship with him even after she's allegedly cut him out of her life? That, on top of the repeated, constant lying even when there's no reason for her to do so, doesn't bode well. She is either highly narcissistic at best or lying about her present circumstances at worst. Try to read your posts with an objective eye. Could you imagine wanting to date someone who by your own admission is dishonest and needs a massive amount of therapy?

 

My husband broke up with his then-girlfriend (they lived together, had been together for over four years) and immediately began dating me. It wasn't an affair situation since we had no contact after we admitted we had feelings for each other, but it could have been. I didn't hear from him again until after they had broken up. It was still a horribly messy situation but he handled it with grace and compassion, which is part of why I was willing to date him at all. Had he lied to me or insisted on lying to all our friends, or maintaining a relationship with her, I would've been livid.

 

It's easy to envision you a few years from now in the exact same boat her fiancé is in today. Nothing you've described so far indicates she has any interest in making sincere changes in her life. Are you really going to gamble your future on a leopard changing its spots?

[BaileyB]

Indeed. This woman has proven that she can lie and cheat with the best of them... Has she given you any indication that she plans to change her ways and settle down in a monogamous relationship with you (assuming that's what you want)? Do you really want to gamble your future life happiness on this woman?

 

No way in &&&& would I trust this woman. She is not in a healthy place in her life and you know that... To stay with her would be a really big risk...

[TunaInTheBrine]

Has she given you any indication that she plans to change her ways and settle down in a monogamous relationship with you (assuming that's what you want)? Do you really want to gamble your future life happiness on this woman?

 

Yes. In no particular order, she has entered psychotherapy with someone good, she has ended her engagement with her fiancé, she practically lived with me for three months during the affair until D-Day, she has spoken about me recently to some family and friends to gauge their level of support/approval (not full disclosure about the affair, but some disclosure about the open relationship and who I am as a person), and she continues to communicate with me specifically about the things she is working hard to change. I have noticed some changes in her already in a few months, but it has been very, very slow.

 

She does want to settle down in a monogamous relationship with me. She says she envisions marriage and children with me, and us living close to her family in case we need support with kids. She says I have changed her life in the year she has known me, and I would say the same about her and the effect she has had on my life. We have been through a lot together and are willing to go the distance. She has a lot more to lose than I do, so its been slow on her part, but things have picked up very fast in the last month or so. We are not rushing anything or putting a lot of pressure on the situation, but we are very serious about doing things right so we don't screw up again. Over the months ahead we may even realize we can't do this at all because there's just too much involved that is insurmountable. That is a possibility. However, we both seem to be very open to each other and what is possible if we are dedicated and our hearts are still in the right place.

 

I do not want to recklessly gamble my future. I do believe I am doing the right thing by not committing to anything yet, watching what she does over time with herself as she grieves the loss of her LTR, and holding firm boundaries about what is and what is not okay to me (e.g. her staying friends with her ex, keeping up lies, etc...). I am making sure to take good care of myself in the process too (e.g. therapy) and be in a place mentally where I'm really okay with whether or not we decide to do this. I already am in some ways. If it all works out, I will have partnered with a really special woman who knows me very well and is willing to make a life together. If it doesn't work out and we don't give it a shot after all, I've reclaimed my personal sense of power and not allowed her to determine my happiness in the way that I had before when I basically thought if I didn't get her then my love life would never recover. I don't believe that anymore. So no matter what happens, I win, and so does she.

[TunaInTheBrine]

Why is it so important for her to sustain a relationship with him even after she's allegedly cut him out of her life? That, on top of the repeated, constant lying even when there's no reason for her to do so, doesn't bode well. She is either highly narcissistic at best or lying about her present circumstances at worst. Try to read your posts with an objective eye. Could you imagine wanting to date someone who by your own admission is dishonest and needs a massive amount of therapy?

 

I sincerely believe she is not trying to deceive or hurt anyone, but I am suspicious that she is not aware of the subtle ways she is rationalizing unethical behavior so that she ultimately feels safer, doesn't have to face as much shame, etc... and I can already see how this could just lead to more of the same down the road. It's exactly why I called her out on it and was very firm that I would not be with her for as long as her ex was still in the picture. She is lying to protect her image in the eyes of their shared mutual friends, and although she won't admit to it I think she's also lying just in case her and I don't work out so that the door is open for another chance with him if he gets his act together. That's my gut impression. She is ultimately trying to protect herself. Even if she's not trying to hurt anyone, she is in the process. She is building a friendship with him out of a lie. She is going to drag me into lying with her. It's a slippery slope into hell, if you ask me. I won't allow it. No more lies. She comes clean to family and friends and does things the right way or I'm staying behind.

 

I am not letting my feelings prevent me from seeing the potential for destruction. As much as I love her, I am going to tread very carefully until time and actions have proven themselves. If she is sincere about change for herself, and also sincere about being with me, it will happen naturally over time. If things have come this far, I believe anything is possible at this point. I love her very, very much, and I do see the potential to spend the rest of our lives together. I really do. If it doesn't work out that way though because she can't get her act together, I have no problem continuing my life as it is now and get back into dating down the road. I think she is learning very slowly that if she doesn't change that ultimately she is going to suffer very hard compared to if she does take responsible action. It doesn't mean she'll do it, but she is seeing more and more the reality of the choices in front of her. I really hope that it all works out, obviously, but I'm prepared if it doesn't.

