Leftover questions

[Mrs. John Adams]

Generally speaking, I have seen a pattern over the years when reading these threads from BS's regarding conversations/discussions that they have with their WW's. Usually in the following months from a vehement denial of any particular fact or detail, that fact or detail, what ever was being vehemently denied usually seems to have occurred.

It seems like vehement denials occur in an effort to bluff the questioning BS and get them to shut down and cease that line of questioning.

I am getting to the point where anytime I see a "vehement denial", I wonder how long and to what extent of investigation will take the BS to uncover that lie.

 

Her response to changing the fundamental nature of the marriage into an open marriage in the manner that you describe, usually is typical of a long term wayward involve with PA's.

 

Either she has been in a long term affair with someone prior to this recent series of events, with this latest group of online guys, or she is a serial cheater with a wide variety of short term partners and ONS's. But, generally speaking, this only seems to happen with waywards who have been involved with PA's for at least 3 years.

I have noticed over the years when reading these different threads, for some reason, 3 years seems to be the magic number for this.

 

I say that... with the obvious exception, that this does not sound like or appear to be the occasional "make things even and fair "Hall Pass"" that some people try in order to poorly attempt to alleviate guilt and even out the scales. Even in those cases, it still involves a PA. But, usually a completely different conversation and set of issues than what appears to be in this particular case. More often than not, those things just cause more problems and pain than they solve or resolve.

 

I am encouraged by the progress that you two seem to be starting to make.

I really want to be rooting for both of you to be really starting to march down the long road of reconciliation and recovery.

 

But, its like anything, if you don't know what the real problem is and what you really both need to overcome, what ever solutions and work you do is like sweeping the porch and watering the yard when the house is on fire.

Or, going to the emergency room to see the doctor about getting some ointment for an annoying rash, and, maybe a few stitches for a cut on the arm, while ignoring the gunshot wound to the chest. The other stuff, is manageable, and perhaps easier, but, it isn't going to really fix the major problem or rescue the situation.

 

So we are to assume that you find the topic of infidelity interesting and you frequent forums to investigate and make assumptions and judgements about strangers....but you have not truly experinced infidelity.

 

We thank you for your expertise and judgements

 

Some of us...truly have experienced the devastation that infidelity brings....and we are here to actually assist others in the quest for peace and healing rather than for entertainment or research.

[QuietDan]

Mrs. John Adams,

Point Taken,

From wayward to another.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Mrs. John Adams,

Point Taken,

From wayward to another.

 

got it

 

then we all stand in judgement together my friend

[QuietDan]

I have only had one affair....and god knows i have made so many mistakes....and i wrestled for a very long time...

 

....So I think it takes a special kind of wayward...paired with a special kind of betrayed...and if the pairing is not right...you have a divorced couple....and if the pairing is right...you have a successful reconciliation.....and if the pairing is really screwed up...you have a couple who simply exists.

 

Been through a lot of this, experienced a lot of this, done a lot of this. Did a few things right, did a lot of wrong things. Made a lot of mistakes, missed a great opportunity or two to take care of some long standing issues. Wasn't transparent until I was ready to be transparent, then she didn't want to know anymore, I respected her wishes. I respect where she is at. If she ever wants to know more, I will tell her. Would be easier on me if I did. But as it is, 10+ years since D-Day, don't rightly remember what day, what week, what month. I remember her fury, I remember her pain, I remember her torment.

I live every day with guilt, regret, remorse. Haven't forgiven myself one bit. I judge myself more harshly now than I did then. I keep my self loathing to myself, it would pain her if she knew how much I still live with this.

I never realized or appreciate what she was even talking about when she use to mention dealing with triggers.... I hate that I missed that... I was somewhat oblivious, ignorant, and when I did have a bit of a clue, didn't know what or how to deal with it. Hide, stay low, keep quite, what I did best...

Made too many mistakes, missed too many opportunities to be there for her.

....

Letting her off easy...

ain't good for either one of you in the long run...

ain't good for the both of you in the long run.....

It started long before she knew, knows, it ended long after she knew, knows...

I wish, want, hope for no more secrets between us.

I hate that about our marriage.

I would tell all in a heart beat if she would let me.

But... she has told me she doesn't, wouldn't want to know anymore, she doesn't think she could take it....

So.. I take my lead from her.

Still occasionally, testing the waters from time to time to see if that standing policy has changed.

Working every day to make amends to be the best spouse that I am capable of being. Wishing I could be better, with that my goal each day to be better than the last.

So, the point is, even if your spouse is unrepentant, without regret or remorse post D-Day for days, weeks, months....

 

In time it is still possible and does happen that such a wayward will eventually learn to have regret and experience remorse.

So... those willing to persevere and hope against the odds,

In time, a heart can change.

