Why do you believe in God, Jesus, or an afterlife?

[OpenBook]

Hmmm, I don't quite agree with that. I think religion must change in response to societal changes. For instance, religion must change in response to science. I don't think the core beliefs of Christianity have changed. The belief in the Trinity for example. The belief in life after death as another example. I think that the Bible is trying to communicate a religious truth that is interpreted in different ways based on the situation.

 

My own faith has changed over the years. The faith I had as a child is not the faith I have today. My faith has responded in different ways to my life experiences. I think that faith and the Bible are living and breathing, and they will necessarily have to change as time goes on.

 

Yes! Change, but (at the same time) not change. A dichotomy so typical of God. Opposite things that can both be true. Things that we humanoids cannot wrap our brains around because we simply don't have the capacity to. Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, but at the same time makes perfect sense. Drives me bananas sometimes!!

[TheFinalWord]

I don't think I will ever have rock solid faith. That seems like a huge long shot for me, but I like to believe in God and an afterlife.

 

There either is a God or there isn't....both thoughts are frightening.

[Cablebandit]

There either is a God or there isn't....both thoughts are frightening.

 

Why frightening if there isn't a god?

[TheFinalWord]

Why frightening if there isn't a god?

 

It's a famous saying...out of respect for OP, I'm not going to get into a debate in this thread.

[Cablebandit]

It's a famous saying...out of respect for OP, I'm not going to get into a debate in this thread.

 

I looked it up....gravity will keep us where we are so no fear there.

[BC1980]

There either is a God or there isn't....both thoughts are frightening.

 

Life seems grim with no God or no afterlife. How awful never to see your family or friends again. How awful to die and cease to exist. I can't think of anything more depressing. The question is: did we created God, Jesus, and afterlife, ect. in response to how awful the idea of ceasing to exist seems? I don't think I will ever be certain of the answer. I can't simply will myself to believe something.

[wed4ever]

Hmmm, I don't quite agree with that. I think religion must change in response to societal changes. For instance, religion must change in response to science. I don't think the core beliefs of Christianity have changed. The belief in the Trinity for example. The belief in life after death as another example. I think that the Bible is trying to communicate a religious truth that is interpreted in different ways based on the situation.

 

My own faith has changed over the years. The faith I had as a child is not the faith I have today. My faith has responded in different ways to my life experiences. I think that faith and the Bible are living and breathing, and they will necessarily have to change as time goes on.

 

You are 100% correct in everything you say. Religion, faith, knowledge, culture and society has in fact changed.

 

"I think religion must change", you said quote.

 

But god doesn't change. Do you see the problem with that? Why is the bible the perfect inerrant word of god that contains everything we need if it just changes all the time? Was it perfect 2000 year ago? Is it perfect today? What standard should I go by to determine what is, and what isn't relevant for today? After all, god doesn't change, right?

 

I think what you are seeing is just a morphing of religious beliefs down through the ages.

[BC1980]

You are 100% correct in everything you say. Religion, faith, knowledge, culture and society has in fact changed.

 

"I think religion must change", you said quote.

 

But god doesn't change. Do you see the problem with that? Why is the bible the perfect inerrant word of god that contains everything we need if it just changes all the time? Was it perfect 2000 year ago? Is it perfect today? What standard should I go by to determine what is, and what isn't relevant for today? After all, god doesn't change, right?

 

I think what you are seeing is just a morphing of religious beliefs down through the ages.

 

I think it depends on the idea that the Bible is inerrant, which I don't believe. I also don't believe the Bible contains everything we need to know. Religion is a man made construct that is dependent upon our interpretation of scripture. Religion is our attempt to understand God based on the only evidence we have, which is textual. The reader writes the text. The text only has the meaning we give it, and that meaning is open to interpretation, living, and breathing. At least, that is my belief. My understanding of the creation story is not the same as my understanding as a child. I see something different everytime I read it.

 

I think your question is perfect because I have no idea, which standards you should go by. That is the problem. We can see there are so many denominations because people don't agree. Also, what significance to we give our consciences and personal experiences with it comes to religious belief? Do they supersede religious teachings and textual interpretations?

[Buddhist]

I've always known from my earliest memories that I have lived before. It's a strange thing for a child to know. There was always just this sense that people are immortal in spirit if not in body. This knowing did not come from religious indoctrination because I have no faith (despite my username).

 

There has never been a time in my life where I have been able to buy into existentialism. People can argue with me all they like, I don't buy the line we are flesh, blood and bone only and cease to exist when the body dies. I don't care if someone wants to level the 'irrational' charge at me. Go ahead. In any case if it [existentialism] is true then none of us will ever know or be able to verify it. You would actually have to be an immortal spirit to verify that you don't exist after the body dies. That's irony for you.

