Why do people always say "Nice Guys Finish Last"?

[carhill]

Nice guys who finish last tend to not receive or misunderstand the message that all is fair in love and war. People who get the meaning look upon them knowingly and opine, yup, there's another one who'll finish last in the race because he stuck to his sense of the global rules of fair play.

 

I ran into this in my early 20's when, if finding a lady attractive, refraining from asking her out or pursuing her if I determined she was married. Other, more insightful and successful men, took things further, vetting her commitment to the marriage and whether, or not, she was open to other options in love and interaction. They understood that all was fair in love and war and the seeking of mates was, around here anyway, a lot like war. Playing by 'the rules' and being 'nice' and 'respectful' was, for lack of a more descriptive term, laughable.

 

In fairness, in general, nice 'people' finish last in love and war, meaning they are more likely to get beaten to a pulp, literally or figuratively or, in the case of war, killed, because they make the choice to follow some arbitrary set of rules and/or be respectful of and civil with their fellow humans. We see everyday what succeeds in life and what fails. Yeah, we put a nice spin on it to soothe our ego but the reality is there. Everyone loves a winner and despises and, best case, pities losers. Anyone who finishes last is a loser, as defined by society, regardless of the 'nice guy' medals given out for participation.

[xxoo]

Think of business. Who gets ahead? The "guy" (not just men, btw) who takes risks or the guy who is careful to always be seen as the good guy?

 

Fortune favors the bold. It's great to be nice, and many successful people are truly nice to the people they love. But they aren't worried about being nice. They are going for what they want, leaving some others in their dust.

[basil67]

That is what she tells you, you are her dad. Saying "Dad, wow my new boyfriend has some of the sexiest legs I've seen" is probably not going to go over well.

 

Most likely she has been seeing him for some time before telling you he's her new boyfriend.

 

People generally get attracted first to the person's physical appearance and once this happens they are willingly to date this person, during the dating process they learn more about their other attributes and if this is what they are in to, they then try out a relationship becoming boyfriend and girlfriend, if this relationship seems to be working they may then go further into a marriage.

 

 

Common interests and compatibility help keep the relationship together, but physical attractiveness is what get the sparks flying.

 

If you have nothing but common interests and compatibility you become merely friends.

 

I'm her mother - not her father. And yes, there is a strong sexual attraction between them - she doesn't keep stuff like that a secret. However, she was first attracted to him because of his chivalry on the snow. And we're not talking about the chivalry he showed to her (she didn't need help) but to the chivalry he showed his beginner skiing mate. Instead of showing off his skiing, he'd stop and pick his mate up each time he fell over.

 

As far as how long they'd been seeing each other, I knew she was interested in him before she did. When she told me they'd gone official, I was surprised it took them so long.

 

Yes, looks can and do attract a person first. But this has nothing to do with being a 'good guy'. Some bad boys who attract women aren't particularly good looking and some 'good guys' who can't get a girl are quite good looking.

 

You mentioned how you can't see that your thoughts are rude. Now, I've always been a woman who's avoided bad boys and gone for good blokes. But if you started telling me your theories on what women want face to face, I wouldn't hesitate to walk out on you. I mean seriously, would you date a girl who thinks that all guys are just out for one thing? It's no different.

[Necris]

I'm her mother - not her father. And yes, there is a strong sexual attraction between them - she doesn't keep stuff like that a secret. However, she was first attracted to him because of his chivalry on the snow. And we're not talking about the chivalry he showed to her (she didn't need help) but to the chivalry he showed his beginner skiing mate. Instead of showing off his skiing, he'd stop and pick his mate up each time he fell over.

 

As far as how long they'd been seeing each other, I knew she was interested in him before she did. When she told me they'd gone official, I was surprised it took them so long.

 

Yes, looks can and do attract a person first. But this has nothing to do with being a 'good guy'. Some bad boys who attract women aren't particularly good looking and some 'good guys' who can't get a girl are quite good looking.

 

You mentioned how you can't see that your thoughts are rude. Now, I've always been a woman who's avoided bad boys and gone for good blokes. But if you started telling me your theories on what women want face to face, I wouldn't hesitate to walk out on you. I mean seriously, would you date a girl who thinks that all guys are just out for one thing? It's no different.

 

Idk, his chivalry sounded like just common decency, if you're going skiing with your friends you should at least make sure they're alright and help them up if they fall.

 

Anyway, what I'm saying is that if her boyfriend was physically unattractive but seemed like a good guy, they'd probably just be good friends not in a relationship as they wouldn't have even gone on a date.