Edited July 19, 2017 by TunaInTheBrine

[whichwayisup]

Yup. She's in therapy, and so am I. We've discussed the usefulness of doing couple therapy one day to come to terms with what we have been through.

 

She's not hot/cold as in being unsure about us. She is hot/cold as in some days she is enthusiastic about us and other days she is scared. She likes to say there's more to gain from our relationship and so more to lose. She has told some family and friend about me in small doses. She and I think we could get married and have children if this all works out.

 

We definitely communicate. Sounds like we're doing our best and the rest will unfold as it should, whatever that may be.

 

She needs alone time and to grieve this loss. 10 years is a long time and their lives were entwined. Family, friends, neighbours etc..etc.. They built a life together and planned to get over and now it's over. It's going to take time to adjust and rebuild. Be a friend but not her shoulder to cry on. Give her space and put sex on hold. No more of it and when you're both ready and the timing is better date in a proper way and get out of the affair dynamic that you two have now.

[sandylee1]

I can actually see your point, but because the lying would spill over into our relationship via both of us trying to cover up to their mutual friends about what went down, it's just continuing a life of lying. I don't want that. I want it real and honest. If we're going to do it, we're going to do it right. And if that's not where she's at, she or others could label me as having the problem all they want and I'd be fine with that. I want no part of it if this is how is going to go down.

 

Thank GOD she is in therapy. I seriously hope she works through this all the way...even if we don't wind up together. She is going to kill her own soul in the long run if she doesn't change.

 

Well her Ex knew about the affair between you both at one point didn't he? So I'm sure he can figure out that she possibly still has feelings for you and that's why she broke up with him.

 

Personally, in his position I really wouldn't care as it's over now. He can move on with his life.

 

Nobody is voluntary going want all their friends to know they cheated and if she doesn't have to reveal that, then that is her prerogative.

 

It doesn't mean she won't learn from therapy, she's in self protection mode.

 

And to be honest, it's no business of her friends how or why her relationship ended.

 

I might come over as advocating deception, but that's not the case at all.

 

I know that I've done things in my life that I've learned from, without divulging to others.

 

I think it's natural that you feel insecure, because you know she's cheated in a long term relationship before, although I question how important monogamy is /was to her when she agreed to an open relationship with him.

 

Or was it a case of them wanting to spice things up and explore other people?

[TunaInTheBrine]

 

I think it's natural that you feel insecure, because you know she's cheated in a long term relationship before, although I question how important monogamy is /was to her when she agreed to an open relationship with him.

 

Or was it a case of them wanting to spice things up and explore other people?

 

She was interested in alternative relationships for a time, but I was the only other person besides him she was ever with and she decided after that experience that the lifestyle wasn't for her

[sandylee1]

She was interested in alternative relationships for a time, but I was the only other person besides him she was ever with and she decided after that experience that the lifestyle wasn't for her

 

I see. Thanks.

 

Do you understand how she wouldn't want people to know about her affair with you though?

 

Also, she could be thinking about her Ex too. Some people don't want anyone else to know they've been cheated on, as they perceive it as a shame on them.

 

 

The face that she was seeking an alternative relationship of some sort, kind of shows that she wasn't fully satisfied with him.

 

I hope she's not the type to get bored after a while. You need to bear that in mind.... That she may want something different after a while.

 

If it's meant to be, you two will be together in the end. I hope it works out for you.

[TunaInTheBrine]

Do you understand how she wouldn't want people to know about her affair with you though?

 

Also, she could be thinking about her Ex too. Some people don't want anyone else to know they've been cheated on, as they perceive it as a shame on them.

 

Absolutely. He already knows about it happening twice. It's not really going to do him any good to know about it for a third time if she was going to call if it off with him anyway at that point. What really bothers me the most is the idea of colluding with her at protecting a lie to mutual friends and such if we're together (i.e. are we just going to be maintaining the same dishonesty dynamic that brought about the affair in the first place?). And yeah, there's also a threat I perceive of him possibly returning into her life if he doesn't know the hard facts. I don't know how much of that is 'my stuff' and how much of it is actually worth being concerned over. Probably some combination of both. Either way, it's good to think and talk about it openly with her and I imagine we'll do more of that at some point. Regardless how we choose to handle everything with other people, talking about it thoroughly seems right at the very least.

 

The fact that she was seeking an alternative relationship of some sort, kind of shows that she wasn't fully satisfied with him.

 

I hope she's not the type to get bored after a while. You need to bear that in mind.... That she may want something different after a while.

 

I always knew she wasn't fully satisfied with him. He is a great guy, but they just weren't a match. She and I both have high sex drives, and we have talked a lot about alternative sexual lifestyles. Our mutual consensus seems to be that while they're nice in theory, we've learned first hand how horrible it is for us personally in real life. Neither of us wants to do that again. I do believe we have both learned some hard lessons about this and what works vs. doesn't work for each of us individually.

