Why do I get a sense that a lot of women feel I'm beneath them?

[telemakus]

On purpose to illustrate the ridiculous standard whereby people are not judged on personality first.

 

So when it's the SOLE reason then being attracted by socio-economic status is worse than being attracted by looks. But as a contributing factor to one's attractiveness, they stand equal?

[elaine567]

It would just leave a bitter taste in my mouth knowing the only reason I got with her is due to making better than average money. .

 

OK but by the way you are going, it is very unlikely to happen to you, is it?

Time is moving on for you, you are already in your thirties.

To quote a cliche - "Life is not a rehearsal", you don't get to do it all again only better this time.

 

Where are you going to get this "better than average" money job you speak of? It is not just going to fall into your lap, is it?

You can't just hide away in a lowly retail position and hope to be "head hunted" can you?

Unless you start DOING something to get yourself out of this rut soon, then you will be 40, 50, 60+ and still in retail and still moaning about how "women" don't do this and don't do that...

 

Unfortunately because of where you are in life now, 31, living at home, and in a low end job with little career prospects, many women WILL feel you are "beneath" them.

Get some fire in your belly and change your life for the better.

[Els]

OK but by the way you are going, it is very unlikely to happen to you, is it?

Time is moving on for you, you are already in your thirties.

To quote a cliche - "Life is not a rehearsal", you don't get to do it all again only better this time.

 

Where are you going to get this "better than average" money job you speak of? It is not just going to fall into your lap, is it?

You can't just hide away in a lowly retail position and hope to be "head hunted" can you?

Unless you start DOING something to get yourself out of this rut soon, then you will be 40, 50, 60+ and still in retail and still moaning about how "women" don't do this and don't do that...

 

Plus really, it's extremely unlikely that a woman would be with a man solely because he has an "above average income". Yes, there are gold-diggers out there who don't value a man's personality, but those tend to go for the dudes that are in the top 2-5% of total income, who have the luxury cars, the mansions, the yachts. If a guy is making an 'above average' income and able to afford rent in a middle-class house for two, I think in most cases he can rest assured that the woman he's with is with him for the whole package, personality included.

 

The OP's complaints just sound to me like a 300 lbs woman who bathes once a week, wears tattered rags all the time and whose vagina has never been washed, complaining that she can't find a boyfriend. And when anyone gently suggests that she should maybe consider a daily shower, she says, "Like hell I'm gonna doll myself up to look like Megan Fox or a porn star just to get a man! It'd leave a bitter taste in my mouth knowing that he's with me just for my looks."

Edited June 5, 2017 by Elswyth

[ZA Dater]

OK but by the way you are going, it is very unlikely to happen to you, is it?

Time is moving on for you, you are already in your thirties.

To quote a cliche - "Life is not a rehearsal", you don't get to do it all again only better this time.

 

Where are you going to get this "better than average" money job you speak of? It is not just going to fall into your lap, is it?

You can't just hide away in a lowly retail position and hope to be "head hunted" can you?

Unless you start DOING something to get yourself out of this rut soon, then you will be 40, 50, 60+ and still in retail and still moaning about how "women" don't do this and don't do that...

 

Unfortunately because of where you are in life now, 31, living at home, and in a low end job with little career prospects, many women WILL feel you are "beneath" them.

Get some fire in your belly and change your life for the better.

 

Yes, people need to make changes but to be tossed to the kerb based on job is to nothing short of pathetic and should be treated with utter disdain.

 

 

Yes I get what the OP is saying but equally if you don't appeal to your market then you need to change your appeal to something that is or just make peace with the fact you wont ever get what you want, even if you do change success isn't assured.

[Bastile]

Money is comfort, not attraction. Any man that ever approached even a handful of times knows this.

 

The devil is avoidance. OLD is (often but not always) avoidance. Burying your head in work is avoidance. Coming up with all of this mgtow type moaning about women and societal standards is avoidance.

 

The version of women being painted by people in this thread isn't even one that I personally recognize anyway.

 

Make yourself great on paper, and you create a great platform for a relationship based on utility. That's probably the lowest form of relationship there is. You are being advised to take one small step up on the ladder from involuntary celibacy. And heck, involuntary celibacy might even arguably be the better option.

 

I make a very modest income. And of all the problems I have with women, money is so far down the list that it's laughable. Seriously it's not even worth worrying about.

 

I don't centre my career around women. I think that's desperate, and the desperation must seep through a man's general nature that does it. I'm now considering changing my career back to being something more strenuous, and I'm considering serious ltr's because that's just where I'm getting to naturally as a person. I'm starting to want different things, and different challenges. It has nothing to do with attracting women at all.

