I'm having trouble with our open marriage

[BettyDraper]

No no no....PLEASE don't think of staying with your husband for decades.

You deserve far better than this situation.

 

Keep talking to the OW's husband so that he can help you feel strong enough to walk away. To hell with your husband's reservations since he is in love with someone else. Never give someone more respect and consideration than they give you. That's being a doormat.

[beautifulinside2]

Your body was violated and now you are being violated again by your husband. There are several couples on here with open marriages, many who are successful at it and adhere to the boundaries. Sneaking out to dates, texting non stop, and now "I Love you". What more do you need to know? Do you want to sit around and wait for him to leave you? Do you want to be his second choice if she decides she doesn't want to leave her husband?

 

You need to talk to her husband, your husband no longer get the right to tell you what not to do. If you want to salvage what's left of your marriage, then you tell him that he needs to stop talking to this woman immediately and you tell him why. You tell him you went through his telephone because you were concerned for him and state of your marriage, and explain that your worse suspicions have come true. Then ask him what does he want to do it about it, because you want him to stop talking to her.

If he says no, then you have your answer. Leave because there is no getting better from here and he will continue to disrespect you and the marriage. Find friendship in the OW husband and get the strength to leave.

[elaine567]

 

Then ask him what does he want to do it about it, because you want him to stop talking to her.

 

Why?

What good will that do?

He may agree to stop seeing "this" woman, but he still needs sex, so he will move quickly on to the next one to fulfil his needs.

He associates sex with love, so no doubt the next woman he has sex with he is likely to fall in love with too, as he needs the closeness.

How will that help the OP?

[Mumbles]

I respect the opinions coming to light here which quite obviously differ from my own. I really do. I see what angle they are coming from and under different circumstances I'd be tempted to agree fully.

 

The OP's situation is quite atypical. Its certainly not the norm of a 'standard' relationship and it differs significantly from a standard open marriage too (if there even is such a thing as standard in this divergent lifestyle).

 

Its pretty easy, given the lop sided nature of this 'open' agreement, to simply view the husband as a sort of cheating man having an affair. There are, of course, physical and emotional links to the typical affair type deal here, we can see that, and its progressing too by all accounts.

 

Strangely, for me, I'm not putting a lot of stead in the texts on the husbands phone. At face value there seems to be a lot of damning evidence there, but of what? Under 'normal' couples circumstances, those texts would trigger in me an immediate response, run to a lawyer, quickly, and exit the marriage.

 

But this isn't a normal scenario. Open marriages present traps to the participants, which, because of brain chemicals, are all too easy to fall foul of. I'm seeing the current situation as no more than a man who's drowning in oxytocin. The words, the texts, are an expression of that, I think. "I'd rather be with you", yes, ouch, can't be easy to read, but what does it mean? honestly now? He'd rather be having sex with his new sex-buddy than sitting at home feeling horny - no disrespect meant to the OP here as marriages are more than sex, a -LOT- more.

 

I'm not really defending the husband here, he's made and is currently submerged in a serious error of judgement and lack of empathy towards his wife - no doubt there. Things should have been recognised and rectified well before we reached this point. Is it too late already? Maybe. Could be. At a certain point, there is no return, even if the OW relationship ultimately dies a normal death.

 

Its been established that its unlikely the OW will leave her husband. There has been mention of a prenup which she wouldn't be happy to see exercised. Given third party anecdotes of her apparent demeanor towards her husband it sounds like a -lot- of water has passed under the bridge there.

 

This thing with the OW is destined to be, at its worst incarnation, a torrid sex affair that will fizzle as quickly as it started. No disrespect here towards either the OW or the husband on this account. It happens.

 

I've had liaisons with OW in my open marriage which are far far more passionate than my relationship with my wife, and my wife and I -are- a passionate couple. Its just the roll of the dice and the 'x' factor, clickiness thing. Sometimes we will bump into people who are sexually very compatible, but in other aspects, are never going to be a good mate. When you play the 'open' game, its only a matter of time before you hit these folks, its inevitable - the trick is to recognise it and act accordingly. Not easy, brain chemicals are fighting you all the way.

 

But enough of that.

 

JRP: I'm not easily pulling out of the thread how you currently feel about your husband and your marriage as a whole, aside from the sexual. I know right at this moment you're angry and hurt, because of the texts you've seen (and I did warn you - theres nothing good to be gained from looking ... unless you're building a case for 'at fault' divorce). Before that, you were feeling insecure and emotionally starved ... all natural and I have enormous empathy for your situation.

 

However, other aspects of your marriage ... how are they? Very recent events will skew this answer but: spending time together? Are you enjoying each others company? "Stirring the porridge", in other words, the normal everyday mundane living of ones life, is it, with your husband, a source of contentment and general wellbeing - I know I know, last few months, big challenges there, but before that?

 

Hows the friendship with your husband? Hopes, dreams, plans, future? Sex and for now, children aside?

 

I ask all this because there is little point pursuing a path of recovery, of the coupling, if there are not strong reasons and strong feelings to make the journey worthwhile.

[beautifulinside2]

Why?

What good will that do?

He may agree to stop seeing "this" woman, but he still needs sex, so he will move quickly on to the next one to fulfil his needs.

He associates sex with love, so no doubt the next woman he has sex with he is likely to fall in love with too, as he needs the closeness.

How will that help the OP?

 

OP needs to face the reality of the situation. There is nothing more enlightening then a person telling you they are in love with someone else and will not cease contact. No amount of pride or lack of self worth would allow you to stay with them. She needs to hear it in order for it to be her reality because clearly reading his messages and reading our messages are not enough for her.

[Mumbles]

Why?

What good will that do?

He may agree to stop seeing "this" woman, but he still needs sex, so he will move quickly on to the next one to fulfil his needs.

 

Yes, and then another and then another. Theres no inherent problem there, for those who can entertain the notion of an open marriage, so long as there is at least some emotional gap, distance.

