No wonder (some) men struggle

[dreamingoftigers]

The problem is that there are way fewer good role models for men than there used to be. How many men these days are raised by single mothers? How do you expect men who were raised without a dad to have a decent idea of how relationships work? The families that are shown on TV (sitcoms etc.) are usually not exactly great role models either. You can't start educating adult men on how relationships are supposed to work, it's way too late by then. Men need to learn how relationships work while they are still children. They need to see their parents getting along very well, they need to experience the love between a man and a woman as a child, not read about it as an adult, much in the same way that other social behaviour is learned by experience.

 

I agree. The lack of male role models creates a generational issue for sure.

 

My husband definitely had this gap, as did my father.

 

Both were rather disastrous to their relationships. However my father has been with my mother 40+ years. Mom is VERY patient. At least my father exercised a fair amount of commitment to marriage/family. I don't give him ten gold stars because he was VERY difficult to grow up with and he did hae an affair which came to light in mid-life. But I honestly think if he had grown up with a reasonable male role-model, instead of a parade of step-fathers, he probably wouldn't have been half-bad. I will say that he's a MUCH BETTER grandfather than father/husband. Although if you asked my mother, she praises him much higher than I do.

 

My husband grew up with a parade of abandonment as well (5 fathers, 4 mothers). Frankly, he stretched our marriage very far past a reasonable limit, but then rebounded when he was able to calculate the loss. He very much loves our daughter, but the adjustment to fatherhood was very rocky. And this was after she was planned, anticipated and arriving. Apparently parenthood awakens people's underlying baggage (if they so have it) like a sort of timebomb.

[dreamingoftigers]

That type of masculinity you refer to that is considered instinctively attractive by men amongst themselves, I would wager.

 

For instance, where I live, there are plenty of SAHDs who are considered an example of masculinity, self-assurance and security by their wives (and their friends!!) because they're not the type to feel threatened by appearances and the rumour-mill.

 

Actually, my husband gets a fair amount of fuss made over him for the type of Dad he is. He is not a SAHD. He has been at times. We switch out every now and then depending on income / family needs etc. I put in a lot more hours just prior to Mat leave for instance, and he's putting in some more hours now to finish up an elective course he wants done next week.

 

Women often totally LOVE an involved Dad. I have no doubt my husband would be off the market in a matter of a few short months if I kicked him to the curb, especially if he was into step-fathering.

 

Worker Bees are pretty common in society. Intuitive, kind fathers who are consistent are in high demand.

[dreamingoftigers]

True to a point but self respect matters with these men. I know a woman who refers to her husband who does most of the housework as her little B word and once dumped a drink on the floor in front of her friends so he would clean it up. I don't see too many women being attracted to a man with so little self respect.

 

She sounds awesome.

 

My husband would NEVER tolerate that even if he was SAHD for two decades, I don't even want to imagine what his reaction would be.....wow.

 

That isn't about what "a woman does when she has a non-traditional domestic arrangement with a guy." That's what a bullying abuser does to someone she views as an object instead of a partner. Yikes.

[Kamille]

If women were biologically designed to be happy in marriage, than you would expect STAHM to report higher levels of happiness then everyone else. I don't know off hand of studies that have shown this, but it would be interesting to see a credible one (and not blog posts or podcaster's opinions).

 

As it stands, what we do know is that more hetero people are single than ever before and that, of the two genders, single women report being happier single than single men (who are single).

 

The explanation could be as simple as testosterone, for the biologically minded: bio-chem studies tells us that boosts in testosterone increase sex drives and that, of the two genders, men tend to have higher levels of it. So women fare better without regular sex than do men.

 

Or it could be, as the article suggests, that single woman are happier than single married women because their every day lives are less demanding. It would be interesting to control for the effects of parenthood. Basically, are married women without children similar to single women in their reported levels of happiness? Studies have shown, to much controversy, that parents tend to show lower levels of happiness

 

But my "controversial" take-away remains this: women are not experiencing some dire catastrophic state of mind from the new dating scene. In fact, the opposite seems to be true. The single lot of us are doing pretty well, thank you. So men interested in dating women, hooking up with women, or potentially having a relationship with women could want to take this into account, step up their game and bring something to the table.

.

[Aniela]

And thing is, people wanna ignore biology and think it's ok for a guy to be running around in an apron cooking, cleaning, and watching the kids - but biology sneaks up on us and women start disrespecting those same men they demand split the chores "she" had 50/50.

 

Biology has us women desiring men who are smarter, stronger, better than us - who can provide/protect us. Keep on thinking you can talk/think your way out of those roles, then scratch your head when you're not feeling horny for him anymore and/or he cheats on you and/or divorce happens.

