Want to believe in God but can't

[Chardonnay Renée]

Being in the direct presence of the creator of the universe. That, itself, is the reward and true end goal of why we were created. The only people who would say "meh" to this are those who don't know God. These people would rather sit in front of their surround sound entertainment system watching the Kardashians.

 

Do you include all atheists/agnostics in this awesome generalisation? Because, to say that anyone who doesn't know God is a Kardashian watcher (or an idiot by implication), is a rather offensive generalisation.

 

I'm an educated and intelligent person who doesn't know God because I don't have faith in the Bible's (or the Quran/Torah's) depiction of God, nor its teachings through the Book of Genesis about how the world was created.

 

If you want to believe every word of the Bible, that's fine. I'm not going to judge you. If you have faith in the Bible, that's your choice. But extend others the same courtesy please, by not judging and generalising.

[Justanaverageguy]

What does the afterlife offer that real life doesn't?

 

Being in the direct presence of the creator of the universe. That, itself, is the reward and true end goal of why we were created. The only people who would say "meh" to this are those who don't know God. These people would rather sit in front of their surround sound entertainment system watching the Kardashians.

 

Hmmm but actually you already get that in everyday life - no need to die and go to heaven to gain that privilege

 

Because you already are in the direct presence of the creator of the universe every moment of every day - for the creator IS the very universe itself - hiding right in front of you here in plain sight all along. This is the inside joke of life - the secret so many sages and mystics and holy men finally realized. That the universe quite literally is god - and YOU - yes little old you - are a direct part of God - not separated from it.

 

Those holy men finally saw - and experienced directly - that they had been blinded from seeing the forest - by all those blasted trees - of which they were actually one. As one particularly enlightened holy man put it we are - Eternally begotten - one in being with the father.

The trick to life - not death - is not just learning that secret - but understanding how to embody it. How to make that connection from the higher self (god) to the lower self (little old me) and "experience" your real divine nature as part of your waking life and bring forth that beautiful energy into your small part of the world. When you do this you also acknowledge and see that all people (even the ones that watch the Kardashians or think God is a similar concept to the tooth fairy) are actually a small part of the divine just like you are regardless of whether they know it or not.

 

If you want to see gods face - look at the person beside you - that's God hiding in plain sight. And if you want to make God smile or be of service to him - then simply help that person beside you in some small way and try and try to make them smile.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Justanaverageguy

[aurelius99]

Hmmm but actually you already get that in everyday life - no need to die and go to heaven to gain that privilege

 

Unfortunately the idea you're presenting isn't Biblical. Yes, we possess the Holy Spirit (assuming we are even true followers), but this is different than being in the direct presence of God.

 

If what I say is incorrect, then:

 

1) Why does Moses ask God in Exodus to see his face but was denied? You would think Moses already knew god. Evidently knowing god and possessing his spirit is different than being in his direct presence.

 

2) Why does Revelation say that in the new heaven and new earth, God will now live in the city with his people? Clearly the physical reference here is different than the spiritual presence of god as we have today.

[BC1980]

Unfortunately the idea you're presenting isn't Biblical. Yes, we possess the Holy Spirit (assuming we are even true followers), but this is different than being in the direct presence of God.

 

If what I say is incorrect, then:

 

1) Why does Moses ask God in Exodus to see his face but was denied? You would think Moses already knew god. Evidently knowing god and possessing his spirit is different than being in his direct presence.

 

2) Why does Revelation say that in the new heaven and new earth, God will now live in the city with his people? Clearly the physical reference here is different than the spiritual presence of god as we have today.

 

You're assuming that the Bible is verbatim from God. That's an assumption you can't prove. Even if you could prove it, what we know of God is still textual and must be filtered through each individual's understanding. On top of that, you'd also have to assume that no other texts exist that speak to God. So you're really just left with a bunch of opinions about things that no one really understands.

[aurelius99]

You're assuming that the Bible is verbatim from God. That's an assumption you can't prove. Even if you could prove it, what we know of God is still textual and must be filtered through each individual's understanding. On top of that, you'd also have to assume that no other texts exist that speak to God. So you're really just left with a bunch of opinions about things that no one really understands.

 

The Bible can be proven from the standpoint that all of its prophecies have occurred in real time/space.

 

For example, the prophecies concerning the birth of Christ in Isaiah were written 600 years before Christ was born. This is agreed upon even by secular historians.

