Leftover questions

[Unforseen]

A successful reconciliation is not possible if the truth is not fully divulged. You both are rebuilding a relationship on yet another faulty foundation. Google Joseph's letter and have her read it. Maybe that will get through to her that the truth is the only way you can really heal and move forward.

 

DDTA, thank you for pointing me towards that letter. You have saved me a bunch of time! All I have to do now is copy and paste!

 

Yeah right. But I will absolutely refer to that letter when I get stuck trying to explain myself.

 

Now I've read it again and am even more blown away by how closely those words describe my thoughts.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Unforseen
Read letter again.

[Unforseen]

Well, bombs away. I finished composing my letter and have passed it on. I don't think it's really as dreary a situation as I might make it sound. I haven't kept my WW in the dark about what was going on. She knows I have been struggling it's just that since the beginning of the year the struggle has become more difficult. I think I was really reaching a point where drifting around in a state of ignorance was wearing me out breaking me down. The rug can only hide so much crap underneath it before it becomes obvious.

 

I know my wife loves me and I can see it in how she behaves and how she treats me. I really do believe that she wants me to heal and wants our relationship and marriage to heal. Because I have that faith in her I am not too worried that she will ignore my request for information and have me linger in this state I am in. Even if she does then at least I will know that much more of the truth, as painful as it might be, and be able to move on with my life.

 

I will come back to this thread once this matter is resolved or if I end up with any more related rants or thoughts.

 

Thank you again for your opinions, comments, and advice.

[DDTA]

I'm glad the letter can help you articulate the need for truth you are trying to communicate to your wife. That letter is also symbolic of how many betrayed have been through that same journey, felt similar emotions and frustrations, needed similar things from their wayward partners to heal and move on. Just know that whatever you struggle with as a result of your wife's infidelity, you are not crazy to feel or react the way you do now. PTSD is also a very real and common result that betrayed partners feel as well. Don't ignore the symptoms and don't let anyone tell you to "just get over it."

[BluesPower]

I hope you read this, although you have had some good advice.

 

You need to keep reading about affairs. To me your W really seems to and has been TT you the whole time.

 

I hope nothing got physical, because believe me that is much worse.

 

But here is the deal: By now you know you tried and are trying to fix a problem that your wife caused. Even if you were not a perfect husband, you did nothing to deserve this.

 

And frankly, the "get an OW" tells me that she has cheated with someone physically at some point. Or, she never wanted to have sex with you again, and is still cheating physically with someone.

 

I am not sure, but this is what it sounds like to me. Most women would never suggest this to a man unless the guilt of their cheating was such that they needed you to sleep with someone else to make them feel better.

 

Of course it would also mean that the don't love you enough to tell the truth, this a really strange comment that seems to have been over looked.

 

Another big thing: You say you know she loves you...How? I was in a marriage where I just loved my wife no matter what she did to me, I could not help it... Until I came to realize that she never really loved me.

 

We are sometimes blinded by our love for a woman, and we refuse to see that they really don't love us, they use us.

 

Just think about some of this. I am not saying that I am correct about everything, but it does warrant consideration...

[merrmeade]

First, nothing you did or said changed the course of your wife's betrayals. Nevermind whatever you call being abusive when you were jealous of the 'games.' She was already too into it, drugged by it, and oblivious. She probably just found your complaints annoying and wanted only to get back to it. Don't blame or count anything else you did as causative. She wanted to do it. She didn't care. You haven't said once that she tried to stop herself or that she felt bad about betraying you until she was caught and even then what did she do? She had fights with you about HER privacy! What?!!! She'd been sexually intimate online with other men and had the temerity to expect privacy?!!

 

No, no, no. And this is why she's not divulging everything and won't. She doesn't have to. She's all about the minimum she has to do (reveal): nothing more, nothing less. She wasn't forced to face much consequence, if any, and imo TT happens because of that. It's not just a condition of some WSs. It's because they didn't have to. They had more to lose by telling than by not telling. THAT is the only thing that's your fault.

 

I did the same thing, though I did get the truth eventually but at great cost to myself. However, my husband did not argue. That much is different.

 

Otherwise, it's like I was - doing all the work, blaming yourself, generally not acknowledging to YOURSELF the colossal egregiousness of what she's done and, therefore, not holding her fully accountable. In other words, you haven't allowed your most justified anger to BE, and so it's turned inward and settled into depression. It took me too long to learn this: Depression can be anger unacknowledged.

 

Yet I don't think you can go backwards. iow, you can't (and you won't) get that time back when your outrage was pure, spontaneous and unassailable AND you had the confidence of your conviction that she was 100% wrong and you were 100% wronged. Full stop. No, choose me or him (them). Just, you've done this and I don't know what I'm going to do about it or, better yet, divorce, separation, or something more final than - "choose."

 

You can only change yourself to acknowlefge what's been done to you and how you feel about it - WITHOUT then being immediately gaslighted by your wife . Yes, she needs therapy, but so do you. You won't heal until you face that anger is my guess, and you need help doing it.