 

As for ugly guys with poor personalities attracting women, they can but usually they're going to have a tough time unless they can put up a mask to at least hide their real personality which is what they normally do, since their looks aren't going to save them, or they just got money, or their really good at selecting for the type of women who would be attractive to them anyway.

 

Attractive guys with good personalities that can't find women probably just have really, really high standards and the girls they are attracted to are only attracted to a very small/particular subset of men so do not find them attractive. Or the guy may not really even be searching. And maybe he has unusually poor social skills. But generally if he's attractive women will at least be willing to go on a date with him, and if he has an attractive personality they would be willing to possibly start a relationship with him.

 

 

Now one thing I admit I forgot about is the effect of charisma. People who know exactly what to say, how to say it, and when will do very well in dating even if they are unattractive because they can make themselves seem far more attractive because of their social skill and ability to charm others with their words.

 

Still not sure how it is rude to say, most women want attractive men, sounds like common knowledge to me. Sure their are some women out there somewhere who do not care for physical attractiveness but let's be honest they aren't the norm.

 

And yeah most guys want attractive women, sure some guys out there may not care about how a girl looks but this isn't your average American guy.

 

 

 

Now looks aren't everything, someone with nothing but good looks will have a hard time getting any sort of relationship going but good looks are the things that get your foot in the door.

[ZA Dater]

*Facepalm* You really don't take anything we've said on board do you.

 

Let me fix it for you.

 

The problem facing perpetually single nice guys (as opposed to the majority of nice guys who have relationships) is that they have little to offer other than being nice and employable. They don't know how to improve their social skills. They don't know how to be a good conversationalist. They think that being an arsehole is the solution to their problems. And most importantly, they DON'T LISTEN to all the advice given by women who date and love nice guys.

 

In terms of the topic at hand this is about as generalised as the rest of the thread!

 

I happen to agree with the OP that looks are the be all and end when it comes to ladies choosing men, fact remains being intelligent doesn't get the lady to come talk to you, being muscular and good looking does, being intelligent and articulate doesn't ever work as a draw card because if it did I wouldn't be 32 and never had a girlfriend.

 

I think many ladies profess to like nice guys, however I think nice guys are often not dominant guys and perhaps this really is where the problem lies, they aren't dominant and that is about as much of turnoff as possible.

[basil67]

In terms of the topic at hand this is about as generalised as the rest of the thread!

 

I happen to agree with the OP that looks are the be all and end when it comes to ladies choosing men, fact remains being intelligent doesn't get the lady to come talk to you, being muscular and good looking does, being intelligent and articulate doesn't ever work as a draw card because if it did I wouldn't be 32 and never had a girlfriend.

 

I think many ladies profess to like nice guys, however I think nice guys are often not dominant guys and perhaps this really is where the problem lies, they aren't dominant and that is about as much of turnoff as possible.

 

If all you have to offer is intelligence and being articulate, then of course you're single. Are you good company? A good conversationalist? Are you interesting? Do you have an interesting lifestyle? A good social group? If you're out with a group, can you flash a girl a smile? A genuine smile will get me any day over a guy who's just brawny.

 

I grant you that a guy or girl who's truly fugly would struggle to find a partner - but very few people fit that category. The far majority of humans are just variations of regular.

 

When you talk about dominance being an attractive trait, you're almost right. But it's not dominance which is attractive, it's assertiveness. If a guy isn't assertive, then he's not attractive. Do you know the difference between dominance and assertiveness?

 

Plenty of nice guys are assertive. I know many and they all have partners. But the timid or the doormats? Not a chance.

[GemmaUK]

The jerkiest guys that I have dated were the only guys I dated who

self-proclaimed that they were nice guys.

[basil67]

Idk, his chivalry sounded like just common decency, if you're going skiing with your friends you should at least make sure they're alright and help them up if they fall.

 

Anyway, what I'm saying is that if her boyfriend was physically unattractive but seemed like a good guy, they'd probably just be good friends not in a relationship as they wouldn't have even gone on a date.

 

As for ugly guys with poor personalities attracting women, they can but usually they're going to have a tough time unless they can put up a mask to at least hide their real personality which is what they normally do, since their looks aren't going to save them, or they just got money, or their really good at selecting for the type of women who would be attractive to them anyway.

 

Attractive guys with good personalities that can't find women probably just have really, really high standards and the girls they are attracted to are only attracted to a very small/particular subset of men so do not find them attractive. Or the guy may not really even be searching. And maybe he has unusually poor social skills. But generally if he's attractive women will at least be willing to go on a date with him, and if he has an attractive personality they would be willing to possibly start a relationship with him.

 

 

Now one thing I admit I forgot about is the effect of charisma. People who know exactly what to say, how to say it, and when will do very well in dating even if they are unattractive because they can make themselves seem far more attractive because of their social skill and ability to charm others with their words.