 

You've never met a woman who swoons when her husband cooks, and/or does the washing up? I have.

[carhill]

You've never met a woman who swoons when her husband cooks, and/or does the washing up? I have.

Ha, ha, no, I did plenty of it when dating and while married, not because I was looking for any swooning but rather because I lived alone for many years and was used to it. On occasion my exW would shoo me out of the kitchen because I was stealing her work or 'hovering'. To me it was normal. Reflecting on the totality, I'd say my 'normal' was likely the single largest reason for struggling with dating. In fact, after I got divorced, my old habits returned and I'd help out after dinner parties at friend's homes and a few of the women commented that I'd 'make a good wife' someday. To me, it was normal - eat at someone's house, help clean up. The guys? You know the ones married to the women who get the bum deal? Out on the patio drinking beer, which I did too after helping out. I guess normal and bum deals depend on demographic.

[Revolver]

The stigma against single men and single women in general is equal. IMO what happens is women take how society views the very tiny percentage male players who have their pick and think that's how all single men are viewed. Male Celebrity bachelors lives are irrelevant to the average single guy

[Liam1]

 

Meanwhile in America, my boyfriend and I have a combined income far over 200k (we're at around the same salary level but he makes a tad more than me) and there is no. way. in. HELL we could afford to have one of us stay home with a kid. Cities are expensive. Even if we were way out in the sticks, it's laughable to think either of us would make enough relative to the local cost of living to stay home with a child.

 

Do you have any idea how much braces, piano lessons, new clothes and jogging strollers even cost? I can't imagine where you live that one-working-parent homes are the ideal or even the norm, because here in reality, it's not happening.

 

When did jogging strollers, and piano lessons become a necessity. Even braces. I have friends whose parents could not afford braces, when they were young, and those friends later paid for their own braces as adults.

 

Clothing is a necessity but unless one is buying designer clothing for their kids, if you can not afford to buy clothing, on one parent's $200,000 salary, than do not have kids.

 

I do not agree with everything Gloria25 says, but she does have many valid points. The biology issue is one.

 

Also, IMO, if a couple has children and one is earning $200,000 plus, they can afford for the mother to stay home and care for the children properly.

 

I do think that too much is expected of women, today IMO, it is NOT possible to have it all. And, there is a lot of shaming today of women who choose to be stay at home mothers.

 

IMO, a working mother is neither a good worker, nor a good mother.

 

As man who owns several business, I can tell you, I very carefully and secretly avoid hiring women with young children because the mothers I have hired are always needing time off to care for sick kids or what not. A lot of time off.

 

That is not fair to my other employees. Those employees have to pick up the slack for this working mother and that is not fair. It's not the entire work forces responsibility to take care of another family's children. That is the parent's responsibility and many seem to be shirking it.

 

IMO, a woman should have a career, when single, but when she decides to have children, she should put that career on hold and stay home to care for those children, until they are at least in High School.

 

If people can not afford for one parent to stay home to care for the children, perhaps they should not have children and perhaps they should invest in better birth control methods.

 

It's not like the old days where people would just OOPS get pregnant. There are excellent birth control methods today.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Liam1

[Kamille]

Crazy thought here, but what if fathers were expected to take time off work to take care of children? It's happening more and more in families where women are the highest income earners... More studies must be done.

[dreamingoftigers]

And thing is, people wanna ignore biology and think it's ok for a guy to be running around in an apron cooking, cleaning, and watching the kids - but biology sneaks up on us and women start disrespecting those same men they demand split the chores "she" had 50/50.

 

Biology has us women desiring men who are smarter, stronger, better than us - who can provide/protect us. Keep on thinking you can talk/think your way out of those roles, then scratch your head when you're not feeling horny for him anymore and/or he cheats on you and/or divorce happens.

 

My Dad is the breadwinner in the family, no doubt. 40+ years.

 

But he also LOVES to do the cooking. In fact, "get these kids out of MY KITCHEN!" was probably the Number 3 phrase yelled in my home growing up. The fits I have heard over broken egg yolks on Saturday mornings are unparalleled. (Ironically my own husband is the same way about the egg yolks, weird.)

 

My mother can't cook worth anything. Frankly, I think he would have only felt threatened by a woman in the kitchen.

 

I doubt anyone, meeting my father, would doubt his masculinity, EVER, unless at their own peril.

 

I think masculinity in his case is clearly standing up for what he wants to do and doing it, without fear of reprisal etc.

