Curious about this sentiment . . .[there is no excuse for cheating]

[thecharade]

He said to me, "And she deserves that why? This is what she gets."

 

I had no answer that sounded real, instead of sounding like a Psych 101 course.

[Phoenician]

Interesting responses. I enjoyed reading them, thanks.

 

I have a friend with a cold wife. (They both have issues, no doubt.) I have met her many times, and she is not a warm person. Wife refuses MC, not interested. He went alone but grew frustrated. He refuses to get a divorce. Says he is willing to work on things, so he is NOT going to lose 50% or more of his time with his kids just because his W has checked out and is 'messed up'. He says his wife offers "I lie there and look at the clock" sex. Only. She says she is happy like this. He is miserable! But he does not want to be 'punished' with divorce.

 

He is on the prowl for an A. No takers yet. I do not know what to say to him.

He is not justified? At all?

 

what would happen if they agree on open marriage ?

 

will this make the affair blessed?

[Gloria25]

He said to me, "And she deserves that why? This is what she gets."

 

I had no answer that sounded real, instead of sounding like a Psych 101 course.

 

Look, my FWB, if what he said was true, claims wife was abused by an alcoholic dad and had issues with sex. She refused counseling and/or obgyn. She'd say she had an infection and he'd offer to go to the doctor with her and she refused.

 

She used to berate him about him, his career, etc.

 

He felt bad in just dumping her cuz in his mind she was "mentally ill", needed help... essentially she guilt tripped him with the whole "In sickness and in health".

 

But without sex, he began to drink a lot and was becoming hostile. He was miserable out of his mind...so, he thought he could cheat and get his needs met while not abandoning her.

 

Justified?

 

You tell me what is crueler? What she did or he did. She lied too. She withheld sex and affection and refused medical attention.

 

Guys are "fixers". They also want to "provide and protect" women by their nature/biology. So, to expect them to sit around and walk away from a marriage without trying isn't gonna happen, so they think they can juggle cheating while they protect the family and/or their reputation. Cuz divorce also sorta means you're a failure and while their marriage ain't perfect, they still look forward to coming "home"...not like a single guy who comes to a quiet apt with microwave food for dinner and TV.

 

But really, I agree that divorce was better than cheating. Especially in his situation. You can't stay in a bad situation for eternity. And, if you gave the other person chances to change and they don't want to, then how long are you going to beat a dead horse? Accept the situation and stop complaining or divorce.

 

If divorce is hard and/or impossible due to money or whatever, then you accept the situation "as is", get hobbies, and masturbate a lot. When the kids are 18, you're free from your jail sentence.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Gloria25

[Gloria25]

I don't know, I sometimes am on the fence here. After my recent neighbor situation and maybe cuz I'm older, I believe that it's better not to cheat.

 

Why?

 

Cuz IMO, these guys aren't "trapped". I saw my neighbor warp speed himself into this marriage and kid. It upsets me that he put a baby in her knowing he was into other women. To me that is/was selfish and irresponsible. So, if he's unsatisfied in his marriage, he has NO right to cheat. He needs to serve his 18 year sentence and stop nagging his wife to change. If I were her, I'd be pissed too cuz he can't try to change her now, for that he shouldn't have married her in the first place.

 

Same with my FWB. No kids, no reason to stick with an abusive wife. After a decade, what more did he think was gnna change about her?

 

So, I guess I am leaning more towards cheating not being justified...cuz when you look deeper, no one is "trapped", they well knew what they were marrying, and once the kids are up and gone, they can still be free to meet someone else...and if they can't wait till the kids are 18, you can sorta pull off co-parenting.

[Gloria25]

what would happen if they agree on open marriage ?

 

will this make the affair blessed?

 

Well, I don't consider those "marriages" and get tired of people say that open marriages, swinging, poly, etc makes their marriage "stronger"....yeah right, of course I'm gonna stay with someone who allowed me to play and come back to "home base" when I feel like it.

 

Look, even in open marriage and/or marriages where the spouse(es) look the other way, it still can end up ugly.