I thank everyday my wife has given me this undeserved gift of reconciliation.

I deserve it far less than most who get and lose the gift, or have never been given the opportunity to have it.

[Superchicken]

 

 

On the other hand why are you so certain that there was a PA? I have not read very many threads here and have a tendency towards optimism and trust. Interrogating my WW has not been fun or easy for me. Please let me know what you feel I am missing.

 

A couple of things why I come to this conclusion.

1 - That's been stated a few times now already, that she wishes you to get an OW. Oh S N A P !.

 

 

2 - Time. Or over time, doing what they do, brings more confidence, and determination not to get caught. This is the worst mistake they make in my view. Because they slip up, and it only takes ONE slipup.

 

 

She's been doing this for some time now, and with time, the feelings grow exponential, and the want for attention grows along with it.

This is the time when planning comes in, and organization.

Steps are followed through, one after the other over and over before its put into play.

Put yourself in the same situation. If you (Or any man) can hold off the urge to have a PA, then you should be a priest or a monk. I fail miserably.

I have the self control of a White pointer Shark in a feeding frenzy.

 

 

Take the view, and actions that she has had a PA, and at best, if its not true, then you can feel better, and move on fixing things.

However the other way around, and you will again be hit with the pain of infidelity when you find out she's done the mumbo..

A double whamee

 

 

Ted.

[Unforseen]

If the men were not local, my bet is that there was no PA. I think she is being mostly truthful with you.

 

I have that working in my favor at least. One several states away, one in Canada, and one in Australia. My WW didn't make any 'business trips' or go out of town alone. I realize one of them could have come here. Seems like a slim chance and in the little bit of electronic information I did recover there was no mention at all of meeting up.

 

But that's it. I either live with hopeful or get a poly scheduled.

[BluesPower]

Everyone has already said...

 

MAKE HER TAKE A POLY. And listen, you think that putting your head in the sand it better for you in the long run.

 

Dude, it is not. If you do that, you will never recover.

 

Again, being weak with a woman is a complete turn off to them.

 

You need to know what you are really dealing with. If it was all EA's fine, bad enough, if it was more, you NEED TO KNOW...

[Unforseen]

 

Usually, this means one of two things.

One: common reason for a wife to suggest to husband to get OW is that she is not able to physically have sex for medical/psychological reasons for years with no foreseeable change possible.

Two: She is having and affair or is engaged in sexual activity with other men.

 

Your wife would be fairly unique if she suggested you to get another woman to have sex with given the type of activities that you have described that she has been with so far.

 

As a general rule of thumb, just not that common or likely for women to suggest that her husband seek the comfort of having a PA with another woman if she is in a monogamous relationship with you.

Back to that this is a big "Red" flag.

Maybe in fact, she hasn't had a PA.

 

However, so far, as I recall, for the most part, if you haven't proved it, she doesn't admit it. She only seems to slowly acknowledge what you have proven. Since you have no proof of a PA, I doubt she would ever volunteer that information or admit to it.

 

When I first questioned WW about why I shoul have an OW her response was that she felt guilty and inadequate. Between a miscarriage, pregnancy and cervical cancer her libido was shot. Sex was a big issue between us and she had for a time weaponized it as a way to get back at me. I was fairly selfish and not understanding of her libido issues and spent a lot of time not treating her very well. Her response was to stop having sex with me to make sure I didn't get what I wanted. This was maybe 8-10 years ago or so.

 

Once I grew up enough to understand her issues and we both worked together to find ways to work around them things leveled out. I did not see the red flag for what it was when she started dealing with these other people. There were drastic changes in her libido ranging from complete shutdown as she started flirting with the OMs and then on to nearly insatiable once she started sexting. Her timeline of when she met them and started flirting lines up very neatly with differences in how she was treating me. Go figure.

 

In asking her again about her idea of an OW her response now was that she felt guilty that she was trading pictures and she thought it would offer the potential for her to have a PA and maybe even step things up to include my OW or a OM with us. Those ideas aren't completely repulsive but I let her know that at this point I do not feel like I could share her. She admitted that she currently like the idea in fantasy only. She lost interest in making it a reality once the A were ended. I am comfortable believing her on that part at least.

[harrybrown]

Hope she will offer to take and pay for the polly.

 

I think you need that for your marriage.

[Unforseen]

I'll third what QD said.

 

And what BP suggested is necessary: poly

 

The more I think about it the more I can see this is the only choice I have for peace of mind. I know myself. I will pick at all these issues or any inconsistency until it drives me and my WW crazy.

 

It is backwards and doesn't make much real sense but I feel bad for even bringing it up. It's like I'm worried that asking my WW to take a poly is the same thing as looking her in the eyes and telling her that I don't trust her. Yet I have done that already many times during the course of this mess. Maybe it's because it's the difference between words and actions.