 

 

He associates sex with love, so no doubt the next woman he has sex with he is likely to fall in love with too, as he needs the closeness.

How will that help the OP?

 

This is, speaking generically now, one of womens pet hates about men. Men, in general, -do- equate sex and love. You don't have sex with me, so you can't love me ... it drives women bonkers.

 

At the same time, counterintuitively perhaps, given the above, men seem more able to separate love and sex when it comes to random hookups.

 

We'd have to actually ask the husband to get the true skinny here, but I'd bet a lot of money that when he's saying he wants 'emotion' or 'feeling' or whatever in his sexual activities, what he's really talking about is passion. Moving through a lot of partners, and somewhat careful selection, perhaps, of those partners, is likely to give him what he wants here, without also triggering the thought of these women having his babies in the future.

[beautifulinside2]

I respect the opinions coming to light here which quite obviously differ from my own. I really do. I see what angle they are coming from and under different circumstances I'd be tempted to agree fully.

 

The OP's situation is quite atypical. Its certainly not the norm of a 'standard' relationship and it differs significantly from a standard open marriage too (if there even is such a thing as standard in this divergent lifestyle).

 

Its pretty easy, given the lop sided nature of this 'open' agreement, to simply view the husband as a sort of cheating man having an affair. There are, of course, physical and emotional links to the typical affair type deal here, we can see that, and its progressing too by all accounts.

 

Strangely, for me, I'm not putting a lot of stead in the texts on the husbands phone. At face value there seems to be a lot of damning evidence there, but of what? Under 'normal' couples circumstances, those texts would trigger in me an immediate response, run to a lawyer, quickly, and exit the marriage.

 

But this isn't a normal scenario. Open marriages present traps to the participants, which, because of brain chemicals, are all too easy to fall foul of. I'm seeing the current situation as no more than a man who's drowning in oxytocin. The words, the texts, are an expression of that, I think. "I'd rather be with you", yes, ouch, can't be easy to read, but what does it mean? honestly now? He'd rather be having sex with his new sex-buddy than sitting at home feeling horny - no disrespect meant to the OP here as marriages are more than sex, a -LOT- more.

 

I'm not really defending the husband here, he's made and is currently submerged in a serious error of judgement and lack of empathy towards his wife - no doubt there. Things should have been recognised and rectified well before we reached this point. Is it too late already? Maybe. Could be. At a certain point, there is no return, even if the OW relationship ultimately dies a normal death.

 

Its been established that its unlikely the OW will leave her husband. There has been mention of a prenup which she wouldn't be happy to see exercised. Given third party anecdotes of her apparent demeanor towards her husband it sounds like a -lot- of water has passed under the bridge there.

 

This thing with the OW is destined to be, at its worst incarnation, a torrid sex affair that will fizzle as quickly as it started. No disrespect here towards either the OW or the husband on this account. It happens.

 

I've had liaisons with OW in my open marriage which are far far more passionate than my relationship with my wife, and my wife and I -are- a passionate couple. Its just the roll of the dice and the 'x' factor, clickiness thing. Sometimes we will bump into people who are sexually very compatible, but in other aspects, are never going to be a good mate. When you play the 'open' game, its only a matter of time before you hit these folks, its inevitable - the trick is to recognise it and act accordingly. Not easy, brain chemicals are fighting you all the way.

 

But enough of that.

 

JRP: I'm not easily pulling out of the thread how you currently feel about your husband and your marriage as a whole, aside from the sexual. I know right at this moment you're angry and hurt, because of the texts you've seen (and I did warn you - theres nothing good to be gained from looking ... unless you're building a case for 'at fault' divorce). Before that, you were feeling insecure and emotionally starved ... all natural and I have enormous empathy for your situation.

 

However, other aspects of your marriage ... how are they? Very recent events will skew this answer but: spending time together? Are you enjoying each others company? "Stirring the porridge", in other words, the normal everyday mundane living of ones life, is it, with your husband, a source of contentment and general wellbeing - I know I know, last few months, big challenges there, but before that?

 

Hows the friendship with your husband? Hopes, dreams, plans, future? Sex and for now, children aside?

 

I ask all this because there is little point pursuing a path of recovery, of the coupling, if there are not strong reasons and strong feelings to make the journey worthwhile.

 

It's great to see an opinion from someone in an open marriage. You have made my point clear several times over with your response. How many times have you told a sex partner you loved them and you would rather be with them on vacation while you are on vacation with your wife/husband? How many times have you lied about where you were going to take your sex partner on a real date without sex? How many times have you actually gone on dates with a sex partner without your husband/wife knowing? There are clearly major issues here and although I'm not a huge fan of open marriages it takes an incredible amount of trust, self confidence, self esteem and honesty on both ends to make it successful. Without any or all of these components it will not work

[oldshirt]

I've said this in other threads and I know there are some other factors taking place here, but I think bad sex (or no sex) is the body's way of telling us that we aren't with the right person.

 

I know you've had past trauma, but I would still bet the farm if you got with the right person, you could be sexual.

 

Yes, you may always have some hang ups and insecurities and such, but the more I read here, the more I'm thinking a significant part of your sexual dysfunction is due to relationship/comfort/attraction issues with your husband.

 

t it is clear me that a good chunk of your sexual issue is do to your relationship or lack there of with your H.

 

 

Now that I have a little more time, let me elaborate on this a little more.

 

I know you have had a horrific trauma in the past and I in no way want to belittle that.

 

However, the more I read your posts, the LESS damaged and screwed up I think you are. I may not be very smooth-tongued but I mean that in a good way.

 

I don't think you are as damaged by your assault as you may be giving it credit for. Please keep reading and let me explain -

 

Even a normal, healthy, fully-functioning woman who has never experienced a sexual trauma, does not walk around in a state of sexual excitement and desire throughout the course of a normal day.

 

Some women may be consciously aware of a bit of a bump in her libido around ovulation, but the average woman on the street goes about her normal day moreless somewhat sexually inert until a man she finds acceptable starts to sex her up.