 

Either way to my way of thinking believing in existentialism turns the life experience into hell basically. Everything is meaningless chaos and we are all victims of circumstance living in the midst of gross injustice and iniquity. The innocent suffer at the hands of the malicious etc. The supreme irony that rejection of an afterlife actually renders the mythical hell real. Yeah, no thanks you can keep that concept.

 

Anyhow why do I believe in a supreme being, order to the chaos according to something I can't presently perceive and the notion that the soul is immortal? Because I want to, because it gives what would otherwise be an intolerably painful experience meaning. Because it quietens my anxious brain and enables me to live in a state other than paranoia about dying and hopelessness about there being no rhyme nor reason to my existence. In short, because it allows me to operate with some measure of stability in a world that is inherently unstable.

 

Of course all faith can be explained away as imaginary phenomena originating from the circuits of the brain. So could the entirety of reality actually. And before you know it we are all living in the Matrix and subscribing to conspiracy theories while crafting tinfoil hats. The thing is, faith can't be proven and to be honest it doesn't need to be. Even if it is nothing more than a way of thinking that allows one to cope with life it's still relevant, otherwise this planet would be more hellish than it already is if a the vast majority of people became existentially unhinged.

[JuanDelToro]

I'm a Satanist and occultist. I don't abide by any dogmatic religion that promotes fear and guilt to indoctrinate and control, nor do I believe in manmade fairytales like the Bible or the Quran. Yes there are some truths in there, but greatly twisted to serve the dogma.

 

I don't have an issue with Christians or Muslims as long as they don't try to proselytize me, with most of my friends and partners being Christians but I have an issue with the damage that these religions have inflicted on humanity for centuries (and still do).

 

I'm spiritual and I believe in many spiritual beings, from elementals that preceded humanity, to archetypes, ancient planetary deities and manmade thought forms, egregorians etc.

In that regard most spirits within the Christian paradigm are that exactly, manmade though forms that escaped the collective conscious and exist autonomously. Very few of them are actual pre-existing entities, Archangel Michael is one.

On the other hand the "unwanted" spirits, the ones that didn't fit the dogma, that were portrayed as all evil (demonification) in their majority are actually ancient deities. Sumerian, Mesopotamian, Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek etc.

 

It's debatable if the man Christ ever existed or not but Jesus grew as an egregore with the evolution of Christianity through collective thought. People don't realize that he is actually the dual nature of Lucifer. Both are one and the same, both are "the morning star".

 

In regards to God and if exists or not, the answer can be found within the words of the Greek Philosopher Parmenides: "“All things are one, and this one is Being”.

 

Afterlife is another complicated matter. We are the Gods of our creation, this apply to the now and to the after.

This is what dogma has taken away from people by force and replaced it with an immoral limiting belief (it's immoral to deny your own nature) and further went in creating its own self serving paradigm. You sin you go to hell you do as I say you go to heaven. Righto!

 

Both Hell and heaven are forced inhibitions. They don't exist within uninhibited consciousness.

 

We are meant to embrace spirituality, nurture our will and discover our true nature, to ascent to a higher self and become one with the cosmos. There is so much more waiting for us beyond.

Edited June 10, 2016 by JuanDelToro

[Sabella]

Juan, can you explain to me what it means to be a satanist? Why do you choose that label? I honestly don't know very much about it except what I've learned through mainstream media etc. It freaks me out a bit.

 

I actually agree with a lot of points you have brought forward. I'm a very spiritual person and believe there are a lot of entities around us and a lot of things people don't see or refuse to see. I don't have a label for myself, I take a lot of things I like from other belief systems and toss out what I don't like or agree with. So no organized religion has ever really held my interest.

 

I ask out of genuine curiosity, as I think something along the lines of satanism or dark arts it the one thing I don't abide by or am comfortable with.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Sabella

[JuanDelToro]

Sabella. It depends what type of Satanist one is. A theistic Satanist worships Satan as an actual being, a God. An atheistic Satanist perceives Satan as a notion, an amalgamation of beliefs that oppose the indoctrination of dogmatic religions.

Satan in both accounts is the adversary, the opposer, a rebel. Satan is just one name (originated from a Hebrew word) given of many. Enki, Saturn, Cronus, Demiurge are a few.

 

Personally I stand somewhere in the middle. I accept his existence and abide by the notion, but I don't worship him as a God, instead i respect Him. I use such label because religion makes me sick and I oppose it. If you read history, the crimes commited under the name of God, the cruelty and barbarism, you will understand where I'm coming from.