 

Still not sure how it is rude to say, most women want attractive men, sounds like common knowledge to me. Sure their are some women out there somewhere who do not care for physical attractiveness but let's be honest they aren't the norm.

 

And yeah most guys want attractive women, sure some guys out there may not care about how a girl looks but this isn't your average American guy.

 

 

 

Now looks aren't everything, someone with nothing but good looks will have a hard time getting any sort of relationship going but good looks are the things that get your foot in the door.

 

Yep, the act of chivalry IS simply common decency. Chivalry isn't about treating a woman nicely because she's a woman. It's about treating a fellow human being nicely because it's the right thing to do.

 

In your first post, you wrote >>The real reason "nice guys" finish last is because "nice guys" are simply unattractive men who are also nice,<<

 

For me, the definition of a "nice guy" is a guy who is a good bloke. Not an arsehole. It's why I have always dated nice guys. Looks wise, they have always been average. Average face, average build. Not gorgeous and not fugly.

 

However, if your definition of 'nice guy' means that he's an 'unattractive good bloke', then we will have to agree to disagree on our perception of what a nice guy is.

 

If it were true that most men and most women were only interested in getting to know attractive partners, then only the most attractive people would be in relationships. But it's not the case. Pretty much everyone I see in relationships are just variations of average.

 

This last point is where I always dig my heels in with this argument. If there weren't plenty of unattactive single people, I'd agree with you. But it's simply not the case. Even men who don't appeal to me have clearly appealed to someone else. And vice verca.

 

In short, I think that statistics and the simple act of looking at couples around us let your argument down.

[Emilia]

I seem to recall you were given good advice by male posters here OP in the past. Namely to cut down on the creepy fascination with the sort of stuff that your username and avatar suggest and try to find interest and hobbies that most - normal and social - women can relate to.

[basil67]

I will confess that my daughter's very first boyfriend drew her in with his looks. She was totally intrigued by his goth style.

[ZA Dater]

If all you have to offer is intelligence and being articulate, then of course you're single. Are you good company? A good conversationalist? Are you interesting? Do you have an interesting lifestyle? A good social group? If you're out with a group, can you flash a girl a smile? A genuine smile will get me any day over a guy who's just brawny.

 

I grant you that a guy or girl who's truly fugly would struggle to find a partner - but very few people fit that category. The far majority of humans are just variations of regular.

 

When you talk about dominance being an attractive trait, you're almost right. But it's not dominance which is attractive, it's assertiveness. If a guy isn't assertive, then he's not attractive. Do you know the difference between dominance and assertiveness?

 

Plenty of nice guys are assertive. I know many and they all have partners. But the timid or the doormats? Not a chance.

 

All highly subjective, I live an interesting life but even that isn't enough to draw anyone I am interested in. Sure, if I had the person of "oh that will do", sure then most nice guys could find someone but my experience with like minded guys like me is we want something specific and anything that isn't along those lines is not interesting.

 

At the end of the day I think many nice guys who don't get anywhere with dating end up becoming bitter guys with a façade of niceness about them. The heart is pure but the mind is jaded.

 

I still believe being assertive may help but where do you draw the line there, where does assertive become dominance?

 

When it comes to looks, unfortunately these count more than any intellectual gift, more than any knowledge or other acumen the guy may have.

 

Its really all subjective though, its easy to feel down, its easy to start these sorts of thread and its easy to blame the world, to ask why but one wont ever understand why and its easy to try apportion blame.

 

Ultimately the buck stops with the individual person, nice guys blame many things but really they can control one thing: themselves.

[elaine567]

I still believe being assertive may help but where do you draw the line there, where does assertive become dominance?

 

 

"Power is a constant player in interpersonal relationships. And the path to power is not dominance over others but the ability to speak up for oneself. The key distinction is the difference between aggression and assertion.. Assertiveness means being able to make overtures to other people, to stand up for oneself in a nonaggressive way, to speak up when others make demands, and to make suggestions or requests to others in a group.."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200402/assertive-not-aggressive

[basil67]

All highly subjective, I live an interesting life but even that isn't enough to draw anyone I am interested in. Sure, if I had the person of "oh that will do", sure then most nice guys could find someone but my experience with like minded guys like me is we want something specific and anything that isn't along those lines is not interesting.

 

At the end of the day I think many nice guys who don't get anywhere with dating end up becoming bitter guys with a façade of niceness about them. The heart is pure but the mind is jaded.

 

I still believe being assertive may help but where do you draw the line there, where does assertive become dominance?