 

When they have company over, it's him that cooks dinner and ALWAYS has been. It's him that gets out even warming trays and entertains for 10-20 people. He LIKES to do it. Over the years I have occasionally heard the occasional person scoff at it. (Yes, I have actually heard this over time. It behooves me how rude some people can be while a guest in someone else's home.) Guess they won't be getting tenderloin served to them next year during BBQ season.

 

My mother can't make a grilled cheese sandwich. (OMG, it's so terrible. Seriously. Just the worst. I don't even know how it is possible.)

 

So how does that work? Is he LESS of a man for enjoying his kitchen, with his freaking eggs etc? Or is he more of a man because he has the balls to buy matching napkins and dishes with the little rings and have people over for dinner and doesn't give two craps what others think of it? Does his drive to cook for his family, including his little granddaughter who pops over for dinner make him a less likely candidate for respect? I honestly doubt it. In fact, I dare just about any guy to compete with him on any masculine area. He might not "win" in every category, but he would certainly hold his own.

 

It's not that he was "forced" into the kitchen for my mother's lack of skill. He doesn't want her there. Although, trust me, NO ONE wants her there and she doesn't want to be there. I love my mother, and she's a GREAT mother, but never, ever should anyone give her a pot or pan. NOT EVER. Blackened Grilled Cheese is NOT a Cajun dish.....

 

My husband loves to cook too. But that isn't quite the same thing as my parents have. Truly, my Dad OWNS that kitchen like it's his private domain and the other people living there are "allowed to use the fridge." LOL.

I can't believe that some folks would look at a man like my father and think "girly." It really makes me laugh.

[Liam1]

 

her levels of it. So women fare better without regular sex than do men.

 

Or it could be, as the article suggests, that single woman are happier than single married women because their every day lives are less demanding. It would be interesting to control for the effects of parenthood. Basically, are married women without children similar to single women in their reported levels of happiness? Studies have shown, to much controversy, that parents tend to show lower levels of happiness

 

 

.

 

There are many studies that show that people with children are less happy than people who remain child free.

 

Still, some people have the personality for being parents and others do not.

 

For those who do not have a parenting personality, in case they are unaware of it, there is something called birth control.

 

Perhaps it is a novel concept to some. Still, it is available.

 

But I think Gloria25s point is to know theyself. People should do some introspection prior to marriage. They should find out if they are compatible and that includes wanting to raise children as well as what type or marriage they want.

 

Do they want to be a working career couple or a working dad and stay at home full time mom type of family.

 

I am not talking about simply succumbing to the parent trap thing because society says, well, your 35 and now it's time to reproduce.

 

I am saying people by now, in the 21st century, should be evolved enough to rise above their primitive urge and ask themselves what it is exactly they want from life.

[dreamingoftigers]

If women were biologically designed to be happy in marriage, than you would expect STAHM to report higher levels of happiness then everyone else. I don't know off hand of studies that have shown this, but it would be interesting to see a credible one (and not blog posts or podcaster's opinions).

 

As it stands, what we do know is that more hetero people are single than ever before and that, of the two genders, single women report being happier single than single men (who are single).

 

The explanation could be as simple as testosterone, for the biologically minded: bio-chem studies tells us that boosts in testosterone increase sex drives and that, of the two genders, men tend to have higher levels of it. So women fare better without regular sex than do men.

 

Or it could be, as the article suggests, that single woman are happier than single married women because their every day lives are less demanding. It would be interesting to control for the effects of parenthood. Basically, are married women without children similar to single women in their reported levels of happiness? Studies have shown, to much controversy, that parents tend to show lower levels of happiness

 

But my "controversial" take-away remains this: women are not experiencing some dire catastrophic state of mind from the new dating scene. In fact, the opposite seems to be true. The single lot of us are doing pretty well, thank you. So men interested in dating women, hooking up with women, or potentially having a relationship with women could want to take this into account, step up their game and bring something to the table.

.

 

I find that in the last week of being home (newborn baby) that I am getting down about being here full-time.

 

I am not surprised by this at all and want to clarify a little further.

 

The baby is GREAT. He's really cute in fact. Cuddly. Difficult and fussy. Disrupts sleep etc. It's not him at all. He's the whole reason I am full-time at home for the moment.

 

But I simply CANNOT imagine doing this day in and out for years. Just can't.

 

There is only so much housework that needs doing and he is sleeping so often, so not even a whole crap ton of stuff needs to be done for him across the whole day. But when he needs to feed, it is RIGHT NOW. He does need to be watched constantly because he refluxes and can choke (has choked) pretty easily. Hopefully it passes soon.

