Why do people always say "Nice Guys Finish Last"?

[Necris]

You understand what 'nice-guy' means, yeah?

 

Intent is everything. Nice-guys have a particular way and reason behind behaving the way they do.

 

However, nobody is completely benevolent.

 

Words such as 'thoughful' and 'caring' get thrown around like confetti. We can all be seen as these things to some, and absolute b*stards to others.

 

Even Hitler was a proud vegetarian lol. Ghandi refused to allow his wife medication and she consequentially died but then took medication himself, etc.

 

The way I was describing a nice guy in the OP is simple a good guy, but in the context of "Nice guys finish last" I was saying nice guy is still a good guy but can't get any dates is because he's physically unattractive, that's why he is nice guy and not "boyfriend" or "sexy guy".

 

He's pleasant to be around so makes a good friend, the type of guy who would make a nice partner for a girl, but either not physically attractive or something else about him (possibly considered kind of boring) doesn't spark anyone's interest so they label him as the "nice guy".

[JustGettingBy]

No, I'm starting to think that I don't know what the term 'nice guy' means.

 

Let's use my hubby for example. He's a good bloke. He treats women respectfully, he is well liked socially and respected at work. He's equally comfortable downing beers with the boys or doing something nice with me. He's a great dad. He doesn't take advantage of people, but he does have strong personal boundaries. And frankly, the same description could be used to describe the far majority of married men who I know.

 

Now, I would have called him a nice guy, but apparently nice guys don't get girls and are walked all over. So perhaps he's not a nice guy. So what term do we use to describe a man who's like this?

 

The reason I ask is because I need the words to explain that there exists a sweet spot in between loser dateless and arsehole with a girlfriend.

 

There is a middle ground. You won't find it on the internet, though.

[Tayla]

No, I'm starting to think that I don't know what the term 'nice guy' means.

 

Let's use my hubby for example. He's a good bloke. He treats women respectfully, he is well liked socially and respected at work. He's equally comfortable downing beers with the boys or doing something nice with me. He's a great dad. He doesn't take advantage of people, but he does have strong personal boundaries. And frankly, the same description could be used to describe the far majority of married men who I know.

 

Now, I would have called him a nice guy, but apparently nice guys don't get girls and are walked all over. So perhaps he's not a nice guy. So what term do we use to describe a man who's like this?

 

The reason I ask is because I need the words to explain that there exists a sweet spot in between loser dateless and arsehole with a girlfriend.

 

A keeper!! And may he know that his masculine attributes are balanced and regarded.

[basil67]

The way I was describing a nice guy in the OP is simple a good guy, but in the context of "Nice guys finish last" I was saying nice guy is still a good guy but can't get any dates is because he's physically unattractive, that's why he is nice guy and not "boyfriend" or "sexy guy".

 

He's pleasant to be around so makes a good friend, the type of guy who would make a nice partner for a girl, but either not physically attractive or something else about him (possibly considered kind of boring) doesn't spark anyone's interest so they label him as the "nice guy".

 

I've only every known one man who's appearance affected his dating ability. I'm guessing he had a mild case of Treacher Collins Syndrome. And he's finally got a girl now too.

 

I see so many people who aren't typically attractive in relationships. How do these people get a partner?

[Trinity_84]

It's not about guys being nice, it's about confidence. Usually people who are "nice" aren't confident to stand up for themselves and know what they want. So naturally people who are confident and do know what they want and stand up for themselves, get the attention of the opposite (or same, if the case be) sex.

 

I hear the same about women. Women who are too nice are usually walked on, used as doormats by others, put themselves down so others aren't attracted!

 

It's all about self-confidence, or lack thereof.

[LookAtThisPOst]

I was told (by a player obviously) that on some of the dates I went on that if I didn't kiss on a first date, us sexual innuendo, etc. that I was basically a "choir boy", "boy scout" or 'nice guy".

 

Not sure what he meant by that, but apparently chivalry is associated with nice guys and NOT "manly men" and that I wasn't being a "manly man" because I was busy being too gentlemanly.

 

That all women are just as sexual as men and preferred to be "ravished" in the moment.

 

I.e. - holding hands, opening doors for my date, etc.

 

I was on a date with a woman going out swimming all day, and he was like, "Dude, you had her in her swimsuit and didn't even make a move?" This was our first real date, so I was more into keeping it light...I did flirt however, but apparently being an "octopus" is something, "manly men" should do and not "nice guys"

 

Would this dating situation fall into the same wheel house as "nice guys".