 

When it comes to looks, unfortunately these count more than any intellectual gift, more than any knowledge or other acumen the guy may have.

 

Its really all subjective though, its easy to feel down, its easy to start these sorts of thread and its easy to blame the world, to ask why but one wont ever understand why and its easy to try apportion blame.

 

Ultimately the buck stops with the individual person, nice guys blame many things but really they can control one thing: themselves.

 

I know you're quite choosy about who you will date. I don't know if you believe in Karma, but I believe that what you put out into the universe comes back to you. I've always believed that being open about what someone else has to offer will return to you in kind. Of course, if you don't want to that's fine.

 

Not sure of the difference between assertive and dominant? This seriously could be part of your problem. Elaine gave a good post, but I will do a different comment:

 

Assertiveness is about working with a person to help solve a problem. It's about respecting them and their needs while still holding strong about your own needs. Dominance is about pushing your agenda on another person. A dominant person cares more about their own needs than those around them.

 

If I had to draw a picture a dominant person, I kinda see someone squashing down everyone around them. If I had to draw a picture of an assertive person, it would be all smiley faces with everyone being on the same level.

 

And yes, I totally agree with you on the last two paragraphs. And I think the longer one is single with no answers, the more confounding the problem becomes.

[PrettyEmily77]

Now looks aren't everything, someone with nothing but good looks will have a hard time getting any sort of relationship going but good looks are the things that get your foot in the door.

 

No, your power of attraction is what gets your foot in the door, and that's true for people of any age and gender (unless they are particularly shallow, which can also happen with people of any age and gender).

 

For instance, I may find any random A-List actor good looking, but it doesn't necessarily mean I want to bed them on the spot; other guys perhaps less conventionally good-looking I have wanted to tear the shirt off on sight because there is something about them I have found irresistible - I never did though, because I have manners (and nowadays mostly because it wouldn't fly with my SO).

 

None of which has nothing to do with being 'nice', incidentally.

[Necris]

I seem to recall you were given good advice by male posters here OP in the past. Namely to cut down on the creepy fascination with the sort of stuff that your username and avatar suggest and try to find interest and hobbies that most - normal and social - women can relate to.

 

I don't have any creepy fascinations, the Necris avatar is actually a video game character from Unreal Tournament (online fps back in the day it was popular like CoD today) one of the most favorite games I've ever played. Liked it because of just how crazy fast paced it was, you have to dodge rockets

 

My hobbies are playing video games, programming, watching sci-fi and anime, reading, and hiking.

[Necris]

Yep, the act of chivalry IS simply common decency. Chivalry isn't about treating a woman nicely because she's a woman. It's about treating a fellow human being nicely because it's the right thing to do.

 

In your first post, you wrote >>The real reason "nice guys" finish last is because "nice guys" are simply unattractive men who are also nice,<<

 

For me, the definition of a "nice guy" is a guy who is a good bloke. Not an arsehole. It's why I have always dated nice guys. Looks wise, they have always been average. Average face, average build. Not gorgeous and not fugly.

 

However, if your definition of 'nice guy' means that he's an 'unattractive good bloke', then we will have to agree to disagree on our perception of what a nice guy is.

 

If it were true that most men and most women were only interested in getting to know attractive partners, then only the most attractive people would be in relationships. But it's not the case. Pretty much everyone I see in relationships are just variations of average.

 

This last point is where I always dig my heels in with this argument. If there weren't plenty of unattactive single people, I'd agree with you. But it's simply not the case. Even men who don't appeal to me have clearly appealed to someone else. And vice verca.

 

In short, I think that statistics and the simple act of looking at couples around us let your argument down.

 

Being nice because it's the right thing to do is what I'd say a nice guy is like. I treat people with respect like how I'd want to be treated not as part of a plan to get a girl to like me but because its the right thing to do, besides it's physical attraction that creates sparks.

 

But when I was describing the "nice guy" I wasn't saying good guys are all unattractive but the good guy who can't get a date is most likely unattractive so the whole point was that whether he's nice or bad won't matter much unless he's attractive to the girl.

 

For example lets say a girl doesn't date black guys, so if a black man approaches her it doesn't matter if he's a really great guy she's going to immediately reject him because she isn't attracted to how he looks like.

 

As for unattractive people getting dates, what is attractive to one person can be attractive to another, but a lot of the time people settle, if you're a middle aged balding man with a beer belly you might want to cross supermodels out of your mind for the women you prefer unless you're very wealthy and like gold diggers or have some super charisma.