 

And FWIW the previous poster wasn't talking about whether the Bible can be proven or not. He was merely talking about what it means to be in god's presence. Anyone talking about such topics I would assume already believes in the Bible anyway.

Edited July 3, 2017 by aurelius99

[BC1980]

The Bible can be proven from the standpoint that all of its prophecies have occurred in real time/space.

 

For example, the prophecies concerning the birth of Christ in Isaiah were written 600 years before Christ was born. This is agreed upon even by secular historians.

 

And FWIW the previous poster wasn't talking about whether the Bible can be proven or not. He was merely talking about what it means to be in god's presence. Anyone talking about such topics I would assume already believes in the Bible anyway.

 

I guess we'll have to disagree on whether or not prophecies in the Bible can be proven. That is a lengthy discussion for a different thread. At the very least, you would still have to circle back to the question of the information in the NT being accurate, which, again, much of it is not provable. Anyway, I'm studied all of that a great deal and am not interested in discussing it here in any great detail.

 

With regards to your statements about Moses and Revelation, you have to assume that the Bible is verbatim from God to claim anyone can be correct/incorrect about being in the presence of God.

[Justanaverageguy]

Unfortunately the idea you're presenting isn't Biblical. Yes, we possess the Holy Spirit (assuming we are even true followers), but this is different than being in the direct presence of God.

 

If what I say is incorrect, then:

 

1) Why does Moses ask God in Exodus to see his face but was denied? You would think Moses already knew god. Evidently knowing god and possessing his spirit is different than being in his direct presence.

 

2) Why does Revelation say that in the new heaven and new earth, God will now live in the city with his people? Clearly the physical reference here is different than the spiritual presence of god as we have today.

 

So perhaps we are talking semantics here. I guess it really depends on what you mean in his presence. Because we are always in his presence as we are perpetually linked to him by spirit. Currently this occurs at a distance because honestly thats all we are able to cope with currently. We are not refined enough to cope with the full force of his energy at present but as we prove capable of handling more we ascend closer to him. So in this regard you are indeed correct - we are able to move closer then we are at present.

 

My understanding and interpretation came after a spiritual awakening. A direct experience of the holy spirit. So whilst I do take things from the bible (and some other sources) most of my interpretation comes from what you would call personal revelation. I was directly shown things to make me understand how it works and directly felt the blissful awakening experience the spirit provides as part of that. I try to pass on what I was shown. If it doesn't connect for you thats fine - your free to follow your own path.

 

Also I don't say this to boast like I'm better then someone because I'm really really not. I had my experience as an act of grace whilst undergoing great hardship due to some very bad sinful decisions in my life. It was not being touched by the spirit as a reward for good behavior .... but more as I was being rescued from the consequences of bad behavior.

 

The way I was shown that god works is recursive levels of creation where energy is passed from the top level source down to the lower levels beneath it. God being the over arching totality of everything who provides the source energy\spirit which goes down the chain to ascended deities - like Jesus symbolically represented in our earthly plane as the sun - who then passes energy onto us.

 

Symbolicly this is represented through what is called a fractal. Recursive self similar shapes that repeat themselves at smaller and smaller scales. Or to put it in gods words we are quite literally "made in his image". The most common form of fractal and one that Jesus repeatedly used to describe our relative relationship both with him and with god was the branching structure of a tree. With God being the overall tree and us being the smaller branches that grow from the tree.

 

As he said in John 15:5-

I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you

 

God is the tree - we are the smaller branches. Or alternatively using human biology you could say god is the entire body and you are a single cell within that body. The amount of spiritual energy you are passed in commensurate with your ability to use it responsibly and for the benefit of the overall organism - God. You move up the chain so to speak and receive more as you prove worthy of receiving it.

 

Quick intro to fractals if your interested -

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2017 by Justanaverageguy

[aurelius99]

I guess we'll have to disagree on whether or not prophecies in the Bible can be proven. That is a lengthy discussion for a different thread. At the very least, you would still have to circle back to the question of the information in the NT being accurate, which, again, much of it is not provable. Anyway, I'm studied all of that a great deal and am not interested in discussing it here in any great detail.