 

Additionally most women find a very very small percentage of men sexually desirable immediately upon encountering them. Very very very few men are so good looking and so sexy that women want to have sex with them by just seeing them.

 

I am a guy so give me a little leeway here but the standard pathway for a woman's sexual interest in a man is she encounters a man that at least meets her baseline level of acceptable looks, fitness, social status etc and they interact on personal level and they develop some interpersonal emotional connection and trust etc over a period of time and with that she starts to notice some things she finds sexy in him and she eventually notices some signs of attraction and desire within herself ------ie "tinglies."

 

From what you are describing with the OM's H, I do not see how this is not a perfectly normal and standard response.

 

Yes, both of you have some issues and I am not implying that you will soon be porn stars setting the sex world on fire.

 

But what I am saying is that I believe you are actually fully capable of having a workable sexual response - WITH THE RIGHT MAN.

 

Now I am also not necessarily saying that this other guy is the right guy for you. I am saying I do not think you are as damaged and left dysfunctional by your assault as you are thinking you are.

 

I think a significant portion of your sexual dysfunction IS WITH YOUR HUSBAND SPECIFICALLY.

 

Let me put it this way - even the most normal, healthy, horny woman's legs would slam shut if her partner were treating her the way he is treating you.

 

The fact that you are not tearing off your clothes and spreading your legs for him is not striking me unusual at all.

 

If I was doing and saying and acting like he is, my wife would not touch me with a ten foot pole.............and we were active swingers for many years.

 

I think you are more normal and healthy than you are giving yourself credit for.

 

I think a lot of your current sexual dysfunction is due to your relationship with your H and your situation.

 

If your underlying issues have anything to do with this, it is because it is making you not fully grasping how messed up and wrong this situation is.

 

Your assault and trauma is not making you sexually nonfunctional. It is your husband and this messed up scenario.

[Mumbles]

It's great to see an opinion from someone in an open marriage. You have made my point clear several times over with your response. How many times have you told a sex partner you loved them and you would rather be with them on vacation while you are on vacation with your wife/husband? How many times have you lied about where you were going to take your sex partner on a real date without sex?

 

Oh yes, your point is clear. I don't think, I hope, I haven't tried to whitewash that. As I've said more than once, husband and OW are well down a road they should -not- be on. I've also said though that this type of outcome is a trap for the new to this lifestyle, it can easily be made without preplanned intent.

 

In answer to the above, for me: Never.

 

 

How many times have you actually gone on dates with a sex partner without your husband/wife knowing?

 

Every time.

 

Yes, really.

 

This is the 'fuzziness' I've spoken about many times.

 

We know, my wife and I, that on any given week, plus or minus, we'll see 1-2-3 other people. We don't know who they are, or where it happened, or -what- the activities where, whether or not it was good, nor do we know, or want to know, about any silly sexy 'love talk' that might have happened.

 

But to give you some perspective, and by way of example, to show how care needs to be taken, on both sides, both in the saying and in the interpretation, I did catch, honestly, by complete chance as I was walking by, an "I love you" text from one of my wifes previous lovers who I know she was very keen on.

 

Its just lovers talk. It has no residual or ongoing meaning in the context of our true and ongoing marriage.

 

In case you are inclined to see the flaw in my logic above, yes, sure, there is no chinese wall between my wife and myself - a little bit of information about our respective lovers does leak out, and its all fine, details are minimal and intentionally kept fuzzy. But things leak. As I've already mentioned in a couple of posts, some of these lovers, both hers and mine, end up becoming firm friends, and enter our life circle ... but the sex stops (or has already stopped) at that point.

 

There are clearly major issues here and although I'm not a huge fan of open marriages it takes an incredible amount of trust, self confidence, self esteem and honesty on both ends to make it successful. Without any or all of these components it will not work

 

Yes. Hard to disagree there. Trust. It needs to be built and be maintained. I've said it before, I think in this thread, you need to not only _do_ the right thing but be _seen_ to be doing the right thing.

 

A close second to the trust thing is fairness. These arrangements need to be fair. I'm not talking about numbers here, its not about whether my wife has 3 lovers this week and I only have 1. I could choose, and sometimes do choose, to not participate in my right of reply with any sex at all. But the fairness is that we both have the right to do as we please within the bounds of our arrangement. I can't say to my wife, on any given week, and in fairness, that I'm feeling vulnerable and she shouldn't take a lover, but continue to do so myself.

 

To the folks reading this and saying to themselves 'oh god, here goes Mumbles again, banging on about it' - yes, I am, because there is precious little open talk about marriages of this type. The OP's marriage is different to mine, I know, its come from a different place and has a different internal logic, but .... there are some, I hope, useful anecdotes in there that might be useful in understanding what is possibly going on, at least via tenuous links and similes, with the husband here (as the only active participant in the 'open' bit).

[elaine567]

Yes, and then another and then another. Theres no inherent problem there, for those who can entertain the notion of an open marriage, so long as there is at least some emotional gap, distance.

Yes, we all get that, but the OP has never been truly on board with the concept of an "open" marriage, it was "killing" her and it merely continues to "kill" her and will "kill" her in the future too if she decides to stick around.

 

Moving through a lot of partners, and somewhat careful selection, perhaps, of those partners, is likely to give him what he wants here, without also triggering the thought of these women having his babies in the future.

 

Ok I see what you are saying, the more partners he has the less likely he is going to get "attached" but this is not about "extra" or spice this is about a desire for intimacy, love and closeness from a woman.

Something he is not getting from his wife and something which apparently from what the OP says, he is no longer looking for from his wife either. Intimacy such as it was has essentially disappeared.

 

This man is only 29, he WILL see babies in the future and he is not going to have them with his wife, as he doesn't agree with IVF or any other form of unnatural conception, so he IS going to get attached at some point to a "fertile" women who can give him the family he wants.

 

This is not really about an "open" marriage in the accepted version of the term.

This is about a traumatised woman, who as oldshirt says is still being traumatised daily by her husband's "need" to have sex with another woman.

