knabe Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 And if any of that sounded defensive, I apologize. Text is so hard sometimes because tone and nuance can't always be conveyed. Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) Actually, this idea that God should prevent all bad things from happening is not at all Biblical. IF one subscribe to faith that supposedly emulates the Bible, then that means we live in a fallen world, and that means bad things happen. Yes, even to good people. The rain falls on the just and the unjust. Even Jesus - who some seem to think is the ultimate good vibe hippie - says that in this world we will have hardships. And what about others' suffering? If we pray "Lord, please let the hurricane move west of us," what about the people who live to the west? We are very self-centered as a rule. We pray for our sibling to get that heart transplant, but that basically means someone else has to die. I am not sure who has seen Bruce Almighty, but I remember when he opened God's Email (LOVE the YAWEEEE yahoo sound on that lol). He is overwhelmed, so he just answers all prayers "yes." You know, to make everyone happy. Then of course there's an uproar because EVERYONE won the lottery, and so they all got about 16 cents or something. We don't just want a god we can fully understand; we want a god we can control. That isn't how any of this works. Very insightful! A few passages that supplement your post... Collapsing of the tower of Siloam, which killed 18 people... Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.” Ultimately, the bible indicates that we can select our focus. If we decide to focus on the pains of this life, instead of allowing God to use us as he sees fit, we are seeing things from a limited perspective. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life.Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. The apostles actually indicated that suffering for the cause of Christ, was glorifying. --Paul testified before King Agrippa that he wished all would know Christ, but without the chains (he wrote most of the epistles from prison) --The apostles felt humbled to be scourged for Christ...Then they left the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name. --Peter requested to be crucified upside down as he felt unworthy to die the same way as Christ Faith is all about emotions. It's what you feel. It has zero to do with logic/reason. I believe faith is action, despite emotions. For example, since this is a relationship site, I feel an emotional void as I have never been married. I can allow the emotions of bitterness to consume me, and focus on that. Or I can continue to pursue what God has for me to do (action), despite my emotions. Faith without works is dead... ----- You might find this interesting to discuss, since I think you are like me and like to get a bit nerdy with the theology (one of the reasons I like this forum!) How does one receive faith? Well, I believe some of that can be revealed in the Greek meaning of the word pisitis (what we translate as faith)... pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith. Faith is a type of divine persuasion, it is not fully explained through emotion or logic. The root word means persuasion (which is why some of it can be approached through logic), but its origin is divine. It cannot be fully explained rationally, though I believe it can be approached rationally; however, the bible also indicates it cannot be fully actualized through emotion. Which is probably one reason spirituality is so difficult to operationalize in the psychological literature. Often, spirituality is operationalized with a proxy like religiosity or there will be a correlation between positive affect, positive health outcomes, and say belief in God. Faith is often made stronger during periods of extreme emotion and is often tested during times of strong emotion (Christ in Garden of Gethsemane), but it is separate from emotion. However, we do know faith can be actualized through action (volition). The book of James seems pretty adamant about the connection between faith and action. http://biblehub.com/greek/4102.htm Edited July 25, 2017 by TheFinalWord added link 1 Link to post Share on other sites
knabe Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 I think human suffering is, for some people, the biggest obstacle to having faith. Because suffering is...well, terrible. I'm a Christian, and I do not understand why and how people suffer sometimes. But one of the things that I have noticed is how significant the lens through which we view suffering can be. I have two friends who children had heart problems that could have ended their lives. Both kids are grown and fine now. One grew in their faith because God carried them through and gave them strength and provided the right doctors, etc. (their perspective). One resolutely turned from faith because they believed they had been a good Christian, and God shouldn't have allowed their son to have to go through that. I also think where a lot of people trip up when expressing faith is that we Christians tend to forget the Bible is balanced. The same God who said "love your neighbor" also said "be holy as I am holy." The same God who burned Sodom and Gomorrah wrote on the ground until all the angry Pharisees dropped their stones and went home. Most professing Christians tend to focus solely on one end of the spectrum or the other, which, IMO either turns people away from God or gives them a mamby pamby hippie watered down version of who He is. And then, sadly, some Christians are just downright rude and caustic. I know some of those; I used to be related to some of those. They make me cringe. Link to post Share on other sites