 

Have you read the writings of Isaac Newton on this subject? According to his contemporaries, he was "obsessed" with biblical prophecies. In particular he studied the prophecies about the restoration of Israel. At the time of Newtons life, there was no Israel. There hadn't been for 1700 years. But Newton understood that they WOULD return at some point because the Bible predicted it. Can you imagine what people were telling this decorated scientist when they found out he believed a nation who was wiped out 17 centuries ago would return? I'm sure there was laughter. Well...it never occurred in his lifetime. Flash forward to the year 1948. Guess what happened?

[BC1980]

Have you read the writings of Isaac Newton on this subject? According to his contemporaries, he was "obsessed" with biblical prophecies. In particular he studied the prophecies about the restoration of Israel. At the time of Newtons life, there was no Israel. There hadn't been for 1700 years. But Newton understood that they WOULD return at some point because the Bible predicted it. Can you imagine what people were telling this decorated scientist when they found out he believed a nation who was wiped out 17 centuries ago would return? I'm sure there was laughter. Well...it never occurred in his lifetime. Flash forward to the year 1948. Guess what happened?

 

I haven't read anything that Newton wrote on this, but it sounds interesting. I think I will go look some stuff up.

[BC1980]

My understanding and interpretation came after a spiritual awakening. A direct experience of the holy spirit. So whilst I do take things from the bible (and some other sources) most of my interpretation comes from what you would call personal revelation. I was directly shown things to make me understand how it works and directly felt the blissful awakening experience the spirit provides as part of that. I try to pass on what I was shown. If it doesn't connect for you thats fine - your free to follow your own path.

 

Thank you for sharing your story. I find these types of stories very interesting. Also, the idea that our personal experiences can inform our ideas about God just as much as the Bible. When I look at nature, I feel like God must be real. I love gardening, and I think of something so simple like a seed. You plant it, and it knows exactly what to do, and it turns into a magnificent flower. I find that simply amazing, and I wonder how any of that could happen by chance.

 

I also wonder how something came from nothing. That idea is too heavy for me to tease out and even begin to comprehend. What was here before the universe began?

[endlessabyss]

I thought I would make a thread about this ongoing issue in my life because I don't feel comfortable talking to anyone about it. I've always had doubts about the existence of God, but those doubts never seemed to matter until the past few years. To me, the world seems depressing and pointless without the hope of God or an afterlife. I think a lot of this has been spurred on by seeing my parents get older and finding it very depressing that when they die, they may cease to exist and I'll never see them again.

 

Part of me thinks religion is a complete sham that we made up because we are all scared to die. Heck, we spend our entire lives fighting against death. Another part of me feels that the idea that God doesn't exist is just as preposterous. How can the world be so complex without some kind of divine creator? I'm not really interested in debating if God exists or not. I'm looking for people who have similar struggles who would like to share how they cope. I feel like my mind is full of strife on a daily basis, and it's kind of affecting me negatively at this point.

 

I have these thoughts all the time. I would identify myself as a non-practicing Catholic, but I would say I'm not very religious, and more philosophical. My views on God have evolved a great deal over the years. I don't think I buy into the concept of the Christian God anymore, but I do still believe in a Creator or Intelligence that had its hand in creating what we experience today.

 

Like you said, the idea of random evolution is a very nonsensical idea to me, and the sheer complexities and intricacies of life point to something more than mutations and adaptation.

[aurelius99]

I have these thoughts all the time. I would identify myself as a non-practicing Catholic, but I would say I'm not very religious, and more philosophical. My views on God have evolved a great deal over the years. I don't think I buy into the concept of the Christian God anymore, but I do still believe in a Creator or Intelligence that had its hand in creating what we experience today.

 

Like you said, the idea of random evolution is a very nonsensical idea to me, and the sheer complexities and intricacies of life point to something more than mutations and adaptation.

 

Would you agree that, if there is a real God (which you seem to believe), then we cannot rely on our own perception or feelings when it comes to knowing this God? And furthermore, that knowing the traits about this God must come from an external source (revelation) which must be accepted regardless of whether it seems strange or wrong based on whatever developmental stage we are at in life?

[BC1980]

Would you agree that, if there is a real God (which you seem to believe), then we cannot rely on our own perception or feelings when it comes to knowing this God? And furthermore, that knowing the traits about this God must come from an external source (revelation) which must be accepted regardless of whether it seems strange or wrong based on whatever developmental stage we are at in life?

 

This is a difficult question. On one hand, I would say that we certainly cannot understand God if we are relying on our own perceptions. We have a limited and finite understanding of things, and all of our views are colored in one way or another. Colored by our experiences and, I think at least, colored by biological processes we can't explain.