She accepts in the same way an abused woman accepts the name calling, the manipulation, the mind games and the violence.

She accepts her lot, because in her mind, she sees no other option.

She justifies it with "love", or "duty" or "sacrifice", or because she doesn't want to break up the marriage/family, or because she is frightened of the wider world or she is frightened of the consequences.

To an outsider it is twisted logic, but to her it makes perfect sense.

 

The OP sees a chink of light here, she needs to run towards it.

[Mumbles]

The OP sees a chink of light here, she needs to run towards it.

 

Elaine567, Apologies for snipping almost all your post. I don't violently disagree. In fact, we're not in reality that far apart conceptually. I'm writing from a perspective assuming that there is still enough good left in the marriage to pursue an equitable resolution and a continued union. Things may have already progressed too far for this to be realistic, thus my direct question to JRP about exactly this.

 

I've left a snippet of your post above because I think it addresses my own angle pretty well.

 

"...she needs to run towards it"

 

Towards what?

 

I'm not being silly or argumentative.

 

The probable PTSD condition she suffers (and a nod to oldshirt here, I agree with his analysis), I hope and pray is a solvable situation for her, something she will be able to make a full recovery from given the right set of circumstances, time and gentle care.

 

but ...

 

Wheres the real life solution in divorce here? Something real and not insignificant drew her into a marriage with her husband in the first place. I'm sure she didn't agree to a union simply because she didn't have anything better to do that week. Both went into it knowing that sex would be a problem, but that a solution, of some form, would be negotiated and found.

 

Yes, I get it, the OP would never have agreed to an open marriage if she was having sex with her husband. From the reports so far, _he_ would also not have agreed to be open under those circumstances. He doesn't sound like a man who has always harboured a secret desire to have multiple ongoing sexual partners whilst married.

 

Yet, they married - and, given its been 5 years already, for the most part, thread subject aside, it must have been good. If there were abuse or basic incompatibility then one or both partners here would long have walked away.

 

So, "run towards" what? Another union, with another man, who, given the nature of usual couplings, is going to want sex as part of his life journey?

 

Is there someone else out there more compatible? Yes, maybe, probably even. There is always, as I've said many times in different threads, always, someone more beautiful, richer, more caring, more compassionate, more, just more ... We could all spend our lives looking for 'the one' only to find that they are a rice paddy farmer in central China ... who you will never meet (I'm being silly, but you get the idea).

 

Is this relationship worth saving? Is there anything left to save? I can't answer that; JRP can. My angle is in assuming, for now, that there is. If I'm wrong, ok.

[BaileyB]

I can't imagine that being on your own could be any worse than staying in a relationship where you are constantly being hurt by your husband. The stress, the pain, the sadness that you are feeling... It perpetuates the belief that you are a victim and that things will never get better.

 

You may actually be surprised at how much better life can be with a little time and distance from this very unhealthy relationship.

Edited January 17, 2017 by BaileyB

[sandylee1]

JRP

 

I think one of the things hindering your progress, has been the pressure from your husband. It's not direct pressure, but knowing how important it is for him to have a sexual relationship cannot be ignored.

 

On a very basic level and not in any way to trivialise the crime and trauma, if my husband said having a slim wife is important to him and married me even though I wasn't slim, I'd feel under pressure to loose the weight, even if I wanted to.

 

I agree with you on another point, but again didn't want to say it so as not to upset you, but I also think even if he was able to have sex with you at this stage, he'd still leave.

 

I don't think he has that much of an emotional connection to you any more and he's shown he doesn't really have the desire to be bothered kissing you any more. It's come more to a friendship, not a marriage where you discuss plans for the future and dreams for later on.

 

As you've previously said, he doesn't see a future with you. I think it could be 3 things stopping him from pulling the plug right now:

 

1) Not being perceived as the bad guy

 

2) Not being sure that the OW will divorce her husband

 

3) Fear of you being happy (intimate) with another man (OWs H), and the feeling of defeat that he couldn't be the one

 

He'd much rather you never get intimate with anyone even if he left you, so he can say he tried his best, but it was all down to you.

 

If you were able to be intimate with anyone else in the future, then, it would make him feel it was him.

 

I do also think you're selling yourself short in terms of how the OWs H may feel about you and attraction is not only about looks. It's how you connect with a person on an emotional level, which he and his wife clearly don't.

 

You also say your husband is really good looking too right. There must have been something about you, for a man who really cannot survive without sex saw and continued to stay in a relationship with and go on to

marry you.

 

I know he thought it was a temporary thing, but many men would not have stayed around based on the lack of sex. He could have chosen any other and had a normal sexual relationship with, but he didn't.

 

So regardless of how drop dead gorgeous the OWs H is, the fact that the the two of you have a very important thing in common, you feel at ease together and already get on well, will be a big attraction for him. Like you he won't feel the pressure to have sex either.

[sandylee1]

I also second that you should continue talking to OWs H.

It's helpful and supportive for you.

 

Your husband has gone behind your back taking her to the movies and it's glaringly obvious it's not just sex anymore.

 

They are doing stuff together like a normal couple. He can't try and pass that off as, needing to go to the movies to make the sex better.

 

You don't really need to confront him about it. You've seen the messages and know he's very attached to her. Retain that knowledge and make your decision.

 

If you say anything about it, he could just say he needed to say those things to keep her interested in the sex with him.

 

I'll echo what I've said before along with other posters. Staying in the marriage is hindering any chance of having an intimate relationship.

 

Every time he goes to have sex with OW, it puts you in a bad place emotionally and you'll never get physically able to have sex, while your emotional well-being is taking a beating.

[sandylee1]

Great posts from people here and just to highlight a few....

 

 

if you got with the right person, you could be sexual.

 

On some core level, he knows this and that is why he has the issue with the OW's H

 

It makes me wonder if she has tried to get him to divorce me. She won't divorce her husband though so I have doubts .*

 

She may not have divorced her husband as yet, because there hasn't been a man she would rather be with.... Until now.?