[hasaquestion]

You understand what 'nice-guy' means, yeah?

 

Intent is everything. Nice-guys have a particular way and reason behind behaving the way they do.

 

However, nobody is completely benevolent.

 

Words such as 'thoughful' and 'caring' get thrown around like confetti. We can all be seen as these things to some, and absolute b*stards to others.

 

Even Hitler was a proud vegetarian lol. Ghandi refused to allow his wife medication and she consequentially died but then took medication himself, etc.

 

Not only do words like that get thrown around like confetti, there are so few situations that ever arise where you actually find out how good someone is.

 

People like the OP look at someone who is a bit loud and brash and say he's a bad human being. It's absurd. I've seen people who I thought were friends take the path of least resistance the times I've actually needed them for something. And I've known guys my whole life who are rough around the edges but who I know come to someone's aid when they really need it.

 

People's style and substance are separate things. It doesn't fit a neat little good-and-evil story but that's the way it is.

[hasaquestion]

Anyway, most people aren't nice people. Regardless of gender. If you are truly have uncommon kindness, positivity, empathy, and charisma, people will like you and flock to you. It won't be in a highly sexual necessarily but you'll never be wanting for interest.

 

I'd describe three of my lifetime friends/acquaintances as uncommonly nice guys. Two have always had girlfriends and one would if he didn't have cancer.

 

People just think they are a lot nicer than they actually are. There are visuals to compare your looks to. But when you ask about their personality traits, including how nice they are, everyone and their sister thinks they are "nice" or "average".

 

Chances are, you just aren't a nice guy, you're a normal guy. There's nothing wrong with that. If there was I'd be f**ked because lord knows I'm not that good. You're just not one of the 5%-10% or so of people whose kindness, empathy, generosity, listening and active helping others are noteworthy characteristics.

[Necris]

Not only do words like that get thrown around like confetti, there are so few situations that ever arise where you actually find out how good someone is.

 

People like the OP look at someone who is a bit loud and brash and say he's a bad human being. It's absurd. I've seen people who I thought were friends take the path of least resistance the times I've actually needed them for something. And I've known guys my whole life who are rough around the edges but who I know come to someone's aid when they really need it.

 

People's style and substance are separate things. It doesn't fit a neat little good-and-evil story but that's the way it is.

 

I'm not the one saying girls prefer bad guys or all guys who don't fit the nice guy image is bad.

 

What I'm saying is the nice guys who can't get girls are unable to not because they are nice or women like bad boys or whatever it's much simpler than that the guy is simply unattractive, dateless guys who wonder why they can't get girls interested generally just aren't attractive.

 

Girls are not much different than guys they want a handsome cool man just like guys want a beautiful lady.

[preraph]

No, I'm starting to think that I don't know what the term 'nice guy' means.

 

Let's use my hubby for example. He's a good bloke. He treats women respectfully, he is well liked socially and respected at work. He's equally comfortable downing beers with the boys or doing something nice with me. He's a great dad. He doesn't take advantage of people, but he does have strong personal boundaries. And frankly, the same description could be used to describe the far majority of married men who I know.

 

Now, I would have called him a nice guy, but apparently nice guys don't get girls and are walked all over. So perhaps he's not a nice guy. So what term do we use to describe a man who's like this?

 

The reason I ask is because I need the words to explain that there exists a sweet spot in between loser dateless and arsehole with a girlfriend.

 

Which makes me wonder why we're wasting our precious cloning experiments on sheep when we could instead be passing around your wonderful husband!

[Necris]

Anyway, most people aren't nice people. Regardless of gender. If you are truly have uncommon kindness, positivity, empathy, and charisma, people will like you and flock to you. It won't be in a highly sexual necessarily but you'll never be wanting for interest.

 

I'd describe three of my lifetime friends/acquaintances as uncommonly nice guys. Two have always had girlfriends and one would if he didn't have cancer.

 

People just think they are a lot nicer than they actually are. There are visuals to compare your looks to. But when you ask about their personality traits, including how nice they are, everyone and their sister thinks they are "nice" or "average".

 

Chances are, you just aren't a nice guy, you're a normal guy. There's nothing wrong with that. If there was I'd be f**ked because lord knows I'm not that good. You're just not one of the 5%-10% or so of people whose kindness, empathy, generosity, listening and active helping others are noteworthy characteristics.