 

The problem with knowing God through external revelation is that it's not really external because our understanding out anything is always going to be filtered through our mind. So even if there is an external event that happens like Paul meetings Jesus, that event is still filtered through Paul himself. It also starts to bring up the question: how important are individual experiences vs. scripture?

 

What do you think about predestination? I've actually come to believe, more and more, that we only have free will to an extent.

[BC1980]

I have these thoughts all the time. I would identify myself as a non-practicing Catholic, but I would say I'm not very religious, and more philosophical. My views on God have evolved a great deal over the years. I don't think I buy into the concept of the Christian God anymore, but I do still believe in a Creator or Intelligence that had its hand in creating what we experience today.

 

Like you said, the idea of random evolution is a very nonsensical idea to me, and the sheer complexities and intricacies of life point to something more than mutations and adaptation.

 

Thanks for sharing. I take the view that maybe the Christian idea of God is the correct one. I mean, you can't prove any of it, so it's really just a leap of faith in the end. I don't buy into the idea that anyone who isn't a Christian is going to burn in hell, ect. That ideology is cruel and rife with problems.

 

The idea that there is a God is just as preposterous as the idea that there is no God. At least, that's my feeling on it. The idea that this all just happened by random chance, and our consciousness ceases to exist when we die is insane to me. I find it difficult to believe. But it also seems insane to believe that there is some kind of mythical land where we all meet up after we die.

[aurelius99]

This is a difficult question. On one hand, I would say that we certainly cannot understand God if we are relying on our own perceptions. We have a limited and finite understanding of things, and all of our views are colored in one way or another. Colored by our experiences and, I think at least, colored by biological processes we can't explain.

 

The problem with knowing God through external revelation is that it's not really external because our understanding out anything is always going to be filtered through our mind. So even if there is an external event that happens like Paul meetings Jesus, that event is still filtered through Paul himself. It also starts to bring up the question: how important are individual experiences vs. scripture?

 

Great post. I believe this is why each person can have their own view of god (in a way), yet it's the same God. However, before anyone misunderstands me, I'm NOT supporting a universalist idea that all views is god are valid. I'm merely saying that, if you and me both know God (the true God), your experience with him might be slightly different than mine. You might have experienced his mercy more than I have, while I might have experienced his justice/holiness more than you. It's similar to how, if we both had a common friend, our perception of him would vary--but within a fixed range. If our friend had red hair, it would be wrong to say it was black. But you might perceive that he has a happy expression most of the time while I view him as fake. It's the same person but we perceive him differently.

 

So it is with God. Granted, it's possible to not know him at all. The Bible would say that most people DONT know him. But within those who DO know him, you'll find slight variation. Just look at how the 4 gospels were written by men who knew Christ, yet each focused on a different aspect of his personage: one on his kingship, another on his humility and human lineage, for example. Each were true but were brought out by different people. I guess this is what it means for god to be "living". He doesn't fit a formula.

 

What do you think about predestination? I've actually come to believe, more and more, that we only have free will to an extent.

 

The Bible supports both. There are verses which clearly support predestination. There are verses which clearly support free will. Since I take the Bible to be inerrant, I've concluded that our human logic is the problem and cannot fathom contradictory principles such as this. I don't want to get into quantum mechanics, but this new science at least can help us appreciate the possibility.

[Gr8fuln2020]

Great post. I believe this is why each person can have their own view of god (in a way), yet it's the same God. However, before anyone misunderstands me, I'm NOT supporting a universalist idea that all views is god are valid. I'm merely saying that, if you and me both know God (the true God), your experience with him might be slightly different than mine. You might have experienced his mercy more than I have, while I might have experienced his justice/holiness more than you. It's similar to how, if we both had a common friend, our perception of him would vary--but within a fixed range. If our friend had red hair, it would be wrong to say it was black. But you might perceive that he has a happy expression most of the time while I view him as fake. It's the same person but we perceive him differently.

 

So it is with God. Granted, it's possible to not know him at all. The Bible would say that most people DONT know him. But within those who DO know him, you'll find slight variation. Just look at how the 4 gospels were written by men who knew Christ, yet each focused on a different aspect of his personage: one on his kingship, another on his humility and human lineage, for example. Each were true but were brought out by different people. I guess this is what it means for god to be "living". He doesn't fit a formula.