Edited March 30, 2017 by merrmeade

[QuietDan]

Wow...still troubled by that silly little game? She has no need or time for the game. I strongly suspect the affair is still in progress. Probable with another phone. Other more careful methods. She has gotten a lot better in hiding it. Yah, sounds like she may be having miced feelings about you. Thinks you are a good man. But, she still sounds and acts like something else is still happening. For one thing, she hasn't stepped up yet and really own the whole truth with you. Which suggests foggy mixes up dylusional thinking associated with affair activity is still happening.

[aliveagain]

One of the best way's for a betrayed spouse to ask a wayward spouse for the truth about their affair that I have found is "Joseph's Letter." The letter only works if the wayward spouse is truly remorseful and reconciliation is your goal. I don't know if we are allowed to paste it here as it originated on the now defunct BAN Message Board. The best way to find the letter is to just Google it then modify it to suit your situation. Please read it and let us know your thoughts on it.

[Unforseen]

I have been paying attention to what others have posted and have been keeping tabs on my WW phone and email. Obviously there could be another phone or more accounts that I don't know about but I see that as highly unlikely at this point. I've been keeping a close eye on our finances as well both of our checks are direct deposit and there have not been any unusual transactions since she quit playing that video game a year or so ago.

 

I have been patiently waiting for her to return the information that I asked for. Since she is in bookkeeping and it is tax season she has been working 60-70 hours a week and has seriously needed my support to get through it. Those crazy work hours are why I gave her an generous time to get the information back.

 

In the mean time she has been very open with any questions relating to her A that I bring up. I have limited those questions even to only those that are burning a hole in my brain and will not wait.

 

She has never wavered when i ask her about a PA. She has consistently denied it and I am beginning to trust her on that. The only time that I cannot account for her where abouts was many years ago and I confirmed her alibi with a roommate we used to have and the gal she ended up hanging out with instead of being in class like she said she was.

 

I went to a couple of therapy sessions and I am confused as hell. What makes infedelity so much different from other wrongs a person might commit in marriage? The therapist I was seeing heard me out during the first session and then spent the second season telling me how wrong I was for wanting to know what my WW had been up to. WTF? So suddenly there is no need for accountability when it's an A?

 

The question I posed before canceling my next appointment was to ask why then my wife and I should have any accountability towards eachother. So next time I go to have a beer or two with the guys after work and forget to let her know then I just have to say sorry I was late? No need to explain where I was or what I was doing? I don't think it works that way.

[Overtaxed]

I have been paying attention to what others have posted and have been keeping tabs on my WW phone and email. Obviously there could be another phone or more accounts that I don't know about but I see that as highly unlikely at this point. I've been keeping a close eye on our finances as well both of our checks are direct deposit and there have not been any unusual transactions since she quit playing that video game a year or so ago.

 

I have been patiently waiting for her to return the information that I asked for. Since she is in bookkeeping and it is tax season she has been working 60-70 hours a week and has seriously needed my support to get through it. Those crazy work hours are why I gave her an generous time to get the information back.

 

In the mean time she has been very open with any questions relating to her A that I bring up. I have limited those questions even to only those that are burning a hole in my brain and will not wait.

 

She has never wavered when i ask her about a PA. She has consistently denied it and I am beginning to trust her on that. The only time that I cannot account for her where abouts was many years ago and I confirmed her alibi with a roommate we used to have and the gal she ended up hanging out with instead of being in class like she said she was.

 

I went to a couple of therapy sessions and I am confused as hell. What makes infedelity so much different from other wrongs a person might commit in marriage? The therapist I was seeing heard me out during the first session and then spent the second season telling me how wrong I was for wanting to know what my WW had been up to. WTF? So suddenly there is no need for accountability when it's an A?

 

The question I posed before canceling my next appointment was to ask why then my wife and I should have any accountability towards eachother. So next time I go to have a beer or two with the guys after work and forget to let her know then I just have to say sorry I was late? No need to explain where I was or what I was doing? I don't think it works that way.

 

Just a note from my situation, take "therapists" with a grain of salt. My wife's therapist, upon learning of the A, suggested to her a course of action that would have certainly led to an immediate D with maximum prejudice; my wife would have been destroyed financially if she'd followed the "find yourself, be a free bird" bull that her therapist was slinging.

 

Therapy is helpful, there's no doubt. But they are just people, and they all bring their own prejudices and vision of right/wrong into the room with them. The way to heal from an A is well documented here, if you haven't read it, the "Things every WS need to know" thread is gold, as are many of the other linked posts that pop up in a lot of threads. What I needed/need to heal was clearly outlined here, what my wife's therapist was suggesting was pretty much the polar opposite (go on a 3 month sabbatical to the woods and find yourself).

