Why do people always say "Nice Guys Finish Last"?

[hasaquestion]

So my original point still stands nice guy really is code for ugly guy whose only saving attribute is he's nice, if the only good thing I have to say about a restaurant is that it has tables and plates probably means it's terrible.

 

So when a girl tells a guy "you're such a nice guy I'm surprised you haven't found anyone I'm sure you'll find someone soon." she's really trying to be nice but everyone knows you're really just ugly but you are a nice guy so maybe their will be a girl desperate enough to date you one day.

 

No it's not. Because if you ever listen to girls/women talk about the men they do date, they'll invariably mention how nice or sweet he is at some point. Nice isn't realistically code for anything beyond 'not a weirdo'.

[Taramere]

Well good for you, not sure what your illness is but it's good you don't let it slow you down but, I never had your luck in dating.

 

As for your hobbies it depends on what they are creating apps in Java and street racing are both guy oriented hobbies but one is considered more exciting.

 

If you are unattractive you are probably better at knowing who is interested and who won't be.

 

Do girls ever flirt with you or do you have to go in cold?

 

Anyway my original point was nice guy really is code for ugly guy.

 

Is Eeyore ugly?

 

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/20/89/5c/20895c7d140a49ac35ff819efc4c954b.jpg

 

I don't think he is. I think he's kind of adorable, and sweet. I want to cuddle him, feed him a sugar cube and reassure him that things will get better. Eeyores bring out the nurturing instinct - but they're also a bit depressing. Now, here's Tigger...

 

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/winniethepooh/images/c/c2/Tigger_2011.png/revision/latest?cb=20130611124025

 

Would people define Tigger as nice and sweet? Probably not. Not necessarily because he isn't a kind, sweet, affectionate character...but because he radiates other qualities like energy, joy, zest for living and so on. The kind of things that inspire similar feelings in other people.

 

I'm no Trump fan, but I think he's onto something when he dismisses political competitors with phrases like "really nice guy, but low energy..." That's not about their physical attractiveness, being ugly or anything like that. It's related purely to the energy they give out, and whether their presence energises or drains other people.

 

It's perfectly possible for a physically handsome man to be a well intentioned and kind person who unfortunately sucks the positive energy out of every situation he enters and leaves everybody around him feeling faintly depressed or negative. There are physically attractive women who do the same thing, but they get away with it more because there's more of a social expectation that women will be passive audiences rather than high energy entertainers.

[GemmaUK]

I'm not sure what this has to do with what I posted. I usually don't kiss on a first date, I mean...I have kissed on a first date, but not all the time. I kiss when she feels open to it.

 

You even said yourself, if the body language isn't there, don't go for it when it even comes to the initial approach.

 

For instance, if I am trying to help her up and I reach out my hand and she doesn't take it...no interest. There she's not being open to chivalry.

 

If you don't kiss on a first date that is going well then you're missing a trick IMO.

Thing is that women date because yeah, we actually want a sexual relationship but if a man is not confident enough to go in for a kiss on a good first date then (well me anyway) would wonder whether the sexual side of things would end up as my responsibility to initiate 100% of the time.

That's something that makes me feel very unsexy and my initiation of sex will decrease waiting for him to make some kind of move on me.

 

The body language (eye contact and smiles) refers to when you have posted about cold approaches but yes obviously you also look or signs on a date - why would you not?

 

If you try to help her up and she rejects that help she either has her hands full or is not open to you/your chivalry. Most women on a date with a man they like are open to that man's chivalry.

[acrosstheuniverse]

If you don't kiss on a first date that is going well then you're missing a trick IMO.

Thing is that women date because yeah, we actually want a sexual relationship but if a man is not confident enough to go in for a kiss on a good first date then (well me anyway) would wonder whether the sexual side of things would end up as my responsibility to initiate 100% of the time.

That's something that makes me feel very unsexy and my initiation of sex will decrease waiting for him to make some kind of move on me.

 

The body language (eye contact and smiles) refers to when you have posted about cold approaches but yes obviously you also look or signs on a date - why would you not?

 

If you try to help her up and she rejects that help she either has her hands full or is not open to you/your chivalry. Most women on a date with a man they like are open to that man's chivalry.

 

 

OP, not everyone feels the same way as GemmaUK. I'm a woman and I prefer not to kiss on a first date. For me, I'd rather it on the second when the fact you've met up again shows you're both interested. It builds a little anticipation, I don't see the rush to kiss on the first date. I find kissing quite intimate and although I'm no prude (I have had sex on a first date), if I actually really like a guy I'd rather wait a couple of dates. On both of my most recent R, we didn't kiss until date three or four and it didn't make me think anything at all either way about our future potential sexual compatibility.