 

If it's meant to be, you two will be together in the end. I hope it works out for you.

 

I agree. I hope it works out too. If not, we'll both be okay in the long run. I just want what's best for us both. I love her very, very much.

Edited July 19, 2017 by TunaInTheBrine

[springy]

 

I was also upset that she wasn't honest with him that she had been seeing me again recently. Their deal was that if she saw me again for a third time/affair that it was done. Her thinking was that since it was done anyway there was no point in telling him, but now she wants to have a friendship with him based on a lie. Strange.

 

But yeah, they did break up.

 

I would wonder if she's not keeping this from him in case she does decide she wants to go back. Third time = permanent break so if I tell I can never go back. I also would have a very hard time being with someone who has a lying problem, and who wanted to keep me a secret from the ex that they have decided they want to stay in touch with. She is all about self preservation; never mind that he might be "owed" the truth. In her defense he does know she is prone to lying and cheating so if he decides to continue any sort of relationship with her he can't say he doesn't know what he's dealing with.

 

I suppose I am biased, as I was in a relationship with someone who was a habitual liar among many other things. He had a terrible childhood too. Ultimately he was unable to break free of those habits. To this day I don't know what was truth and what was a lie. I sympathize with those who didn't get a fair start in life but I just would rather steer clear of people with unresolved issues.

 

This seems awfully risky to me, but it's not my risk to take. Just don't walk around with love blinders on. Hopefully things turn out better for you than what I experienced. Good luck.

Edited July 19, 2017 by springy

[TunaInTheBrine]

I would wonder if she's not keeping this from him in case she does decide she wants to go back. Third time = permanent break so if I tell I can never go back.

 

That's what I am wondering. I feel bad for wondering it, because I do have trust issues and so I worry if it is really my issue, not hers. On the other hand, I don't feel it's unreasonable to suspect. I am so confused about what to think about it right now. I have no idea. My therapist thinks I should let her be friends with him. Under these conditions though, I am not honestly not comfortable with it. Am I really crazy for feeling this way?

 

Just don't walk around with love blinders on. Hopefully things turn out better for you than what I experienced. Good luck.

 

I hope so too. I think the most important parts are that her and I have some distance right now to be alone, work on ourselves, and if and when we do decide to pursue a relationship to really talk all of these things through. Better to work them out now in the early stages of the relationship instead of the middle of the relationship, as someone recently told me.

 

Thank you for all of the support!

[sandylee1]

You mention wanting her to be honest with their /your mutual friends about things like how you got together .... But do you realise that full honesty means, telling people how you met, that she was with him at the time and they were exploring an open relationship.

 

That's more than most people will want to tell their friends and it's private info. I certainly wouldn't want my sex life being common knowledge among friends.

 

You see, whilst she's cheated on him, any couple who opens their relationship runs the risk of their partner developing feelings for another.

 

You can set all the ground rules that you like in advance, but by giving each other permission to be intimate with others, I don't have sympathy for him in their situation.

[TunaInTheBrine]

You mention wanting her to be honest with their /your mutual friends about things like how you got together .... But do you realise that full honesty means, telling people how you met, that she was with him at the time and they were exploring an open relationship.

 

That's more than most people will want to tell their friends and it's private info. I certainly wouldn't want my sex life being common knowledge among friends.

 

You see, whilst she's cheated on him, any couple who opens their relationship runs the risk of their partner developing feelings for another.

 

You can set all the ground rules that you like in advance, but by giving each other permission to be intimate with others, I don't have sympathy for him in their situation.

 

Of course!

 

But am I crazy to feel insecure that she wants to stay in contact with her ex who doesn't know the truth about her cheating with me again when/if she is officially with me?

[somanymistakes]

Not crazy to worry about it, especially considering how much back and forth there's already been with her. I am not sure the roller coaster is over yet.

[Zolatola]

I think you're kidding yourself that this is going to end well. She's comfortable with lying and you're next. This isn't going to end well unless you walk away.

[TunaInTheBrine]

I think you're kidding yourself that this is going to end well. She's comfortable with lying and you're next. This isn't going to end well unless you walk away.

 

But how can you be so sure? Some people do change. She is in therapy, she ended the relationship with her now ex fiancé, she is taking time to herself away from me to work on herself, and she hasn't promised me anything of the future. I feel like she is trying hard to be honest with herself for once. She still has some work to do and I don't feel she's quite ready for me yet, but she is demonstrating an interest in working on herself and making things right. Of course, maybe it won't work out after all, but I don't get the sense that she is thinking that she would like to set up a relationship with me only to destroy it. She does want a family, kids, a faithful marriage, the whole thing... Yes, I do worry that if she doesn't come to terms fully with why she uses lying as a form of self-preservation and find healthier ways to live that she will inevitably destroy any relationship she has (infidelity or otherwise), but my sense is that she is sincere in her efforts to change. So I ask again, how can you be so sure? I'm not trying to be difficult, but I'm honestly curious why you feel that way. I want to hope that things could possibly work, but I also know there's a chance they won't. A lot remains to be seen is the way I'm thinking.

Edited July 22, 2017 by TunaInTheBrine