 

Your body was violated and now you are being violated again by your husband.

 

Leave because there is no getting better from here and he will continue to disrespect you and the marriage.

 

I do not think you are as damaged and left dysfunctional by your assault as you are thinking you are.*

 

I think a significant portion of your sexual dysfunction IS WITH YOUR HUSBAND SPECIFICALLY.

 

My take on it...

 

There's a good chance, you that over time, assuming you don't get divorced, the the tables will turn, where she's going to be his primary relationship (in his mind and actions) and you will appear to be the OW, as he makes up excuses/lies/omission of truth to spend more time with her.... Even to the extent of going away with her.

 

He'll build up resentment because you didn't "let him go", when it became clear you would never be able to give him sexual intimacy and because of what you'd already been through, he didn't want to hurt you.

 

If you present divorce as a question to him, it will have the same effect.

 

He doesn't want to have to say "yes, I want a divorce"

 

It's for you to say, you realise that you can't give him the intimacy and never will be able to while he continues having sex with other women, but you know he cannot deal with not having it.

 

In addition to that, tell him it's painful to see the man you love going out to be with another woman, getting what you can't give him and it chips a little more of you away every time it happens.

 

I can't see how he could argue with that. He won't agree not to go to OWs and honestly.. That ship has sailed for you both.

 

 

 

Should he be challenged on it...

He'll turn himself into the 'victim', for being 'trapped' and 'forced' to find a new OW whenever you became uncomfortable.

 

Deep down, you both regret this marriage and you both need to let each other go.

 

 

 

I can't imagine that being on your own could be any worse than staying in a relationship where you are constantly being hurt by your husband. The stress, the pain, the sadness that you are feeling... It perpetuates the belief that you are a victim and that things will never get better.

[GunslingerRoland]

It sounds like you guys should just swap relationships permanently. And that is probably why your husband didn't want you seeing the other husband is that some part of him still wants to make it work with you, and he realizes how much better of a fit that guy is for you.

[BaileyB]

Maybe this is just me, but I don't think I would want to get involved with this woman's husband. If I was in this position, I feel like swapping relationships would just keep me tied up in the pain of the divorce and prevent me from moving forward and heal. I would want to start a new, fresh page and I think that would be difficult to do with constant reminders of the tangled relationships that have developed.

Edited January 17, 2017 by BaileyB

[Mumbles]

To everyone already planning the exit strategy here. Shouldn't the OP at least have the conversation with her husband first? You know, the one where she veto's the OW?

 

It may well be that he refuses, or, worse, agrees but then does it anyway on the down-lo, but at least give him the chance to step up.

 

If he won't, fine, then all the posts relating to the mechanics of separation and the future single life can be realised.

[BaileyB]

Obviously, there is much to be discussed and OP has to make a decision about the future of her marriage. Part of that decision is considering alternatives, one of which would be the logistics of divorce and life after marriage.

 

Perhaps the husband will step up and end it with the OW. I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't happen that way... And even if it did, it would be very likely that he would begin a sexual relationship with another woman, which would mean that OP would be dealing with the same issue in her marriage.

 

Only time will tell...

[elaine567]

To everyone already planning the exit strategy here. Shouldn't the OP at least have the conversation with her husband first? You know, the one where she veto's the OW?

 

It may well be that he refuses, or, worse, agrees but then does it anyway on the down-lo, but at least give him the chance to step up.

 

Ok, but a veto doesn't really solve anything does it?

She is still left with her husband walking out the door to have sex with some other woman, in this open marriage that is "killing" her.

The "discomfort" she feels on sharing her husband didn't start with this particular OW, nor will it disappear the minute this OW leaves.

In order to feel safe and secure and happy the OP needs her husband to ditch the "open" part of their marriage, but she has nothing to offer him to take its place, has she?

 

It is an impasse, she either "sacrifices" or he "sacrifices".

For the past few years she has been the one taking the massive hit, and he is now out having fun with his "OW" whom he professes to love.

That is not a situation that can continue indefinitely as the OP is already severely traumatised and does not need to endure any further trauma. Any woman would find this situation intolerable and be traumatised by it, never mind a woman who has gone through what the OP has gone through.

A one sided "forced" open marriage is a horrible thing.

In the OP's already fragile state, it is no doubt doing her untold damage.

 

I understand that you feel it necessary to defend open marriages but there is actually nothing wrong with open marriages where both have agreed to it, with no undue pressure.

 

However there is no fairness here, this is just about taking advantage in a very sad situation.

[JRP]

It's 6:30AM and I can't sleep so here I am...

 

Something that worries me about ending my marriage, or just talking to my husband about this, is that he is a sweet talker. Always has been. When he wants to, he knows all of the right things to say and how to swing things in his favor.

 

I don't think we can ever come back from this. I don't know how I would trust him again. I know, I know..., that I won't be able to have sex with him while this is going on. As long as he is sleeping with other women, I won't be able to do it.

 

I deserve better than to feel like this for the rest of my life, and he deserves better than to be with someone who can't give him the basic things he needs.

 

I feel bad if I were to talk to the OW's husband while I'm still with my husband. Partly because I don't want to do the OW what she did to me. Mostly because knowing that he doesn't want me to just makes me feel like crap. He doesn't care when I feel like crap, but still, it's like I can't go there. He can tell the OW that he loves her, that he wishes he had met her first, that she's everything he wants in life, and I still feel like I can't talk to another guy. It's stupid, really. The text he sent her that said he'd rather be with her (which he actually sent many times) was sent while we were out to dinner. He was acting completely normal, we were having a good time and I wouldn't have suspected that he was really thinking about the OW and that he'd rather be with her. We're in another country, supposed to be having a great time and bonding as a couple, and he's thinking about her.

 

The OW's husband has said that I should divorce my husband. That I have nothing to lose and everything to gain. It all just makes me feel like the bad person here. I don't know if there is a bad person in this scenario, more like two people who should never have been together, but I feel like the bad guy.