[GemmaUK]

OP, not everyone feels the same way as GemmaUK. I'm a woman and I prefer not to kiss on a first date. For me, I'd rather it on the second when the fact you've met up again shows you're both interested. It builds a little anticipation, I don't see the rush to kiss on the first date. I find kissing quite intimate and although I'm no prude (I have had sex on a first date), if I actually really like a guy I'd rather wait a couple of dates. On both of my most recent R, we didn't kiss until date three or four and it didn't make me think anything at all either way about our future potential sexual compatibility.

 

Just to be clear - If we are talking OLD then a first date comes after a first meet. The first meet is simply that and is not a date.

If I am going on a date after meeting a man from OLD then I have interest.

[acrosstheuniverse]

Just to be clear - If we are talking OLD then a first date comes after a first meet. The first meet is simply that and is not a date.

If I am going on a date after meeting a man from OLD then I have interest.

 

 

Oh I see, I just call the first time meeting up a date usually, unless you've been lucky enough to have the time to grab coffee during the day and the set up an evening date. Seems we're on the same page after all!

[LookAtThisPOst]

OP, not everyone feels the same way as GemmaUK. I'm a woman and I prefer not to kiss on a first date. For me, I'd rather it on the second when the fact you've met up again shows you're both interested. It builds a little anticipation, I don't see the rush to kiss on the first date. I find kissing quite intimate and although I'm no prude (I have had sex on a first date), if I actually really like a guy I'd rather wait a couple of dates. On both of my most recent R, we didn't kiss until date three or four and it didn't make me think anything at all either way about our future potential sexual compatibility.

 

Right, I've even known people who haven't kissed until the 3rd date.

 

Gemma, you honestly believe in a first date kiss and you're a woman? Not too many women would say this.

 

Also, if say a guy doesn't kiss on a first date, but he asked you out again...wouldn't it be silly to refuse as his actions of asking you out is an indication that you'll kiss later, not sooner?

 

Just can't reject a guy based on that.

 

Also, if you go along with Gemma's philosophy of approaching a woman in public ONLY if she gives signals...same goes for kissing...you have to be able to read if she even WANTS to be kissed.

 

If she's not giving any indicator of her desire to be kissed by you, then don't do it...yet.

 

The last date I went on was a first date (after our meet at a restaurant as our "first meet".)

 

We went out on an outdoor activity, brought a picnic lunch...she made the sandwiches, I made the sides. On a recommendation from a female friend, brought strawberries and grapes...she said it's kind of a romantically suggestive food.

 

She didn't touch it.

 

 

If you try to help her up and she rejects that help she either has her hands full or is not open to you/your chivalry. Most women on a date with a man they like are open to that man's chivalry.

 

THIS...

 

 

There were few occasions where had extended my hand to help her down a large rock, or step up from down below. She ignored my extended hand and did it herself. (Ouch)

 

She was friendly, cordial, nice, good sense of humor, but she never flirted or if I flirted...she'd kind of make a joke about it, but didn't flirt back. She was like this on both dates.

 

She talked to me as if she were a friendly waitress or funny customer service rep.

 

I did get a picture of the two of us together and on two occasions she reminded me to text her a copy, so I kind of thought that was an indicator of a good sign.

 

I did hug and kiss her on the cheek good-bye as a happy medium. I was very happy at the end of the date and though I had quite a good time...I thought I was ensured a third.

 

But something in my gut thought with 0 flirtation from her, I would be friend zoned.

 

And sure enough, she texted me that though she had a great time, she can definitely see only a friendship.

 

I wished her luck on her search.

 

Now, I'm more sure that she probably didn't feel a connection on her end, or maybe the fact she was a widow is making dating difficult for her...that's what I thought. Also, this is her first time online dating whatsoever, her last relationship was her first boyfriend after she became a widow.

 

Also, she hasn't been signed into the dating site since our date, which is kind of funny as she used to be signed into the site daily when we were getting to know each other.

 

Overall though, I hardly ever kiss on a first date. In fact, even when I did...which is rare...I was so sure there'd be a 2nd date, but nothing.

 

So there goes the, "Dude you blew it, you should've kissed her!"