 

Have more confidence in your worth as a human being. The limiting beliefs of others should be taken with a pinch of salt. Has no bearing on what I've seen and done.

 

A few random women off of plenty of fish don't respond to messages, so you consider changing your entire life and belief system? OLD is a circus. It's not a good representation of real life. Get off of it, and start going out and being social. The way to get better with women is to actually be around women.

 

Always prioritize your own experiences. Right now you don't have any to prioritize in the first place. Go about changing that.

[elaine567]

Yes, people need to make changes but to be tossed to the kerb based on job is to nothing short of pathetic and should be treated with utter disdain.

 

Everyday, everyone judges people based on their job.

"What do you do?" is a very common opener.

We do that to provide ourselves with a frame of reference.

We then form an opinion of that person.

 

Most women looking for a relationship, realise that she needs a man that can provide for a family. If he can hardly provide for himself and has a dead end job, then how can he possibly provide for a family?

That is why if she is sensible, she has to toss him to the kerb. It is not in her best interests to date him.

This is about real life, with real life problems, she and her kids can't live on love and most women do not really want to end up with three P/T jobs to subsidise a man who can't ever earn enough to keep the family going.

[ZA Dater]

Everyday, everyone judges people based on their job.

"What do you do?" is a very common opener.

We do that to provide ourselves with a frame of reference.

We then form an opinion of that person.

 

Most women looking for a relationship, realise that she needs a man that can provide for a family. If he can hardly provide for himself and has a dead end job, then how can he possibly provide for a family?

That is why if she is sensible, she has to toss him to the kerb. It is not in her best interests to date him.

This is about real life, with real life problems, she and her kids can't live on love and most women do not really want to end up with three P/T jobs to subsidise a man who can't ever earn enough to keep the family going.

 

Perfectly fine IF SHE has worked hard to be the best she can be career wise, however, more often than not its people who throw people to the curb who themselves have dead end jobs. That's what I take exception to.

 

 

Perhaps I also don't really care too much for the question because never ever has me blurting out I run multiple companies ever got me any further than saying I work in finance.

[JuneL]

You already sadly know the answer to this. The response is usually "because that's the way life is" & "life isn't fair so deal with it."

 

How is life unfair to you when you have enabling parents who allow their son to stay in their house for free in his 30s? Do they cook and clean for you too??

[elaine567]

Perfectly fine IF SHE has worked hard to be the best she can be career wise, however, more often than not its people who throw people to the curb who themselves have dead end jobs. That's what I take exception to.

 

But where she is in life is often immaterial, as men in general do not to put a high value on women who have done well career wise. If it was that important, men would be lining up for women in their thirties who are CEOs, not 23 yo waitresses...

Yes, she needs to be solvent and not be a huge drain on his resources, but it is often a case of who cares what she does for a job?

[CptInsano]

Plus really, it's extremely unlikely that a woman would be with a man solely because he has an "above average income". Yes, there are gold-diggers out there who don't value a man's personality, but those tend to go for the dudes that are in the top 2-5% of total income, who have the luxury cars, the mansions, the yachts. [...]

 

That is highly relative. In certain parts of the country a good health plan may be enough. The more desperate the circumstances the more likely these patterns become. Or as a father of a woman who ran off with her accountant boyfriend in Southern Ohio once told me: "He's lying! He says he makes $60k a year. Nobody makes this kind of money."

[thefooloftheyear]

Everyday, everyone judges people based on their job.

"What do you do?" is a very common opener.

We do that to provide ourselves with a frame of reference.

We then form an opinion of that person.

 

Most women looking for a relationship, realise that she needs a man that can provide for a family. If he can hardly provide for himself and has a dead end job, then how can he possibly provide for a family?

That is why if she is sensible, she has to toss him to the kerb. It is not in her best interests to date him.

This is about real life, with real life problems, she and her kids can't live on love and most women do not really want to end up with three P/T jobs to subsidise a man who can't ever earn enough to keep the family going.

 

let me check the calendar.....ok...whew....I thought we were back ini 1962...

 

I hear what you are saying and as a lifelong big provider I do get it....But from what I have seen lately(esp true of people who are divorced/middle aged), the income thing is less of an issue...As long as someone isn't a complete leech, its not seen as much of a negative...

 

TFY

[Els]

That is highly relative. In certain parts of the country a good health plan may be enough. The more desperate the circumstances the more likely these patterns become. Or as a father of a woman who ran off with her accountant boyfriend in Southern Ohio once told me: "He's lying! He says he makes $60k a year. Nobody makes this kind of money."