 

On ID there was this couple....both sheriffs and were the bomb...husband and wife wer hotties. Lots of ego between them. Both cheated, but had "rules" (ie no dating coworkers)

 

Well, one day jealousy got the best of them and rules went out of the window. One OM killed the husband. Wifey broken the "rule" and was messing with a married co-worker sheriff who was also a top dude and egos clashed and he killed MM. Wifey messed with co-worker cuz she got jealous of some chick hubby was messing with.

[AlwaysGrowing]

He said to me, "And she deserves that why? This is what she gets."

 

I had no answer that sounded real, instead of sounding like a Psych 101 course.

 

 

It is not about the price he thinks he will be making her pay.......it is about the price of self respect, integrity that it will cost him.

 

 

How does a man stand before his children and say he cheated on their mother? Or before his own parents? How many could hold the eye lock of those loved ones?

 

There is a cost to self.

 

Some....rationalize their choice....to keep a positive internal view of self. They never get to a place of accepting responsibility, and real internal change will never happen. They are the ones who point to others when they get caught doing wrong. Basically admitting that they have zero control over their emotions/actions. That your wrongs are owned by you....and their wrongs are owned by you. Hardly partner material.

[thecharade]

Yes, I agree with so many things. I do not think that cheating is ever a HEALTHY option. But if someone is already dealing with an unhealthy situation? I guess that's where my original question comes from.

 

Divorce comes with a price that people often do not want to pay or feel they should not HAVE TO pay. In other words, "I am willing to do the work and you are not, so I am now 'justified' in cheating "

 

I am not saying it is good, but I cannot say I think it is worse than the unhealthy the spouse threw in to the situation in the first place. And here is where I start to feel that other types of unhealthy are just as poisonous as cheating. But that's just me.

[2.50 a gallon]

I had a FWB relationship with a co-worker for about a year, where we got together once or twice a month. I met her husband more than once. He was a total jerk, his view of family life, was she was his kids nanny and time off from work was for golf. They had sex once or twice a week for him to get his jollies. Never nothing for her. She had reached a point where she was super depressed and hated her husband.

So why not divorce?

She had two boys, they lived in a very upscale neighborhood, where the boys had great friends, and loved their schools.

To divorce would have meant they would have had to move out and into a different school district, read bad neighborhood.

Another older co-worker had been in a similar situation, divorced, moved the kids, who had been on the honor roll to a new school, where they made new friends, which led to drugs. Neither of them graduated from high school. Her boy had ODed and the girl had gone thru several rehabs but was still living on the street.

Once we started having sex, her attitude became more upbeat, she once more enjoyed life.

When we went our separate ways she only had 8 more years to go

[beatcuff]

these guys aren't "trapped". I saw my neighbor warp speed himself into this marriage and kid.

 

and there it is, you are 100% correct. too many 'rush' into marriage before the 'vetting' process is even started: no discussion of money, no discussion of how to raise children, no discussion of their vision of the future, and not even a discussion of the baggage they bring.

 

even better you eliminated your friends that voiced their concern. a/k/a love will get us there... guess not.

 

i am not against A, but in this case: OP why did your 'friend' not realize what she was? hint: you can't win: either he ignored it or didn't court her long enough to figure it out. then made matters worse by having a child. you marry for better or WORSE not until it is convenient. either fix it or let her go.

 

that means going to MC by yourself. then at some point invite the W for a 'one-time' only meeting. you may find her going more often after that: it may take sometime: one time, then again a couple of weeks later, then once a month, then...

 

BTW i love how the OP is 'framing the pitch' (went from a general question to VERY specific), anyone else thinking his 'friend' is him.

[Quiet Storm]

Interesting responses. I enjoyed reading them, thanks.

 

I have a friend with a cold wife. (They both have issues, no doubt.) I have met her many times, and she is not a warm person. Wife refuses MC, not interested. He went alone but grew frustrated. He refuses to get a divorce. Says he is willing to work on things, so he is NOT going to lose 50% or more of his time with his kids just because his W has checked out and is 'messed up'. He says his wife offers "I lie there and look at the clock" sex. Only. She says she is happy like this. He is miserable! But he does not want to be 'punished' with divorce.