 

To be a Satanist has nothing to do with what religion (and in extend the media) wants you to believe. Like the human sacrifices, general evilness and such.

 

A Satanist opposes the stupidification, control, fear mongering, guilt of sin, etc. that comes with dogma. A satanist embraces knowledge, freedom of speech and choice, spirituality, human nature. A satanist glorifies the self and wishes no harm to others.

 

Regarding the darks arts you mentioned, I'm guessing you're talking about Left Hand paths such as black magick.

I agree it's not everyone's cup of tea, but there're also greatly misconceived and misinterpreted.

Dark doesn't necessarily mean evil as most understand it. Darkness is creation and a state where energy can be drawn from. Same as the light. Both can be used for good or bad.

Energy is neutral, it's how we use it that makes a difference. This applies to human behavior in general.

[Sabella]

Thank you for explaining your interpretation, I agree with many points you make. I am a voracious reader and I do know a lot of the history behind religion.

 

I do appreciate you taking the time to explain.

[Jabron1]

I don't believe in a god or afterlife.

 

I do have a certain respect for Christianity, however.

 

A Satanist opposes the stupidification, control, fear mongering, guilt of sin, etc. that comes with dogma. A satanist embraces knowledge, freedom of speech and choice, spirituality, human nature. A satanist glorifies the self and wishes no harm to others.

 

Why do you need to define yourself a 'satanist' to accept this? Personally, I concluded that satanism is irrelevant.

 

I've read the likes of Levay. I think you are taking this more seriously than he did.

[JuanDelToro]

Jabron. LaVeys Satanism is strictly on the atheistic side.

As I previously said, I stand somewhere in the middle between theistic and atheistic views.

Taking that in account, agnosticism, atheism and other similar beliefs cannot fit my paradigm, especially when it's taken in consideration that they certainly don't promote or encourage self-serve like Satanism does. They just promote confusion and encourage apathy.

 

You've said that you hold respect for Christianity, does Christianity holds any respect on you though?

I gather that you very much like women and you enjoy your time with many. For that reason you're being labeled as a sinner, you're being threatened with eternal damnation, your masculinity is belittled, your sexuality is ridiculed.

 

I don't respect anyone or anything that doesn't respect me. This is a defining aspect of the Satanic nature and the reasoning behind using the label "Satanist".

 

Acknowledging satanism as irrelevant is to acknowledge Christianity obsolete. The Christian dogma is anything but obsolete, thus Satanism is highly relevant.

Edited June 11, 2016 by JuanDelToro

[TheFinalWord]

Life seems grim with no God or no afterlife. How awful never to see your family or friends again. How awful to die and cease to exist. I can't think of anything more depressing. The question is: did we created God, Jesus, and afterlife, ect. in response to how awful the idea of ceasing to exist seems? I don't think I will ever be certain of the answer. I can't simply will myself to believe something.

 

Good point. We can't be certain, but there are some philosophical arguments that seem to indicate these desires for an afterlife are sort of a self-authenticating argument.

 

CS Lewis has a famous argument that says the fact we desire for there to be a God and an afterlife is an argument for the existence of God and the afterlife.

 

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." — C.S. Lewis

 

Plantinga (Prof of Philosophy at Notre Dame) has expanded this argument:

 

[Jabron1]

You've said that you hold respect for Christianity, does Christianity holds any respect on you though?

I gather that you very much like women and you enjoy your time with many. For that reason you're being labeled as a sinner, you're being threatened with eternal damnation, your masculinity is belittled, your sexuality is ridiculed.

 

I don't respect anyone or anything that doesn't respect me. This is a defining aspect of the Satanic nature and the reasoning behind using the label "Satanist".

 

I couldn't disagree more.

 

Christianity has a million times more respect for my masculinity than the current culture of third/fourth wave feminism does.

 

Acknowledging satanism as irrelevant is to acknowledge Christianity obsolete. The Christian dogma is anything but obsolete, thus Satanism is highly relevant.

 

No mate, you are way behind the times.

 

Perhaps this is because we are from different cultures though? In the UK we don't have harsh Catholicism. The church of England is a very different thing.

 

You are setting up Satanism as some sort of adversarial position to Christianity. As if Christianity is the power to fight against, and you are some sort of rebel.

 

It's the 21st century. Christianity is on the ropes. It's being attacked and ever more degraded by 'progressives' as part of large scale social-engineering.

 

I understand who my real enemies are, and it certainly isn't the church

 

I have no beef with them.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Jabron1

[JuanDelToro]

I couldn't disagree more.