 

But be honest, would you honestly turn down a guy for a 2nd date if he didn't kiss you on the first? Quite silly if you did. (That should be a topic starter here. lol)

Edited May 26, 2016 by LookAtThisPOst

[Recon33]

I think people come down a little too harsh on "nice guys" sometimes. If the guy is past 30 that's one thing, but a lot of these guys are just young, naive, and don't know any better. I had a few nice guy traits years ago but I never had any malicious intent, I just wanted what almost everyone around me had. It's easy to be clueless when you don't have anyone or anything really helping you understand how dating and relationships work. Thankfully I know a little bit better now.

 

I'm not painting all "nice guys" as innocent, just saying that you shouldn't be too quick to judge. This world would be a better place if people tried to empathize with each other more often.

[basil67]

There were few occasions where had extended my hand to help her down a large rock, or step up from down below. She ignored my extended hand and did it herself. (Ouch)

 

Chivalry is a funny thing. To me, it's about helping someone in need. As a woman, I really appreciate chivalry if I'm in a bind. Off the top of my head:

 

* If I'm in heels and the ground below me is uneven (and especially if it's dark) I very much appreciate being given an arm to hold. (I've been known to ask the help of male friends in this situation)

 

*Again, if I'm in heels, I appreciate if he walks at a pace I can manage.

 

*If I'm up on a high surface and getting down is risky, I appreciate help.

 

*If I drop stuff, help me pick it up.

 

*If I have many bags, offer to carry half.

 

*If I've fallen when skiing and struggling to get back up, a helping hand is always welcome.

 

*If I'm in clothes unsuitable for running through rain, it's very kind if you go get the car and drive back to me.

 

However, I don't want help when I don't need help.

 

*Being helped down from a rock? If I'm scared, please help. If I'm not scared, then leave me be.

 

*I can open my own doors. Although I appreciate anyone using a door in front of me to hold it open for me as I follow (and I do this for anyone else too).

 

I can't think of other things off hand, but my rule of thumb in chivalry is "does she look like she needs help?"

[basil67]

So my original point still stands nice guy really is code for ugly guy whose only saving attribute is he's nice, if the only good thing I have to say about a restaurant is that it has tables and plates probably means it's terrible.

 

So when a girl tells a guy "you're such a nice guy I'm surprised you haven't found anyone I'm sure you'll find someone soon." she's really trying to be nice but everyone knows you're really just ugly but you are a nice guy so maybe their will be a girl desperate enough to date you one day.

 

You listed your 'ugly' attributes in an earlier post. I've got to say that none of what you listed would be a problem to me. I know a number of people who have varying physical differences who have partners - so it's not just me who's open to this. Though I will grant you that it could be a problem for girls who are shallow about appearances - but they don't represent us all.

 

However, your quiet Christian lifestyle (and especially the no sex before marriage) would have been be a deal breaker for me. And then you've got to consider that we would probably have never even met - because it seems like you don't go to places where women are. Do you go to barbeques and parties?

 

Be careful to not blame something which probably isn't the issue.

[LookAtThisPOst]

Chivalry is a funny thing. To me, it's about helping someone in need. As a woman, I really appreciate chivalry if I'm in a bind. Off the top of my head:

 

* If I'm in heels and the ground below me is uneven (and especially if it's dark) I very much appreciate being given an arm to hold. (I've been known to ask the help of male friends in this situation)

 

*Again, if I'm in heels, I appreciate if he walks at a pace I can manage.

 

*If I'm up on a high surface and getting down is risky, I appreciate help.

 

*If I drop stuff, help me pick it up.

 

*If I have many bags, offer to carry half.

 

*If I've fallen when skiing and struggling to get back up, a helping hand is always welcome.

 

*If I'm in clothes unsuitable for running through rain, it's very kind if you go get the car and drive back to me.

 

However, I don't want help when I don't need help.

 

*Being helped down from a rock? If I'm scared, please help. If I'm not scared, then leave me be.

 

*I can open my own doors. Although I appreciate anyone using a door in front of me to hold it open for me as I follow (and I do this for anyone else too).

 

I can't think of other things off hand, but my rule of thumb in chivalry is "does she look like she needs help?"

 

I think she should let a man be chivalrous, if she's on a date.

[basil67]

I think she should let a man be chivalrous, if she's on a date.

 

Isn't a date about gauging compatibility? Pretending to like something which you actually don't like isn't a great way to start.

[LookAtThisPOst]

Isn't a date about gauging compatibility? Pretending to like something which you actually don't like isn't a great way to start.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "don't like". You lost me.

[basil67]

I'm not sure what you mean by "don't like". You lost me.

 

If he's showing chivalry in a manner which she doesn't like. For example, some men may see chivalry in choosing the meal for both parties - but I love to order my own food and so I'd probably interject and say "Can I see the menu please?"