 

Not necessarily being a good person doesn't always make people love you, sometimes people take advantage of your kindness and knowing your disposition manipulate you. If not that sometimes doing the right also can get you hate if its not popular.

 

As for myself I'm not a saint, and my honest assessment of myself is that I'm actually not a good person, my main weakness being my inability to eliminate lustful thoughts from my mind see a girl immediately imagine her naked, and I'm not one to go out of my way to help someone unless they ask for it. Like friend struggling in a class I'll tutor them completely free, co-worker car breaks down I'll drive them around until they get car fixed, but random homeless man on the street I'm not going to take them to my house but I might give them spare change or occasionally donate to a shelter.

 

You know simple things. I mainly just try to follow the Bible so don't want to sin.

 

I know why I can't get dates I'm boring (introverted, don't drink, don't go clubbing, hobbies are guy oriented) and unattractive I have an average face, a not fit but not fat body, and I have scoliosis, a crippled hand, and a terrible nasally hard to understand voice.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Necris

[GemmaUK]

I was told (by a player obviously) that on some of the dates I went on that if I didn't kiss on a first date, us sexual innuendo, etc. that I was basically a "choir boy", "boy scout" or 'nice guy".

 

Not sure what he meant by that, but apparently chivalry is associated with nice guys and NOT "manly men" and that I wasn't being a "manly man" because I was busy being too gentlemanly.

 

That all women are just as sexual as men and preferred to be "ravished" in the moment.

 

I.e. - holding hands, opening doors for my date, etc.

 

I was on a date with a woman going out swimming all day, and he was like, "Dude, you had her in her swimsuit and didn't even make a move?" This was our first real date, so I was more into keeping it light...I did flirt however, but apparently being an "octopus" is something, "manly men" should do and not "nice guys"

 

Would this dating situation fall into the same wheel house as "nice guys".

 

LATP - kiss her on a first date!

Do it! Hold her waist with some conviction, guide her mid back going into venues, grab a chair for her - and grab a kiss before the end of the night ....when it becomes do or die.

If we really don't want to be kissed by you you will know right there, right then.

[ZA Dater]

I think in part the curse of the nice guy has become somewhat worse than it was in say the 1920s-1950's. Back them its safe to say being a gentleman was noticed, chivalry was noted, today those traits count for very little if anything at all.

 

Good manner, they don't seem to count for anything either. The average nice guy plays to both of those, usually they have good manners and gentlemanly characteristics. For example, I had a model stay over for nearly a week, her place was rented and she needed somewhere, I had some space. Her comment to mutual friends after "ZA dater was an absolute perfect gentleman and has exemplary manner, it rare to find that these days".

 

Nice compliment, she is single, I am single but being nice and having those characteristics still didn't get me on her attractiveness radar.

 

Which is my point, the nice guys positive attributes are never enough on their own to create attraction and that is why the person who said nice guys generally have nothing to offer besides being nice has a valid point in a way.

[SammySammy]

I know why I can't get dates I'm boring (introverted, don't drink, don't go clubbing, hobbies are guy oriented) and unattractive I have an average face, a not fit but not fat body, and I have scoliosis, a crippled hand, and a terrible nasally hard to understand voice.

 

I'm introverted, don't drink, don't go clubbing, hobbies are guy oriented and I have an average face. Was born with a debilitating illness that led to a childhood filled with pain and isolation from my peers. I'm better as an adult, but still face serious challenges.

 

Yet, I have no problem getting dates. Since puberty, the only time I've spent without the interest or companionship of at least one girl or woman were the times I've chosen to be alone. Otherwise, I've always had at least one woman in the mix. Always.

 

I suspect the reason you can't get dates is something else. That laundry list of excuses hasn't stopped me or many others.

[LookAtThisPOst]

LATP - kiss her on a first date!

Do it! Hold her waist with some conviction, guide her mid back going into venues, grab a chair for her - and grab a kiss before the end of the night ....when it becomes do or die.

If we really don't want to be kissed by you you will know right there, right then.

 

I'm not sure what this has to do with what I posted. I usually don't kiss on a first date, I mean...I have kissed on a first date, but not all the time. I kiss when she feels open to it.

 

You even said yourself, if the body language isn't there, don't go for it when it even comes to the initial approach.