 

He is on the prowl for an A. No takers yet. I do not know what to say to him.

He is not justified? At all?

 

Tell him this

 

If he cares about his kids enough to not give up half his time with them, he should consider how they would feel, and how their opinion of him could change, if he had an affair.

 

The kids love their mom and don't care that she's not into sex with their dad. To know he's sneaking around, lying and putting their family at risk goes against everything a kid believes about their dad. Kids see their dad as the protector of the family, and an affair threatens the environment that is best for them- a stable and intact family. A kid's home is their anchor.

 

He is their male role model. Not only their protector, but their teacher. I'm sure he tells them not to lie or be sneaky. When parents get caught in affairs, kids lose a lot of respect for them.

 

Kids are smart and with today's technology, it's much easier for them to discover their parents affair. Even little kids are perceptive, curious and smarter than people give them credit for.

[gettingstronger]

Short of murder, yep its the worst option-

 

You can point out horror stories about divorce and as an educator, I agree some are very difficult but at the same time, many are not- it depends on how they are handled- and always a better option than cheating-

[thecharade]

I am a woman, a divorced one. My friend really is my good friend; I have known him for 28 years. I really am watching him "shop" for an A, and I have mixed feelings about his situation and kind of waffle a little in my advice. That is why I asked.

[preraph]

The idea is you have enough backbone to leave a bad relationship before starting another one. Not wait until someone replaces them. If you don't develop enough strength to walk away and learn what you can from the failure, then in what way are you qualified to get into another relationship?

[Ladyjane14]

Yes, I agree with so many things. I do not think that cheating is ever a HEALTHY option. But if someone is already dealing with an unhealthy situation? I guess that's where my original question comes from.

 

Divorce comes with a price that people often do not want to pay or feel they should not HAVE TO pay. In other words, "I am willing to do the work and you are not, so I am now 'justified' in cheating "

 

I am not saying it is good, but I cannot say I think it is worse than the unhealthy the spouse threw in to the situation in the first place. And here is where I start to feel that other types of unhealthy are just as poisonous as cheating. But that's just me.

 

Of course it's worse. Cheating doesn't actually FIX anything. It just slaps a band-aid on the injury while the infection continues to boil underneath. Meanwhile, you lose years of your life and because you haven't repaired the connection with your primary partner, you're either unloved or dumped in what were supposed to be your golden years.

 

The guy could either repair or get out now, and actually have built a life by then.

[carhill]

I continually read everywhere that no matter what was happening in the M, no matter how awful the BS was, there is no excuse for cheating. Is that correct?

Assign that methodology for anything in a marriage. Pick an action and attempt to assign reasons and see how it plays out. No matter how awful the M is, there's no excuse for (insert action here). Essentially, each behavior exists in a vacuum and cannot be correlated.

 

So, is the assumption then that infidelity trumps all other hurts, abuses, misbehavior, and betrayals in an M? There is never even an abusive or painful marital 'tie'????

 

Yep, that appears to be the consensus.

 

 

Except if one is a politician. Then it's OK.

[wmacbride]

I

 

beg

 

your

 

pardon

 

??!!??

 

I'm so sorry for the pain you have endured as a result of your husband's cheating.

 

But please do be careful. Think before you type please.

Words carry immense power.

 

Have you every seen a woman physically abused, kicked, punched, hit by her husband? ON A DAILY BASIS? Do you have the slightest idea about what physical and verbal abuse by a spouse can do to a woman for the rest of her life?

 

I'm gong to guess NO.

 

Why is it up to anyone else to tell someone how they feel? It's very possible that the poster has experienced physical abuse, and she is expressing her thoughts.

[wmacbride]

That's very interesting John. I am sure there are people who feel as you do, too. And, that is okay.

 

For my part, If I was the one refusing counseling, I would prefer my wife had a revenge affair, rather than simply coming home one day and handing me divorce papers.

 

But everyone is different.

 

I am simply offering varying perspectives.

 

 

I wonder if you would feel differently if she came home and said " honey, I slept with someone because I wanted to get back at you for cheating on me", or, even worse, if you happened to come across communication between her and some other guy.