[basil67]

I don't have any creepy fascinations, the Necris avatar is actually a video game character from Unreal Tournament (online fps back in the day it was popular like CoD today) one of the most favorite games I've ever played. Liked it because of just how crazy fast paced it was, you have to dodge rockets

 

My hobbies are playing video games, programming, watching sci-fi and anime, reading, and hiking.

 

Oh no - I was going to share my interest in Victorian Post Mortem photography with you

[Jabron1]

Simple answer? 'Nice guys' put other peoples needs/wants before their own.

[basil67]

Simple answer? 'Nice guys' put other peoples needs/wants before their own.

 

*I'm so confused*.

 

So what do we call a thoughtful and caring guy who's assertive?

[xxoo]

*I'm so confused*.

 

So what do we call a thoughtful and caring guy who's assertive?

 

Hot

[Jabron1]

*I'm so confused*.

 

So what do we call a thoughtful and caring guy who's assertive?

 

You understand what 'nice-guy' means, yeah?

 

Intent is everything. Nice-guys have a particular way and reason behind behaving the way they do.

 

However, nobody is completely benevolent.

 

Words such as 'thoughful' and 'caring' get thrown around like confetti. We can all be seen as these things to some, and absolute b*stards to others.

 

Even Hitler was a proud vegetarian lol. Ghandi refused to allow his wife medication and she consequentially died but then took medication himself, etc.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Jabron1

[jay1983]

There's some truth to what your saying, but you're painting too black and white. It's not all about looks and nice guys are usually pretty lame. Now while I do think the personality/confidence thing is often over played here, there's some truth to that as well. Watch Justin Timberlake on bad teacher and maybe you'll get it.

 

Edit: oh and like people say, nice guys usually do have ulterior motive, I've seen it plenty and I see a lot of it on this site.

Edited May 24, 2016 by jay1983

[Necris]

There's some truth to what your saying, but you're painting too black and white. It's not all about looks and nice guys are usually pretty lame. Now while I do think the personality/confidence thing is often over played here, there's some truth to that as well. Watch Justin Timberlake on bad teacher and maybe you'll get it.

 

Well confidence gives you the ability to approach a girl, if you're attractive but not confident the girls will still be attracted but they maybe too intimidated (girls rarely approach guys) too approach so they may flirt a little and if you don't respond they'll just assume you aren't interested so nothing actually happens between the two of you.

 

For example I had a friend who had confidence issues and really had a crush on this girl he liked, so after alot of persuasion I was finally able to get him to actually talk to her and helped guide him on some of these things to say and he was actually able to get the girl. Unfortunately we drifted apart after that as he started spending more and more time with the girl and not hanging out with his boys, but oh well.

 

Now what was going for him was that he wasn't actually an ugly dude and knew how to dress just wasn't confident.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Necris

[SammySammy]

There is a time and place for everything.

 

Male lions are kind and gentle with their cubs, but, don't get it twisted, this dude is still the King of Beasts. Everyone in the jungle knows it. Because he still does what beasts do. Still lives his life by a code. Though he's nice and kind ... sometimes.

 

Human nice guys get life messed up when they think they can be kiss asses and pushovers and not suffer the consequences of being kiss asses and pushovers.

 

There are always times to be caring and considerate. Even for so-called "alpha males". It's a good idea if you want to have any successful relationships in this world - work, familial, romantic or otherwise.

 

However, the key is knowing when, where and how to be nice, thoughtful, considerate, aggressive, vicious ....

 

Nice guys - whether sincere or insincere - get treated like nice guys. That's kinda how life works. We all reap what we sow.

 

For some of us, however, our manhood is not based on being nice. Live by a different code. A different creed.

[basil67]

You understand what 'nice-guy' means, yeah?

 

Intent is everything. Nice-guys have a particular way and reason behind behaving the way they do.

 

However, nobody is completely benevolent.

 

Words such as 'thoughful' and 'caring' get thrown around like confetti. We can all be seen as these things to some, and absolute b*stards to others.

 

Even Hitler was a proud vegetarian lol. Ghandi refused to allow his wife medication and she consequentially died but then took medication himself, etc.

 

No, I'm starting to think that I don't know what the term 'nice guy' means.

 

Let's use my hubby for example. He's a good bloke. He treats women respectfully, he is well liked socially and respected at work. He's equally comfortable downing beers with the boys or doing something nice with me. He's a great dad. He doesn't take advantage of people, but he does have strong personal boundaries. And frankly, the same description could be used to describe the far majority of married men who I know.

 

Now, I would have called him a nice guy, but apparently nice guys don't get girls and are walked all over. So perhaps he's not a nice guy. So what term do we use to describe a man who's like this?

 

The reason I ask is because I need the words to explain that there exists a sweet spot in between loser dateless and arsehole with a girlfriend.