 

Oh, certainly, but "above average" is relative to location as well, no? If you were in Bangladesh or Sudan and earned USD 50k a year, there would likely be quite a few women willing to be with you regardless of your personality, because that's an absolutely extravagant income for that location. But if you were in San Francisco or London, that would be different. What's the actual average in Ohio?

 

Regardless of location, though, my point is that women don't usually just choose to be with a man solely because he earns an 'above average' income (for that location), completely ignoring personality and compatibility. In logistical terms, it's just not worth the sacrifice. It's much more likely for that to be just one of the many positive points that are considered in choosing a partner.

 

So it doesn't really make sense for anyone to think that if they earned an "above average" income, they'd automatically be swarmed by gold-diggers who were only interested in money . The exception might be if they're dating very young women - to an 18 year old, $50k/year probably does sound like an unfathomable fortune. But if you're dating in an age-appropriate range, gold-digging just isn't a major problem for anyone except for the top 2% in terms of wealth, IMO.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Elswyth

[Els]

let me check the calendar.....ok...whew....I thought we were back ini 1962...

 

I hear what you are saying and as a lifelong big provider I do get it....But from what I have seen lately(esp true of people who are divorced/middle aged), the income thing is less of an issue...As long as someone isn't a complete leech, its not seen as much of a negative...

 

TFY

 

Yeah, I agree that in this day and age, lots of women don't care about whether the guy can provide for a family. It's still almost always expected that he can provide for himself, though - which the OP can't.

[ZA Dater]

But where she is in life is often immaterial, as men in general do not to put a high value on women who have done well career wise. If it was that important, men would be lining up for women in their thirties who are CEOs, not 23 yo waitresses...

Yes, she needs to be solvent and not be a huge drain on his resources, but it is often a case of who cares what she does for a job?

 

Well I guess there is no accounting for taste.

 

 

The career women is usually deemed too threatening for most intellectually inferior men, I do have a great of sympathy and respect for those ladies.

 

 

I think the OP needs to meet some very dynamic ladies, if for no other reason than obtain perspective.

[NJ123]

Yeah, I agree that in this day and age, lots of women don't care about whether the guy can provide for a family. It's still almost always expected that he can provide for himself, though - which the OP can't.

 

I just don't get what the point is in the end though of it coming down to my job for why a woman is going to want to be with me? It almost feels completely pointless to even be with anyone if it literally would have nothing to do with me as a person. And I honestly don't know why I come back to post here. I get serious vibes that I'm not even liked here where it's like I'm the enemy or something.

Edited June 5, 2017 by NJ123

[Els]

I just don't get what the point is in the end though of it coming down to my job for why a woman is going to want to be with me? It almost feels completely pointless to even be with anyone if it literally would have nothing to do with me as a person. And I honestly don't know why I come back to post here. I get serious vibes that I'm not even liked here where it's like I'm the enemy or something.

 

IMO, having your parents subsidize your living costs when you are 31 says a LOT about you as a person.

 

Look, if you were "the enemy" I wouldn't even bother posting to you. You asked a question and people are trying to help give answers. Or was that not truly what you were seeking?

[elaine567]

I hear what you are saying and as a lifelong big provider I do get it....But from what I have seen lately(esp true of people who are divorced/middle aged), the income thing is less of an issue...As long as someone isn't a complete leech, its not seen as much of a negative...

 

TFY

 

Well that would make a lot of sense as an older crowd do not have child care to worry about, they can also work and look after themselves, or are living off divorce settlements, inheritances, pensions, investments etc.

But asking about a job is not just about money, it is also a short cut to making other "educated guesses" about a person too.

 

Whether we are in 2017 or 1962, it is still better for a woman to choose a man who can provide and do the heavy lifting earning wise, whilst she is pregnant, whilst she is providing child care, whilst she can only work p/t etc.

NOT every woman is earning a huge salary, some are only capable of earning minimum wage, so if she wants a family then she still needs to choose a man who will provide, even in 2017.

[Bastile]

Well that would make a lot of sense as an older crowd do not have child care to worry about, they can also work and look after themselves, or are living off divorce settlements, inheritances, pensions, investments etc.

But asking about a job is not just about money, it is also a short cut to making other "educated guesses" about a person too.

 

Whether we are in 2017 or 1962, it is still better for a woman to choose a man who can provide and do the heavy lifting earning wise, whilst she is pregnant, whilst she is providing child care, whilst she can only work p/t etc.