[HereNorThere]

Ditto on therapist thing. My first one was a complete waste of time. I did my research and decided to see a psychiatrist instead of psychologist. The difference between the two was staggering. Does this therapist have a background in psychoanalysis or are they more of marriage and family counselor type person? From reading around here, the ones geared more towards family and marriage seem to downplay and minimize betrayed spouses and their feelings. It makes sense if you look at it from a "save the marriage, not the spouse" perspective but it doesn't seem to be very effective at reducing your pain.

 

Personally, I think you're being too nice and wayward spouses will totally take advantage of that. If you're not over it, don't pretend to be. I can tell you from experience, the resentment builds if you feel like you've been dealt an injustice. Since it seems like that ship has already sailed, find a new a therapist. Read their reviews online and if you don't like them, don't go back (within reason.) And don't do the tit-for-tat, staying out late thing. You're better than that and more importantly, she'll hold it against you and use it to rationalize any future crappy behavior.

 

How are you with technology? It's fairly easy to login to your router and view the clients connected to it. You wouldn't be able to see what's being transmitted, but it would tell you the number of devices and device name(s.) If there was mystery device connected, it would be easy to tell. I'm not implying she is doing anything nor have you said anything to make me suspicious but this is an option if you need it. Just google the router model number or contact your provider if they furnished it. You'll open a web browser and navigate to an address like http://192.168.1.1 and need username and password (default is usually something like admin/admin.) It's a fairly a simple interface once you get in.

 

Good luck and keep posting!

[drifter777]

She has never wavered when i ask her about a PA. She has consistently denied it and I am beginning to trust her on that. The only time that I cannot account for her where abouts was many years ago and I confirmed her alibi with a roommate we used to have and the gal she ended up hanging out with instead of being in class like she said she was.

Your wife may be the first WW having an EA with a man within reasonable physical proximity not to have sex - but I doubt it. Getting her to volunteer the truth will never happen. She will take the true facts to her grave. You might be able to dig up enough evidence to make her give you a peek into what really took place but that will take a lot of effort on your part. She ain't going to tell you nothing you cannot prove.

I went to a couple of therapy sessions and I am confused as hell. What makes infedelity so much different from other wrongs a person might commit in marriage? The therapist I was seeing heard me out during the first session and then spent the second season telling me how wrong I was for wanting to know what my WW had been up to. WTF? So suddenly there is no need for accountability when it's an A?

 

The question I posed before canceling my next appointment was to ask why then my wife and I should have any accountability towards eachother. So next time I go to have a beer or two with the guys after work and forget to let her know then I just have to say sorry I was late? No need to explain where I was or what I was doing? I don't think it works that way.

So it seems like your counselor is in the "don't ask; don't tell" camp of dealing with infidelity. The thing is here is that he works for you. You pay him. You get to set the agenda and if he doesn't want to get in to the things that you believe you need in order to heal this hurt then fire him. This is exactly the kind of thing you need to discuss whenever you start seeing a new counselor. Tell them YOUR goals and make sure they agree to help you achieve them. Most counselors will try to get a couple to move past the details of an affair ONCE THEY HAVE BEEN ADDRESSED. Clearly, you are not ready to move forward and leave this important step behind unresolved. After all, you know she's lying about the sex - how can you proceed based on that lie?

[Unforseen]

Just a note from my situation, take "therapists" with a grain of salt. My wife's therapist, upon learning of the A, suggested to her a course of action that would have certainly led to an immediate D with maximum prejudice; my wife would have been destroyed financially if she'd followed the "find yourself, be a free bird" bull that her therapist was slinging.

 

Therapy is helpful, there's no doubt. But they are just people, and they all bring their own prejudices and vision of right/wrong into the room with them. The way to heal from an A is well documented here, if you haven't read it, the "Things every WS need to know" thread is gold, as are many of the other linked posts that pop up in a lot of threads. What I needed/need to heal was clearly outlined here, what my wife's therapist was suggesting was pretty much the polar opposite (go on a 3 month sabbatical to the woods and find yourself).

 

Indeed. Even though the MC we originally went through brushed the whole silly little affair thing to the side, the things that we did start working on and fixing between us and what we learned about how to talk and, more importantly, listen to each other, has been very helpful.

 

Almost as soon as I discovered that thread for what every WS needs to know I sent it to my WW. Once again it is something that gives me hope for out R as almost immediately I noticed some of her attitudes change. There were more apologies, she miraculously grew more patient with me, and she did not argue or grow defensive after reading my list of demands (time line and a few other burning questions) that I wrote up for her.

 

In someways it was like she didn't know how she was supposed to be dealing with me and the emotional roller coaster ride that she signed me up for.

 

It does make you wonder how many marriage are actually ruined by bad idea from counseling.

[Unforseen]

Ditto on therapist thing. My first one was a complete waste of time. I did my research and decided to see a psychiatrist instead of psychologist. The difference between the two was staggering. Does this therapist have a background in psychoanalysis or are they more of marriage and family counselor type person? From reading around here, the ones geared more towards family and marriage seem to downplay and minimize betrayed spouses and their feelings. It makes sense if you look at it from a "save the marriage, not the spouse" perspective but it doesn't seem to be very effective at reducing your pain.

