Chaparral Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 What have you done to verify her truthfulness? Have you ever caught her lying? Did you use a voice activated recorder in her car and at home when you are not there? GPS her car? Sorry, I can't remember if this has already come up on this thread. Ever had any sudden changes in sex life? More or less? Does she often tell you she loves you? Consistently? Link to post Share on other sites
Author rocky2marie Posted January 13, 2017 Author Share Posted January 13, 2017 What have you done to verify her truthfulness? Have you ever caught her lying? Did you use a voice activated recorder in her car and at home when you are not there? GPS her car? Sorry, I can't remember if this has already come up on this thread. Ever had any sudden changes in sex life? More or less? Does she often tell you she loves you? Consistently? Well let's see: No I haven't done a voice activated recorder or GPS. Yes there was a sudden massive change in our sex life for the better. And yes she tells me she loves me multiple times a day. All the time. That's been more or less consistent. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Jersey born raised Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Hi, I meant to say keep alert, keep probing but covertly. Your MC are you sure you provided full content of what they said? Was it balanced with while it might be a part of human nature it up to us to chose which part of human nature to follow? That a choice to engage in adultery rest only on the WS. That the aftermath is always a damage marriage almost always destroyed. That it not only destroys the BS but children as well. That it damages friendships and finally, of least importance, the financial set backs? Rocky I am challenging you here. I hear you and if you where to say I am separating and divorcing today, based on what you shared I would say you need to. But you need to answer this post and my comment about one sided hidden agreements. Do your WS think she was in a monogamous relationship. Did you just think before engaging "we agreed to disagree" so there is no issue? None of these actions justify her actions. NONE OF THEM! They do however need to be addressed. Link to post Share on other sites
Author rocky2marie Posted January 13, 2017 Author Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) Not sure about one sided arrangements. The person she was seeing from AA sent her an email a year or so ago inviting both she and i to his and his wife's Xmas party. Her reply was that if I was in town (I work out of town freelance) we would likely have our own party....But if I was OUT of town then sure she'd definitely love to come and bring my son and so on. So she knows both he and his wife. Anyway it speaks to the platonicness of the whole thing I guess. His inclusive email seemed to uphold it. But yeah I've brought this all up in therapy. Therapist was non plussed. Acknowledged that the fact that she didn't tell me about this person for six years was fishy but that I essentially brought it on myself for telling her "no Male friends in AA" which both wife and therapist saw as me being paranoid. Edited January 13, 2017 by rocky2marie Link to post Share on other sites
Jersey born raised Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Er AA itself I believes is very cautious about OS friends. If I am right, again right, your MC needs to go. Third strike she's out. But again I need to ask for context. Did she share with your wife what the guidelines with your wife and you why AA discourage OS friends outside of group sessions. (Again if I am right). Did she she establish with your wife and you what those guidelines where, how your wife kept them and how she broke them. Did she discuss how breaking them would cause anyone to doubt? Again context please. Link to post Share on other sites
S2B Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Your wife isn't working a solid program. It shouldn't take this much effort to have someone you love actually show you respect. Since your wife keeps wiggling away from being decent to you - just end it. Begging someone to treat you right isn't what Love looks like. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Author rocky2marie Posted January 13, 2017 Author Share Posted January 13, 2017 Er AA itself I believes is very cautious about OS friends. If I am right, again right, your MC needs to go. Third strike she's out. But again I need to ask for context. Did she share with your wife what the guidelines with your wife and you why AA discourage OS friends outside of group sessions. (Again if I am right). Did she she establish with your wife and you what those guidelines where, how your wife kept them and how she broke them. Did she discuss how breaking them would cause anyone to doubt? Again context please. It's obviously been discussed that her not telling me about OS AA friend was a breach of trust. But my wife is very convincing -- and she simply blames me. "I was afraid because i knew he'd be jealous" "Things weren't good at the time with us in general" "It was literally nothing. About as significant an acquaintance as...(friend's husband or friend of ours together) She said spoke to him a few times in 2010. Went to a few meetings with him. Then kept in touch over Facebook primarily and never saw him again until three years later at one of our sons soccer games. (his kid was in the league) She even introduced me to him -- but not as a "my friend from AA" I thought nothing of it just assumed he was dad of one of the kids. Then I saw her text to him in dec 2015 "What's your address? I made xmas cards this year. Can't wait to send you one xo" Seemed like more than just an acquaintance. She got very pissed off over me snooping into her email first off. Then about not wanting her to have her own male friends in general (that aren't friends of both of us) Not really true. Just be nice to ****ing KNOW their names. "I had mostly male friends before we met. You weren't into that so I dropped them all." Which if it's true was an overreaction. I never told her not to have guy friends. Just wanted to know who they were. So she said she resented it. And at the time, just starting out in AA and still hating me, she decided to rebel and just have guy friends in the program. I just didn't find out until six years later. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Lucky Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Your wife isn't working a solid program. Amen. rocky2marie, a 12 Steps program isn't a Chinese Menu, you don't get to pick some parts (fellowship) to follow and ignore others (honesty and amends). Your wife is using AA as a social club, a fairly common detour from real recovery. The problem is I hear things I don't want to and become very reactive. i.e.: "I need to flirt" "I'm getting older and want attention from OS". "If in a perfect world where you wouldn't be affected I'd like to experience falling in love again. But I'd never actually do it" ?? All of this pretty much guarantees you'll be here expressing the same angst years from now... Mr. Lucky Link to post Share on other sites