NOT every woman is earning a huge salary, some are only capable of earning minimum wage, so if she wants a family then she still needs to choose a man who will provide, even in 2017.

 

Basic lover/provider tightrope that men have to walk.

 

No different than the opposite for women being the "sexually inexperienced/sexually experienced" tightrope that women walk, shall we say.

[NJ123]

IMO, having your parents subsidize your living costs when you are 31 says a LOT about you as a person.

 

Look, if you were "the enemy" I wouldn't even bother posting to you. You asked a question and people are trying to help give answers. Or was that not truly what you were seeking?

 

I know some people that were living at home at 33 that got with attractive women so that disqualifies your argument to an extent. They did have good jobs though admittedly but still they weren't on their own. And I live in one of the most expensive places in the U.S. so I can't just go out & move on my own like nothing or go move to another state like nothing without knowing one person.

 

No, but it just seems like all anyone does is personally attack me when I post & it's extremely annoying. I just don't get good vibes from this place a lot of the time. I didn't want the thread like previous ones to turn into negativity like every other thread seems to. Almost every other thread on here is attacks on people it seems like.

Edited June 5, 2017 by NJ123

[CptInsano]

Oh, certainly, but "above average" is relative to location as well, no? If you were in Bangladesh or Sudan and earned USD 50k a year, there would likely be quite a few women willing to be with you regardless of your personality, because that's an absolutely extravagant income for that location. But if you were in San Francisco or London, that would be different. What's the actual average in Ohio?[...]

 

50k is about the average income in Ohio. The key is though that southern Ohio is very remote, and a lot of people get paid under the table to circumvent taxes and the minimum wages, and you also have a lot of welfare towns because the cost of living is so low.

 

Regardless of location, though, my point is that women don't usually just choose to be with a man solely because he earns an 'above average' income (for that location), completely ignoring personality and compatibility. In logistical terms, it's just not worth the sacrifice. It's much more likely for that to be just one of the many positive points that are considered in choosing a partner.

 

That is in my experience true for the majority of women. However, you will definitely find a group that will indeed go for the money.

 

So it doesn't really make sense for anyone to think that if they earned an "above average" income, they'd automatically be swarmed by gold-diggers who were only interested in money . The exception might be if they're dating very young women - to an 18 year old, $50k/year probably does sound like an unfathomable fortune. But if you're dating in an age-appropriate range, gold-digging just isn't a concern for anyone, IMO.

 

You will not get swarmed by golddiggers, but they will show up in certain intervals. They're fairly easy to recognize and the exception to the rule, but I've seen the first when I was around 25, and I've just seen one of my friends fall for one. I still remember sitting next to his sister at the wedding, and saying that she was angry would be an understatement.

[CptInsano]

Yeah, I agree that in this day and age, lots of women don't care about whether the guy can provide for a family. It's still almost always expected that he can provide for himself, though - which the OP can't.

 

I would take that a bit further. They expect the man to be in a similar socioeconomic group to their own. Granted, I see exceptions, but couples are often very much alike in this regard.

Edited June 5, 2017 by CptInsano

[MJJean]

Personality is not acceptable currency to the mortgage company, the utilities companies, the grocery store, the car insurance company, the doctor's office, or anywhere that sells children's clothes and shoes.

 

Women in their mid-20's and older are beginning to think about the future. Marriage. Babies. Mortgage and car payments.

 

I live in the Midwest. Low to mid cost of living area. Let me give you an idea of our monthly expenses.

 

Mortgage - $650 (30 year fixed rate w 20% down on a 1200 SQ ft 3 bedroom ranch home in a decent lower middle class neighborhood)

 

Homeowners Insurance - $125

 

Property Tax - $338

 

Heat and Electric - $250

 

Cable and Internet -$189 (one premium channel, no extras like sports packages.)

 

Cell Phones -$105 ( family plan for 4 lines, one for me, one for DH, other 2 for kids.)

 

Groceries - $800 ( We make all meals at home and frequently use leftovers to cut expenses. Coffee, lunch, etc. all homemade)

 

Misc. Expenses -$300 ( Gas for cars, cleaners, grooming products, that stuff)

 

Health Insurance is currently free, but we will be paying soon and that will cost approximately $700 monthly. (Job change)

 

Also, we don't have car payments. Ours are both paid off and over 10 years old. Many have the added expense of a car payment.

 

Our kids are older and in school full time, so we don't have daycare expenses. Daycare averages $175 per week per child here.

 

Since the kids are older we also don't have to buy clothes and shoes as frequently. With young kids add in about $100 every week or two for diapers, formula, baby food, etc. Add in more frequent clothes and shoes while they're in rapid growth phases.