[dreamingoftigers]

Why is it up to anyone else to tell someone how they feel? It's very possible that the poster has experienced physical abuse, and she is expressing her thoughts.

 

I grew up with extensive physical abuse.

 

I would have fared better with the psychological, emotional etc impact from physical abuse than I did from my husband's cheating.

 

In fact, when he drank there were moments of physical altercations. TBH, it doesn't bother me at all now that he's sober, and part of the reason he sobered up is he saw the next day a pair of bruises he gave me the night before. And wondered why his scalp hurt. Because right after the bruises, I pulled him by the hair onto the ground so he would stop being aggressive with me. The confrontation ended there. I guess part of why I don't have as much of an issue with my husband having been physical with me vs. Having cheated on me is that I'm not scared of him physically and I doubt he would go there again. As for cheating, who really knows? I never thought he would cheat and he did, it completely blindsided me.

 

FWIW YMMV.

[Giggle]

It's always interesting reading how people differ. My ws did both. I preferred the affair. Him all of a sudden saying he was done being married was totally devastating and I couldn't understand why our life meant so little, that our 8 years to together, our 3 kids plus me being freshly pregnant. Totally blew my world apart how I was going to provide for these kids. Who was ever going to want a mother of 4? The anxiety attack surrounding how I was going to live... And I'd been a stay at home, so I was being forced to stop being their mom full time? I resented like hell that he was taking that away from them.

 

The affair I found out about 2 months before was nothing so much in comparison. It whopped me for a few but I could understand how it could happen... I had seen the same distance in our marriage and who was to say I would have been strong enough not to fall off that edge had it been me experiencing the high chemistry. But he was mine and we'd be ok, just needed to change stuff.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Giggle

[wmacbride]

I grew up with extensive physical abuse.

 

I would have fared better with the psychological, emotional etc impact from physical abuse than I did from my husband's cheating.

 

In fact, when he drank there were moments of physical altercations. TBH, it doesn't bother me at all now that he's sober, and part of the reason he sobered up is he saw the next day a pair of bruises he gave me the night before. And wondered why his scalp hurt. Because right after the bruises, I pulled him by the hair onto the ground so he would stop being aggressive with me. The confrontation ended there. I guess part of why I don't have as much of an issue with my husband having been physical with me vs. Having cheated on me is that I'm not scared of him physically and I doubt he would go there again. As for cheating, who really knows? I never thought he would cheat and he did, it completely blindsided me.

 

FWIW YMMV.

 

 

I was in a similar situation in a previous relationship. All was going well until, one day when I did something small that set him of, and I got slapped in the face and punched in the stomach.

 

He also cheated.

 

The cheating was worse.

[Lady2163]

I continually read everywhere that no matter what was happening in the M, no matter how awful the BS was, there is no excuse for cheating. Is that correct?

 

So, is the assumption then that infidelity trumps all other hurts, abuses, misbehavior, and betrayals in an M? There is never even an abusive or painful marital 'tie'????

 

I think people get hung up on semantics. Is it ever truly justified to break any of the marriage vows? No, probably not. But some things are more abstract than cheating. Cheating is pretty concrete. You've had some form of physical contact that you know your spouse would not approve of under any circumstances.

 

Let's take the following words/phrases:

Love

Honor

Cherish

For better or for worse

Forsaking all others

 

My exH did not cherish me. Not even a little bit. He repeatedly spent more money than we had, was an intentional slob, left the toilet seat up when I was horribly ill and having severe stomach distress (I had a bug for about six months after I got home from the Persian Gulf). He constantly sabotaged all my efforts to get us back on track.

 

Yet, people would roll their eyes if I said I was divorcing him because he spent our last $15.00 at Taco Bell for food for himself. If I said I divorced him because he left the toilet seat up, no minister of counselor in the world would encourage that action.

 

Cheating is easily defined. Honor and cherish, not so much. He probably felt like he was showing me great honor because he was so willing to share his ones with me, two strokes at a time, whenever he wanted. I mean, that's a heck of a great gift, isn't it?