 

So what I have found is largely boredom. I don't find it "relaxing" or "productive" at this point.

 

My work does allow me to work here. Basically my husband and I work at the same place, so we are able to split our demands up and take over for each other as needed. I do miss having earning capacity and providing for fun things etc for our family. There is so much more to do at work. It goes somewhere. It gives back to my family.

 

My mother became a SAHM after my brother's injury. Half of her life is on the damn couch watching TV now. And she has 3 degrees. Just blah.

 

Plus the feeling of burdening my husband with a full load of "you just work for us honey" is pretty crappy. Even though my Mat leave will come through soon.

[xxoo]

If women were biologically designed to be happy in marriage, than you would expect STAHM to report higher levels of happiness then everyone else. I don't know off hand of studies that have shown this, but it would be interesting to see a credible one (and not blog posts or podcaster's opinions).

 

As it stands, what we do know is that more hetero people are single than ever before and that, of the two genders, single women report being happier single than single men (who are single).

 

The explanation could be as simple as testosterone, for the biologically minded: bio-chem studies tells us that boosts in testosterone increase sex drives and that, of the two genders, men tend to have higher levels of it. So women fare better without regular sex than do men.

 

Or it could be, as the article suggests, that single woman are happier than single married women because their every day lives are less demanding. It would be interesting to control for the effects of parenthood. Basically, are married women without children similar to single women in their reported levels of happiness? Studies have shown, to much controversy, that parents tend to show lower levels of happiness

 

But my "controversial" take-away remains this: women are not experiencing some dire catastrophic state of mind from the new dating scene. In fact, the opposite seems to be true. The single lot of us are doing pretty well, thank you. So men interested in dating women, hooking up with women, or potentially having a relationship with women could want to take this into account, step up their game and bring something to the table.

.

 

I don't know about being biologically designed to be happy in marriage, because what model of marriage? My own marriage doesn't reflect much of what I've read on this thread, or even the model suggested by research (which I know is a common model). My life would be easier without kids, sure, but it would not be easier without my husband. We help each other. That should be the model for marriage, imo, but sadly it doesn't seem to be the case. I do think that many people (men and women), as social creatures, are biologically designed to enjoy interdependent and supportive relationships. It's good for survival.

 

I agree with the conclusion that women are generally more content single than men are, possibly due to a richer social support system, and possibly due to lower testosterone/sexual need. And yes, that means that women are content to stay single rather than dating a man who doesn't excite her. Can anyone blame her?

[dreamingoftigers]

When did jogging strollers, and piano lessons become a necessity. Even braces. I have friends whose parents could not afford braces, when they were young, and those friends later paid for their own braces as adults.

 

Clothing is a necessity but unless one is buying designer clothing for their kids, if you can not afford to buy clothing, on one parent's $200,000 salary, than do not have kids.

 

I do not agree with everything Gloria25 says, but she does have many valid points. The biology issue is one.

 

Also, IMO, if a couple has children and one is earning $200,000 plus, they can afford for the mother to stay home and care for the children properly.

 

I do think that too much is expected of women, today IMO, it is NOT possible to have it all. And, there is a lot of shaming today of women who choose to be stay at home mothers.

 

IMO, a working mother is neither a good worker, nor a good mother.

 

As man who owns several business, I can tell you, I very carefully and secretly avoid hiring women with young children because the mothers I have hired are always needing time off to care for sick kids or what not. A lot of time off.

 

That is not fair to my other employees. Those employees have to pick up the slack for this working mother and that is not fair. It's not the entire work forces responsibility to take care of another family's children. That is the parent's responsibility and many seem to be shirking it.

 

IMO, a woman should have a career, when single, but when she decides to have children, she should put that career on hold and stay home to care for those children, until they are at least in High School.

 

If people can not afford for one parent to stay home to care for the children, perhaps they should not have children and perhaps they should invest in better birth control methods.

 

It's not like the old days where people would just OOPS get pregnant. There are excellent birth control methods today.

 

This is the antiquated idea-set that kept me very down last time I was looking for a job. And it REALLY sucked.

 

You know who stays home with my sick kids? My husband. Often. And my daughter is sick maybe once or twice a year.

 

I just gave birth and can't wait to be back at the office.

Not many men have the work ethic I do and I provide a Hell of a lot more to the office than I would say, ANY other man that works there (with the exception of my husband, but even then I get on his case about certain things. Working with a spouse that KNOWS what is supposed to be done on certain projects is a PITA, I get that).