 

I'm also not counting retirement savings that should be happening monthly.

 

In terms of providing for a family, do you see how income matters? A man doesn't have to be making 6 figures, but he's got to be making more than minimum wage or slightly above.

 

You don't have to get a degree, but you have to at least get a job that pays enough to allow you to move into your own place and occasionally go out for fun. I don't know a single culturally Western woman over 21 that's willing to date anyone still at home. ( Other ethnic groups found in the area in large numbers seem to more or less expect adults to live at home until marriage). Western women tend to view a man living at home as lacking development, maturity, and real world experience. What they're​ looking for is a fully functional mature mate with the necessary life skills and experience.

 

I know lots of men who work manual labor or skilled trades and are paid well enough to support themselves. You could get a manual labor job or skilled labor training/ apprenticeship within days if you are willing and look for opportunity. Then you could save, move on your own, and give dating a go from a much different position.

[elaine567]

I just don't get what the point is in the end though of it coming down to my job for why a woman is going to want to be with me? It almost feels completely pointless to even be with anyone if it literally would have nothing to do with me as a person. And I honestly don't know why I come back to post here. I get serious vibes that I'm not even liked here where it's like I'm the enemy or something.

 

Choosing the right mate is important, so many women have a checklist of things they want in a mate in the same way men have a checklist.

Some things are deemed to be necessary and fixed and non negotiable, and some things are not so important, so there is some flexibility.

 

The whole package you offer will be looked at and she will then decide if she wants to take things further, in the same way you decide if you want to take things further. You had no qualms turning down those women, you did not find attractive. Did you really care about how great a person they were? NO you turned them down on looks alone...

 

The fact you work in retail may not be a deal-breaker because you don't earn much, it may be a deal-breaker in that you probably have to work weird hours and weekends, she may turn down a doctor for the same reason...

You have to fit into her style of life and be what she wants in a man, if you don't fit the bill, then it doesn't really matter how great a person you may be. It is all about compatibility at the end of the day.

Edited June 5, 2017 by elaine567

[NJ123]

Choosing the right mate is important, so many women have a checklist of things they want in a mate in the same way men have a checklist.

Some things are deemed to be necessary and fixed and non negotiable, and some things are not so important, so there is some flexibility.

 

The whole package you offer will be looked at and she will then decide if she wants to take things further, in the same way you decide if you want to take things further. You had no qualms turning down those women, you did not find attractive. Did you really care about how great a person they were? NO you turned them down on looks alone...

 

The fact you work in retail may not be a deal-breaker because you don't earn much, it may be a deal-breaker in that you probably have to work weird hours and weekends, she may turn down a doctor for the same reason...

You have to fit into her style of life and be what she wants in a man, if you don't fit the bill, then it doesn't really matter how great a person you may be. It is all about compatibility at the end of the day.

 

I get what you're saying about me turning down women I'm not attracted to. But physical attraction is something you can't help. It's the same thing as women having hangups about height. It's just leaving me feeling completely jaded for not being good enough for the women I do find attractive though. It's almost like I feel the only reason they interact with me is in forced situations like if I have to help them out at my job. But outside of that it's like they would rather I not even exist. I just really dislike the idea behind it coming down to my job it seems like though. It's almost like there's no such thing as loving someone unconditionally outside of their children. It just feels like a "what can you do for me now" type of thing & it's really lame.

[thefooloftheyear]

All of this talk of standards of income and what have you, bear in mind that there are faithful and dutiful women(some quite attractive as well) that are waiting patiently for their man to get out of jail, while they pay their bills, post bail, take care of the kids, etc...

 

Sure, I have given an extreme example, but there are several couples I know where the woman makes more(often times significantly more) than the guy and they get along just fine...

 

I've always been an earner and never needed anyone, but I have ZERO doubt that I could easily attract a 100K plus woman, even if I was stocking the shelves at Home Depot for shyt money...

 

Let's stop with the nonsense....I know women like big earners, but probably moreso because those guys usually possess more Alpha qualities....Just like women like/support broke bad guys for the same reasons...

 

I predict women will be making significantly more than men in the upcoming years- parrticularly in regular jobs...,,,Its happening..Women are just more competent than men in just about all fields except those that require physical prowess....So we better get used to it...

 

Bottom line for OP....Its not that...Sure, it hurts you if you bring little else to the table, but don't think for a minute that all guys with shytty paying jobs are sitting alone with their dicks in their hand.,,

 

 

 

TFY