 

Either way it is miserable that it has come to this and I hate the fact that she has put me in this position. A lifetime of doubt and questioning and mistrust would be worse. There's no way around that.

 

Aside from the obvious questions to verify what she has so far told me are there any other questions I should have asked?

[BluesPower]

Yes there are a ton...

 

Some examples:

 

1) Do you love your husband? That's a good one.

 

2) Have you been physically intimate in any way with any other man or woman since you have been DATING your husband?

 

3) Have you been truthful with your husband about every detail of your affair?

 

4) Do you want to be married to your husband?

 

 

5) Do you have plans to leave your marriage?

 

 

And on and on...

 

 

Put some time into it. And if she does not want to take the poly, start divorce proceedings...

[road]

The more I think about it the more I can see this is the only choice I have for peace of mind. I know myself. I will pick at all these issues or any inconsistency until it drives me and my WW crazy.

 

It is backwards and doesn't make much real sense but I feel bad for even bringing it up. It's like I'm worried that asking my WW to take a poly is the same thing as looking her in the eyes and telling her that I don't trust her. Yet I have done that already many times during the course of this mess. Maybe it's because it's the difference between words and actions.

 

Either way it is miserable that it has come to this and I hate the fact that she has put me in this position. A lifetime of doubt and questioning and mistrust would be worse. There's no way around that.

 

Aside from the obvious questions to verify what she has so far told me are there any other questions I should have asked?

 

Meet with the tester without the WW before the test for help

to frame questions for WW's session.

[Unforseen]

Those are good ideas. There are a few local places that do testing including one that advertises specifically for infidelity and similar marriage issues. Seems a good a place to start as any.

 

I am truly hopeful that we can get through this and come out the other side even better than before. The MC, while not helping much on the A issues did help us address many other problems that were detrimental to our marriage. We are communicating very well these days and are able to express issues to each other and deal with things in a much better way than we ever used to.

 

Without a doubt I wish the MC had been more useful in addressing the A bit we are working on that now. We spent a good couple of hours talking tonight and I did bring up the polygraph test. She doesn't like the idea and is reluctant, but she did agree to participate. Even that means a lot to me. I have a good amount of information to develop further questions from. Since all this started and I have made it clear to her that the don't ask don't tell philosophy is not going to work for me she has done pretty well at answering me.

 

There are some things that she presents as being hazy or that she is unsure of. Some of it is understandable such as exact wording of shared messages or precise dates. But what concerns me is that she still is suppressing some things. What she has told me is that she fears that she did worse things with the OMs than she correctly remembers. Somehow my explanation that she has already ripped out my heart, destroyed my spirit, and smashed my manhood under her heel was not reassuring to her. I'm not sure what she could have done that was worse than what I already know or imangined.

 

Maybe she did a lot of this out of spite specifically to hurt me. Maybe she was involved with someone I know or trust. Maybe it was more than pictures and there were also videos. Maybe there was a meet up and PA. I guess we'll find out soon. My mind movies and the workings of my imagination will certainly assist in common gupnwith questions. At this point concealing anything would only be hurting her. There is a big sense of relief in having decided upon a course of action and knowing what I will do based on various outcomes. If she is lying then I will be filling for divorce. I have made that compeltely clear to her. If she is telling the truth then we will continue the hard work of R and continue our growth together.

[Unforseen]

I have only had one affair....and god knows i have made so many mistakes....and i wrestled for a very long time after i confessed that i should have kept my damn mouth shut.

 

But all these years later....I know i did the right thing...I gave him the chance to kick me out...I gave him the chance to make a decision that he felt was best for him. It was truly the least I could do...since i took away his decisons and his choices by cheating.

 

I have read so many arguements for and against disclosing...and i guess ultimately...it is a personal choice...but i think it is also very revealing about the wayward.

 

If you have a wayward who chooses to not tell...you probably have a wayward who can live with lies...and thats a bit frightening for betrayeds....because what else are they hiding? and do they truly understand what remorse is? and what happens if you eventually find out?

 

If you have a wayward who spills their guts...you probably have a person who is more likely to eventually understand remorse....and while they shared what they have done ...they also hurt you and you know about their betrayal....a huge thing to overcome

 

Who has better odds of a successful reconciliation? I dont know...becasue i think there is probably a whole lot of folks who cheat and never tell...and sometimes they cheat over and over again.

 

in addition..there are different kinds of betrayed spouses. There are those who wish they did not know....there are those who put their head in the sand and live their life and are content to pretend everything is ok.

 

So I think it takes a special kind of wayward...paired with a special kind of betrayed...and if the pairing is not right...you have a divorced couple....and if the pairing is right...you have a successful reconciliation.....and if the pairing is really screwed up...you have a couple who simply exists.

