Want to believe in God but can't

[knabe]

But I sure as heck would have tried or deflected. Of all the gospels, The Gospel of John is the most interestingly esoteric in nature.

 

I think he meant the book of Revelation - you know, horses, Babylon, grasshoppers, creatures with four faces, etc. lol

 

It's the Bible Version of The Wall....

 

I know some people who are so into Revelation they have predicted the antiChrist to be about a dozen different people. Look up John Hagee for an example

[BC1980]

Like what. What can I do with religion that I can't do without?

 

I have purpose. No god needed.

Have that too.

I don't have that and I don't need it. I am happy with my life and after it is over will be like before it started. Was it bad before you were born?

 

In my estimation, the only thing religion can provide that nothing else can is hope of an afterlife. I think there is no need for religion aside from that idea. I'm not saying that religion is the only means for community and purpose. Of course, that's not true. I'm only saying that religion is a means for purpose and community. And probably one of the reasons religion has endured for so long is that it is quite effective in providing those two things. Religion also provides identity for many people even if it's just cultural, which is a very important function.

 

I understand that you don't need or want religion for any of the reasons I listed, but a lot of people do. Just because you personally find no benefit in religion doesn't mean that other people don't find benefit.

[BC1980]

I am not talking about the organized religion abusing its power, although that is an evil aspect of it too. I find the core message of christianity to be evil and destructive. There is a god, he made the world as bad as it is and he enjoys it. You can't do anything about it, as you were a sinner from the beginning and never had a fighting chance. A mere 144'000 of every person that has ever lived will be saved. All the others suffered and died for nothing. It's almost nihilistic. To be clear, I don't subscribe to the idea in the first place. But people who do seem to very readily ignore just how hollow and heartless this worldview is. By making people play some weird mind-lottery (I might just be one of the 144'000) it subdues millions into a life of self-hatred, fear and anxious hopefulness. In my book you can't get much more sick.

 

The 144,000 number is usually seen, by evangelicals, as the number of Jews that will be saved during the tribulation. Jehovah's Witnesses have a more complicated set of beliefs surrounding that number that I don't fully understand. Anyway, if eschatology is your thing, there is a lot of information out there, but I don't really know a lot of Christians who buy into that. I find it difficult enough believe in God, so I'm hardly going to become entrenched in eschatology.

 

Anyway, the part I bolded is actually a part of my struggle that I've talked about here on this thread. I think a lot of other people have the same struggles.

[Steve51]

You are not alone. I never believed in God and yet I would have what most would call a blessed life with everything going my way. I have a 45 year marriage to a bisexual woman who shared her girlfriend with me for 30 years. Never had to worry about money and bought everything I ever wanted.

 

A belief in God requires a suspension of fact and to replace it with faith. I have studied the major religions and attended their services. I even had a close friend who used to be a priest. He still believes, but when we debate he cannot explain certain things and admits that you just have to have faith.

 

If you don't have faith, you don't have it. God's will I guess. You cannot believe in a God no more than you believe in a giant rabbit that made the Universe. Both beliefs cannot be proven true or false. There is no way to prove that something does not exist merely because we cannot see it. As we know, there are many things that exist which we cannot see and are only discovered as man gains more knowledge of the world around him. I never saw an atom and yet I believe it exists.

 

Do not think less of yourself for not believing in something. I work with highly intelligent people and none of us believe in God, or at least a God like other portray him or her. Read about the history of God and you will see that God is created in man's image and not the other way around. Every major religion has God that fits into their culture.

 

Life can be great without believing in God. BTW, after a year in combat, there are Athiest in fox holes.

[Gr8fuln2020]

I think he meant the book of Revelation - you know, horses, Babylon, grasshoppers, creatures with four faces, etc. lol

 

It's the Bible Version of The Wall....

 

I know some people who are so into Revelation they have predicted the antiChrist to be about a dozen different people. Look up John Hagee for an example

 

Ok, my bad.

 

Never the less, the Gospel according to John is VERY different from the other three gospels. Perhaps John is a little out there in his experience(s) compared to the other apostles' accounts. The Book of Revelations is a very controversial book. There is great debate among scholars to the actual timing of the book. Whether it depicts things already past, future or a combination of both.