 

Personally, I think you're being too nice and wayward spouses will totally take advantage of that. If you're not over it, don't pretend to be. I can tell you from experience, the resentment builds if you feel like you've been dealt an injustice. Since it seems like that ship has already sailed, find a new a therapist. Read their reviews online and if you don't like them, don't go back (within reason.) And don't do the tit-for-tat, staying out late thing. You're better than that and more importantly, she'll hold it against you and use it to rationalize any future crappy behavior.

 

How are you with technology? It's fairly easy to login to your router and view the clients connected to it. You wouldn't be able to see what's being transmitted, but it would tell you the number of devices and device name(s.) If there was mystery device connected, it would be easy to tell. I'm not implying she is doing anything nor have you said anything to make me suspicious but this is an option if you need it. Just google the router model number or contact your provider if they furnished it. You'll open a web browser and navigate to an address like http://192.168.1.1 and need username and password (default is usually something like admin/admin.) It's a fairly a simple interface once you get in.

 

Good luck and keep posting!

 

That was a big part of my problem: I wasn't anywhere near being over anything yet I felt a pressure that I should be from my WW. An almost nagging feeling that I just need to forget anything ever happened and move along with life. I was allowing myself to be walked all over and the resentment was building. There was something off and I was still living that lie of "everything is just fine" while I was going crazy on the other side of my eyes. That's kind of what drove me to this site. I was searching for answers to questions I didn't know to ask.

 

I hadn't thought about checking the router. I am happy to report that there were no mystery devices. It also lead me to do a little more digging. I found an old iphone backup and some free to try programs that let me dig around in the backup files including messages and the messaging app that she had been using. As much as I would like to have every bit of data possible I don't think there is a way to access any kind of chat logs from the Game of War (the game she was addicted to) but that is okay as her accounts were given away and subsequently closed by the recipients BS.

 

While it is still not the whole story I did not find anything that would indicate she was planning to or had ever met up with anyone she was sexting with. I did find lots of, almost laughably, juvenile sexting (maybe it means I'm starting to get better if I can find parts of this mess funny). And there was only one item that I felt I had to call her out on as being a direct lie.

 

She admitted that she did not break all connection with OM#2 when I discovered his existence 18 months ago. She admitted when I questioned her about it that she had sent him three more messages on that D-Day #2. The, I'm guessing, usual "oh we had so much fun, but I got busted, if things don't work out with BS I will find you again, etc."

 

Yeah it hurt to see that and know that as I was giving her an ultimatum of them or me and planning my life without her she was stringing this piece of human refuse along as a backup! But that was 18 months ago and I have no evidence that she had been in contact since.

[Overtaxed]

That was a big part of my problem: I wasn't anywhere near being over anything yet I felt a pressure that I should be from my WW. An almost nagging feeling that I just need to forget anything ever happened and move along with life. I was allowing myself to be walked all over and the resentment was building. There was something off and I was still living that lie of "everything is just fine" while I was going crazy on the other side of my eyes. That's kind of what drove me to this site. I was searching for answers to questions I didn't know to ask.

 

I hadn't thought about checking the router. I am happy to report that there were no mystery devices. It also lead me to do a little more digging. I found an old iphone backup and some free to try programs that let me dig around in the backup files including messages and the messaging app that she had been using. As much as I would like to have every bit of data possible I don't think there is a way to access any kind of chat logs from the Game of War (the game she was addicted to) but that is okay as her accounts were given away and subsequently closed by the recipients BS.

 

While it is still not the whole story I did not find anything that would indicate she was planning to or had ever met up with anyone she was sexting with. I did find lots of, almost laughably, juvenile sexting (maybe it means I'm starting to get better if I can find parts of this mess funny). And there was only one item that I felt I had to call her out on as being a direct lie.

 

She admitted that she did not break all connection with OM#2 when I discovered his existence 18 months ago. She admitted when I questioned her about it that she had sent him three more messages on that D-Day #2. The, I'm guessing, usual "oh we had so much fun, but I got busted, if things don't work out with BS I will find you again, etc."

 

Yeah it hurt to see that and know that as I was giving her an ultimatum of them or me and planning my life without her she was stringing this piece of human refuse along as a backup! But that was 18 months ago and I have no evidence that she had been in contact since.

 

It is good to try to find humor in it, I think I already mentioned it, but I have all the TXT messages between my WW and her AP. Some of them do hurt badly, but some of them I just have to think to myself, how in the hell could anyone buy this line of s**t. Just goes to show me that sometimes "laying it on thick" is indeed a valid strategy.