 

I am really starting to believe that I am in a good pairing. Since D day my WW has been very reluctant to say anything about what she had been up to. I would get excuses and deflection that she didn't think I needed to know or that we shouldn't focus on the past and should only work on moving forwards or my personal favorite that she needed time to process things before she could talk about them. Well I gave her 18 months before I was tearing myself up trying to figure things out and understand what happened on my own.

 

That's when, with the help of this forum, I was introduced to Joesephs letter. Finally with that I could put words together to explain my needs. Her responses started to change after that. Instead of needing time now she was too ashamed and guilty for what she had done and the idea of talking about it would cause panic attacks and admissions that she felt like hurting herself because of how badly she hurt me. Now I had something I could work with.

 

The common answer here seems to be that a WS should be interrogated nearly mercilessly until the BS is satisfied. But it has also been admitted that many things said here are not a one size fits all. My WW responded to me when I treated her with love and tenderness and absolute care and compassion for her feelings and emotionnal state. With that approach and a gentle explanation of my needs, goals, and boundaries she started to open up and answer my questions as openly as she could. Yes, there are still some concerns and things she has not been very clear on but she has agreed to a polygraph to help ease my mind.

 

For those that think that this was a weak approach and that I will lose any respect that my WW may have had for me please answer this question: which shows more strength; to run roughshod over someone and take what you need because it is your right or to deal lovingly and with compassion with someone who has so utterly and completely devestated you and hurt you?

 

In my situation, my pairing, my answer was the correct one and the one that worked. It is not for everyone. I left myself completely open to being savaged and hurt all over again. For my WW it was worth the risk. Her behavior and growing openness to me has been showing me that she is not taking my gift of R lightly.

[BluesPower]

I am really starting to believe that I am in a good pairing. Since D day my WW has been very reluctant to say anything about what she had been up to. I would get excuses and deflection that she didn't think I needed to know or that we shouldn't focus on the past and should only work on moving forwards or my personal favorite that she needed time to process things before she could talk about them. Well I gave her 18 months before I was tearing myself up trying to figure things out and understand what happened on my own.

 

That's when, with the help of this forum, I was introduced to Joesephs letter. Finally with that I could put words together to explain my needs. Her responses started to change after that. Instead of needing time now she was too ashamed and guilty for what she had done and the idea of talking about it would cause panic attacks and admissions that she felt like hurting herself because of how badly she hurt me. Now I had something I could work with.

 

The common answer here seems to be that a WS should be interrogated nearly mercilessly until the BS is satisfied. But it has also been admitted that many things said here are not a one size fits all. My WW responded to me when I treated her with love and tenderness and absolute care and compassion for her feelings and emotionnal state. With that approach and a gentle explanation of my needs, goals, and boundaries she started to open up and answer my questions as openly as she could. Yes, there are still some concerns and things she has not been very clear on but she has agreed to a polygraph to help ease my mind.

 

For those that think that this was a weak approach and that I will lose any respect that my WW may have had for me please answer this question: which shows more strength; to run roughshod over someone and take what you need because it is your right or to deal lovingly and with compassion with someone who has so utterly and completely devestated you and hurt you?

 

In my situation, my pairing, my answer was the correct one and the one that worked. It is not for everyone. I left myself completely open to being savaged and hurt all over again. For my WW it was worth the risk. Her behavior and growing openness to me has been showing me that she is not taking my gift of R lightly.

 

Buddy, maybe you are right. But frankly I think you are going to be shocked by what you find out with the polygraph.

 

I suspect that she thinks you will not go through with it and that she will be able to dodge this. I am sure that she will have a panic attack that will be very convincing on the day of.

 

Further, some things that you need to know:

 

1) Do not allude to what any of the questions might be, in any way.

 

2) Schedule the poly and DO NOT TELL HER WHEN IT IS.

 

3) When it is time to leave for the appointment, that is when you tell her.

 

4) If she makes a parking lot confession, continue with the poly, there is more to find out.

 

Having said that, maybe your gentle approach will work over time, but frankly I think she has been gas lighting you the entire time about everything.

 

Now that you are bringing it to a head, you will start to find out what has really been going on.

 

I wish you luck and I hope my suspicions are completely wrong...

[oldlion]

For what it's worth I totally agree with you. Many who have been badly hurt forget that in a lot of cases "you can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar." I wish you well.

[Jersey born raised]

From what I have read check the poly admin's training very carefully. I seen suggested those coming out of the miltary services are the best. Questions must be very black and white. So do you love your spouse is worthless along with do you wish the adultery never took place. Both beg the question why. So did you ever kiss, engage in ... Is good. Speak with the administrator.