Author rocky2marie Posted January 13, 2017 Author Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) Mr. Lucky All of this pretty much guarantees you'll be here expressing the same angst years from now... You've hit the crux of it Mr Lucky. I've quoted this exact thing in couples therapy over and over. "If you're saying you want new love at 43 what's going to happen at 48? I'd rather get free now than put five more years into a doomed enterprise". She and therapist agree on same terms: "Trust is a choice you have to make for yourself Rocky". She looks me in the eyes "I've never actually cheated on you for 15 years. Can't I get some profs for that??" I'd almost rather she had than a pressure cooker build up for ruination later. Edited January 13, 2017 by rocky2marie Link to post Share on other sites
Jersey born raised Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Actually ???? Who is this IC? What is her background. Link to post Share on other sites
Author rocky2marie Posted January 13, 2017 Author Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) Therapist actually had her leave the room and confronted me: "why don't you believe her? I believe her and I've been doing this 20 years". Whole thing has become a referendum on me rather than her: I'm controlling, jealous, and insecure etc. Therapist like I said advocates "polyamory" (very liberal we live in SF) So no surprise on his POV. He sees it as a feminist issue and will always uphold her right to play at least in heart and mind as no problem. Edited January 13, 2017 by rocky2marie Link to post Share on other sites
S2B Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 It doesn't matter if she didn't "technically" cheat. She has created mistrust and still,even now, wishes to flirt and create drama. And the therapist seems to side with her instead of acknowledge ill feelings she has created within this "partnership". Looks like the terms of your marriage aren't on stable ground - and given that your wife isn't willing to completely be honest and completely change - it appears she is leaving you few options... You stay and can't trust her - or YOU divorce her knowing that there's no trust within the M Link to post Share on other sites
Author rocky2marie Posted January 14, 2017 Author Share Posted January 14, 2017 If i did divorce her hard to imagine being able to trust anyone again. The guy who'd marry my wife after her mid-life would be the lucky son of a bitch. I saw it happen to a friend of mine. Wife just went wild at 47. ****ed a bunch of guys, got it out of her system completely. Got remarried and is the image of stability now. Really nice guy and got totally ****ed. All this stuff makes me hate people so much. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Blunt Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 By Rocky Therapist like I said advocates "polyamory" (very liberal we live in SF) So no surprise on his POV. He sees it as a feminist issue and will always uphold her right to play at least in heart and mind as no problem. By Blunt Just convinces me more that I was right when I posted to you several days ago to kick your therapist in the nuts and get another therapist. By Rocky Well about a year ago she started working out all the time, changed her hair to platinum blonde and started having extremely loud passionate sex in her sleep. About three times a week. By Blunt Your wife has been replacing you with her thoughts and dreams; in plain English, you are not her number one man and she treats you like shyt. That would be enough for me even if it was proven that she has not had other men’s penis in her body at some point. However, you are in total control of your life and actions. You are either going to compromise and stay with her of you are going to make a plan and get going on that plan RIGHT NOW. That plan’s number one objective is for you to get a lot stronger in self-sufficiency and get emotionally strong enough so that you will realize that you will make it with her or without her. If you do not execute the plan then you will be compromising your self-respect as your wife will continue to disrespect you. Get stronger then make your move! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
road Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Therapist actually had her leave the room and confronted me: "why don't you believe her? I believe her and I've been doing this 20 years". Whole thing has become a referendum on me rather than her: I'm controlling, jealous, and insecure etc. Therapist like I said advocates "polyamory" (very liberal we live in SF) So no surprise on his POV. He sees it as a feminist issue and will always uphold her right to play at least in heart and mind as no problem. Time is way overdue to fire this counselor. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
road Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 If i did divorce her hard to imagine being able to trust anyone again. The guy who'd marry my wife after her mid-life would be the lucky son of a bitch. I saw it happen to a friend of mine. Wife just went wild at 47. ****ed a bunch of guys, got it out of her system completely. Got remarried and is the image of stability now. Really nice guy and got totally ****ed. All this stuff makes me hate people so much. Did they remarry each other? Link to post Share on other sites
Jersey born raised Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 The therapist is the control freak. He gives the profession a bad name. He is trying to stuff poly crap down your throat. Do argue with him he knows what he knows, everyone should obey him, the he'll with everything else. He is the worst possible choice for your marriage. He most likely feels your wife is entitled to a poly relationship and if you will not give her one she should divorce you, ethically divorce you of course. Do an online background search on him for complaints etc. Find a new therapist for yourself. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author rocky2marie Posted January 14, 2017 Author Share Posted January 14, 2017 Yeah it's hard around here to find a more conservative therapist tho! It's San Francisco. The more I write about it on these boards the more I'm remembering things over the years I didn't like. I've always felt my wife was too loosey goosey and flirtatious. When we first met she'd do these Craigslist ride shares between L.A. and S.F. with complete strangers. I remember telling her NO one in L.A. (she was new to L.A.) just gets in the car with a stranger. Of course they were always men. And I remember once when our child was really small she took him to the airport in long beach to watch planes take off. And some guy pulled up in his plane and offered her a joy ride. And she went in this stranger's Cessna with my 1 year old son and sent me photos of it. I never confronted her in any brash way about it. I expressed my disdain though and she now says she felt really guilty and "taken down" by these things. I just remember not feeling good about it. And then once at a party before our kids were born these two very drunk brothers started hitting on her extremely hard and slurrly told me "we're gonna **** your girlfriend dude what are you gonna do about it?" I immediately punched him out, then grabbed the idiot brother and threw him off the porch. Was the only actual fight I'd been in my adult life. I also remember being much more angry at her. Because she was smiling and batting eyelashes as they were hitting on her instead of just walking toward me or at least away. I don't think she liked the fighting part but she was definitely into them hitting on her. Something she vehemently denies to this day. "I just didn't know what to do so I froze and started smiling" Any woman I'd ever dated previously would have thrown her drink in their faces and walked off. So anyway... there was that very raw incident. I never said anything but a part of me didn't trust her since. And she's felt she needed to hide who she really was. Maybe it's why when she took sex away during the pregnancy I felt actually zero remorse when I cheated. Felt entrapped...doomed to be with someone who was maybe never going to "actually cheat" but always drive me crazy by behaving in this sort of ferile way. It's like having your boundaries tested and masculinity constantly put in check. I cracked down on it enough and threatened to leave enough over the years that she straightened up and completely buried it. But now that she realizes I'm here to stay maybe she's just rolling out her real self again. Link to post Share on other sites
Jersey born raised Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Was it this thread a poster who responded to a lot of red flags but no smoking gun: "they have given you a lot of reason to divorce, but none to stay"? Controlling ? You do not get to control her or tell her what to do, but she has NO INPUT ON HOW YOU RESPOND !!! Look you lived isolated and alone for six years, six years without a simple kiss or touch, six years in despair and misery. That was her choice to your choice. You where alone and dying of cancer. As you laid their alone she simply watched why waiting to die. I urge you to continue to try to save your marriage but consult a lawyer and out together a post divorce life. For example: can you stay in your current school district and preserve your son's social network? What I am driving at is study what the courts think is "best interest of the child" and structure both your current parenting methods and future parenting methods to maximize custody. 50/50 legal custody with you as the primary household should be your goal. Focus on that and it will help you clear your mind. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Jersey born raised Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Bye the way don't know the tone you take when discussing these matters but it is best if you discuss in the abstract. Be calm do not let your emotions drive your behavior, rather let the control the context of what is said. Again context not tone. This is the only way to deal with DARVO. Short version of DARVO* DARVO refers to a reaction perpetrators of wrong doing, particularly sexual offenders, may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior. DARVO stands for "Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender." The perpetrator or offender may Deny the behavior, Attack the individual doing the confronting, and Reverse the roles of Victim and Offender such that the perpetrator assumes the victim role and turns the true victim -- or the whistle blower -- into an alleged offender. This occurs, for instance, when an actually guilty perpetrator assumes the role of "falsely accused and*attacks the accuser's credibility or even if the event occurred. * **term "DARVO" near the end of a 1997 publication about her primary research focus, "betrayal trauma theory."* "By denying, attacking ' *and reversing perpetrators into victims, reality gets even more confusing and unspeakable for the real victim. .... These perpetrator reactions increase the need for betrayal blindness. If the victim does speak out and gets this level of attack, she quickly gets the idea that silence is safer." (Veldhuis & Freyd, 1999. p 274). It didn't happen (an instance) or It rarely happens (a type of event) It wasn't harmful *Put together they can take the form: "It didn't happen, but if it did, it wasn't that bad" or "It rarely happens, but when it does it isn't harmful." The two claims both serve to deny, but they depend upon different sorts of evidence. They may both be true, but they are sometimes somewhat suspicious when claimed simultaneously (or by the same person at different times), as for instance can occur in response to allegations of rape or child sexual abuse. Bing/yahoo "gray rocking" as well. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Blunt Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 By Rocky But now that she realizes I'm here to stay maybe she's just rolling out her real self again. So you have decided to stay with her no matter how she treats you? If that is your decsion then you will be a door mat and remain the 3rd or fourth place person in her life in the years to come. PS Your internet name of Rocky does not match Rocky Marciano the undefeated boxer 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Author rocky2marie Posted January 14, 2017 Author Share Posted January 14, 2017 Gray rocking is interesting. Definitely going to try out flattening my reactions to ****. Link to post Share on other sites
Jersey born raised Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 What have you read ? Check with mods before posting links (I've collect a few warnings for this but no bans). Link to post Share on other sites
Author rocky2marie Posted January 16, 2017 Author Share Posted January 16, 2017 Nothing just online stuff. "be boring" if asked to engage in anything dramatic. Couldn't agree more. Link to post Share on other sites
Jersey born raised Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Your thoughts? Link to post Share on other sites
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