 

I hope you continue to heal; I'm firmly in the "try to R" camp for most posters, yourself included, because, frankly, that's what I signed up for when I stood on before my friends/family with my wife and said "I do". Some of the stories here, the only answer is "D". I don't feel that way about yours at all, you have a confused W who hurt you badly, but if you both want to fix it; if I was in your shoes and felt the way you seem to indicate, I think it's absolutely worth the try and that there's a good chance of it working out. Listen, something like 50% of marriages have infidelity in them. I have a feeling that number is woefully underreported. Add in "exaggerating factors" (one of both partners drinks with friends often, travels for work, is very attractive, is highly sexual, etc), and, I know I'm jaded, but I'm thinking that number very quickly approaches 100%. It's going to happen to MOST people in a marriage at some point. If it's something that you can never live with under any circumstances, I really think that getting married may not be in your best interest. I know, I'm jaded, but I'm also realistic.

[Unforseen]

My W and I recently went camping. There was sort of an understanding that I would be getting the answer to my request for a timeline. What I didn't realize is that she would be starting the timeline at her earliest solid memories at around 8-10 years old. While this may seem odd it was actually a rather special thing. She was letting me in on things that she has been keeping from me most of our marriage. Most of the facts I had heard bits and pieces of before, but there was a great deal of herself that she had been hiding all these years. Very early on she had learned to keep her feelings to herself. Without going into too much detail she has been left with a very firm belief that she doesn't matter, that her feelings don't matter, and that no one cares what they are anyway. So she had carefully constructed a somewhat neutral personality and has spent a great deal of effort hiding herself behind it and keeping her feelings to herself as anything bad that happens to her is just something that she deserves anyway. She has only this past year really been working on IC to deal with her experiences growing up. We eventually got up to the point where the affairs started, but there is more work that needs to be done there.

 

What I learned was that the EA with OM#1 started about 4 weeks before D-Day #1. He was the player type and instigated it. She went along with it and chose to participate because she wanted and enjoyed the sexual attention she got through their texting and picture swapping. She felt desired and that made her feel good and satisfied what she thought was missing from our marriage. She said that when it started she felt dead inside. That she felt nothing, but the interactions with OM1 and his pursuit of her countered her sadness of thinking that I no longer loved her. The attention he spent on her and the fake compliments he piled on in chasing after another conquest made her happy and desired when she thought I wanted her out of my life.

 

The event that broke her and convinced her that I was no longer in lover with her and wanted her gone happened about 2 weeks before the A started. For Father's Day she gave me a hand painted wooden sign with phrases indicating how much she needs me. Things like I'm the jam in her jelly roll and similar cute things. When I saw what it was I gave her a look of disdain and disgust. It was that look that broke her for a time and caused her to feel unloved and unwanted. There was no way I could have known what she was trying to do. This was about 2 months after she started playing the video game and about two weeks before she allowed the chats with the OM to escalate to flirting and sexting and responding in kind. By that point she was spending 10-12 hours a day play the game during the week and maybe 16-20 hours a day on the weekend. Logging in was the first thing she would do in the morning, she would spend her lunch hour playing, and then right back on it as soon as she got home in the evening. She withdrew from me and our son. I started many fights with her to get her to put down the phone or ipad to eat dinner with us. And even then she would waste more time telling all of her in-game friends BRB or similar while our son and I waited at the table. But I did not see that she was unhappy and depressed. I only saw that she was giving up her family for an addiction to a video game.

 

She said she felt wanted in the game. Her teammate were always happy to see her and she never felt judged for being herself. Never mind that it was all a lie. She only presented the best of herself to her game friends and gave them all of her energy while I got only the negative when she bothered to interact with me at all. So after 2 months of this when she presented me with the gift proclaiming that I was her missing half and meant the world to her and took it as a ridiculous lie and could not understand why she would even get something as fake as that when her every action was in contradiction with the words on the sign. So I couldn't hide my disdain and disgust at being handed such a big pile of crap and didn't even bother to act like I was grateful. She spent so much time concealing herself from me that I had no idea how truly unhappy she was and that the gift was her begging me to show her that she was loved. It is very difficult not to feel guilty about looking at her in that way even though I can't see anyway in which I could have known what she really meant.

 

She had not talked to me about how she felt because she believe that she was unlovable and that I was done with her anyway. She did not want to give me the chance to reject her and abandon like everyone else had done to her and like she felt she deserved. So she said nothing and withdrew into her fantasy video game world where she felt wanted. Then I unintentionally broke her spirit with my look of disdain and she felt she had nothing else to lose. So she developed the sexting based A with OM#1 because he at least appeared to want her when she felt that I did not.

 

What was surprising to me was that she instigated the A with OM#2 after I had discovered OM#1. Though sometimes I feel like I shouldn't be surprised by anything at this point. While I was busy taking all the blame for not making her feel loved and about every other issue negatively impacting our marriage she was busy starting a sexting A with OM#2. Apparently she was actually attracted to him and had been in contact with him before I discovered OM#1. In her final farewell chats to OM#2 after that discovery she indicated that she had been 'busted again' but that it was fun and she hoped to do it again sometime if things didn't work out with me. Yeah. That stung a lot.