 

Be prepared for blow back. So know your state laws regarding asset division, custody and child support. When the refusal comes calmly seque into divorce discussion by saying you understand the refusal, so now we need to discuss our divorce, what are your thoughts. Have a game plan ready.

 

Again, do do calmly.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I am really starting to believe that I am in a good pairing. Since D day my WW has been very reluctant to say anything about what she had been up to. I would get excuses and deflection that she didn't think I needed to know or that we shouldn't focus on the past and should only work on moving forwards or my personal favorite that she needed time to process things before she could talk about them. Well I gave her 18 months before I was tearing myself up trying to figure things out and understand what happened on my own.

 

That's when, with the help of this forum, I was introduced to Joesephs letter. Finally with that I could put words together to explain my needs. Her responses started to change after that. Instead of needing time now she was too ashamed and guilty for what she had done and the idea of talking about it would cause panic attacks and admissions that she felt like hurting herself because of how badly she hurt me. Now I had something I could work with.

 

The common answer here seems to be that a WS should be interrogated nearly mercilessly until the BS is satisfied. But it has also been admitted that many things said here are not a one size fits all. My WW responded to me when I treated her with love and tenderness and absolute care and compassion for her feelings and emotionnal state. With that approach and a gentle explanation of my needs, goals, and boundaries she started to open up and answer my questions as openly as she could. Yes, there are still some concerns and things she has not been very clear on but she has agreed to a polygraph to help ease my mind.

 

For those that think that this was a weak approach and that I will lose any respect that my WW may have had for me please answer this question: which shows more strength; to run roughshod over someone and take what you need because it is your right or to deal lovingly and with compassion with someone who has so utterly and completely devestated you and hurt you?

 

In my situation, my pairing, my answer was the correct one and the one that worked. It is not for everyone. I left myself completely open to being savaged and hurt all over again. For my WW it was worth the risk. Her behavior and growing openness to me has been showing me that she is not taking my gift of R lightly.

 

I was broken...had my husband not treated me with compassion and kindness...I would have left.

 

He was so loving and so compassionate toward me...that it broke my heart

 

how could he be like this when i had been so terribly ugly and hurt him so badly

 

The answer was love....he still loved me...as unlovable as i was...he still loved me

 

That speaks volumes.

 

We never declare that we did things right...we say we did things right for us...and the stars aligned for us and God blessed us.

 

The scars remain...i cannot remove them...but i love him so very much...and i am so grateful to him...which makes me love him even more. It has not been easy...there are still things we talk about that sting...the difference is...we know that we are in this together...and neither one is giviing up on the other one.

[Unforseen]

I saw, in another thread, a reference to my thread and interest in an update. So here it goes.

 

Do I know everything that my WW had done.

 

No, but I know most of what I wanted to find out. I didn't really want to know exact details of every conversation or the exact exchanges and stories my WW was sharing with the OMs. I wanted to know how explicit the conversations were and I got those answers. What remains as unanswered are some of the more difficult questions such as why did she chose to get involved and why did she continue to stay involved after I discovered one OM. We have the most basic framework for the answers: because at that time that was what she wanted to do.

 

Well great, it doesn't get much more obvious than that or much more confusing. Between her IC and our MC we have narrowed it down a little more. She felt that I did not love her. She felt that I wanted to get rid of her. She did not think she could bring those concerns to me because I would belittle her or ridicule her or at worst, prove her right and abandon her. In her shame and desire for acceptance and because she enjoyed the attention she was receiving, she moved the relationship from her being pursued to one where she was an active participant and started the A. She exchanged sexting and eventually pictures for the false and selfishly motivated attention and acceptance of the OM. This in some measure satisfied her need for acceptance and to feel desired by someone. One of the sad things about this is that when I discovered this OM, it was about a week after she had sent the pictures. Once the OM had received his 'prize' he more or less ignored any further attempts she made to contact him. My W now sees how much she risked and how much damage she caused only to be used and discarded. It angered me and hurt me and caused me to be sad for her to see her recognize exactly what she was trading for those fabricated feelings of acceptance. She is struggling with her shame for her actions.

 

At the same time she also had a purely EA going on. She gave him respect and energy and emotional intimacy in exchange for reciprocation of the emotional intimacy and once again a feeling of acceptance. This one took a little longer to dissipate. My initial shock and panic sent me into an effort to save the marriage at all costs. My initial shame at being cheated on had me giving in to anything she said so that she wouldn't leave me. And she said she needed to keep in touch with the EA OM. I let that continue for those reasons. But as she started moving towards remorse and I started (finally) learning how to meet her emotional needs my W was putting her energy more towards me and less towards the EA OM. About 3 months after D day he showed his true colors and went from pleading to manipulative to attempting intimidation in an effort to keep getting the respect and emotional devotion of my W. She voluntarily blocked him that same day. It was very difficult not to laugh in her face and proclaim joy that he had proven that my statements about how fake he was were accurate.