Edited July 28, 2017 by simpleNfit

[OatsAndHall]

I thought I would make a thread about this ongoing issue in my life because I don't feel comfortable talking to anyone about it. I've always had doubts about the existence of God, but those doubts never seemed to matter until the past few years. To me, the world seems depressing and pointless without the hope of God or an afterlife. I think a lot of this has been spurred on by seeing my parents get older and finding it very depressing that when they die, they may cease to exist and I'll never see them again.

 

Part of me thinks religion is a complete sham that we made up because we are all scared to die. Heck, we spend our entire lives fighting against death. Another part of me feels that the idea that God doesn't exist is just as preposterous. How can the world be so complex without some kind of divine creator? I'm not really interested in debating if God exists or not. I'm looking for people who have similar struggles who would like to share how they cope. I feel like my mind is full of strife on a daily basis, and it's kind of affecting me negatively at this point.

 

I have sought comfort through faith at several points in my life. I had some good experiences but I can't wrap my head around organized religion as I find it attempts to provide too many black and white answers to a very grey question. But, that is also an opinion on what are essentially other people's opinions. So, once again, a very grey area.

 

I am a math teacher so I am left brained and teeter towards what I can prove or disprove in the universe. Agnosticism has helped me to find a middle ground as I have a belief in a power greater than myself but I don't attempt to define what that greater power is or looks like. This has provided me with comfort as I believe that there is plane of existence and purpose beyond this life. This has truly allowed me to enjoy my life, day by day without thinking about the afterlife.

 

Death is an inevitability. It might happen five seconds from now or five decades from now and I have no control over it. As such, I'm not going to spend an iota of my time worrying about what "life" looks like after death. Basically, I click along with the belief that there's something beyond this "mortal coil" and that "something" will be a pleasant surprise.

 

Between now (and now, and now, and now..etc..) and my death, I live by my father's mantra; "live selflessly". I treat people with respect (even if I don't get it in return), I work in a field where I put other people's (primarily my students' and athletes') interests and well-being ahead of my own as much as I can, and just basically try to put a smile on people's faces whenever I can. Some days I follow this mantra better than others but I always keep it in focus.

[umirano]

Yes, religious people have created art, made scientific breakthroughs and shown love and compassion for their fellow man. Heck, some of the strongest atheist and humanist ideas were first formulated by priests. I don't believe religion was causal though. Often enough they had to hide or create their work in secrecy. Many had to claim, against their consciousness, to be religious to blend in and protect themselves and their families.

 

Yes religion provides a cultural identity. But from my point of view this is increasingly becoming a problem. It divides us where we don't have to be divided.

 

It warrants violence against one another over abstract ideas in our heads and clearly poorly understood old books (if they ever were meant to be understood in the first place). Most of these ideas are bad. Commandments on what to eat, how to sleep with our partners and what bits to cut off from our children. To fear the great father and knowing he watches every step we take. It is not what we need to advance all of us.

 

To justify the idea of an afterlife, I guess you need some sort of religion. If you can, make it one that's as violence free as possible. Janism, or maybe buddhism would do?

[Novz]

Please be clear that I am NOT suggesting, in any way, that YOU are wrong in your views, rather, it is not what traditional christians believe. Although many christians will begin offering their own testimony with the guise of universal love and acceptance, you will find, with only slight prodding, that their beliefs become more....'complicated.'

 

 

Yes. I understand what you are trying to tell me. Accepting your words is not difficult to do. I mean, what's not to accept when all you said is right?

 

I really don't feel bothered at all you telling me about the traditional Christian Faith vs mine.

 

?

[TheFinalWord]

Anybody who interprets Revelation literally may be a bit nuts. The fact of the matter is that nobody knows what the hell John was talking about.

 

haha well, to be honest, John really doesn't provide much new information. Basically, all of Revelation can be found in the Old Testament books of the prophets, especially the book of Daniel. What John did was synthesize the OT prophets in the context of Jesus.

[TheFinalWord]

Look up John Hagee for an example

 

Hagee is a good preacher, but misguided on some issues. But who among us has perfect theology, or perfect anything for that matter.