 

I can't believe the questions I was asked at EVERY job interview except for ONE last time I was looking for work. I swear, men with your mindset look for every excuse NOT TO HIRE women and then blame women or biology for the crap ethics you promote. I was asked things like my marital status and if "my husband would mind me working with a bunch of guys" ????? ARE YOU KIDDING? I need to let my employer know a home opinion poll of what my husband thinks to work at a reno supply company??????? I get asked about my kids, childcare, NONE OF ANYONE'S BUSINESS! Maybe they should ask me about sick days and references instead! Just like anyone with a penis!

 

It's 2016, women actually, overall, in general provide top productivity in most fields that they directly compete with men. And yet we get the shaft because the men that have risen to the top in the current workplaces are older and still have these outdated ideas. My job, which I put two years into is still ridiculous, trying to force a year's Mat Leave down my throat. How many dishes do they think I can load into a dishwasher in the course of a year!? And frankly, I've been out of the office for a week and they are already hitting gridlock because NO ONE listened to me about where all of the notes / files are for how to do Standard Ops. I can't believe they wasted almost 2 hours yesterday trying to order pens from the supplier and getting choked up over a shipping address that is in a DROP DOWN MENU. And not one person thought to check a simple instructional folder or call me at home.

 

I think that maybe as well, men aren't going to call in with "Sick Kids." They call in with hangovers or "sick days" that aren't disguised as "Sick kids" because "men don't do that."

 

I would love to see your stats on that because there are plenty plenty plenty of absentee employees out there with and without kids. It's just that certain excuses are more acceptable for men to use than women.

 

If you are finding your standards of productivity are suffering in your workplace, then it is time to clarify what your standard is and have performance reviews. Make clear what you expect and track from your employees, male and female. But I don't expect a man who "secretly doesn't hire women" to make such a bold move and actually try to hire productive people instead of "people who don't have ovaries and fit my personal agenda of how they should govern their personal life."

 

By the way, your hiring practices aren't a "secret." It's just that no one has reviewed them yet. They aren't likely to either because unfortunately men have been patting each other on the back for so long while excluding women from basic opportunities to provide that the odds of your company coming under scrutiny are low. Unfortunately. I am so glad many baby boomers are hitting retirement, maybe we can clean up some of the damage. Not all of it of course given the aging population and the demographic challenge we face. But some of it.

 

I hope that your paternalistic company fails and makes way for a better competitor. So that men and women in that company can provide for their families and build a small corner of society into a better place. I have a daughter and a son. I hope they both end up working in places (whether they work for a company or run it) that respects hard work and people instead of whatever lame stereotypes that should have died over 50 years ago. Pathetic we still see this attitude in 2016.

 

I see this also as another reason men struggle. Most men that retain attitudes like this will have trouble dating. Not in the short-term. In fact I think many women will give a guy a shot. But then, as they realize that this man has no actual respect for who they actually ARE, and only expects them to be a cardboard cut-out of gender expectations that they have been socialized with (unfortunately), it becomes a significant turn-off.

 

What a sad statement in today's society that my husband is "extremely progressive" for having the expectation that I can use my own brain, not rely on him to FEED ME, and be able to hold up some reliability at a job. I did it as a single mother too. No one fell apart and had 10,000 sick days. Jeepers.

And to think I just thought he was average in these views until seeing so much of this old-fashioned, half-baked misogyny. Thanks internet for showing me how men REALLY feel.

 

I am a walking womb with a timebomb attached. When the alarm goes off, I plop out another kid and should be on the other side of the "Restricted (WORK) Zone" because SOME men can't figure out that I can WORK at WORK and take care of my kids AT HOME. Confusing! Can't do more than one thing in my life! Oh noes! How do men like this "Dad?" Do they tell their wives "I can't DAD, I have a JOB! That creature came out of YOU! It's yours! Get it away! Don't let it get a diaper near me, I have a performance review next week! The boss will smell it on me, he will know I can't work if I take care of Little Timmy!"

[Gloria25]

You've never met a woman who swoons when her husband cooks, and/or does the washing up? I have.

 

Women who want Beta males do exist, they're the "exception" - not the rule. Usually they want a weaker man that they can manipulate and control.

[Woggle]

You've never met a woman who swoons when her husband cooks, and/or does the washing up? I have.

 

They do at first but the marriages I see lasting are the ones where the man has pretty much ignored what society has tried to turn men into the past couples of decades. The ones who said no and kept being a masculine man are the ones who are doing well. The ones who followed what society says the new man should be and then had it blow up in their face are the ones who are disillusioned. This is not to say that men shouldn't cook, clean and do all that stuff because that is a simple part of being an adult but have some self respect and pride. Don't be some puppy desperate to please the queen. That is what a lot of married men today are like and it only inspires contempt in women. The independent and strong women actually tend to be drawn to men who can out alpha them. I have seen it in action.