 

The third OM is more of a mystery but that is somewhat understandable. She started up with him just before d day #1 at about the same time as the A with OM #1 was fading. She knew how she could keep getting the attention she wanted and was no longer getting from OM#1. What she is confused about is why she kept things going with OM#3 after i discovered OM#1. She is still deeply trapped in shame about that and all she can think of is self deprecating reasons such as: she's a horrible selfish person, she's stupid, she's an idiot, and so on. She has not been able to get through the shame of what she did yet to be able to figure out the reasons why. The working theory I have is that after d day #1 she knew we were finished and saw no reason to stop what she was doing. She was enjoying the attention and as far as she was concerned at the time she had nothing else to lose. But even then she was only offering him a minimal effort in exchange for his attention. When I discovered OM3 I scanned over the history of their chats amd saw that she hadn't bothered to take any new pictures despite the requests from OM3. She only sent the same few that she had sent to OM1.

 

Did I have her take a polygraph? In the end I did not. I do thank the people that suggested it and can understand why it would be necessary. Since I delivered my version of Joseph's letter to her she has responded with the openness and honesty that I demanded. That conversation is still ongoing as I need to be reminded of some information and sometimes try to get clarity as I match up absolutes from some digital records I was able to find with my memories and what she has told me. If I have even a small twinge of a feeling that anything is amiss I will not hesitate to make the poly test happen. I approached her with the idea after it was suggested here. I asked her if she would take the test. She responded researching polygraph tests, explaining her reservations, and that she did not like the idea but said she would do it if I wanted her to. Her acceptance in conjunction with her actions and changes in behavior since the A allow me to feel safe not having her take the test at this time.

 

It's a silly example and yet it meant a lot to me. During allergy season I will occasionally get a stye on my eyelid. When she noticed I was getting one she stopped what she was doing and got up and prepared a hot compress for me. Before the A she had never paid that much attention to me and had never shown that degree of caring for me. Don't get me wrong, I wasn't exactly husband of the year myself.

 

Maybe I'm sticking my head in the sand or up somewhere else, but eventually I came to the conclusion that if my true desire was for R I would have to make a decision to draw a little line and say to myself that I will trust her this much and see how it goes. That first point I decided on was to try trusting that what she has been telling me about her actions she is being honest and not attempting to hide things anymore. With the study I have been doing in regards to shame as part of my IC I have begun to understand why she was whitewashing and minimalizing and holding things back. At first she told me that I didn't need to know. The A was bad enough and knowing the details would just make me focus only on the negative and would slow or stop any healing. The next excuse was that she needed time to process things and I was strung along with that. Over a year later when my lack of facts became detrimental to my ability to move on get over things and heal I found this site in my frantic search for answers. The combine wisdom and experience here lead me to Joseph's letter which became the catalyst for this next stage in our R.

 

I took a gentler and more compassionate approach to my wife's affair because I knew that was how she would best respond. That does not mean that I discounted or ignored other advice that I was offered. I think some things were meant to shock me out of the honeymoon like trance that was part of the reconnection between my W and I with a cold slap of reality or potential realities. Other advice helped me question my motives and seemingly blind faith I was putting in the woman that brutalized my trust and faith in her. All of that was useful and in fact helped me start a few difficult discussions with my W regarding her A. Did she still have any leftover feelings or attachments, how could she treat me and herself like this and yet still say she always has loved me, what did you do for or with them that you have not done with me. Many times the discussions were painful yet they were also useful as we learned to reconnect and talk and listen to eachother. As I am learning to empathize with her in the sadness she feels, as she learns to be patient with me for the anger I still feel.

 

It is still a work in progress but it is progressing. I have a great deal of hope that we will be successful and that she will grow into the respectful wife that I deserve while I grow into being the loving husband that she deserves. In these things we will strive together as I dearly wish we had done from the beginning.

[BluesPower]

While I appreciate you detailed post...

 

I am going to disagree with some of your assumptions and make some predictions.

 

You post is very reasoned out, makes perfect sense, and it is highly logical. Over all it really sounds great.

 

And yes, I and many here continue to believe that you are sticking your head in the sand.

 

Further, I believe many things that you will shrug off until the truth actually comes out.

 

1) I believe that you have only the smallest amount of information about what your wife was up to.

 

2) I believe that for sure that she had a physical affair 8 years ago and that she has been gas lighting you from the very beginning. There are simply too many red flags there that you seem to want to ignore.

 

3) I also believe that there are affairs that you do not know about, some physical possibly.

 

4) I believe that when and if you actually find out the whole truth, you will be more devastated than you have been but you will be too weak to divorce her and find a better woman.