 

 

 

The Bible supports both. There are verses which clearly support predestination. There are verses which clearly support free will. Since I take the Bible to be inerrant, I've concluded that our human logic is the problem and cannot fathom contradictory principles such as this. I don't want to get into quantum mechanics, but this new science at least can help us appreciate the possibility.

 

My apologies, but your post is one of agonizing contradictions. I find too many believers to have such contradictory views.

 

1. Your emphasis on "true God" immediately precludes the notion that even subtle differences are acceptable. As it is well known, the 'differences' are unilaterally determined by individual denominations who are known to undermine other denominations based on whatever criteria they choose.

 

2. Human logic is the root cause according to you. Interesting. I would like you to explain, w/o using scripture how that is.

 

3. The most undermining element of faith is not the non-believers, rather the self-professed believers who, by hypocrisy and inconsistency, undermine the 'church.'

 

4. Which is it? Pre-destination or free will. YOU CANNOT, with the existence of an omnipotent/omniscient diety, have it both ways. This explanation, by believers, is frequently arbitrary and non-sensical.

 

5. You believe the bible to be in-errant. I have yet to meet a human being who lived like it. Many who believed it, but none that lived like it.

 

6. Your assertion that the gospels depict differing accounts or experiences is well known. Some would say, contradictory in some ways. For the sake of argument we agree, so how, know these differing accounts and know to all christians, does this explain why christians are SO widely different in their views on how to serve God? Do the gospel present clear guidelines or do they introduce opportunity for uncertainty? There are scriptures that CLEARLY indicate that good works is a part of christian life, yet, there are those who would say that good works have nothing to do with salvation. This is simply ONE of too many uncertainties that bring christendom at this point of polarity in some ways.

 

By the way, I believe in God. I find professed believers to be the most frustrating. I believe in God and you believe in God. How can we have two different perspectives as we do? Will YOU argue that your perception is the true one and mine is false?

Edited July 4, 2017 by simpleNfit

[aurelius99]

My apologies, but your post is one of agonizing contradictions. I find too many believers to have such contradictory views.

 

1. Your emphasis on "true God" immediately precludes the notion that even subtle differences are acceptable. As it is well known, the 'differences' are unilaterally determined by individual denominations who are known to undermine other denominations based on whatever criteria they choose.

 

2. Human logic is the root cause according to you. Interesting. I would like you to explain, w/o using scripture how that is.

 

3. The most undermining element of faith is not the non-believers, rather the self-professed believers who, by hypocrisy and inconsistency, undermine the 'church.'

 

4. Which is it? Pre-destination or free will. YOU CANNOT, with the existence of an omnipotent/omniscient diety, have it both ways. This explanation, by believers, is frequently arbitrary and non-sensical.

 

5. You believe the bible to be in-errant. I have yet to meet a human being who lived like it. Many who believed it, but none that lived like it.

 

6. Your assertion that the gospels depict differing accounts or experiences is well known. Some would say, contradictory in some ways. For the sake of argument we agree, so how, know these differing accounts and know to all christians, does this explain why christians are SO widely different in their views on how to serve God? Do the gospel present clear guidelines or do they introduce opportunity for uncertainty? There are scriptures that CLEARLY indicate that good works is a part of christian life, yet, there are those who would say that good works have nothing to do with salvation. This is simply ONE of too many uncertainties that bring christendom at this point of polarity in some ways.

 

By the way, I believe in God. I find professed believers to be the most frustrating. I believe in God and you believe in God. How can we have two different perspectives as we do? Will YOU argue that your perception is the true one and mine is false?

 

Please answer me, roughly, how many hours or months or years have you sincerely spent researching or pondering these topics? I like to ask this in general before knowing if a person is worth engaging. Even God disregards those whose hearts don't seek him.

[endlessabyss]

Would you agree that, if there is a real God (which you seem to believe), then we cannot rely on our own perception or feelings when it comes to knowing this God?

 

Yes, I'd say, from my own personal experience, that I can infer God through inductive reasoning or by observation through the senses. To try and apply any traits to God seems out of my capabilities, due to my inability to comprehend God. One of my favorite analogies was the human looking down on the ant, and the any not having the mental faculties to be able to comprehend the human.