Author BC1980 Posted July 26, 2017 Author Share Posted July 26, 2017 I also think where a lot of people trip up when expressing faith is that we Christians tend to forget the Bible is balanced. The same God who said "love your neighbor" also said "be holy as I am holy." The same God who burned Sodom and Gomorrah wrote on the ground until all the angry Pharisees dropped their stones and went home. Most professing Christians tend to focus solely on one end of the spectrum or the other, which, IMO either turns people away from God or gives them a mamby pamby hippie watered down version of who He is. The Bible provides a lot of different answers to the big questions. The authors were people just like us who were grappling with the same issues and offering their two cents. So you end up getting a lot of different views. A lot of cherry picking going on with both sides. You can support practically anything or condemn anything using the Bible. I was thinking about how easily you can make a case for slavery from the Bible, but, thankfully, Christians have decided to let common sense and basic human decency prevail over the Bible in the case of slavery. There's plenty of terrible things that happen in the Bible that are held up as good things, so I certainly don't see it as any type of moral authority. I mean, you can make a case that murder is okay from the Bible, so what does that say about it? Link to post Share on other sites
Author BC1980 Posted July 26, 2017 Author Share Posted July 26, 2017 I believe faith is action, despite emotions. For example, since this is a relationship site, I feel an emotional void as I have never been married. I can allow the emotions of bitterness to consume me, and focus on that. Or I can continue to pursue what God has for me to do (action), despite my emotions. Faith without works is dead... ----- You might find this interesting to discuss, since I think you are like me and like to get a bit nerdy with the theology (one of the reasons I like this forum!) How does one receive faith? Well, I believe some of that can be revealed in the Greek meaning of the word pisitis (what we translate as faith)... pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith. Faith is a type of divine persuasion, it is not fully explained through emotion or logic. The root word means persuasion (which is why some of it can be approached through logic), but its origin is divine. It cannot be fully explained rationally, though I believe it can be approached rationally; however, the bible also indicates it cannot be fully actualized through emotion. Which is probably one reason spirituality is so difficult to operationalize in the psychological literature. Often, spirituality is operationalized with a proxy like religiosity or there will be a correlation between positive affect, positive health outcomes, and say belief in God. Faith is often made stronger during periods of extreme emotion and is often tested during times of strong emotion (Christ in Garden of Gethsemane), but it is separate from emotion. However, we do know faith can be actualized through action (volition). The book of James seems pretty adamant about the connection between faith and action. Strong's Greek: 4102. ?????? (pistis) -- faith, faithfulness I like the book of James. I think Martin Luther wanted to throw it out of the canon right? I do think faith involves action because action is the manifestation of faith. I think if people really and truly believed what's in the Bible, they would act differently. Words are cheap. Save 2 Link to post Share on other sites
umirano Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 My understanding is that christianity is irrelevant as a method to gain knowledge and evil as a value system. It is damaging society (and individuals) and hinders social and scientific progress. Unfortunately it shares these properties with all other religions. Link to post Share on other sites
Justanaverageguy Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 (edited) I like the book of James. I think Martin Luther wanted to throw it out of the canon right? I do think faith involves action because action is the manifestation of faith. I think if people really and truly believed what's in the Bible, they would act differently. Words are cheap. Save Yes I agree. We as humans particularly in the modern scientific age want to understand things - debate things - prove things and so the same happens with the idea of god. And I actually think that is really beneficial as long as it done in a balanced way and doesn't distract us from the real end goal. Personally I think the idea of faith alone is a little weird - and encourages people not to engage the faculties god has en dowered us humans with. Intellect is there for a reason. There is great benefit in understanding how it all works - but - yes at the end of the day, once all the debate and discussion dies down even if you personally have discovered a deep understanding of "how it all works" that still doesn't put it into action. Knowing how it works doesn't make you act the correct way or put love for others in your heart - the mind only takes you so far. As the holy prophet Morpheus from the matrix () put it - There is a difference between knowing the path and walking it. Or if you prefer the book of James - But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. Thoughts - feelings - words - action - all in alignment that's the end goal. What gets even trickier though is that even "action" isn't actually enough. Its the intention of the action. The feeling that goes along with it. Even when we reach that level of always "doing" what god wants - acting in a moral way - helping others - being of service ..... it still requires more then that. It requires you to actually want to do it - not do it out of a sense of moral obligation or fear - but from a sense of deep love for others. That's the real chestnut that's hardest to crack. Feeling what god wants at the same time as doing what god wants. If you reach that point consistently - some religions say you become a saint, others that you are enlightened or alternatively an avatar of god himself. Edited July 27, 2017 by Justanaverageguy 1 Link to post Share on other sites