 

I tend to agree with Dr. Hugh Ross, at reasons to believe. An astrophysicist, youngest director of astronomy at Cal Tech, took classes with Carl Sagan. In this clip, he shows the benefits of using concordance (taking data from all scriptures to get an accurate interpretation).

 

[TheFinalWord]

In my estimation, the only thing religion can provide that nothing else can is hope of an afterlife. I think there is no need for religion aside from that idea. I'm not saying that religion is the only means for community and purpose. Of course, that's not true. I'm only saying that religion is a means for purpose and community. And probably one of the reasons religion has endured for so long is that it is quite effective in providing those two things. Religion also provides identity for many people even if it's just cultural, which is a very important function.

 

I understand that you don't need or want religion for any of the reasons I listed, but a lot of people do. Just because you personally find no benefit in religion doesn't mean that other people don't find benefit.

 

Being in the health industry, you probably know the first clinical trial is found in the book of Daniel. So, maybe there's more there than just issues with the afterlife.

 

New England Journal of Medicine: Ancient Clinical Trials

 

I can give more, but unsure if you want to divert the thread...however, interesting how often we hear, yeah a lot of early scientists were Christians, but only because they were a product of that time. Well, here comes Daniel. A prisoner of a foreign king and despite risking his life by refusing the king's food, proposed the first clinical trial. So that doesn't really work here. Proposing the first clinical trial, the same formula, in principal, that we use today. An interesting study is to look at the relationship between Protestant reformation and advancement of the scientific method. Christianity may have some other benefits.

Edited July 29, 2017 by TheFinalWord

[BC1980]

Being in the health industry, you probably know the first clinical trial is found in the book of Daniel. So, maybe there's more there than just issues with the afterlife.

 

New England Journal of Medicine: Ancient Clinical Trials

 

I can give more, but unsure if you want to divert the thread...however, interesting how often we hear, yeah a lot of early scientists were Christians, but only because they were a product of that time. Well, here comes Daniel. A prisoner of a foreign king and despite risking his life by refusing the king's food, proposed the first clinical trial. So that doesn't really work here. Proposing the first clinical trial, the same formula, in principal, that we use today. An interesting study is to look at the relationship between Protestant reformation and advancement of the scientific method. Christianity may have some other benefits.

 

I did now know that! Thank you. I need to read Daniel from start to finish. I am trying to read OT books from start to finish right now. I just started Joshua.

 

I'd be interested in more info. if you have links. I'm fine with the thread going in whatever direction it takes.

Save

[MonkeyLogic]

I think the problem is this. Belief backed by evidence. People can believe in whatever they like! Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, really whatever you want. And they're completely free to do so. And that's great.

 

But. In my opinions, one's beliefs should be based in reality as exposed by evidence. The scary proposition of believing in things because of evidence (i.e. reason) is that we necessarily MUST be open minded. Which means we must be willing to change our beliefs / minds based on evidence. And most people aren't willing to do that. They think changing their minds means they're weak, or stupid. And that is the great injustice.

 

We should be able to change our minds based on evidence without feeling stupid or weak minded.

[TheFinalWord]

I did now know that! Thank you. I need to read Daniel from start to finish. I am trying to read OT books from start to finish right now. I just started Joshua.

 

I'd be interested in more info. if you have links. I'm fine with the thread going in whatever direction it takes.

Save

 

Sure! Will try to post some other interesting things soon. But in terms of the health industry, I thought you might be interested in learning more about BioLogos. BioLogos was founded by Dr. Francis Collins. Unsure if you have heard of him, but he was a key investigator in the human genome project and is current director of the National Institutes of Health (top health research agency in the USA). Collins is a strong proponent of theistic evolution.

 

Edited July 31, 2017 by TheFinalWord

[TheFinalWord]

A video I thought you might like BC1980!

 

[BC1980]

A video I thought you might like BC1980!

 

 

Thank you for thinking of me. I enjoyed the video very much.

[TheFinalWord]

Thank you for thinking of me. I enjoyed the video very much.