[dreamingoftigers]

I don't know about being biologically designed to be happy in marriage, because what model of marriage? My own marriage doesn't reflect much of what I've read on this thread, or even the model suggested by research (which I know is a common model). My life would be easier without kids, sure, but it would not be easier without my husband. We help each other. That should be the model for marriage, imo, but sadly it doesn't seem to be the case. I do think that many people (men and women), as social creatures, are biologically designed to enjoy interdependent and supportive relationships. It's good for survival.

 

I agree with the conclusion that women are generally more content single than men are, possibly due to a richer social support system, and possibly due to lower testosterone/sexual need. And yes, that means that women are content to stay single rather than dating a man who doesn't excite her. Can anyone blame her?

 

xxoo,

 

I know my marriage has gone through significant strain over the years and rebounded nicely.

 

But my marriage now sounds more like yours.

 

I think a key component is adaptability.

 

I think so many people in today's society lack adaptability and the way that young men have been historically socialized to hit some artificial expectation of "manhood" and etc. has really done them no favors.

 

Do you see a lot of role-rigidity as causing a lot of strife for both men and women these days as well?

 

I think that relationships require A LOT of adaptability to survive. Because people are complex in general, and don't fit into all of the "perfect little boxes" under the traditional or modern systems.

 

What kind of decent partner, hoping to attract someone, says things like "if you expect me to get with you, accept this 'biological limit' regardless of what your heart goes to or what you want to try with your life."

 

I can't imagine telling a partner, "No, you can't cook. That's "my job" not "your job." I don't want you to learn it. I don't want you to do it. It isn't "manly," it isn't "normal."

 

Do these thoughts even sound healthy?

 

I don't get how any human being gets to impose these belief systems on one another any more than imposing a religion or a slave-like situation on someone.

 

When you have a partner, isn't it more about "oh hey, you want to give that a try, eh? Let's see what we have in resources to do that. One life to live and who doesn't want a partner interested in bettering themselves or making a change?"

 

Like XXOO, I think if your husband came home one day and said, "you know I saw this documentary on Fashion Design, and I know it sounds kinda weird, but I want to see if I can sew a purse." Your eyes might widen a bit, but I doubt you'd be in a shouting match or try to underhandedly sabotage his handbag design, right?

 

Three years ago, I started collecting scrap metal in my garage and sorting it etc. as a hobby with a small return. No one looked at me like I had three heads when I would take apart a fax machine for components. No one freaked out about "the space" or "the unfemaleness" of it all. In fact, my husband found about $100 of aluminum while he was out one day and brought it back for me. Should I be worried?

 

Why would I, or any woman, want to be with a partner that shuts down her dreams and ambitions?

[GoodOnPaper]

But my "controversial" take-away remains this: women are not experiencing some dire catastrophic state of mind from the new dating scene. In fact, the opposite seems to be true. The single lot of us are doing pretty well, thank you. So men interested in dating women, hooking up with women, or potentially having a relationship with women could want to take this into account, step up their game and bring something to the table.

.

 

What exactly does "bring something to the table" even mean? Education/career/financial ambition means nothing, fine. "Nice" doesn't count for anything - that's been repeated on LS thousands of times over. Genuine kindness and sensitivity is interpreted as weakness far more often than not. Responsible is interpreted as "boring". "Intelligence" is considered to be completely subjective. There isn't much left except what meets the eye at the moment of meeting - looks, abs, and pick-up charm.

 

Players are going to thrive more than ever. Among men, the gap between the haves and have-nots will continually get wider - the 80/20 myth will become less mythical. I suppose the rest of us regular guys may continue to play the settle-down-with-whomever-will-take-us game because of our high testosterone but I can't imagine that the next generation is going to see that as a particularly attractive option. I would venture to guess that as time goes by, more countries will find themselves in Japan's situation. The only way for a regular guy to exercise any personal power will be to bow out of the game altogether.

[Gloria25]

There are many studies that show that people with children are less happy than people who remain child free.

 

Still, some people have the personality for being parents and others do not.

 

For those who do not have a parenting personality, in case they are unaware of it, there is something called birth control.

 

Perhaps it is a novel concept to some. Still, it is available.

 

But I think Gloria25s point is to know theyself. People should do some introspection prior to marriage. They should find out if they are compatible and that includes wanting to raise children as well as what type or marriage they want.