knabe Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 As the holy prophet Morpheus from the matrix () put it - There is a difference between knowing the path and walking it. Or if you prefer the book of James - But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. Thoughts - feelings - words - action - all in alignment that's the end goal. This is good - doubly good since it references The Matrix I like James for the same reason. "Faith without works is dead." That and the passages on favoritism and the tongue - ouch! OP, I have to say I enjoy hearing your thoughts. You are both skeptical and open, which is very rare. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 I like the book of James. I think Martin Luther wanted to throw it out of the canon right? I do think faith involves action because action is the manifestation of faith. I think if people really and truly believed what's in the Bible, they would act differently. Words are cheap. Save Luther also brewed his own beer, and said that Christians should drink so they fall asleep early and have less time to sin haha I don't know how anyone can't come under conviction reading the book of James, but that's me. James tells people to control their mouth, put faith into action, and how to stop war...he cuts right to the point, which is probably why I read the book so much. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
Author BC1980 Posted July 27, 2017 Author Share Posted July 27, 2017 My understanding is that christianity is irrelevant as a method to gain knowledge and evil as a value system. It is damaging society (and individuals) and hinders social and scientific progress. Unfortunately it shares these properties with all other religions. I think Christianity (and religion in general) is like most everything in life. There is good and bad. There are shades of grey. Of course, history has shown us that any religion can be used to abuse other people. All you need to do is pick up a history textbook, and you can see that. But I do think that there is immense good that religion can do. It provides a sense of purpose, a place for community, and hope of something better after this life. I think all of those things are really good for people. If you are speaking about scientific knowledge, then yes, I'd agree that Christianity is irrelevant. If you are speaking about history, I think it does have some relevance there. It really depends on what kind of history you are talking about. The Bible is really meant to grapple with religious truth. So if you are using the Bible to gain scientific or historic knowledge, you probably won't get very far. I do agree that is has been used to hinder scientific and social progress. I don't think anyone can argue with that. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Novz Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 I'm looking for people who have similar struggles who would like to share how they cope. I feel like my mind is full of strife on a daily basis, and it's kind of affecting me negatively at this point. Hi, BC. I am a believer since grade school. I think my culture and experience helped me build my faith. I may not struggle just like you but I do understand your struggle. I don't feel perfect because of my faith. But I always feel assured of the love God has for all of us. I believe that our imperfection makes us the most ideal object of God's love. God sent Jesus to save us from the sins of this world. We are not worthy but God's grace made us worthy. God loves you despite you not acknowledging His presence yet in your life. The moment you open your heart to Him and open the possibilities of His existence in your life? Little things will start become meaningful. The negativities will be shunned with your own capacity to see beauty in the world full of pointlessness. God exudes beauty in little things. There's plenty of room for us. We are all given equal chance of eveey blessing God can only give us. Don't pressure yourself much into believing but allow yourself to the possibilities of God's healing and dominion in your life. In the book of Ecclesiastes it says there's a time for everything, my own sig and fave chapter, it tells us all that all we go through involves time... a perfect timing. I believe in you and your own perfect time is set in God's calendar. Much hugs from me! 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Gr8fuln2020 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 (edited) Hi, BC. I am a believer since grade school. I think my culture and experience helped me build my faith. I may not struggle just like you but I do understand your struggle. I don't feel perfect because of my faith. But I always feel assured of the love God has for all of us. I believe that our imperfection makes us the most ideal object of God's love. God sent Jesus to save us from the sins of this world. We are not worthy but God's grace made us worthy. God loves you despite you not acknowledging His presence yet in your life. The moment you open your heart to Him and open the possibilities of His existence in your life? Little things will start become meaningful. The negativities will be shunned with your own capacity to see beauty in the world full of pointlessness. God exudes beauty in little things. There's plenty of room for us. We are all given equal chance of eveey blessing God can only give us. Don't pressure yourself much into believing but allow yourself to the possibilities of God's healing and dominion in your life. In the book of Ecclesiastes it says there's a time for everything, my own sig and fave chapter, it tells us all that all we go through involves time... a perfect timing. I believe in you and your own perfect time is set in God's calendar. Much hugs from me! On the surface, your words are very encouraging. I believe some of your beliefs are misleading (depending on how you explain some of your words), if not contradictory. Let me ask you a very simple question....do you consider yourself a universalist? Edited July 28, 2017 by simpleNfit 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Novz Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 On the surface, your words are very encouraging. I believe some of your beliefs are misleading (depending on how you explain some of your words), if not contradictory. Let me ask you a very simple question....do you consider yourself a universalist? Hi, SimpleNFit. Thank you for finding my words encouraging. As for your question, I just read what universalist means and I think I am. I believe that Faith should not be imposed on anyone but an experience one needs to go through in order to build the foundation of faith. Link to post Share on other sites