 

My husband professes his love to this woman (who says the same things back) and one of the texts said "If only I had found you first. I didn't, but you will be my last". It's like he thinks he could have a whole life with her. I really don't see it. I see it fizzling out at some point when the sex gets boring or someone hotter comes around. I don't see the OW divorcing her husband at all. They have a prenup in place and apparently it's not something she wants to be used. Based on their home, they are very well off. I don't know if her husband will ever divorce her. I don't know the full dynamic of their marriage or what keeps him with her, or what is in that prenup.

 

I do wonder if those texts are how they really feel, or if they are "just talk". Right now, it doesn't feel like it matters. I don't want a divorce, but I feel like I need a divorce. If I talk to him and he says that he would stop seeing the OW and cease all contact, I don't know if I would trust that it really ended. I don't know how I'd trust him, and we could work on it but it doesn't feel like it's worth it. Recover our relationship from that for what? To start it again just with a different woman.

 

If I go back some months, I was happy-ish with our marriage. I was happier than I am now, but it was never at 100% and I don't think it ever could be as long as he is seeing other women. It's a never ending loop, though. As long as he is seeing OW I won't be able to be intimate with him, as long as we are not intimate he will see OW. We use to spend a lot of time together, we went out on dates, took vacations, we planned things for the future, we had fun and kept things spontaneous, we tried new things together and pushed each other to try new things, I would have considered him my best friend. We talked a lot, we could be open with each other and there was trust. He was sweet and romantic and did cute little things that he knew would make me happy. But that's going back to July 2016. Right now, it feels like a lifetime ago. As soon as this OW came into his life, he basically walked out of my life without actually leaving.

 

Intimacy isn't just sex, there is a lot of other things that can fall into that category. We use to have intimacy but that has gone out the window never to return. Maybe she is fulfilling all of those needs for him to the point where he has nothing left for me. Or maybe he feels nothing for me anymore and doesn't want to or doesn't know how to leave me. At his core, he's not a bad guy. He's actually really sensitive and sweet. I don't know, maybe I ruined him, but he's not the a**hat that he appears to be throughout this thread. Or he is and I'm just too blind to see it. I do know that he doesn't want to be seen as the bad guy, I know that he doesn't want to feel like he wasted years of his life, and I do know that he has a jealous streak that doesn't want me to be with another man. Those 3 things could very well be preventing him from divorcing me. I wish I could hear him straight out say "Yes, I want a divorce. I don't want to be with you anymore and I am in love with OW." I feel like it would make this so much easier and eliminate the doubt and "what if's" from my mind.

 

Even though I don't think there is any way we can rectify this, I do want to talk to him. When is a bigger question. Now or when we are home... I do not know. Posters are right, there is no way to solve this when I can't offer him what he needs.

 

It is correct that if I head the words that he loves another woman come out of his mouth I'd be done sooner, or more easily. Right now I only know what I have read on his phone, but once those words come out of his directed at me, then I really know and I'll never be able to un-know. I don't want to be the person that ignores every red flag and every sign, but maybe I am that person. If I wasn't I probably never would have got myself into this situation.

 

I agree with the thought of not wanting to get involved with the OW's husband, in any way, because it doesn't allow for a clean break. I don't want to hop from one relationship (marriage) to the next. I don't want to be with another woman's husband (even though she doesn't care that she is with mine). I don't want to make another woman feel the way I feel (even though she doesn't seem to even like him). I don't want to be the OW. I don't want to try and move on while continuously having my (would be then) ex in my life. At the same time, I do. So I don't know what will happen there, if anything, but I do know that I have no desire to rush anything.

[sandylee1]

You aren't ready to end your marriage yet and your husband is probably okay without a divorce right now, because the OW is married.

 

He'll have to hurt you much more than he is now before you walk away on your own. That could come in the form of getting another woman pregnant or you seeing more explicit messages to other women or him openly telling you he's going on vacation with another woman.

 

When that happens, I hope you are able to get real life support for your own health and safety, because it will knock you to the core and you'll run out of tears to cry.

 

Like a battered wife, when it becomes more than you can handle, nobody will have to tell you a divorce is the right thing to do.

[Mumbles]

Ok, but a veto doesn't really solve anything does it?

She is still left with her husband walking out the door to have sex with some other woman, in this open marriage that is "killing" her.

 

The "discomfort" she feels on sharing her husband didn't start with this particular OW, nor will it disappear the minute this OW leaves.

 

It seems to me, and taking into account the OP's most recent message (above this one), that this specific OW is the main source of the current overwhelming grief.

 

Yes, of course, there is ultimately an unsolvable conundrum here. But it seems to have been manageable up until around June last year - when the OW arrived.

 

 

In order to feel safe and secure and happy the OP needs her husband to ditch the "open" part of their marriage, but she has nothing to offer him to take its place, has she?

 

It is an impasse, she either "sacrifices" or he "sacrifices".

For the past few years she has been the one taking the massive hit, and he is now out having fun with his "OW" whom he professes to love.

 

I think the love talk, via the texts quite possibly isn't as real as it seems - its just that, love talk, borne of the over closeness that both are allowing themselves to wallow in. The words are hurtful for observers (who they are not meant for) and honestly now, better judgement should have been utilised on both parties behalf.

 

This impasse won't be solvable until something changes within the current situation. I hold hope that it can be crossed, but quite obviously that time isn't now.

 

 

A one sided "forced" open marriage is a horrible thing.

In the OP's already fragile state, it is no doubt doing her untold damage.

 

Its a horrible thing for both people involved.

 

 

I understand that you feel it necessary to defend open marriages but there is actually nothing wrong with open marriages where both have agreed to it, with no undue pressure.

 

I'm not defending anything. Open relationships are most certainly not for everyone, not even for a large number of everyones. I am not on a crusade here. I have been as open in my conversation here as I can be, to try and help balance understanding ... no more, no less.