 

Christianity has a million times more respect for my masculinity than the current culture of third/fourth wave feminism does.

 

 

 

No mate, you are way behind the times.

 

Perhaps this is because we are from different cultures though? In the UK we don't have harsh Catholicism. The church of England is a very different thing.

 

You are setting up Satanism as some sort of adversarial position to Christianity. As if Christianity is the power to fight against, and you are some sort of rebel.

 

It's the 21st century. Christianity is on the ropes. It's being attacked and ever more degraded by 'progressives' as part of large scale social-engineering.

 

I understand who my real enemies are, and it certainly isn't the church

 

I have no beef with them.

 

Mate this is not an adversarial position against Christianity, it's an adversarial position against religious dogma in general. But not for the reasons you think, its not a rebel without cause type of thing.

It's rather an internalized process, a purification of the psyche. Deliverance from such inhibitions to attain the natural behavioral state of a human being which is defined solely by archetypes.

 

You can accept or not, it doesn't matter really as this doesn't change the fact that your inhibitions and belief systems are influenced by dogma to a significant degree and on a deep level.

It's a societal paradigm bigger that us both.

Not much different to feminism. Though, feminism and in extend emasculation exist for a very short period of time, so the integration is somewhat superficial. Easier to identify and oppose.

 

Christianity may well be on the ropes, but the belief is well ingrained. It'll take a long time before it dissipates, thus a proactive opposition is necessary to repair an individual's consciousness in a timely manner.

Edited June 12, 2016 by JuanDelToro

[BC1980]

Good point. We can't be certain, but there are some philosophical arguments that seem to indicate these desires for an afterlife are sort of a self-authenticating argument.

 

CS Lewis has a famous argument that says the fact we desire for there to be a God and an afterlife is an argument for the existence of God and the afterlife.

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." — C.S. Lewis

 

Plantinga (Prof of Philosophy at Notre Dame) has expanded this argument:

 

 

I remember that C.S Lewis quote. Do you remember what book it's from? I'd like to read about the argument in more depth. I guess my question would then be: why does the fact that we imagine an afterlife mean there is an afterlife? I think you could just as easily say that the fact we imagine an afterlife is our longing for there to be something better than this life. But that doesn't make it real. It starts getting circular.

[OpenBook]

I remember that C.S Lewis quote. Do you remember what book it's from? I'd like to read about the argument in more depth. I guess my question would then be: why does the fact that we imagine an afterlife mean there is an afterlife? I think you could just as easily say that the fact we imagine an afterlife is our longing for there to be something better than this life. But that doesn't make it real. It starts getting circular.

 

No, you're right, it doesn't make it real. But I don't think that's the argument being made. I think what C.S. Lewis is saying is that WE WERE BUILT with this innate desire for something other than what's being offered in the world we live in. The fact that we were designed this way, points to the likelihood that there is something beyond this world that we were meant for, something that would explain WHY we were built this way.

[BC1980]

No, you're right, it doesn't make it real. But I don't think that's the argument being made. I think what C.S. Lewis is saying is that WE WERE BUILT with this innate desire for something other than what's being offered in the world we live in. The fact that we were designed this way, points to the likelihood that there is something beyond this world that we were meant for, something that would explain WHY we were built this way.

 

Why do you think we were purposefully designed this way? I think that would be my problem with that argument. You have to believe that there is some force out there (God?) that designed us this way on purpose. And there would obviously be no evidence for that idea. It all becomes a circular argument.

[TheFinalWord]

I remember that C.S Lewis quote. Do you remember what book it's from? I'd like to read about the argument in more depth. I guess my question would then be: why does the fact that we imagine an afterlife mean there is an afterlife? I think you could just as easily say that the fact we imagine an afterlife is our longing for there to be something better than this life. But that doesn't make it real. It starts getting circular.

 

It's from Mere Christianity.

 

This link provides more depth to the argument as well as answers to objections:

 

Argument From Desire by Peter Kreeft

[Cablebandit]

I don't have a desire for a god or an afterlife....next.

[Justanaverageguy]

I'm not religious at all - but I do have my own personal type of spirituality. For me people arguing about the existence of god is to similar to if a group of trees got together and argued about whether a forest existed or not. As the saying goes most people can't see the forest for the trees.

 

An individuals perspective and experience of life as a singular "self" prevents them from seeing how the collective creates something larger.

[karena70]

Since the topic is why do you believe in God and not "why I think it's stupid" I don't understand the posts about NOT believing. I believe in God because in my own life I have seen the value of faith.