Gr8fuln2020 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Hi, SimpleNFit. Thank you for finding my words encouraging. As for your question, I just read what universalist means and I think I am. I believe that Faith should not be imposed on anyone but an experience one needs to go through in order to build the foundation of faith. Thanks for your frank response and not getting defensive regarding my initial questioning. You should know, if you don't already, that your views, if 'universalist' are not traditional and would be considered heretical especially by the more conservative christian. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Novz Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Thanks for your frank response and not getting defensive regarding my initial questioning. You should know, if you don't already, that your views, if 'universalist' are not traditional and would be considered heretical especially by the more conservative christian. You are welcome, simpleNFit! I will remember your kind advice. Thank you Link to post Share on other sites
Gr8fuln2020 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 You are welcome, simpleNFit! I will remember your kind advice. Thank you Please be clear that I am NOT suggesting, in any way, that YOU are wrong in your views, rather, it is not what traditional christians believe. Although many christians will begin offering their own testimony with the guise of universal love and acceptance, you will find, with only slight prodding, that their beliefs become more....'complicated.' 1 Link to post Share on other sites
umirano Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 I think Christianity (and religion in general) is like most everything in life. There is good and bad. There are shades of grey. Of course, history has shown us that any religion can be used to abuse other people. I am not talking about the organized religion abusing its power, although that is an evil aspect of it too. I find the core message of christianity to be evil and destructive. There is a god, he made the world as bad as it is and he enjoys it. You can't do anything about it, as you were a sinner from the beginning and never had a fighting chance. A mere 144'000 of every person that has ever lived will be saved. All the others suffered and died for nothing. It's almost nihilistic. To be clear, I don't subscribe to the idea in the first place. But people who do seem to very readily ignore just how hollow and heartless this worldview is. By making people play some weird mind-lottery (I might just be one of the 144'000) it subdues millions into a life of self-hatred, fear and anxious hopefulness. In my book you can't get much more sick. But I do think that there is immense good that religion can do. Like what. What can I do with religion that I can't do without? It provides a sense of purpose I have purpose. No god needed. a place for community Have that too. and hope of something better after this life. I don't have that and I don't need it. I am happy with my life and after it is over will be like before it started. Was it bad before you were born? I do agree that is has been used to hinder scientific and social progress. I don't think anyone can argue with that. The negative effects far outweigh the benefits. Religion contributed nothing. All the individual rights, economic prosperity of the masses and all the scientific progress had to be earned, often for a high blood toll, against religious doctrine. Religions balkanize humanity into separate moral communities and encourage and sometimes obligate their adherents to commit violence against one another. I am talking about the concept of religion, not religious people. I am aware that most religious people (luckily) ignore the vast majority of the commandments and thus mostly create misery only inside themselves. But many make their children suffer (as a consequence of their religious doctrine) and too many make others suffer in order to fulfill their religious duty (by converting rel. doctrine into law, or by waging religious wars). Link to post Share on other sites
knabe Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 I think completely closed-minded condescension, intolerance, and assumption that all those who believe are evil and/or unintelligent is just as dangerous and damaging as religion can be. It boils down to how the individual chooses to practice their belief (or lack thereof). Link to post Share on other sites
Gr8fuln2020 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 I think completely closed-minded condescension, intolerance, and assumption that all those who believe are evil and/or unintelligent is just as dangerous and damaging as religion can be. It boils down to how the individual chooses to practice their belief (or lack thereof). I agree. I am a believer and I learned early on, the most destructive element to the word of God or the teachings of Christ as I accept them, are the very people who sit in the pews every Sunday. You say that it boils down to how the individual chooses to practice. You seem NOT to suggest that believers have some predetermined, prescribed way of behaving or practicing their faith, but is this not the case? How do you propose the individual to practice his faith w/o it becoming only half-truths (even within the confines of religious doctrine) or blatant falsities? Link to post Share on other sites