[Miss Clavel]

The whole "nice guy" vs "bad boy" thing I never really understood.

 

Guys saying they're nice guys but girls aren't attracted to them and prefer the guys who are jerks or in some cases straight up sociopaths.

 

Girls saying nice guys just aren't really actually nice guys and are the same as the other guys but are doing a poor job in manipulating women with their niceness to get into their panties while the "bad boy" is direct, and acts more "manly" and nice guys are just boring wimps.

 

But I find the whole concept to be foolish, since everyone is for some reason ignoring the blatant elephant in the room, physical attractiveness.

 

The real reason "nice guys" finish last is because "nice guys" are simply unattractive men who are also nice, so while they may seem like a catch to girls based on personality alone they aren't attractive to the girls they are trying to get with so the girls call them "nice guys" meaning they see them as an actual nice guy good enough to be friends with but they don't find him "sexy" enough to be boyfriend material.

 

The real reason girls go after "bad boys" because they are simply physically attractive men with bad personalities. Most girls simply don't desire ugly, non-wealthy men, with terrible personalities, like how most guys don't desire a fat, old, and ugly woman who treats him like garbage, nothing attractive about any of that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

yes. everything you said.

[Blanco]

I see plenty of mediocre or downright ugly dudes with above average or very attractive girlfriends. Quite often.

 

I subscribe to the thought that most "nice" guys have no luck with women because they don't have much, if anything, going for them other than the ability to hold open a door for women or pretend to be super engaged in whatever a woman is saying.

[LookAtThisPOst]

I see plenty of mediocre or downright ugly dudes with above average or very attractive girlfriends. Quite often.

 

I subscribe to the thought that most "nice" guys have no luck with women because they don't have much, if anything, going for them other than the ability to hold open a door for women or pretend to be super engaged in whatever a woman is saying.

 

Believe you me, I've seen my share of women that would date guys that have nothing going for them but a jail record, alcoholism, and substance abuse.

[GemmaUK]

Right, I've even known people who haven't kissed until the 3rd date.

 

Gemma, you honestly believe in a first date kiss and you're a woman? Not too many women would say this.

Yes, I'm a woman - last time I checked. Checking...yep! All woman here.

I don't know any women who don't think the same as you believe - cultural differences maybe?

 

Also, if say a guy doesn't kiss on a first date, but he asked you out again...wouldn't it be silly to refuse as his actions of asking you out is an indication that you'll kiss later, not sooner?

 

 

 

Just can't reject a guy based on that.

I didn't say I would refuse a second date. You're making incorrect assumptions. However if I actually wanted to reject a guy based on that why do you say I can't? Surely my own dating choices are up to me aren't they???

 

 

Also, if you go along with Gemma's philosophy of approaching a woman in public ONLY if she gives signals...same goes for kissing...you have to be able to read if she even WANTS to be kissed.

This refers back to cold approaches - I would hope you would not attempt to kiss someone in Tesco whilst they are grocery shopping had you struck up a flirty conversation..

 

If she's not giving any indicator of her desire to be kissed by you, then don't do it...yet.

Just don't do it.

 

The last date I went on was a first date (after our meet at a restaurant as our "first meet".)

 

We went out on an outdoor activity, brought a picnic lunch...she made the sandwiches, I made the sides. On a recommendation from a female friend, brought strawberries and grapes...she said it's kind of a romantically suggestive food.

 

She didn't touch it.

Big signal for you - you picked up on this yes?

 

 

THIS...

 

 

There were few occasions where had extended my hand to help her down a large rock, or step up from down below. She ignored my extended hand and did it herself. (Ouch)

If she can navigate alone she will - but also the signal above is enough to figure she wasn't into you so would only want help when she really needed it.

 

She was friendly, cordial, nice, good sense of humor, but she never flirted or if I flirted...she'd kind of make a joke about it, but didn't flirt back. She was like this on both dates.

 

She talked to me as if she were a friendly waitress or funny customer service rep.

No flirting - another big sign for you!

 

I did get a picture of the two of us together and on two occasions she reminded me to text her a copy, so I kind of thought that was an indicator of a good sign.

Wanting a copy of a picture mean diddley - everyone has pics of everything they do these days including what they had for lunch.

 

I did hug and kiss her on the cheek good-bye as a happy medium. I was very happy at the end of the date and though I had quite a good time...I thought I was ensured a third.

A kiss on the cheek is not a 'kiss'.

I kiss loads of folk, friends, family even folk at work on the cheek.

 

But something in my gut thought with 0 flirtation from her, I would be friend zoned.