 

Of course I could be completely wrong in every way, and I hope that I am.

 

Unfortunately, so far I have not been wrong once that I am aware of, but I hope I am this time...

[Unforseen]

While I appreciate you detailed post...

 

I am going to disagree with some of your assumptions and make some predictions.

 

You post is very reasoned out, makes perfect sense, and it is highly logical. Over all it really sounds great.

 

And yes, I and many here continue to believe that you are sticking your head in the sand.

 

Further, I believe many things that you will shrug off until the truth actually comes out.

 

1) I believe that you have only the smallest amount of information about what your wife was up to.

I will disagree here. I managed to find a backup of her phone that was made not long after everything happened. I used an extraction software to see what was on the backup. While there were only fragments of the deleted chats to the OMs what was available did not contradict what she has most recently told me. There were some descrapncies from what she initially told me but I had expected that.

2) I believe that for sure that she had a physical affair 8 years ago and that she has been gas lighting you from the very beginning. There are simply too many red flags there that you seem to want to ignore.

Like I said. Her alibi was supported by her friend. She was at her friends house (female) instead of in class like she said.

3) I also believe that there are affairs that you do not know about, some physical possibly.

So far there was only one that I was not initially aware of and that one was at a flirty stage and had not yet progressed further. It was certainly inappropriate and I'm not kidding myself into thinking it would never have progressed had I not caught her.

4) I believe that when and if you actually find out the whole truth, you will be more devastated than you have been but you will be too weak to divorce her and find a better woman.

This I can full heartedly disagree with. That line I have cleanly drawn and the grace period I offered to make me aware of any other affairs or things she has kept from me I is just about over on that matter. You could certainly argue that I was over generous in allowing a few months between delivering my version of the letter and the end of this grace period to come clean with everything, but what can I say? Her actions and changes for the R and her struggles against shame bought her that time.

Of course I could be completely wrong in every way, and I hope that I am.

 

Unfortunately, so far I have not been wrong once that I am aware of, but I hope I am this time...

 

I'll make a deal with you BluesPower. I will, for obvious reasons, stick with the hope that you are wrong. If not, I will be man enough to drop a new thread here and graciously accept any amount of "I told you so"s that seem appropriate. Aside from that we will keep working the R and doing our best to improve our marriage. I do appreciate what you've had to say and will respond in kind with whatever little bits of my experience I can give back to this community.

[understand50]

Unforseen,

 

You have to remember, and really take this to heart. YOU have the best information on what went on compared to us. YOU know your wife better than any of us can or will. Be confident in your conclusions. Many here will always think the worst, and always push divorce. It is up to you to take what yo need from us, and ignore what does not work , or a poster that is just stuck on their point of view. They have their reality, and are sure of themselves, but we all must acknowledge, we are all different, and no matter the story, the OP's story is is not what happened to us. Look, for myself, if you came back and stated that your wife had gone physical, it would not have surprised, but it also is not surprising she has not. I think you are doing well in reconciliation. What many BS's here do not get, is that they have things to do, and showing compassion, while holding them responsible is one of the things they need to do. We had a thread that discussed what a BS should do in reconciliation. It may be a good read for you.

 

Things a BS should do:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/576217-there-responsibilities-bs-reconciliation

 

I am going to add my first thoughts:

 

What must a BS do to make the reconciliation work?

 

1) Forgive, and not hold over the WS their action, unless by their present actions, their past must be readdressed. IE, I do not bring up my wife past ONS, and over spending, unless it is germane to the conversation or situation.

 

2) Really decide if you are going to reconcile and give it 100%. Once your "gift" is given you should be prepared for all the hard work that it implies.

 

3) Accept when and if the WS is working and changing, and while verifying, give them benefit of the doubt when warranted.

 

4) Approach the marriage as equals on issues and problems that are not from the affair. In other words, at some point, future problems must be dealt with and the high ground will need to be abandoned.

 

 

This is assuming, and this can be a big assumption, that the WS is a former WS, and is doing everything that is asked for and accepted to reconcile. In other words, a false reconciliation is not happening.

 

I am going to add to that you must be compassionate to their pain and hurt. The point is, that a spouse that is showing and getting, and it can be a life long process, remorse will have pain and hurt as well as you. Acknowledge and help them as they need to help you heal. You both are never going to forget what happened, but as you both forgive, you her, her herself, you can move on and have a good future and marriage. Yes there will be scars, but they do not have to define you or her, or lastly your marriage and relationship. There is a link that discusses just what is remorse. It is a personal thing, and it may also help you.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/609550-guilt-vs-remorse-vs-shame-relates-affairs

 

I wish you luck.....

[HereNorThere]

Man, talk about gulping down the sh*t five dollar foot long with chips. You are in a worse position now than when you started.