truthtripper Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 I I'm not sure we have free will at all actually. I think we have control over our actions to some extent but not our beliefs. Certainly not our emotions. And that leads me to believe that beliefs are heavily reliant on emotions. I don't think we have free will either. All thoughts/actions/choices are dictated by past experiences/the subconscious/evolutionary bias/primitive survival instincts. Free will is just an illusion. Link to post Share on other sites
Gr8fuln2020 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 (edited) I am not talking about the organized religion abusing its power, although that is an evil aspect of it too. I find the core message of christianity to be evil and destructive. There is a god, he made the world as bad as it is and he enjoys it. You can't do anything about it, as you were a sinner from the beginning and never had a fighting chance. A mere 144'000 of every person that has ever lived will be saved. All the others suffered and died for nothing. It's almost nihilistic. To be clear, I don't subscribe to the idea in the first place. But people who do seem to very readily ignore just how hollow and heartless this worldview is. By making people play some weird mind-lottery (I might just be one of the 144'000) it subdues millions into a life of self-hatred, fear and anxious hopefulness. In my book you can't get much more sick. Like what. What can I do with religion that I can't do without? I have purpose. No god needed. Have that too. I don't have that and I don't need it. I am happy with my life and after it is over will be like before it started. Was it bad before you were born? The negative effects far outweigh the benefits. Religion contributed nothing. All the individual rights, economic prosperity of the masses and all the scientific progress had to be earned, often for a high blood toll, against religious doctrine. Religions balkanize humanity into separate moral communities and encourage and sometimes obligate their adherents to commit violence against one another. I am talking about the concept of religion, not religious people. I am aware that most religious people (luckily) ignore the vast majority of the commandments and thus mostly create misery only inside themselves. But many make their children suffer (as a consequence of their religious doctrine) and too many make others suffer in order to fulfill their religious duty (by converting rel. doctrine into law, or by waging religious wars). Some good points. I don't believe for a moment that religion has been universally destructive. Some amazing human beings, scientists, clergy, leaders have been transformed and emboldened by their faith and made our lives a little better. All flawed human beings, but many of them challenged the contemporary leadership or societal norms to help us all better define what is meant by ideas such ideas as justice, love, forgiveness. Only a 144,000 being saved is problematic for more literal interpreters to scripture. You rarely, if ever hear of it unless it is in closed doors of a sermon that means to further evoke fear and exclusivity. But, as you point out, there are those who take the numbers literally. I have always found the notion repugnant and indicative of how little faith the faithful possess and/or how much bitterness they have for their fellow man. If anyone to believe that God will only take 144,000 OUT OF BILLIONS(!!!) is absurd and renders God's power, love WEAK and ineffectual. Even if you believe only Christians will know paradise still leaves BILLIONS that will not. That my friends renders the blood of Christ as absolutely and depressingly impotent for the most part and further reveals a God who is both willing to allow the vast majority of his creation to succumb and be lost AND/OR incapable of preventing the Adversary from taking the upper hand in a world that HE himself is master of. I said this before. I find believers to be woefully incapable or reconciling the real world with their own belief system. So, many make it up as they go, ignore, or simply separate themselves from society that challenges them. As for ignoring the ten commandments, well, many justify that by claiming that they are not capable of adhering to them anyway, but are conveniently spared b/c they 'believe in the saving grace of God.' Edited July 28, 2017 by simpleNfit 3 Link to post Share on other sites
GorillaTheater Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Anybody who interprets Revelation literally may be a bit nuts. The fact of the matter is that nobody knows what the hell John was talking about. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Gr8fuln2020 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Anybody who interprets Revelation literally may be a bit nuts. The fact of the matter is that nobody knows what the hell John was talking about. Blasphemer! Heretic! Un-clean! You are doomed to eternal damnation for those words! Just kidding...but there is a touch of seriousness and sadness. In my early days of the church, I would have been yelling these very things to you. Link to post Share on other sites
GorillaTheater Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Blasphemer! Heretic! Un-clean! You are doomed to eternal damnation for those words! Just kidding...but there is a touch of seriousness and sadness. In my early days of the church, I would have been yelling these very things to you. But you still couldn't have explained what the hell John was talking about. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Gr8fuln2020 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 But you still couldn't have explained what the hell John was talking about. But I sure as heck would have tried or deflected. Of all the gospels, The Gospel of John is the most interestingly esoteric in nature. Link to post Share on other sites
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