 

However there is no fairness here, this is just about taking advantage in a very sad situation.

 

I'd agree with this if the husband had shown a penchant for being a player and just wanted a nice girl at home to cook his meals and wash his clothes. But I don't see that in the husband. I don't think he's intent was, or is, taking advantage of his wifes situation.

 

What I do see is an open arrangement where things have gone off the rails, in a not unusual way, but in a way that could have been prevented.

 

As things have progressed, over the course of this thread, it seems more and more likely that hope is fast vanishing of an equitable resolution here. But, really, but .... the husband hasn't been given the right of reply here - he's, presumably, not aware of just how much damage he's really doing. He should be given the opportunity to correct himself.

 

He might choose not to, its a real risk, but, if he was to get some input, specifically about the effect this OW is having on his marriage, he might well snap out of it and straighten up.

 

We won't know unless he's given the chance, and honestly now, if he's hit with all this and decides its best to end the current marriage ... well ... its something thats going to have to be faced at some point, its not going to go away.

 

People recover marriages from all kinds of challenges, it happens all the time.

 

There are so many angles to this, and lots of potential, but first things first. Attack the main source of the terrible situation, then follow on with other difficulties as they present.

[Mumbles]

It's 6:30AM and I can't sleep so here I am...

 

Something that worries me about ending my marriage, or just talking to my husband about this, is that he is a sweet talker. Always has been. When he wants to, he knows all of the right things to say and how to swing things in his favor.

 

Its because you just need reasons to stay. Provided those reasons arrive, well ... there you are. I think this shows your willingness to stay in the relationship. Yes, challenges, real and present, right here right now, but the above is telling.

 

'Sweet talk', its fine a lovely, but won't stray a strong and decided mind.

 

 

I don't think we can ever come back from this. I don't know how I would trust him again. I know, I know..., that I won't be able to have sex with him while this is going on. As long as he is sleeping with other women, I won't be able to do it.

 

Yep, fair comment.

 

Trust - built and maintained, and its a fragile thing. Despite all my words in this thread describing open marriage through my own experience, I well understand that it wouldn't take much misbehaviour to get us into serious trouble. One has to be vigilant

 

I think you both need to step back from the precipice here and take a long deep breath. Surely husband can survive with no sex for a month. He walks away from the OW, take some time, a few weeks, then have a really serious talk about the future.

 

 

I deserve better than to feel like this for the rest of my life, and he deserves better than to be with someone who can't give him the basic things he needs.

 

Sure, makes sense. Can't argue theres a long and not completely filled with happiness future together if the foundation problem can't be resolved.

 

 

I feel bad if I were to talk to the OW's husband while I'm still with my husband. Partly because I don't want to do the OW what she did to me. Mostly because knowing that he doesn't want me to just makes me feel like crap. He doesn't care when I feel like crap, but still, it's like I can't go there. He can tell the OW that he loves her, that he wishes he had met her first, that she's everything he wants in life, and I still feel like I can't talk to another guy. It's stupid, really. The text he sent her that said he'd rather be with her (which he actually sent many times) was sent while we were out to dinner. He was acting completely normal, we were having a good time and I wouldn't have suspected that he was really thinking about the OW and that he'd rather be with her. We're in another country, supposed to be having a great time and bonding as a couple, and he's thinking about her.

 

Well, what can I say? Husband is completely submerged in couple bonding chemicals. That bit, at least, is not his fault, its biology. Scream at the wind, it would be more effective. However, the point I keep banging on about is that it shouldn't have gone this far. Now that it has, well, what was a small problem has grown into a massive monster.

 

I understand your trepidation. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I suspect this feels like not wanting to mention the name of the beast for fear of releasing him. I understand this fear, I've had it myself in my first marriage. My wife at the time, and I, were clearly struggling, yet we couldn't speak the "D" word (Divorce), for fear that releasing it would make it a reality. Well.... by not addressing it, it _did_ become a reality. By the time we had that serious conversation, and freely used the word, it was already a fait accompli. I strongly urge those in difficulty, who, at a base level still harbour at least some desire to keep their marriage together, to face the fear and have the conversation whilst it can still be had.

 

These fears are not idle thoughts. There is a real threat that divorce is coming. But I know, for mine, that I have regret over my first marriage. Although our reasons were ultimately sound, I don't feel we did _everything_ that we could have to save it. Pride and fear got in the way.

 

This, through all my wordage in this thread, is my ultimate angle of approach. If people do decide to divorce, do so with a clear mind and no regrets.

 

 

The OW's husband has said that I should divorce my husband. That I have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

 

Easy to say. But whats to gain?

 

I'm being serious here, not flippant.

 

The feelings of anguish that you have now, your husband straying _way_ off the reservation, do you feel like these feelings are as the result of being married or being jealous of your husband as a man, a man you love? If you divorce, for example, do you feel, in your heart, that a burden will really be lifted? You will no longer feel the way you feel, even though the same man will be out doing the same things with the same (and other) women?

 

All that changes, in my experience, is that the legal construct, the piece of paper (the marriage certificate), is no longer societally binding. The day after divorce, I still saw the same women in front of me, I still had the same feelings.

 

It all just makes me feel like the bad person here. I don't know if there is a bad person in this scenario, more like two people who should never have been together, but I feel like the bad guy.

 

Yes, I agree completely. Not with you being the bad person, but with the two people who should not have been together ... your husband and the OW.

 

 

My husband professes his love to this woman (who says the same things back) and one of the texts said "If only I had found you first. I didn't, but you will be my last". It's like he thinks he could have a whole life with her. I really don't see it. I see it fizzling out at some point when the sex gets boring or someone hotter comes around.

 

Again, I agree with you. I think this love talk is just talk. You've also painted a picture, earlier, of your husband which goes against the last comment above. He's not coming across to me, via your revelations, as a player, out there looking for the main chance.

 

I don't see the OW divorcing her husband at all. They have a prenup in place and apparently it's not something she wants to be used. Based on their home, they are very well off. I don't know if her husband will ever divorce her. I don't know the full dynamic of their marriage or what keeps him with her, or what is in that prenup.