 

Do they want to be a working career couple or a working dad and stay at home full time mom type of family.

 

I am not talking about simply succumbing to the parent trap thing because society says, well, your 35 and now it's time to reproduce.

 

I am saying people by now, in the 21st century, should be evolved enough to rise above their primitive urge and ask themselves what it is exactly they want from life.

 

Thank you! ! I

 

Too many "modern" women out there who lothe nurturing, but wanna pop out a kid and put a ring on their finger so society can worship them and/or a husband and a kid is just another "accessory" or "thing on a list of things to do" in her life.

 

I know what it takes to be a mother and a wife. Do I really want it? No. I like getting up, coming/going when I want. I'm not sharing my assets with no guy. At least I'm honest about me and who I am.

[Kamille]

What exactly does "bring something to the table" even mean? Education/career/financial ambition means nothing, fine. "Nice" doesn't count for anything - that's been repeated on LS thousands of times over. Genuine kindness and sensitivity is interpreted as weakness far more often than not. Responsible is interpreted as "boring". "Intelligence" is considered to be completely subjective. There isn't much left except what meets the eye at the moment of meeting - looks, abs, and pick-up charm.

 

Players are going to thrive more than ever. Among men, the gap between the haves and have-nots will continually get wider - the 80/20 myth will become less mythical. I suppose the rest of us regular guys may continue to play the settle-down-with-whomever-will-take-us game because of our high testosterone but I can't imagine that the next generation is going to see that as a particularly attractive option. I would venture to guess that as time goes by, more countries will find themselves in Japan's situation. The only way for a regular guy to exercise any personal power will be to bow out of the game altogether.

 

I've read countless thread on here where men describe themselves as being nice yet as also having asocial hobbies, no friends, living with parents etc. These men often sound angry at woman for the fact that (as studies show) women do not desperately need to settle for the first self-proclaimed nice guy who sends them a message on OLD.

 

If I had to give advice to such guys I would start with: become an interesting person, the kind of interesting person you would want to hang out with. Make friends. MAKE FRIENDS! Learn to relate to other human beings. Learn to be funny and charming. Do so not to land a woman, but to become a happier, more balanced human being.

[dreamingoftigers]

They do at first but the marriages I see lasting are the ones where the man has pretty much ignored what society has tried to turn men into the past couples of decades. The ones who said no and kept being a masculine man are the ones who are doing well. The ones who followed what society says the new man should be and then had it blow up in their face are the ones who are disillusioned. This is not to say that men shouldn't cook, clean and do all that stuff because that is a simple part of being an adult but have some self respect and pride. Don't be some puppy desperate to please the queen. That is what a lot of married men today are like and it only inspires contempt in women. The independent and strong women actually tend to be drawn to men who can out alpha them. I have seen it in action.

 

I notice the "please them at all expense" attitude doesn't work well for men or women.

 

I don't say that lightly.

 

My mother was a pleaser and it only seems to promote being stepped on.

 

I don't blame pleasers for being stepped on, abusers that abuse are at fault for their own actions.

 

It seems that "masculinity/femininity" are simply the chosen labels to hide behind to either be a doormat or abuse. There are some correlations, but overall I think it has to do with self-respect.

 

You can be a respectful, traditional guy. You can be an abusive traditional guy.

You can even be a doormat traditional guy by providing and doing the traditional stuff, but still taking a bunch of crap from a wife that you aren't "good enough" blah blah.

 

Same with "non-traditional" guys.

 

My husband is non-traditional. But I wouldn't dare disrespect him because of it. In fact, I have naturally more respect for him speaking out and trying to form SAHD-type networks in the community. His best friend has been a SAHD for awhile as well and it is a challenge for them because so much of the parenting stuff / activities is all "Mommy and Me" type stuff.

 

When really, the demographics have shifted enough to have more involved Dads with kids, but it seems the networking framework isn't set up very well for men.

 

I think what you are seeing, is that the Stay at Home position, where someone relies on another financially etc. is a position that places one in a vulnerable circumstance, more likely to be abused or abandoned. A big part of why women fought to join the workplace. And still fight for equality within the workplace. (So glad I fought for my raise last year. I ended up with a 16% raise because I figured out my actual worth to the company and went after it, HARD. I figured if they fired me for my ambition and insistence, that they weren't worth working for anyway.)

 

I suspect the men that you saw who "ignored convention" and retained their identities are successful in their relationships because they did just that - remained authentic to themselves instead of trying to become a doormat at all costs.

 

If the shift in society had gone the other way.... let's just say men started off being socialized to be more SAHD and then society said "oh hey, become 'manly men'" these are the same guys who probably would have said "I like who I am, society can suck it."I think that is MORE the defining factor than whether they cook / clean or not.