 

But the most painful and most confusing was OM#3. He was the husband replacement. It is most confusing to me because I knew the most about that one. She had not him as a contact or deleted their messages to each other after I discovered him. My WW even admitted her own confusion as to why she felt more shame about the sexting and picture swapping than about the OM and EA that caused me the most pain. He was the one she was pouring her energy into while the others were more along the lines of cheap thrills. He was the one she was begging attention from if her messages went unanswered for too long. He was the one she was grateful for and constantly thanking for being there for her. He was the one she would brag about in group chats for his video game proficiency. He was the one that she pledged herself to as being his 'right hand girl' when her in-game loyalties were questioned. Maybe it hurts so much because these are areas where I feel that I have failed her the most through much of our marriage and it was devastating to see someone else so easily take my place.

 

There is still a great deal more ground to cover with my WW. I felt seriously drained as we probably spent a total of 8 hours throughout the day talking at this emotionally intimate level. Maybe she is just making a fool out of me again. I don't know anymore at this point. Part of me would welcome the idea of calling it quits with the idea that at least then I wouldn't have to care about her anymore. The rest of me knows better and thinks that it would be a shame to give up at this point. I think I need to step back a bit and try to figure out if she really is telling me all that she can and if I can accept that and live with what she is able to give me at this point. In many ways it is a completely new relationship and she is like a stranger I am just getting to know.

[Superchicken]

Well, if you believe all that, then I have some "Prime" Louisiana swap land for sale. Trust me, its true.

Only accessible during summer, and need a boat to get there.

 

 

But hey, you believe it, good luck to you.

Me, I would read the highlights.

I can bet she has had more than a EA, and she's not admitting to it.

 

 

 

 

Ted.

[Unforseen]

Well, if you believe all that, then I have some "Prime" Louisiana swap land for sale. Trust me, its true.

Only accessible during summer, and need a boat to get there.

 

But hey, you believe it, good luck to you.

Me, I would read the highlights.

I can bet she has had more than a EA, and she's not admitting to it.

 

Ted.

 

No thanks. I've had about all of the good real estate deals that I can handle. She has been trickling things out and I let her to protect her feelings. I let her manipulate me into allowing things to go that way. I let the MC convince me for a time that I didn't need to know and only needed to see how she was treating me and behaving now. That somehow past behavior could just be swept under the rug and forgotten and that would make it all better. That's why I spent a year or so off balance without quite knowing why. Would you believe that in my ignorance I didn't realize it was okay for me to want to know what the hell my WW was up to behind my back or in the same bed as me while I was sleeping? I was convinced that her feelings were all that mattered and that I had to be gentle with them and do all the work if I wanted to save our marriage. And yes, I have felt doubly the fool since. But I also know that I still want to stay married to her if possible but that she will have to start picking up the load or it will not work and I will move on. All I've managed to do so far is make R more difficult for me.

 

As for a PA I still believe that she did not have one. That is the only answer that has remained unchanged. In the time that she stepped out of the marriage I can account for her whereabouts. She was sitting in her damn chair in the living room with that damn phone or iPad glued to her hand.

 

The EAs were easy. She could be involved with them without ever putting her phone down or moving from her chair. But yup there's always a chance. She could have snuck someone in or snuck out of the house at some point without alerting the dogs or me after I went to bed. Stranger things have happened and if they did I will probably never know about it unless I have her scheduled for a poly or am told by someone else. At the moment I am content to stick my head in the sand on that issue and chose to believe that on that one item she is being truthful.

 

On the other hand why are you so certain that there was a PA? I have not read very many threads here and have a tendency towards optimism and trust. Interrogating my WW has not been fun or easy for me. Please let me know what you feel I am missing.

[WilyWill]

If the men were not local, my bet is that there was no PA. I think she is being mostly truthful with you.

[QuietDan]

No thanks. I've had about all of the good real estate deals that I can handle. She has been trickling things out and I let her to protect her feelings. I let her manipulate me into allowing things to go that way. I let the MC convince me for a time that I didn't need to know and only needed to see how she was treating me and behaving now. That somehow past behavior could just be swept under the rug and forgotten and that would make it all better. That's why I spent a year or so off balance without quite knowing why. Would you believe that in my ignorance I didn't realize it was okay for me to want to know what the hell my WW was up to behind my back or in the same bed as me while I was sleeping? I was convinced that her feelings were all that mattered and that I had to be gentle with them and do all the work if I wanted to save our marriage. And yes, I have felt doubly the fool since. But I also know that I still want to stay married to her if possible but that she will have to start picking up the load or it will not work and I will move on. All I've managed to do so far is make R more difficult for me.

 

As for a PA I still believe that she did not have one. That is the only answer that has remained unchanged. In the time that she stepped out of the marriage I can account for her whereabouts. She was sitting in her damn chair in the living room with that damn phone or iPad glued to her hand.

 

The EAs were easy. She could be involved with them without ever putting her phone down or moving from her chair. But yup there's always a chance. She could have snuck someone in or snuck out of the house at some point without alerting the dogs or me after I went to bed. Stranger things have happened and if they did I will probably never know about it unless I have her scheduled for a poly or am told by someone else. At the moment I am content to stick my head in the sand on that issue and chose to believe that on that one item she is being truthful.