 

I agree.

 

 

I do wonder if those texts are how they really feel, or if they are "just talk". Right now, it doesn't feel like it matters. I don't want a divorce, but I feel like I need a divorce.

 

Fair cop.

 

I tell you what. Given this, are there grounds for a trial separation? I don't normally suggest this as good things don't normally come as a result. However, you're stuck between a rock and a hard place here, very, very ambivalent. the one thing I'd strongly suggest, in the case of a trial separation is that you keep the intent of the trial very clear. It can't be about 'punishing' the other and forcing them to see what they are 'missing' as is so often the hope when people are hurting and want to share some of that hurt. It should be all about _you_, personally, and how _you_ feel when separated (and the same goes for hubby ...).

 

If I talk to him and he says that he would stop seeing the OW and cease all contact, I don't know if I would trust that it really ended.

 

Yep, I'd feel the same. This is where 'being seen' to be doing the right thing becomes paramount. When trust is broken, its no longer good enough to simply say, or imply ... 'trust me on this'. It needs to be demonstrated.

 

He needs to tell you where he is and what he's doing at all times during this period. He needs to answer the phone, immediately, when you are not together. There cannot be even the hint of secrecy or strange and unexplained disappearances. Its seems unproductive and even perhaps a bit childish, but, trust is a fickle and fragile thing.

 

 

I don't know how I'd trust him, and we could work on it but it doesn't feel like it's worth it. Recover our relationship from that for what? To start it again just with a different woman.

 

No, not that. Its why I've spent so much time describing my own situation, to try and give some faith that openness _can_ work, when boundaries are set and adhered to. I'm not trying to force fit my situation onto yours - nor am I evangelising - I _do_ understand that this arrangement is not a lifestyle choice, its a mature reaction to an unfortunate reality.

 

If I go back some months, I was happy-ish with our marriage. I was happier than I am now, but it was never at 100% and I don't think it ever could be as long as he is seeing other women. It's a never ending loop, though. As long as he is seeing OW I won't be able to be intimate with him, as long as we are not intimate he will see OW.

 

Whilst I understand the conundrum here, the above paints a different picture to my take on the reality as so far described in the thread.

 

"As long as he is seeing OW I won't be able to be intimate with him, as long as we are not intimate he will see OW.", the reality, the heart wrenching reality here is that you probably can't be intimate with him, in the near term, even if he completely and utterly stops seeing other women.

 

 

Intimacy isn't just sex, there is a lot of other things that can fall into that category.

 

I agree emphatically.

 

 

I wish I could hear him straight out say "Yes, I want a divorce. I don't want to be with you anymore and I am in love with OW." I feel like it would make this so much easier and eliminate the doubt and "what if's" from my mind.

 

But this is not taking control of your own future in any way. Its letting decisions on your future be decided by others. When a couple reaches the point where divorce is inevitable, nobody cares about who is the 'bad guy', and at that point, the 'bad' becomes very very bad indeed.

 

I'd suggest you both feel the way you do because you _do_ still love each other.

 

Even though I don't think there is any way we can rectify this, I do want to talk to him. When is a bigger question. Now or when we are home... I do not know. Posters are right, there is no way to solve this when I can't offer him what he needs.

 

I'd do it now. You are on a vacation of some sort. Oxytocin effects need constant reinforcement. If I'm wrong about the source of the husbands feelings for the OW then being away or at home won't make a difference to his outlook, the conversation will be as difficult as it needs to be regardless. But, having been away for a little while, days to a week from the sound of it, the mini separation between him and the OW has already occurred. Some of the fog should have lifted from his mind by now and a certain amount of clarity returned.

 

You will be in a much worse position, to have the mature talk you need to have with him, if you wait until you get home and he's had the chance to 'see' the OW again.

 

 

I agree with the thought of not wanting to get involved with the OW's husband, in any way, because it doesn't allow for a clean break.

 

This particular couple is poisoned now. Its a real shame, it didn't have to be that way, but thats the way it is.

 

I don't want to hop from one relationship (marriage) to the next. I don't want to be with another woman's husband (even though she doesn't care that she is with mine). I don't want to make another woman feel the way I feel (even though she doesn't seem to even like him). I don't want to be the OW. I don't want to try and move on while continuously having my (would be then) ex in my life. At the same time, I do. So I don't know what will happen there, if anything, but I do know that I have no desire to rush anything.

 

If it all turns to porridge, your relationship with your husband, and you make the break, well, all bets are off at that point. I wouldn't want to be in constant contact with the OW and your own previous husband at that point. However, nothing then to stop you seeing whats what with the OW's husband, in your own private space and place. In this eventuation just make it very very clear to the OH that you don't want to know whats going on with the other two.

[oldshirt]

Why would a young, healthy male marry a woman that couldn't/wouldn't have sex with in the first place??

 

Something is definately "off" with the H to begin with.

 

IMHO I think he is perfectly happy with a servant that's a live in companion that cooks and cleans and is there listening to him gloat about his accomplishments and whine about his woes.

 

And the best part is he doesn't have to worry about her screwing other men or worry about virile men competing with for her.

 

In the mean time he can have hot, wild, monkey sex with OW and doesn't get in trouble for it. He can swing from the chandeliers with her and then come home to supper on the table and his underwear folded and put away.

 

This is simple a reverse cuckold situation.

 

He is preying on her weakness and vulnerabilities for his benefit. He is simply exploiting her sexual hang ups for his own sexual benefit.

 

He can ravage the OW but doesn't have to wine and dine her, rub her feet or unclog her toilet - she has her limp-d1(k husband for that.

 

JRP is simply being chumped her.

 

Vetoing this particular OW will accomplish nothing because this is about power dynamics, exploitation and manipulation within the marriage. She can veto this OW and he will simply have another one down the road and sweet talk her into why she should be good with it and to please use less starch when laundering his underwear.