 

For instance, if I am trying to help her up and I reach out my hand and she doesn't take it...no interest. There she's not being open to chivalry.

[elaine567]

I think in part the curse of the nice guy has become somewhat worse than it was in say the 1920s-1950's. Back them its safe to say being a gentleman was noticed, chivalry was noted, today those traits count for very little if anything at all.

 

Why are you obsessed with "good manners"? As if they are of any value apart from a passing interest as to the basics.

Not shovelling down his food like a cave man - tick

Says please and thank you - tick

Knows which cutlery to use - tick

Opens doors for other people - tick

 

Fine, first test passed, now what?

No-one dates anyone purely because they have good manners, good manners on their own do not a relationship make.

 

I really doubt that "nice guys" who find it difficult to date had any more luck back then - the place was awash with "good manners".

[LookAtThisPOst]

Why are you obsessed with "good manners"? As if they are of any value apart from a passing interest as to the basics.

Not shovelling down his food like a cave man - tick

Says please and thank you - tick

Knows which cutlery to use - tick

Opens doors for other people - tick

 

Fine, first test passed, now what?

No-one dates anyone purely because they have good manners, good manners on their own do not a relationship make.

 

I really doubt that "nice guys" who find it difficult to date had any more luck back then - the place was awash with "good manners".

 

For some women, good manners were good enough. Most women I've dated had no real long silly laundry list of criteria...when they met me they thought I was a nice, respectful guy with plenty in common that made them laugh.

 

And that was good enough for them.

[elaine567]

.when they met me they thought I was a nice, respectful guy with plenty in common that made them laugh.

 

Exactly, plenty things that others with just "good manners" lack

[ZA Dater]

Why are you obsessed with "good manners"? As if they are of any value apart from a passing interest as to the basics.

Not shovelling down his food like a cave man - tick

Says please and thank you - tick

Knows which cutlery to use - tick

Opens doors for other people - tick

 

Fine, first test passed, now what?

No-one dates anyone purely because they have good manners, good manners on their own do not a relationship make.

 

I really doubt that "nice guys" who find it difficult to date had any more luck back then - the place was awash with "good manners".

 

I didn't really want to bring this up but do nice guys sleep around?

 

Do nice guys perhaps hold themselves to a higher moral standard?

 

I don't know the answer to those questions but I can tell you some guy boasting about how many girls he has slept with doesn't impress me or come off as a nice guy.

 

Its not good manners in isolation, its just simply old world gentlemanly character traits.

 

I'd argue its not the same now as it was then, the impact of social media, dating mediums cannot be underestimated and it would be interesting to know if either of these has had a tangible effect in the way ladies select guys and what they find attractive.

[Revolver]

Look at some of the male politicians we have in this country past and present. HUGE HUGE HUGE jerks. Yet are all swimming with females

[Taramere]

Anyway, most people aren't nice people. Regardless of gender. If you are truly have uncommon kindness, positivity, empathy, and charisma, people will like you and flock to you. It won't be in a highly sexual necessarily but you'll never be wanting for interest.

 

I'd describe three of my lifetime friends/acquaintances as uncommonly nice guys. Two have always had girlfriends and one would if he didn't have cancer.

 

People just think they are a lot nicer than they actually are. There are visuals to compare your looks to. But when you ask about their personality traits, including how nice they are, everyone and their sister thinks they are "nice" or "average".

 

Chances are, you just aren't a nice guy, you're a normal guy. There's nothing wrong with that. If there was I'd be f**ked because lord knows I'm not that good. You're just not one of the 5%-10% or so of people whose kindness, empathy, generosity, listening and active helping others are noteworthy characteristics.

 

I'd agree. The whole nice = dull, nasty = sexy thing was brilliantly captured by that eternal Brangelina versus Jennifer Aniston scenario that the media kept going for so long. Jennifer Aniston radiates niceness. I can't speak to how men perceive her, but from a woman's perspective she looks fun, chilled out, happy, friendly and generally the kind of person you would want to hang out with. Angelina Jolie, on the other hand, has a high maintenance vibe about her that I would find off-putting.