 

On the other hand why are you so certain that there was a PA? I have not read very many threads here and have a tendency towards optimism and trust. Interrogating my WW has not been fun or easy for me. Please let me know what you feel I am missing.

 

I appreciate that you believe it is highly unlikely that she was able to have a PA. I suppose, reading through these different threads over the years, I have come to appreciate and try not to underestimate just how creative and sneaky a wayward can get when it comes to having both EA & PA's.

I can think of one or two that swear that there is no way that their PA is detectable by their betrayed spouse. I believe they were able to participate in the activity during routine home to work commutes or trips to the grocery store, some even have the Other man park a few blocks from the house. And... on and on it goes... just about the time you think no way.... there was a way.

There is one item that really seems to indicate that some how, some way, at some point in your marriage, she had a PA. Your wife suggesting to you to get OW.

 

Usually, this means one of two things.

One: common reason for a wife to suggest to husband to get OW is that she is not able to physically have sex for medical/psychological reasons for years with no foreseeable change possible.

Two: She is having and affair or is engaged in sexual activity with other men.

 

Your wife would be fairly unique if she suggested you to get another woman to have sex with given the type of activities that you have described that she has been with so far.

 

As a general rule of thumb, just not that common or likely for women to suggest that her husband seek the comfort of having a PA with another woman if she is in a monogamous relationship with you.

Back to that this is a big "Red" flag.

Maybe in fact, she hasn't had a PA.

 

However, so far, as I recall, for the most part, if you haven't proved it, she doesn't admit it. She only seems to slowly acknowledge what you have proven. Since you have no proof of a PA, I doubt she would ever volunteer that information or admit to it.

[BluesPower]

Yes, what QD said...

 

This is the way that you know. And if you are smart, you will schedule a poly ASAP.

 

Not just to confirm that she has slept around at least some, but you have to know what you are dealing with. If you think you are pissed about the EA's just think how you would feel about the wild monkey sex that she had with one or more men.

 

The comment to you about getting an OW is almost, almost, a direct admission that she has been sleeping around on you. Most women, never want to share their men, it is not the having sex with another woman that bothers them as much, although it does, it is the possibility of losing you, their lifestyle, and comfort to a hotter woman. They worry that you will leave.

 

I hope that I am wrong but making her take a poly will confirm whether or not she has slept with one or more men, or woman for that matter.

 

For you to start healing you must know the truth or it will never work. And if physical sex is a deal breaker for you, you may as well know now instead of later.

 

On another note, where do these MC's get off with this philosophy for dealing with infidelity. There are so many of them that think that way and people that know nothing about infidelity will accept this foolishness.

 

This is such a disservice to the clients it ought to be grounds for malpractice...

[GoldenR]

I'll third what QD said.

 

And what BP suggested is necessary: poly

[wmacbride]

Indeed. Even though the MC we originally went through brushed the whole silly little affair thing to the side, the things that we did start working on and fixing between us and what we learned about how to talk and, more importantly, listen to each other, has been very helpful.

 

Almost as soon as I discovered that thread for what every WS needs to know I sent it to my WW. Once again it is something that gives me hope for out R as almost immediately I noticed some of her attitudes change. There were more apologies, she miraculously grew more patient with me, and she did not argue or grow defensive after reading my list of demands (time line and a few other burning questions) that I wrote up for her.

 

In someways it was like she didn't know how she was supposed to be dealing with me and the emotional roller coaster ride that she signed me up for.

 

It does make you wonder how many marriage are actually ruined by bad idea from counseling.

 

Some therapists are great, others, not so much.

 

Our first mc was cheating on her husband ( we saw her and her om walking in a park holding hands), so we quit her services immediately.

 

Our next was much better, and the first question she asked was whether or not we wanted to save our marriage or if we really wanted to call it quits. Once she found out we wanted to reconcile, she explained how difficult he process can be, but to not give up.

 

A good mc can be really helpful, but not essential. The key is finding one who won't let his or her own personal bias into the equation.

[QuietDan]

Yes, what QD said...

 

On another note, where do these MC's get off with this philosophy for dealing with infidelity. There are so many of them that think that way and people that know nothing about infidelity will accept this foolishness.

 

This is such a disservice to the clients it ought to be grounds for malpractice...

 

I think you can thank, Laura Schlessinger for that.

She had a great pulpit to preach her philosophy for a long time.

She actively promoted the philosophy that the remorseful repentant wayward should keep their secrete to themselves and pay penitence by doing the solo lone wolf fix yourself fix the problem on your own approach.

She justified it by promoting the idea that is was saving the loyal betrayed spouse unnecessary emotional pain that would occur if the truth was known.

 

Unfortunately, I think what it did was more a kin to creating talking points for waywards to justify and maintain the lies and secrecy that has overtaken their lives and substantial adversely affected their personal character issues.