 

Now, my exH didn't cheat and neither did I when I was married. About 8 months after my divorce I was in a relationship with someone who was oh-so-subtly abusive and neglectful. He did cheat. It took me longer to get over the verbal mistreatment of that one year relationship than all the 1000 little cuts my exH bestowed on me.

 

What is the justification for a wife or husband to refuse sex with their spouse for many years? Assuming there isn't illness. I've had friends who invoke the "for better or for worse" clause and laugh because they think their husbands just have to suck it up, because this is the "worse" part. Okay, maybe not real friends, since that makes me want to vomit a little bit.

 

Why treat someone that way? When is it ever justified?

 

I don't think cheating is the worst you can do in a marriage. Finding out your spouse is a serial murder ( with or without rape/cheating), a terrorist or a child abuser would definitely be worse - in my opinion. I've said this before, I'm sure Gary Ridgway's wife wishes he had JUST been cheating with those women.

 

Is it justified to be rude to a waiter or waitress because you're drunk or because you can?

 

Justified is the word I think people hang on a lot worth on. I could get into a long boring monologue about the etymology of the word, but I'm almost out of time.

 

I don't know that it is ever right to have an affair. I did have people tell me it made their marriage better because they had someone who desired them, gave them sex, was happy and friendly to them. These are all people without a Dday and who had unhappy marriages.

 

Sorry- have to go - hate not,finishing that thought

[minimariah]

He is not justified? At all?

 

no, he isn't.

 

two VERY different things ---

1. problems in the marriage that created cracks which made the affair possible & 2. the affair; the act of adultery.

 

the first thing is usually on both spouses - if the marriage was troubled prior to the affair; both spouses contributed to the marriage being vulnerable BUT the second thing is ENTIRELY on the adulterer.

 

in your situation - let's assume that the BS really is this cold, unhappy wife and that her husband (your friend) is suffering. we can definitely blame the poor state of the marriage on the BS; but we cannot blame the affair on the BS... because the WS had a choice - so how can the BS be guilty that he decided to cheat rather than divorce?

 

an affair has its reasons, for sure - but those reasons... the answers to all the WHYs someone did what they did... in no way make the affair justified. they can only explain the motivation behind the affair; affairs usually do not happen in the vacuum.

 

I am not saying it is good, but I cannot say I think it is worse than the unhealthy the spouse threw in to the situation in the first place.

 

it's not a competition though. doesn't really matter who did the worse thing; what his wife did or didn't do still won't make his affair somehow better.

 

many folks cheat because, at that point, they feel like that's their only option. they know it's wrong but they made a decision and decided that it's the only solution to the situation: usually, the affair makes a horrible environment even worse. in the beginning, it almost always seems like a really good idea: so he'll stay married and spend time with the children, provide for the family while getting his needs met on the side and the wife won't find out so no one gets hurt. the wife is happy and the husband is happy.

 

the affair will most likely backfire in your friend's face: if the wife & the children find out... it's hard to bounce back. so he should think really hard about all of the risks he is willing to take.

[cocorico]

many folks cheat because, at that point, they feel like that's their only option. they know it's wrong but they made a decision and decided that it's the only solution to the situation

 

 

My question to the Op's friend would be: is he seeing the infidelity as a stop-gap solution to tide him over until leaving becomes possible, or is it something he sees as his ultimate solution to an intractable problem? If the latter, I'd caution against it - unless he has a solid game plan in place for all eventualities. If the former, it might work - provided he's clear about the boundaries. I know of several MP who have used an A to help them survive toxic Ms "until the kids were old enough" (or whatever temporary issue keeps them "trapped") and at that point have left the M.

[Ladyjane14]

Unless she's got him chained to a wall in the basement, he's not "trapped". He's just not willing to make uncomfortable choices.

[spouse2016]

A dear friend of mine was in an emotionally abusive marriage. She was worn down and had lost all self esteem. She met another man who respected her and treated her well and she quickly left the abusive husband. After a number of years, so also married the new guy.

 

I think that an affair is totally justifiable in this situation. I certainly didn't look down on her or the AP

 

These are pathetic excuses. She could quit the abusive marriage and then find whoever. Breach a relationship's integrity is not OK. Would you work for quietly for competitors of your present day employers?