 

More than welcome! You are one of the deepest and open-minded thinkers on this forum, so its my pleasure to share anything I come across that you might find helpful through your spiritual journey

 

Best,

TFW

[BC1980]

More than welcome! You are one of the deepest and open-minded thinkers on this forum, so its my pleasure to share anything I come across that you might find helpful through your spiritual journey

 

Best,

TFW

 

That's such a nice thing if you to say. I have enjoyed reading your posts on this thread.

[Introspectivelady]

I struggled with how to account for the existence of the world and my existence in it from my 20's through to age 38. I studied various religions to try to determine which, if any, made any sense. I was skeptical about the Biblical God, but open-minded. As several people have mentioned, there are a lot of things that just don't seem to make sense.

 

But I got supernaturally converted at the age of 38 (in 2001) while reading a Bible prophecy book called The Sign by Robert Van Kampen. I was not convinced or converted by what I was reading in the book. I just happened to be reading that book when I noticed that my thinking had suddenly changed; I suddenly believed that the Bible was true when seconds previously I had had a totally skeptical frame of mind.

 

From that date, I have studied the Bible intently and now, 16 years later, understand what the Bible is talking about. Everything now makes sense. Unless you've been supernaturally reborn, you will have no desire or motivation to study the Bible enough to be able to understand what its really talking about. Instead, a casual reader will read that God ordered so and so to go kill all the people at a certain place and quickly conclude that this can't be the creator God of the universe because it doesn't seem to the casual reader to be very God-like. But you have to know the whole Bible really well to understand why certain things were done at certain times and places.

 

I freely admit that most Christians do not understand the "whole Bible" very well either and are therefore not able to explain these "hard passages" to non-believers looking for answers.

 

Science is not an alternative for God. Science is just a method of observing natural phenomenon and drawing conclusions from the data that is observed. Evolution is touted as an alternative for God, yet it does not explain the complicated, information-rich, clearly-designed universe that we all observe. The vast majority of people throughout human history have recognized that a superior intelligence created and continues to maintain the magnificent physical world that we live in.

[BC1980]

Science is not an alternative for God. Science is just a method of observing natural phenomenon and drawing conclusions from the data that is observed. Evolution is touted as an alternative for God, yet it does not explain the complicated, information-rich, clearly-designed universe that we all observe. The vast majority of people throughout human history have recognized that a superior intelligence created and continues to maintain the magnificent physical world that we live in.

 

Some questions I ask: where did the universe come from, why did it form, what existed before the universe? I've tried to read some on those questions, but they are so far beyond my comprehension.

[umirano]

Some questions I ask: where did the universe come from, why did it form, what existed before the universe? I've tried to read some on those questions, but they are so far beyond my comprehension.

 

These questions are not yet answered conclusively by science. There are some reasonable guesses backed by experimens in particle accelerators. They go along the line of 'universes can jump into existence by virtual particles turning into real particles'. In theory a new universe can form any time anywhere, e.g. Between your head and your keyboard when you read this comment. Supposedly it's a rather rare occurrence. But that's just the best current guess.

 

Other people will tell you it was a bearded guy who did it in six days. His priorities are earth, in a rather vast universe, the middle east, talking snakes, that we don't eat shrimp and what we do in our bedrooms.

 

Your pick.

[umirano]

Science is not an alternative for God. Science is just a method of observing natural phenomenon and drawing conclusions from the data that is observed. Evolution is touted as an alternative for God,

 

 

Actually it's the other way around: Theists (christians, muslims, etc.) reliably fail to understand that the theory of evolution does NOT explain the origin of the universe, but the diversity of life on earth. Evolution deals with biology. Physics and astronomy deal with the universe (particles, atoms, planets, stars, galaxies, the big bang, etc.). Even if evolution would one day be disproved, god would still be a laughably bad 'explanation' for the universe.

 

So yes, evolution explains the diversity of life while physics and astronomy account reasonably for the observable universe and why it is the way it is. Even if for some obscure reason you reject all of physics and astronomy, simply inserting 'god' rightfully does not convince rational people.

 

Genesis is a nice tale without any bearing on reality. The rest in that book (bible) is in a few, but remarkable parts an empty, inhuman, violent, genocidal and infanticidal message of hate and division. It needs to go eventually, along with other religious texts, and it will, for humanity to love one another.