 

And sure enough, she texted me that though she had a great time, she can definitely see only a friendship.

 

I wished her luck on her search.

You did twig it all then...

 

Now, I'm more sure that she probably didn't feel a connection on her end, or maybe the fact she was a widow is making dating difficult for her...that's what I thought. Also, this is her first time online dating whatsoever, her last relationship was her first boyfriend after she became a widow.

She just didn't fancy you - no more, no less.

 

Also, she hasn't been signed into the dating site since our date, which is kind of funny as she used to be signed into the site daily when we were getting to know each other.

If this is as you say someone new to OLD she will have been inundated, has been on a few dates and now sees that she likely needs a break and soudl she go back become choosier.

 

Overall though, I hardly ever kiss on a first date. In fact, even when I did...which is rare...I was so sure there'd be a 2nd date, but nothing.

 

So there goes the, "Dude you blew it, you should've kissed her!"

A kiss on the cheek is not a romantic kiss. You kissed her on the cheek.

But other signals say she was not interested romantically way before that so any attempt at a kiss on the lips would have been inappropriate.

 

But be honest, would you honestly turn down a guy for a 2nd date if he didn't kiss you on the first? Quite silly if you did. (That should be a topic starter here. lol)

 

I didn't say that, you're assuming things..

[JuneJulySeptember]

The real reason "nice guys" finish last is because "nice guys" are simply unattractive men who are also nice, so while they may seem like a catch to girls based on personality alone they aren't attractive to the girls they are trying to get with so the girls call them "nice guys" meaning they see them as an actual nice guy good enough to be friends with but they don't find him "sexy" enough to be boyfriend material.

 

Somewhat true.

 

I remember a group of women I had dinner with and they were talking about how so-and-so was too nice of a guy because he offered to give them free furniture without charging them and how that's one of the reasons why he would never get any women. Would they have been all over his jock anyway if he was handsome? Maybe. Probably.

 

But the fact remains that doing nice things for other people is a turn-off to some women.

 

Screw them...

[PrettyEmily77]

But the fact remains that doing nice things for other people is a turn-off to some women.

 

How is that even a fact?

[JuneJulySeptember]

How is that even a fact?

 

What do you mean?

 

You don't think there are women that are turned off by guys being overly nice or you think it's a given that there are?

[PrettyEmily77]

What do you mean?

 

You don't think there are women that are turned off by guys being overly nice or you think it's a given that there are?

 

Neither.

 

I don't think 'overly nice' is enough of a criterion / reason for women to be turned off.

[elaine567]

they were talking about how so-and-so was too nice of a guy because he offered to give them free furniture without charging them

 

Who gives away free furniture? Sounds pretty dodgy, did the furniture fall off the back of a truck?

I would steer well clear of any man giving away free furniture.

[JuneJulySeptember]

Who gives away free furniture? Sounds pretty dodgy, did the furniture fall off the back of a truck?

I would steer well clear of any man giving away free furniture.

 

What are you talking about? It happens all the time. When my ex moved out of her apartment, she offered to give me like half her stuff. Cheap IKEA type stuff. She couldn't take it with her and she didn't feel like charging me $200 bucks for used furniture.

 

My sister and I also have given each other furniture, and my friends and co-workers have offered to give me furniture if I come pick it up.

[ZA Dater]

I think the genuinely nice guys genuinely believe it counts for something, before I joined this forum I believed it did. I believed helping people, being nice to people was something positive. What I have learnt is it isn't and you know what I haven't stopped being nice, I haven't stopped helping people and I haven't stopped taking an interest in people.

 

 

The way I see it you have a choice in life, own who you are or try be something you are not, sure you can live a lie, some people do it very well but for me it just doesn't feel right and if being a nice guy is a total turn off to those I like then I simply have to accept that for what it is.

 

 

Nice guys are the easiest to turn bitter, the easiest to turn jaded because they look at the world as a good place and they genuinely believe kindness counts for something.

 

 

Someone once told me about 7 years ago when I was in the middle of studies "don't worry you are a fantastic guy, any girl would be lucky to have you, you are such a genuine nice guy", I saw it as a complement but its also not true, I look around at the type of guys people I know date, I look around at guys I know and none of them are genuinely nice guys. Many chase sex and looks above all else, many play the field, many look at women as objects, yes they are friendly guys but their entire outlook is so far removed from mine.

 

 

Life is about reality but its about holding your head high in whatever you do and I sometimes wish I could shake hands with nice guys like me, guys who became bitter and jaded and I'd say this " be who you are and be proud of who you are".