 

Yet Angelina Jolie does all these good works, adopts kids from foreign lands etc. One feels duty bound to extend some admiration to her. The woman's working huge amounts of overtime to demonstrate what a good, kind person she is...and yet still she gives out this cold and unlikeable vibe. Even when she's smiling. The good works may well come from the heart rather than from any place of trying to win status as a great humanitarian...but the latter is so much easier to believe. So Angelina Jolie as a "nice person" gives the word nice all those negative vibes that people associate with niceness as a form of manipulation and therefore not to be trusted. With Jennifer Aniston, nice would just be - yes, as you say, charismatic, friendly and fun to hang out with.

 

A nice guy who's the male equivalent of Jennifer Aniston is never going to be short of people wanting to be around him...and people wanting to be around him is one step closer to people wanting to have sex with him. The male equivalent of the "nice" Angelina Jolie character would probably be Bob Geldof, Bono or somebody like that. Narcissistic tossers, really, but others feel obliged to speak well of them on account of the good works they do.

 

If the factors that make a person nice are pretty much restricted to not behaving like a psychopath or doing lots of favours for other people (especially prettier, wealthier or more successful people), that's not necessarily going to create the feelgood buzz that makes other people want to be around that person. Especially if it's accompanied by a lot of griping and complaining.

[Jabron1]

I was told (by a player obviously) that on some of the dates I went on that if I didn't kiss on a first date, us sexual innuendo, etc. that I was basically a "choir boy", "boy scout" or 'nice guy".

 

Not sure what he meant by that, but apparently chivalry is associated with nice guys and NOT "manly men" and that I wasn't being a "manly man" because I was busy being too gentlemanly.

 

That all women are just as sexual as men and preferred to be "ravished" in the moment.

 

I.e. - holding hands, opening doors for my date, etc.

 

I was on a date with a woman going out swimming all day, and he was like, "Dude, you had her in her swimsuit and didn't even make a move?" This was our first real date, so I was more into keeping it light...I did flirt however, but apparently being an "octopus" is something, "manly men" should do and not "nice guys"

 

Would this dating situation fall into the same wheel house as "nice guys".

 

 

Okay, here's the rub:

 

Did you want to kiss her on the first date?

 

What did you want?

[Necris]

I'm introverted, don't drink, don't go clubbing, hobbies are guy oriented and I have an average face. Was born with a debilitating illness that led to a childhood filled with pain and isolation from my peers. I'm better as an adult, but still face serious challenges.

 

Yet, I have no problem getting dates. Since puberty, the only time I've spent without the interest or companionship of at least one girl or woman were the times I've chosen to be alone. Otherwise, I've always had at least one woman in the mix. Always.

 

I suspect the reason you can't get dates is something else. That laundry list of excuses hasn't stopped me or many others.

 

Well good for you, not sure what your illness is but it's good you don't let it slow you down but, I never had your luck in dating.

 

As for your hobbies it depends on what they are creating apps in Java and street racing are both guy oriented hobbies but one is considered more exciting.

 

If you are unattractive you are probably better at knowing who is interested and who won't be.

 

Do girls ever flirt with you or do you have to go in cold?

 

Anyway my original point was nice guy really is code for ugly guy.

[hasaquestion]

Anyway my original point was nice guy really is code for ugly guy.

 

Which isn't true.

Nice guy is code for "there isn't something I can perceive as clearly and obviously wrong with them".

A person being nice is like a restaurant serving food. It's a start, but if you want to go out you're probably looking for a particularly nice restaurant. No one ever looked through the window of a restaurant and said, "man this place is has tables! And plates too!"

Don't confuse "people aren't specifically choosing ____ BECAUSE they are nice" and "people don't care if they'd describe you as nice or not".

[Necris]

Which isn't true.

Nice guy is code for "there isn't something I can perceive as clearly and obviously wrong with them".

A person being nice is like a restaurant serving food. It's a start, but if you want to go out you're probably looking for a particularly nice restaurant. No one ever looked through the window of a restaurant and said, "man this place is has tables! And plates too!"

Don't confuse "people aren't specifically choosing ____ BECAUSE they are nice" and "people don't care if they'd describe you as nice or not".

 

So my original point still stands nice guy really is code for ugly guy whose only saving attribute is he's nice, if the only good thing I have to say about a restaurant is that it has tables and plates probably means it's terrible.

 

So when a girl tells a guy "you're such a nice guy I'm surprised you haven't found anyone I'm sure you'll find someone soon." she's really trying to be nice but everyone knows you're really just ugly but you are a nice guy so maybe their will be a girl desperate enough to date you one day.