[salparadise]

And thing is, people wanna ignore biology and think it's ok for a guy to be running around in an apron cooking, cleaning, and watching the kids - but biology sneaks up on us and women start disrespecting those same men they demand split the chores "she" had 50/50.

 

Biology has us women desiring men who are smarter, stronger, better than us - who can provide/protect us. Keep on thinking you can talk/think your way out of those roles, then scratch your head when you're not feeling horny for him anymore and/or he cheats on you and/or divorce happens.

 

Women who want Beta males do exist, they're the "exception" - not the rule. Usually they want a weaker man that they can manipulate and control.

 

You make some valid points about biological predispositions, but you seem to see the manifestation as black and white. It certainly doesn't have to be. I do think people should be intentional about it. I don't think doing one's share of the housework makes a man beta any more than earning a decent paycheck or mowing the lawn makes a woman butch. I see cooking as completely gender neutral. My girlfriend and I view our loosely defined gender roles as a significant compatibility enhancement. She says she loves that I am both manly and sensitive at the same time, and I love that she is both feminine and highly competent at the same time. Of course there are ways to lose respect, and gender preferences still exist in important ways, but it's not defined by stereotypes of the previous millennia.

[dreamingoftigers]

Thank you! ! I

 

Too many "modern" women out there who lothe nurturing, but wanna pop out a kid and put a ring on their finger so society can worship them and/or a husband and a kid is just another "accessory" or "thing on a list of things to do" in her life.

 

I know what it takes to be a mother and a wife. Do I really want it? No. I like getting up, coming/going when I want. I'm not sharing my assets with no guy. At least I'm honest about me and who I am.

 

Mental note: bug husband for a ring. Keep forgetting about that and it's been 11 years. We had the financial choice between the ring and the extended honeymoon. I figured we had one chance at the extended honeymoon and years to get the ring.

 

Damn, he just isn't "accessorizing me" enough. Time to have another kid. Oh wait, just had one. Damn.

[thefooloftheyear]

You've never met a woman who swoons when her husband cooks, and/or does the washing up? I have.

 

 

Nah.....

 

But Ive seen women do a hell of a lot more than swoon over other attributes in a man that have absolutely nothing to do with cleaning or cooking....

 

TFY

[Woggle]

I notice the "please them at all expense" attitude doesn't work well for men or women.

 

I don't say that lightly.

 

My mother was a pleaser and it only seems to promote being stepped on.

 

I don't blame pleasers for being stepped on, abusers that abuse are at fault for their own actions.

 

It seems that "masculinity/femininity" are simply the chosen labels to hide behind to either be a doormat or abuse. There are some correlations, but overall I think it has to do with self-respect.

 

You can be a respectful, traditional guy. You can be an abusive traditional guy.

You can even be a doormat traditional guy by providing and doing the traditional stuff, but still taking a bunch of crap from a wife that you aren't "good enough" blah blah.

 

Same with "non-traditional" guys.

 

My husband is non-traditional. But I wouldn't dare disrespect him because of it. In fact, I have naturally more respect for him speaking out and trying to form SAHD-type networks in the community. His best friend has been a SAHD for awhile as well and it is a challenge for them because so much of the parenting stuff / activities is all "Mommy and Me" type stuff.

 

When really, the demographics have shifted enough to have more involved Dads with kids, but it seems the networking framework isn't set up very well for men.

 

I think what you are seeing, is that the Stay at Home position, where someone relies on another financially etc. is a position that places one in a vulnerable circumstance, more likely to be abused or abandoned. A big part of why women fought to join the workplace. And still fight for equality within the workplace. (So glad I fought for my raise last year. I ended up with a 16% raise because I figured out my actual worth to the company and went after it, HARD. I figured if they fired me for my ambition and insistence, that they weren't worth working for anyway.)

 

I suspect the men that you saw who "ignored convention" and retained their identities are successful in their relationships because they did just that - remained authentic to themselves instead of trying to become a doormat at all costs.

 

If the shift in society had gone the other way.... let's just say men started off being socialized to be more SAHD and then society said "oh hey, become 'manly men'" these are the same guys who probably would have said "I like who I am, society can suck it."I think that is MORE the defining factor than whether they cook / clean or not.

 

This is true but I think that a lot of men these days are so confused that we just follow what society says women want even though that seems to change every week. We get so many conflicting messages that we don't know whether we are coming or going anymore. The men who just stayed who they are and told women take it or leave it are the ones who do better.