 

 

And furthermore, that knowing the traits about this God must come from an external source (revelation) which must be accepted regardless of whether it seems strange or wrong based on whatever developmental stage we are at in life?

 

Revelation seems to come to me through creation; more so than through scripture.

 

I guess I am not sure what you are implying when you mention revelation. Thomas Paine's viewpoint seems to stick with me the most contemporarily. I guess you could say revelation comes through personal experience as well; maybe I could attribute past instances to this due to certain feelings I experienced in given situations, but all that seems to be subjective and not very accurate.

[shellybing]

I thought I would make a thread about this ongoing issue in my life because I don't feel comfortable talking to anyone about it. I've always had doubts about the existence of God, but those doubts never seemed to matter until the past few years. To me, the world seems depressing and pointless without the hope of God or an afterlife. I think a lot of this has been spurred on by seeing my parents get older and finding it very depressing that when they die, they may cease to exist and I'll never see them again.

 

Part of me thinks religion is a complete sham that we made up because we are all scared to die. Heck, we spend our entire lives fighting against death. Another part of me feels that the idea that God doesn't exist is just as preposterous. How can the world be so complex without some kind of divine creator? I'm not really interested in debating if God exists or not. I'm looking for people who have similar struggles who would like to share how they cope. I feel like my mind is full of strife on a daily basis, and it's kind of affecting me negatively at this point.

 

I became an Atheist during a time in my life, much like you are going through now.

 

I am not here to convert you to Atheism, but I can tell you about my experiences and what I have learned.

 

I was a devout Christian for a long time in my life. I grew up in a small town where people were just meant to believe in God.

 

I had a hard life. I was always full of strife too.

 

A few major things happened in my life that triggered me to start looking at things a bit more in depth. So after much heart ache and anger I stopped believing in God. I found all of the answers in science when I opened my mind and my heart to things that I would not have seen before. This was all due to some major life changes that were going on. I left my husband in turn.

 

I have never been happier. My eyes have been opened to a brighter world than there ever was before. I am proudly an Atheist for 6 years now, and even in my thirties, I am hopeful for my future. I know someday I will die, and now I know and understand that heaven does not exist. That gives me the freedom to live my life as each day is my last, and allows me to not feel guilty about choices I make. I don't have to feel guilty about some things I would be feeling guilty for if I were still Christian.

 

How to cope? That is up to you. You can cope how ever you find peace and solace. I like to make art and draw. At one point I was playing in the roller derby to let off steam and aggression. I am the kind of person who likes to stay productive. Sometimes I sleep it off, sometimes I have an hour long hot shower. I started by making a decision though. I made a decision and I stuck to it. I decided one day that I can't be on the fence anymore so I am going to act now. I educated myself, I read and re-read my bible (and have now read 3 versions of the christian bible, and I am working on reading the religious texts of other religions too). And I came to a conclusion that God did not exist.

And I stuck with it. I have stuck with that for 7 years now.

 

You know what else? After I decided that God wasn't going to help me - I started helping myself more and more. I still learn new things every day because I stopped praying for help and started doing things with my own two hands. I have even learned to work on my own car (something you would be hard pressed to find any woman doing, let along a devout christian woman underneath a car with grease on her face) I wear the shoes of a woman and a man now and I love it. I have no gender roles. I do it all. If it needs to be done, I do it. I'd like some help sometimes, but it is better than being stuck in a house making food for a bunch of men by myself while they drink beer (because I like drinking and laughing too).

 

I am also obliged to say that my eyes have been opened to forming the best possible relationships I can form. I live each day as it was my last, and it has made my bonds stronger than ever with people I love. I hold them dear because I know one day they will be gone.

 

 

Live deliberately and authentically. Be who you are in your own heart and mind, and it will all come to you naturally.

[Justanaverageguy]

Great post. I believe this is why each person can have their own view of god (in a way), yet it's the same God. However, before anyone misunderstands me, I'm NOT supporting a universalist idea that all views is god are valid. I'm merely saying that, if you and me both know God (the true God), your experience with him might be slightly different than mine. ...... within those who DO know him, you'll find slight variation. I guess this is what it means for god to be "living". He doesn't fit a formula.

 

Your emphasis on "true God" immediately precludes the notion that even subtle differences are acceptable. As it is well known, the 'differences' are unilaterally determined by individual denominations who are known to undermine other denominations based on whatever criteria they choose.

...