 

Look, your wife didn't respond better to you being nice. She just knows you're spineless and she's the dominant person in the relationship. First and foremost, in any relationship, there has to be a certain level of respect between the partners. Your wife doesn't respect you because you're a wet blanket. You might as well go buy a bigger toothbrush holder because so long as you stay with her, there's going to be other guys around. The only difference is that the next time she will be much harder to catch. Honestly, I really, really doubt she's ever stopped because she's never had a reason to. You obviously allowed it and at the end of the day, she got away with zero consequences. There is no reason for her to stop or ever to stop. Your pain isn't enough for her to end it. How do I know? Because you caught her and she didn't end it. Simple.

 

You came here because you chose to put your head in the sand and it didn't work. Yet here we are, and you're choosing to put your head back in the sand. You don't know what she did or who she did it with. I'd bet the farm you've barely scratched the surface of her infidelity. Normally, that would be the WS fault, but in this case, you've chosen not to know. A polygraph would end your speculation but truthfully, you simply do not want to know.

 

She doesn't judge you by your words, she does it by your actions. You've shown her time and time again you're okay with this. For some reason, you judge her by her words and not her actions. Face it, you're married to an active serial cheater who doesn't care about you. If you're okay with that, so be it. Just stop deluding yourself. You've made no progress whatsoever and that's simply a shame. People gave you great advice, but you have to have the cajones to implement it. You don't.

 

You should probably pick up some extra towels when you get that toothbrush holder. This is going to get messier as time goes on whether you like it or not. That's what happens when you chose not to deal with it, but you already knew that because that's why you're here.

[mercy]

Forgiveness says you are given another chance to make a new beginning. Desmond Tutu

[Unforseen]

Unforseen,

 

You have to remember, and really take this to heart. YOU have the best information on what went on compared to us. YOU know your wife better than any of us can or will. Be confident in your conclusions. Many here will always think the worst, and always push divorce. It is up to you to take what yo need from us, and ignore what does not work , or a poster that is just stuck on their point of view. They have their reality, and are sure of themselves, but we all must acknowledge, we are all different, and no matter the story, the OP's story is is not what happened to us. Look, for myself, if you came back and stated that your wife had gone physical, it would not have surprised, but it also is not surprising she has not. I think you are doing well in reconciliation. What many BS's here do not get, is that they have things to do, and showing compassion, while holding them responsible is one of the things they need to do. We had a thread that discussed what a BS should do in reconciliation. It may be a good read for you.

 

I am going to add my first thoughts:

 

What must a BS do to make the reconciliation work?

 

1) Forgive, and not hold over the WS their action, unless by their present actions, their past must be readdressed. IE, I do not bring up my wife past ONS, and over spending, unless it is germane to the conversation or situation.

 

2) Really decide if you are going to reconcile and give it 100%. Once your "gift" is given you should be prepared for all the hard work that it implies.

 

3) Accept when and if the WS is working and changing, and while verifying, give them benefit of the doubt when warranted.

 

4) Approach the marriage as equals on issues and problems that are not from the affair. In other words, at some point, future problems must be dealt with and the high ground will need to be abandoned.

 

 

This is assuming, and this can be a big assumption, that the WS is a former WS, and is doing everything that is asked for and accepted to reconcile. In other words, a false reconciliation is not happening.

 

I am going to add to that you must be compassionate to their pain and hurt. The point is, that a spouse that is showing and getting, and it can be a life long process, remorse will have pain and hurt as well as you. Acknowledge and help them as they need to help you heal. You both are never going to forget what happened, but as you both forgive, you her, her herself, you can move on and have a good future and marriage. Yes there will be scars, but they do not have to define you or her, or lastly your marriage and relationship. There is a link that discusses just what is remorse. It is a personal thing, and it may also help you.

 

I wish you luck.....

 

Understand, I thank you for your words and well wishes. I will follow up on your suggestions and check out those links. It is very clear to me that the advice offered here is simply that: advice.

 

The variety of backgrounds and experiences and the different places people are in their lives comes all together here on this forum with the primary goal of helping out another individual. Sometimes it is difficult to consider each post and pull from it what is most suitable for that individual's predicament. Without that breadth of wisdom here I might still be confused and wandering aimlessly without direction. Thank you for supporting me and having that bit of faith that I am taking from this wide ranging set of experiences the information I feel will serve me best in recovery, healing, and in showing my wife the compassion that she deserves and needs as she recovers from her shame.

 

My wife and I are using this time to heal and recover and we are both aware that there will be far reaching consequences resulting from her actions. Through IC and MC and just plain time spent building emotional intimacy between us we are developing the skills we will need to weather the fallout from her A and the storms of everyday life.

 

Thank you again for your support and I look forward to crossing paths with you again on these boards.