 

However, she was in fact a serial wayward in her personal life.

I think her own wayward thinking filtered into her public message and became popularized and sort of seem to be fully adopted and ran with over the last 30 years.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I think you can thank, Laura Schlessinger for that.

She had a great pulpit to preach her philosophy for a long time.

She actively promoted the philosophy that the remorseful repentant wayward should keep their secrete to themselves and pay penitence by doing the solo lone wolf fix yourself fix the problem on your own approach.

She justified it by promoting the idea that is was saving the loyal betrayed spouse unnecessary emotional pain that would occur if the truth was known.

 

Unfortunately, I think what it did was more a kin to creating talking points for waywards to justify and maintain the lies and secrecy that has overtaken their lives and substantial adversely affected their personal character issues.

 

However, she was in fact a serial wayward in her personal life.

I think her own wayward thinking filtered into her public message and became popularized and sort of seem to be fully adopted and ran with over the last 30 years.

 

I have only had one affair....and god knows i have made so many mistakes....and i wrestled for a very long time after i confessed that i should have kept my damn mouth shut.

 

But all these years later....I know i did the right thing...I gave him the chance to kick me out...I gave him the chance to make a decision that he felt was best for him. It was truly the least I could do...since i took away his decisons and his choices by cheating.

 

I have read so many arguements for and against disclosing...and i guess ultimately...it is a personal choice...but i think it is also very revealing about the wayward.

 

If you have a wayward who chooses to not tell...you probably have a wayward who can live with lies...and thats a bit frightening for betrayeds....because what else are they hiding? and do they truly understand what remorse is? and what happens if you eventually find out?

 

If you have a wayward who spills their guts...you probably have a person who is more likely to eventually understand remorse....and while they shared what they have done ...they also hurt you and you know about their betrayal....a huge thing to overcome

 

Who has better odds of a successful reconciliation? I dont know...becasue i think there is probably a whole lot of folks who cheat and never tell...and sometimes they cheat over and over again.

 

in addition..there are different kinds of betrayed spouses. There are those who wish they did not know....there are those who put their head in the sand and live their life and are content to pretend everything is ok.

 

So I think it takes a special kind of wayward...paired with a special kind of betrayed...and if the pairing is not right...you have a divorced couple....and if the pairing is right...you have a successful reconciliation.....and if the pairing is really screwed up...you have a couple who simply exists.

[QuietDan]

On the other hand why are you so certain that there was a PA? I have not read very many threads here and have a tendency towards optimism and trust. Interrogating my WW has not been fun or easy for me. Please let me know what you feel I am missing.

 

....That is another scary thought that I must look square in the face. I am pretty certain that there was no PA during the period of the EA. With her addiction to the video game that started it all there was simply no time. Her time at work was documented and she would typically be home as quickly as possibly to log back into the game. As best as I could tell most of her OMs were out of state or in other countries. She has vehemently and repeatedly stated that there has never been a PA in the 20 years that we have been married. Even if there was it would have to be recent or something on the extreme side to knock R of the table. If I find out that she was lying then that is another matter.

 

Generally speaking, I have seen a pattern over the years when reading these threads from BS's regarding conversations/discussions that they have with their WW's. Usually in the following months from a vehement denial of any particular fact or detail, that fact or detail, what ever was being vehemently denied usually seems to have occurred.

It seems like vehement denials occur in an effort to bluff the questioning BS and get them to shut down and cease that line of questioning.

I am getting to the point where anytime I see a "vehement denial", I wonder how long and to what extent of investigation will take the BS to uncover that lie.

 

Her response to changing the fundamental nature of the marriage into an open marriage in the manner that you describe, usually is typical of a long term wayward involve with PA's.

 

Either she has been in a long term affair with someone prior to this recent series of events, with this latest group of online guys, or she is a serial cheater with a wide variety of short term partners and ONS's. But, generally speaking, this only seems to happen with waywards who have been involved with PA's for at least 3 years.

I have noticed over the years when reading these different threads, for some reason, 3 years seems to be the magic number for this.

 

I say that... with the obvious exception, that this does not sound like or appear to be the occasional "make things even and fair "Hall Pass"" that some people try in order to poorly attempt to alleviate guilt and even out the scales. Even in those cases, it still involves a PA. But, usually a completely different conversation and set of issues than what appears to be in this particular case. More often than not, those things just cause more problems and pain than they solve or resolve.

 

I am encouraged by the progress that you two seem to be starting to make.

I really want to be rooting for both of you to be really starting to march down the long road of reconciliation and recovery.

 

But, its like anything, if you don't know what the real problem is and what you really both need to overcome, what ever solutions and work you do is like sweeping the porch and watering the yard when the house is on fire.

Or, going to the emergency room to see the doctor about getting some ointment for an annoying rash, and, maybe a few stitches for a cut on the arm, while ignoring the gunshot wound to the chest. The other stuff, is manageable, and perhaps easier, but, it isn't going to really fix the major problem or rescue the situation.