I believe in God and you believe in God. How can we have two different perspectives as we do? Will YOU argue that your perception is the true one and mine is false?

 

So here is where I see great great benefit in exposing yourself to more then one teaching. Because while the christian faith has some really good foundational teachings ..... it falls short in other areas. Mainly because simply the way the teachings have been interpreted and taught by the church. I agree with Einsteins view on the Christian\Judaic personal god in this regard ..... the way it tries to paint god with very specific finite details is a childlike notion. A caricature almost which really doesn't even try to understand the nature of an "infinite" and "eternal" creator. My recommendation would be to expose yourself to the Vedic teachings - not Hinduism - more the original vedic teachings that predates that on which much of both Hinduism and Budhism were based.

 

You can look at the differences in approach in an "east" vs "west" way. The west values finite and definitive knowledge - logic and reason - direct study and measurement of facts, figures, temperatures to differentiate things etc. We can use this study of facts figures to understand the physical world, our bodies etc so we can plan or make changes accordingly. It also values "physical proof" over "intuitive understanding" of the way things happen. In spiritual terms this view is also reflected with western religion. "Gods" in the west (Judaism\Christianity\Muslim) being defined very precisely - with specific details which are proclaimed as the only truth and defended (eg: world created in x,y,z many days, Jesus is the only son of god, Mohammed is the real prophet etc etc). For a specific view of god to be "correct" all others must be wrong because "god" or shall we say the "devil" is quite literally in the details To the west - specifics and details are everything - you cannot have a god with different details - they are mutually exclusive - thus I can't be a christian and also follow another faith.

 

The eastern approach to spirituality focuses on universal principles - or what I would call wisdom - it builds on the western approach but tries to see past only the finite details to universal laws that can be applied across different disciplines of life. To not only see superficial differences - but to see deeper then that - to the spiritual layer. To see common patterns of energy between things.

 

"Brahman" the energy force of the universe (kind of a combination of what the west call God \ Holy Spirit) is seen as the core energy pattern from which all other things flow and manifests into a beautiful explosion of different forms. They think details and the physical forms Brahman manifests as are temporary. Whilst important - focusing too much on these - or believing if you just dig deep enough and break things down into the right finite form you will find the answer or see Gods face - is kind of infantile. They believe understanding the infinite "pattern" of life is the answer rather then the different ways it manifests into finite details. So in spiritual terms this is again reflected. The eastern tradition see "GOD" or "Brahman" as a pattern of energy - always changing and appearing in different forms. It can be recognized and understood through the pattern of its behavior. To "see god" is simply to see something which is perfectly in tune with the highest form of this pattern which they see as beautiful, joyful, blissful and filled with love for all things.

 

The goal of spirituality is thus to live in tune with the gods\universe\brahmans "way of being". To behave how god does in all aspects of your life. This is the eastern interpretation of what is meant by "a second coming" what New age foke refer to as "christ consciousness". To personally become a living embodiment of that energy or as Yoda would say - to become one with the force

 

Thus in spiritual terms anything that follows this pattern of behavior \ energy is seen as a direct expression of the divine. Be that a sunflower, Jesus or even just a man happily helping an old lady up the stairs. This is what GOD looks like. His appearance is constantly changing - but it is the behavior that is always the same. The idea is to stop trying to "see" god and instead start try to "be" god. Literally. Believe me when I tell you that will feel the difference and you will get to know god through direct experience if you start doing this consistently

Edited July 6, 2017 by Justanaverageguy

[aurelius99]

Justanaverageguy,

 

Yes I've read quite a bit of literature of other religions, including but not limited to:

 

Quran

Siddartha (Buddhism)

Torah (Judaism)

New Testament

Wisdom of Lao Tse (Taoism)

 

I must admit, aside from Bible, the most amazing book is Wisdom of Lao Tse. As I read it, I couldn't find any contradictions in what it says compared to the Bible. It's actually a very biblical book. It emphasizes living in humility, emptiness, uselessness, and avoiding the traps of money, war, and even self promotion.

 

The way I see it, "all truth is God's truth". If you want to call something Ximboriadysocrassianism, and if it contains TRUTH, then I'm all for it and I'll call myself one. However, with that being said, not all true ideas are the highest level of truth. Taoism contains basic principles of truth but it doesn't get fulfilled with specifics in time and space--as Christianity does, for example, by the life of Christ. Even Christ said the Old Testament, while true, is not the fullest fulfillment of the truth. It satisfied for the time (since it was all true), but it did not become fully realized until Christ and the New Testament.