 

yet it does not explain the complicated, information-rich, clearly-designed universe that we all observe.

 

Let's think about your claim in practical terms. Everything that makes my life comfortable and not a constant run from the next natural disaster or predator is man made: Food, shelter, mobility, communication. God didn't send heat to my room, nor does he fill my fridge.

 

I don't observe a designed universe. Did you know that matter, the one that we're made of, represents about 4% only of all mass in the universe? We, and everything we can see is the part of the universe that's irrelevant so to say.

 

The vast majority of people throughout human history have recognized that a superior intelligence created and continues to maintain the magnificent physical world that we live in.

 

Almost all of the universe does not support any carbon based life form. The history of life on earth is one of constant death, mayhem, suffering and extinction. You are claiming this all happens by design? How intelligent is your designer? Like man? Like regular man or like a genius? Or is he or she even all knowing and all powerful on top of that? If it's the latter he, or she sure must be a bit sadistic...

 

Throughout history most people were beaten into submission. Especially to prevent them from voicing ideas that run counter to the interests of the powerful. Admiringly during all ages people have spoken out against the madness of religion instilled on people.

 

We all always want answers and it is very hard for us to accept that some things are not yet perfectly understood. Sometimes we're so desperate that we go to the bin of bad ideas thrown away by smart ancestors and grab one to reactivate it...

[BC1980]

These questions are not yet answered conclusively by science. There are some reasonable guesses backed by experimens in particle accelerators. They go along the line of 'universes can jump into existence by virtual particles turning into real particles'. In theory a new universe can form any time anywhere, e.g. Between your head and your keyboard when you read this comment. Supposedly it's a rather rare occurrence. But that's just the best current guess.

 

Very interesting. Thanks for the info. I immediately thought: where did the virtual particles come from? It's mind boggling to even think about any of that. And on and on it goes.

[umirano]

Very interesting. Thanks for the info.

 

You are welcome.

 

I immediately thought: where did the virtual particles come from? It's mind boggling to even think about any of that. And on and on it goes.

 

Yes, I think colloquially it's referred to as "Why is there anything, as opposed to nothing at all".

 

Wikipedia

 

BBC

 

richarddawkins.net

 

On the latter I found out that Neil De Grasse Tyson wrote a book just about this exact question.

 

We don't know, we may very well never find out. One approach could be: It just is. 'Why' isn't always the best question to ask. Asking 'how' eventually answers more 'why' questions than all the direct 'why' asking. That's my take. I'm as curious as the next person, but unanswered questions should never be an excuse to go for 'comfortable' or 'beautiful' or 'heartwarming' or 'moral' answers of faith (that usually claim to end the conversation).

[BC1980]

Actually it's the other way around: Theists (christians, muslims, etc.) reliably fail to understand that the theory of evolution does NOT explain the origin of the universe, but the diversity of life on earth. Evolution deals with biology. Physics and astronomy deal with the universe (particles, atoms, planets, stars, galaxies, the big bang, etc.). Even if evolution would one day be disproved, god would still be a laughably bad 'explanation' for the universe.

 

So yes, evolution explains the diversity of life while physics and astronomy account reasonably for the observable universe and why it is the way it is. Even if for some obscure reason you reject all of physics and astronomy, simply inserting 'god' rightfully does not convince rational people.

 

Genesis is a nice tale without any bearing on reality. The rest in that book (bible) is in a few, but remarkable parts an empty, inhuman, violent, genocidal and infanticidal message of hate and division. It needs to go eventually, along with other religious texts, and it will, for humanity to love one another.

 

I'm actually reading a book right now called "God's Crime Scene" that talks about the physics behind the creation of the universe. Apologetics is not my cup of tea, but I have to admit that this booki is interesting. Besides, I got it free, so I decided to give it a try.

 

Getting rid of religion would not make humans love one another. For instance, communism has killed millions of people. Religion is really just a vehicle by which people have wielded power and destruction, but religion is not necessary for these things.

 

As far as violence, yes, the OT is violent. That is not in dispute, but the NT is the complete opposite. I don't agree that the majority of the Bible is empty either. There is some really good literature tucked away in the OT. Ecclesiastes, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, ect. Exodus is also a pretty good adventure story.