[hammyy2k]

Hum... I don't believe in God, and I never have.

 

I tried mightily to believe once - I was going through very difficult personal problems and really wanted to believe. I felt it would make everything more tolerable.

 

But in the end I failed, I could explain every "sign" away with logic. I have never been one to have blind Faith, and I simply couldn't muster it.

 

I am sure the eventual passing of my parents will test me (I am such a daddy's girl - it's going to ruin me when he goes).

 

Unlike you, I do not see the world as a dark place, I am a positive person, and see an immense amount of beauty in the world.

 

For me, science can explain the vast majority of the natural world - it's the suffering and darkness that makes me further question how a "supreme being" could allow so much horror.

 

I am often reminded of a 80's song:

 

https://play.google.com/music/preview/Tre2i5on5xr2m7lacw7rcruzr2e?lyrics=1&utm_source=google&utm_medium=search&utm_campaign=lyrics&pcampaignid=kp-lyrics

 

Dear God, hope you get the letter ......

But all the people that you made in your image

See them starving on their feet

'Cause they don't get enough to eat from God

I can't believe in you....

 

We all need a big reduction in amount of tears

And all the people that you made in your image

See them fighting in the street

'Cause they can't make opinions meet about God....

 

I won't believe in heaven or hell

No saints, no sinners, no devil as well

No pearly gates, no thorny crown

You're always letting us humans down

The wars you bring, the babes you drown

Those lost at sea and never found

And it's the same the whole world 'round

The hurt I see helps to compound

The Father, Son and Holy Ghost

Is just somebody's unholy hoax

And if you're up there you'll perceive

That my heart's here upon my sleeve

If there's one thing I don't believe in

 

It's you

Dear God

 

i believe in science, i also believe in god due to science

 

i dont believe the existence of holy ghost etc etc, i do believe in existence of god

 

basic religious concepts are all same, if you are good, you will bear good things after life

 

if you are bad, you will suffer due to it

 

all religions believe in that

 

at times when im lonely and feel that people are not being good from heart but misusing me, i remember God and how he is watching all poor souls like evil ones

 

even science says, every action has an equal reaction, i belief that every act we do in life will have the same kind of reaction

[aurelius99]

i believe in science, i also believe in god due to science

 

i dont believe the existence of holy ghost etc etc, i do believe in existence of god

 

basic religious concepts are all same, if you are good, you will bear good things after life

 

if you are bad, you will suffer due to it

 

all religions believe in that

 

at times when im lonely and feel that people are not being good from heart but misusing me, i remember God and how he is watching all poor souls like evil ones

 

even science says, every action has an equal reaction, i belief that every act we do in life will have the same kind of reaction

 

You believe in science? Science is literally observation, nothing more. How can you believe in observation? That really makes no sense. If what you mean are the ideas BEHIND science, such as the theories of evolution and things like medicine, etc, then you believe in PHILOSOPHIES and ENGINEERING which are associated with science--but don't confuse these with science itself. Once you get into the realm of hypothesizing you are leaning the realm of pure science. Science is actually very neutral and itself proves almost nothing that we are looking for.

[Timshel]

You believe in science? Science is literally observation, nothing more. How can you believe in observation? That really makes no sense. If what you mean are the ideas BEHIND science, such as the theories of evolution and things like medicine, etc, then you believe in PHILOSOPHIES and ENGINEERING which are associated with science--but don't confuse these with science itself. Once you get into the realm of hypothesizing you are leaning the realm of pure science. Science is actually very neutral and itself proves almost nothing that we are looking for.

 

What do you mean by this aurelius99?

 

The first rule of science is hypothesis and theory. The first rule of religion/belief in God is faith.

[coolheadal]

All these are spiritual energies falls under different names: Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, Life Force, Great Spirit, RA, KI, QI, Chi, Shakti, Mana, kundalini, Ase Ire. GOD help me channel his life force energy into those I help as a Healer. I don't see why we all can't understand all these different energy levels and faith use to use them. I just raised my kundalini after 90 days wait. Thus my mind is overwhelm with current events and other things. But no one should knock down GOD might, GOD powers, GOD Energy who is the Supreme being of all of his creation us, because of different cultures belief!

Edited July 9, 2017 by coolheadal